Support NeoGAF

[Spiral Insanity]

So to summarize, the OP is wrong.

 

[ethomaz]

So to summarize, the OP is wrong.

Pretty much.

Spoiler

It is time to read more books

 

[Aselith]

Spoiler

It is time to read more books

Mayhap

 

[SolVanderlyn]

It's atrocious shlock and has been a problem with Square-Enix for some time. FFXII had it (to a lesser extent) and FFXIV has it too. Tons of unnatural sounding purple prose everywhere. Totally ruins the experience for me. I see it get a lot of praise too, which baffles me. Someone even told me once: "lol read a book." This nonsense would never make a good book.

Still your tongue is pretty cool though, that one flew by and worked.

 

[fvng]

So to summarize, the OP is wrong.

nah

It's atrocious shlock and has been a problem with Square-Enix for some time. FFXII had it (to a lesser extent) and FFXIV has it too. Tons of unnatural sounding purple prose everywhere. Totally ruins the experience for me. I see it get a lot of praise too, which baffles me. Someone even told me once: "lol read a book." This nonsense would never make a good book.

Still your tongue is pretty cool though, that one flew by and worked.

Yeah still your tongue is the one I have least issue with, totally agree with your post

This discussion was over when this was posted:


Also:

You've set a new low for petty.. It's weird that you held a grudge over my post, and sought out a thread I made to mirror what I said back to me...
I read books all the time, just finished Infinite Jest recently. Since you didn't bother going through the thread, not everyone is leaning on the side of the translation being without any faults.. nice try though.

The OG translation is just garbage. THere isn't single redeeming quality.

the redeeming quality is many critical lines of dialogue have more punch and impact, the classic delita line is a great example. (and yes I acknowledge that the translation can be a mess)

This is where you have a fundamental disagreement with myself and many others in this thread. Like, I don't think about "having to parse" any of those sentences. I'm delighted by how colorful and expressive they are. It literally gives me a pleasant feeling to read the stuff people have posted in here. I think to a certain degree WotL is a game written for English nerds, and if you don't have that kind of proclivity it's not going to speak to you.

Also that bit of nerdiness aside (it was really just an excuse to post that Beowulf reading), none of the lines you posted seems particularly egregious to me. "What news have you" in particularly is something I'm pretty sure I've heard used in other mediums before.

My examples were more funny than egregious offenses but I'll post a better example below, i should have taken more screenshots during my gameplay but I'm not done with the game, more will inevitably pop up.

So... You admit it's not difficult to understand the dialogue?

said it in my first post and following posts in my thread, it's not that most of the dialogue is always impossible to understand, it's just needlessly obtuse which destroys the flow of reading the dialogue.

I feel like this one of those instances where a claim of pretension is a stand in for a feeling of inadequacy.

nah, i didn't say that the game's translation was impossible to understand, it just slows down the pace of the reading because the flowerly language is heavy handed.... they go overboard with flowery language.

 

[HeeHo]

I like it. I feel like that's how the people of Ivalice would really talk. In fact, I think it makes it more of a joy to read that way and I didn't really notice anything that totally changed the context of the scene because of altered dialogue.

 

[Donniewahlberg]

So to summarize, the OP is wrong.

Nah, I think the thread has really just proven some people take to it, some don't, and really don't. I really like the localisation for the game but I think it's unfair to say he's wrong with people agreeing with him and it being so subjective. Better to just say we disagree with him.

I do really like that localisation though, I love the way they've handled Ivalice from game to game. In general the quality bar has stayed high, and t feels consistent game to game. Hus give us another haha

 

[fvng]

I like it. I feel like that's how the people of Ivalice would really talk. In fact, I think it makes it more of a joy to read that way and I didn't really notice anything that totally changed the context of the scene because of altered dialogue.

Which would be great if WOTL had FFXII's balance of comprehensible & elegant English

 

[kiaaa]

All of the Lucavi have heavier dialogue because they are literally ancient demons. Inexperience is the only reason you'd have trouble with the rest of the text.

edit - also, the picture you linked doesn't really make sense without context.

 

[Lothar]

So to summarize, the OP is wrong.

To sum up, anything that sounds Shakespearean no matter how shitty will get defenders saying it's good.

 

[Tye The Czar]

I misagree, OP.

At the very least, I find the prose entertaining.

 

[fvng]

this first sentence is a great example of the game doing a decent job of readability and flowery language... then the second sentence fucks up by requiring the player to stop what they're doing to parse what's being said. If you're suggesting this game is totally readable all the time, feel free to explain what the second sentence is going for here

 

[Skilletor]

To sum up, anything that sounds Shakespearean no matter how shitty will get defenders saying it's good.

I don't think it's particularly good. Serviceable, and without the nuance of FF12, Tactics Ogre, and Vagrant Story. But compared to the original, it may as well be Shakespeare.

this first sentence is a great example of the game doing a decent job of readability and flower language... then the second sentence fucks up by requiring the player to stop what they're doing to parse what's being said.

You keep saying stuff like this, but it only reflects on you as a reader.

 

[Durante]

"The Truth is not as honeyed as her words" Doesn't that make you want to groan out loud?

Nope, I like it.

Not everything has to be gritty and grounded in how people in our time (and reality for that matter!) would speak -- I can go for flowery and theatrical happily in a fantasy setting, especially when it's written like that.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

the redeeming quality is many critical lines of dialogue have more punch and impact, the classic delita line is a great example. (and yes I acknowledge that the translation can be a mess)

Exactly. The OG translation is a "bad translation" in that it is messy, but it is more direct and to the point.

said it in my first post and following posts in my thread, it's not that most of the dialogue is always impossible to understand, it's just needlessly obtuse which destroys the flow of reading the dialogue.


nah, i didn't say that the game's translation was impossible to understand, it just slows down the pace of the reading because the flowerly language is heavy handed.... they go overboard with flowery language.

this first sentence is a great example of the game doing a decent job of readability and flower language... then the second sentence requiring the player to stop what they're doing to parse what's being said

This is also spot on. It's not unreadable, it's not hard to read, it's just unpleasant to read. It doesn't sound natural at all. My undergrad major was English and I have a degree in literature, BTW, so it's not like I'm not used to Shakespeare and more artistic uses of the language. It just feels overly flowery and out of place in FFT. It's made more egregious by the fact that the original Japanese dialogue is pretty straightforward.

Although I do appreciate differing opinions, I think it was a huge misstep to take such a boldly different direction from the original script.

 

[Pitch Black Flint]

While both versions of the translation are terrible, I will agree that the War of the Lions one just comes off as pretentious. So I definitely prefer the rough, rushed localization of the PSOne game to the new one.

I know the WotL script was inspired by Vagrant Story's translation, but even though that game used some odd phrasing, the dialogue was always to the point. I never had a problem with that one. Dialogue in WotL seems to circle around it's self for no reason other than establishing some kind of fantastical medieval aesthetic. Which is just embarrassing to read.

It all seemed to be part of a downward trend in SquareEnix localization efforts for a while, where the team was just trying way too hard to dress up the language to match the fantasy settings of the games. They don't need it. Final Fantasy XV has some of the most plainspoken dialogue in the series, and it doesn't suffer for it. In fact, I think it's some of the best work the series has ever had. Hopefully, this new trend continues.

 

[RRockman]

Oh wow! How did I miss this game! Love me some semi old English. I must disagree with your post OP.

 

[Poodlestrike]

It's theatrical, but not overly flowery. Not difficult to parse at all. I haven't played it, so maybe it grates after a while, but I like the snippets seen here.

 

[BriGuy]

They speak like this in Vagrant Story and FFXII too. I like to assume Ivalice is just inhabited by assholes. And I don't mean that in a bad way necessarily. More like you have regular Final Fantasy land with people speaking in contemporary dialects, and next door you have Ivalice. And the people in regular Final Fantasy land roll their eyes and go "oh man, not these assholes again" when they have to interact with people from Ivalice. It's kind of endearing.

 

[Skilletor]

Although I do appreciate differing opinions, I think it was a huge misstep to take such a boldly different direction from the original script.

Fits better within the other games of Ivalice, though.

Even if it's not perfect.

 

[MechaX]

.

The problem with this example is that it completely ignores the entire context in which this line is being said, especially since this is literally in the middle of a conversation.

Zalera is taunting Meliadoul about her father. The second sentence is exactly referring to the fact that her father is not her father any longer, but merely a Lucavi pawn at this point.

With that actual context (which is set up by the last two or three lines of dialogue that you omitted for the sake of making this argument), the sentence actually doesn't (or at least shouldn't) require you to stop and think about this.

 

[fvng]

You keep saying stuff like this, but it only reflects on you as a reader.

Not really, I read books often, but you're making it seem like my backlog of books should all have been written in the 1700 or 1800s.... you're acting like reading Shakespeare will instantly make this readable to the point where sentences only need to be read once, not several times.. If you don't see how this stunts storytelling by destroying the flow of dialogue, you're lying to yourself.

You can have a nice balance of older english while preserving the readability of the dialogue.

Fits better within the other games of Ivalice, though.

Even if it's not perfect.

No the language is not as good as other Ivalice games because XII had the best balance of un-obtuse language and beautiful English.

 

[kiaaa]

Exactly. The OG translation is a "bad translation" in that it is messy, but it is more direct and to the point.


This is also spot on. It's not unreadable, it's not hard to read, it's just unpleasant to read. It doesn't sound natural at all. My undergrad major was English and I have a degree in literature, BTW, so it's not like I'm not used to Shakespeare and more artistic uses of the language. It just feels overly flowery and out of place in FFT. It's made more egregious by the fact that the original Japanese dialogue is pretty straightforward.

Although I do appreciate differing opinions, I think it was a huge misstep to take such a boldly different direction from the original script.

I don't think an ancient demon would sound natural in any setting. The second sentence also requires context or it makes no sense.

Also, have you ever considered that the original Japanese translation may not actually be that interesting?

Not really, I read books often, but you're making it seem like my backlog of books should all have been written in the 1700 or 1800s.... you're acting like reading Shakespeare or Dickens will instantly make this readable to the point where sentences only need to be read once, not several times.. If you don't see how this stunts storytelling by destroying the flow of dialogue, you're lying to yourself.

It's just that most people who have an interest in literature often run into older theatre at some point or another (usually high school) and can read through this pretty easily.

 

[Zaventem]

So what exactly is the problem here?

 

[Darkstorne]

Pretty much.

Spoiler

It is time to read more books

Unless English isn't his first language, yep, the readability problem has nothing to do with the game's translation and prose. Vagrant Story's dialogue (pretty much identical to this, being an Ivalice-ish game) is one of the main reasons I consider it my favourite game of all time.

"Warping the minds of men and shepherding the masses has always been your church's domain. You lure sheep with empty miracles and a dead god."

HNNNNGG.

 

[Skilletor]

Not really, I read books often, but you're making it seem like my backlog of books should all have been written in the 1700 or 1800s.... you're acting like reading Shakespeare will instantly make this readable to the point where sentences only need to be read once, not several times.. If you don't see how this stunts storytelling by destroying the flow of dialogue, you're lying to yourself.

You can have a nice balance of older english while preserving the readability of the dialogue.

This isn't Shakespearean.

It's closer to Game of Thrones.

 

[Mandoric]

I'm more a fan of the craft than the results, for both the Ivalice and especially the MMO projects; it's a sort of Kodachrome degree of melodramatic color that, while executed far better than either DW-style attempts or the uneven plodding of moonlighting semi-bilinguals which came before, clashes both with Matsuno's swings between brutal low fantasy and deliberate '70s-fantasy anachronism as well as with the living worlds which MMOs attempt to be.

Japanese is also a much more direct language than (well written) English tends to be. There's a reason those old Final Fantasy fan translations are largely mocked around these parts.

I've heard Japanese described in many ways before, but I don't think I've ever heard it described as more direct than English, nor would directness alone be a fault. (I'd love to see an RPG manage to evoke Hemingway, for example.)

 

[fvng]

This isn't Shakespearean.

It's closer to Game of Thrones.

That's more aimed at other posters here who are saying "if you read Shakespere more often, you'd have no problem with this game! And you're suggesting that If I binge read more George RR Martin books, I can read through this game's without ever needing to pause to make sense of what anyone's saying.

It's just that most people who have an interest in literature often run into older theatre at some point or another (usually high school) and can read through this pretty easily.

Got it, so the translators were aiming for a pretty niche of a niche target audience. SRPG/FF fans who also read a ton of older literature

 

[SolVanderlyn]

I don't think an ancient demon would sound natural in any setting. The second sentence also requires context or it makes no sense.

Also, have you ever considered that the original Japanese translation may not actually be that interesting?

If FFXII and FFXIV are anything to go by, I much prefer the more straightforward original dialogue.

Japanese is a more direct language, but that's not what the case is here. A good localization would make the original dialogue readable for a western audience. I'm not asking for a literal/machine translation by any means. The Trails series has a fantastic localization, for example - it tries its hardest to be fit for English readers without sacrificing any of the mood or tone of the Japanese script. Example here. War of the Lions just goes completely out into left field and does its own thing.

Again, it's not that it's hard to read or anything. It's just that - personally - I find it very hamfisted and pretentious in this specific case.

 

[Lothar]

Nope, I like it.

Not everything has to be gritty and grounded in how people in our time (and reality for that matter!) would speak -- I can go for flowery and theatrical happily in a fantasy setting, especially when it's written like that.

It sounds to me like she's trying too hard to be clever when she should be concerned about her friend. That's the kind of sentence I'd expect from an evil queen talking about her subjects.

 

[Skilletor]

That's more aimed at other posters here who are saying "if you read Shakespere more often, you'd have no problem with this game! And you're suggesting that If I bing read more George RR Martin books, I can read through this game's without ever needing to pause to make sense of what anyone's saying.

I'm saying no such thing. I don't know what you'd need to read for this to make sense. You keep saying that there's no way I can read this just once and understand it. That's not true. I never had to reread anything in this game to understand. /shrug

So, yeah, speaks more about you as a reader than the translation.

 

[tuxfool]

Unless English isn't his first language, yep, the readability problem has nothing to do with the game's translation and prose. Vagrant Story's dialogue (pretty much identical to this, being an Ivalice-ish game) is one of the main reasons I consider it my favourite game of all time.

"Warping the minds of men and shepherding the masses has always been your church's domain. You lure sheep with empty miracles and a dead god."

HNNNNGG.

Yes. So good.

 

[fvng]

If FFXII and FFXIV are anything to go by, I much prefer the more straightforward original dialogue.

XIV takes it to the point of obnoxious where many players just skip through dialogue because the translators didn't bother making the dialogue both digestible and beautiful.

That's a failure in storytelling.

I'm saying no such thing. I don't know what you'd need to read for this to make sense. You keep saying that there's no way I can read this just once and understand it. That's not true. I never had to reread anything in this game to understand. /shrug

So, yeah, speaks more about you as a reader than the translation.

My cited examples in the first post are more cringe citations they're readable, just cringe.. I'm happy to continue posting more egregious offenses in this thread, or update the OP

Yes. So good.

"Warping the minds of men and shepherding the masses has always been your church's domain. You lure sheep with empty miracles and a dead god."

HNNNNGG.

If only WOTL kept up this level of understandable eloquent English.

 

[tuxfool]

It sounds to me like she's trying too hard to be clever when she should be concerned about her friend. That's the kind of sentence I'd expect from an evil queen talking about her subjects.

Have you ever been to the theatre?

 

[ethomaz]

Unless English isn't his first language, yep, the readability problem has nothing to do with the game's translation and prose. Vagrant Story's dialogue (pretty much identical to this, being an Ivalice-ish game) is one of the main reasons I consider it my favourite game of all time.

"Warping the minds of men and shepherding the masses has always been your church's domain. You lure sheep with empty miracles and a dead god."

HNNNNGG.

I'm not saying that about the readability but to get used to different type of English dialogues... books based in old fantasy some time uses a different way of speak to fit the thematic.

FFT uses the Ivanice way to speak English... similar ways can be found in literature and you get used to it at the point to not bother you reading the text.

I found the second translation perfect for the game while I played the Japanese game over the English one on PS1 due ricilous translation.

And talking about read books if you look at Japanese mangas/books you will see a lot of authors trying to use a old Japanese language to fit the period that happens the story... if you are only used to modern Japanese you will have a hard time to read theses.

WOTL tries to use a old Japanese style of speack created to Ivanice that is based in old Japanese language... it fits the game.

I will say increase your vocabulary with new ways of speak with books and literature... I like it.

PS. I can be wrong too because my first language is Portuguese while I'm a student of English and Japanese... the Portuguese talked 500 years ago is complete different from today... I love to read books from Baroque and Romantic era in Portuguese.

 

[Mandoric]

XIV takes it to the point of obnoxious where many players just skip through dialogue because the translators didn't bother making the dialogue both digestible and beautiful.

That's a failure in storytelling.

To play devil's advocate, MMOs as a genre are where the modern playerbase demands floating golden ? and ! because plain-English single sentences are too much.

 

[Basileus777]

This isn't Shakespearean.

It's closer to Game of Thrones.

No it isn't. George Martin's dialogue is not like this.

 

[kiaaa]

Got it, so the translators were aiming for a pretty niche of a niche target audience. SRPG/FF fans who also read a ton of older literature

There's probably a pretty heavy overlap there, but no, I don't think they were aiming for a niche like that. Again, older plays are extremely common in American high schools. The language in WOTL really shouldn't be difficult to understand for most players.

XIV takes it to the point of obnoxious where many players just skip through dialogue because the translators didn't bother making the dialogue both digestible and beautiful.

That's a failure in storytelling.

Many MMO players skip through dialogue regardless of what it says. There's a shit-ton of it.

 

[DrROBschiz]

The new translation was a bit over the top against the old one for sure

but its tolerable and the game is just such an overall improvement in so many areas that I wasnt really that taken back by it

I could see the annoyance though

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Everybody doesn't talk the same, though. The dialogue of commoners is very different from nobles. Even gafgarion sounds different from the rest.

That's fine though. Nobles should definitely have different speech patterns than commoners who should have different speech patterns than hardened mercenaries.

This isn't Shakespearean.

It's closer to Game of Thrones.

Wut. I don't agree at all. It's definitely more Shakespearean. Have you even read ASoIaF? While GRRM has a few quirks (like his recent obsessions with archaic words and phrases like "must needs" or "nuncle", lol), overall the prose and dialogue has never been "purple", it's mostly fairly straight-forward.

I mean an actual line from AGoT:
"Fuck you, dwarf." (Bronn to Tyrion xD)

 

[Skilletor]

No it isn't. George Martin's dialogue is not like this.

Yes, I know. Just saying it's closer to Martin than Shakespeare.

 

[tuxfool]

If only WOTL kept up this level of understandable eloquent English.

Sorry but I find WotL perfectly acceptable too. And even if I like that piece of prose from Vagrant Story, I find the language used a bit too anachronistic.

 

[fvng]

There's probably a pretty heavy overlap there, but no, I don't think they were aiming for a niche like that. Again, older plays are extremely common in American high schools. The language in WOTL really shouldn't be difficult to understand for most players.

You think most SRPG/Final Fantasy fans were theater and English lit enthusiasts, and studied classics in english literature? You think there's a heavy overlap there, on what data are you basing that?

 

[Durante]

It sounds to me like she's trying too hard to be clever when she should be concerned about her friend. That's the kind of sentence I'd expect from an evil queen talking about her subjects.

Or maybe that's just how people talk in that setting. That's how I take it.

Then again, I might be particularly tolerant of things like this -- that is, being more playful with language in general, not just in this type of pseudo-historic setting. I mean, I greatly enjoyed Bank's Feersum Endjinn, and that reads like this in parts:

I hit a snag; Mr Zoliparia dozent apeer 2 b in. Am standin @ thi top ov a rikiti ladder inside thi bodi ov thi gargoil Rosbrith abangin & abashin on thi litil sircular doar ov Mr Zoliparia's partments but 4 ol my hammerin therz no anser. Therz a woodin landin blo me wot thi laddirs perchd on (its rikity 2, by thi way. Cum 2 fink ov it moast stuff in thi Astrolidjers/Alchemists town seamz 2 b pretti rickiti) but nway therz a old lady scrubbin thi dam landin wif sum horibil bubblin stuff thatz bringin thi wood on thi landin up a treat evein if it disolvin most ov it & makin it even moar rikity, but thi poynt is this stuffs makin fewms go up my nose & cozin my Is 2 wotir.

Mr Zoliparia! I shout. Iss Bascule here!

Perhaps u shood ½ told him u were cumin, Ergates says from her box.

Mr Zoliparia doan hold wif moderin like inplants & that sort ov stuf, I tell her, sneezin. Heez a disidint.

U coud ½ left a messidje with sumbody else, Ergates sez.

Yes yes yes I sez, ol anoid bcoz I no sheez rite. I spose now I ½ 2 use my own bleedin inplantz & Ive been tryin not 2 apart from contaktin thi wurld ov thi ded coz I want 2 b a disidint like Mr Zoliparia.

Mr Zoliparia! I shouts agen. Ive got my scarf up round my mouf & noze now cos ov thi fumes cumin up from thi landin.

O, bugration.

Is sumbody using hidrokloric asid? Ergates sez. On wood? She sounds mistified.

I doan no about that I sez but therz sum ole girl down thare scrubbin away @ thi landin wif sumfin pretti nockshis.

Odd, Ergates sez. I woz sure heed b in. I think u bettir get down - but then thi door opins & thares Mr Zoliparia in a big towel & what ther is ov his hares ol wet.

Bascule! he shouts @ me, mite ½ noan it woz u! Then he glares down @ thi ole lady & waves @ me 2 come in & I scrambil ovir thi top ov thi laddir & in2 thi I-ball.

Take yor shooz off, boy, he sez, if u stept in dat stuf on di landin yule b rotten me carpets. When uve dun dat u can make yoorself usful & warm me up some wine. Then he pads off, hoistin his towl up around him & leavin a trale ov watir behind him on thi flor.

I start 2 take me shooz off.

You bean havin a baf Mr Zoliparia? I asks him.

He juss lukes @ me.

(I'm also not a native speaker, I'm sure that significantly affects how you perceive language)

 

[SomeRandomWeirdGuy]

XIV takes it to the point of obnoxious where many players just skip through dialogue because the translators didn't bother making the dialogue both digestible and beautiful.

That's a failure in storytelling.

"Many"? Sounds mighty anecdotal to me, so here's my anecdote to counter. Just about everyone I know that's played FFXIV and actually read the dialogue loved it. There's a sizable chunk of MMO players that skip dialogue regardless of quality . Seems like they're using that an excuse for their shitty habits?

This style of localization is infinitely better than everyone speaking like it's modern day regardless of setting. If this is somehow unreadable to you, or "cringy" then I honestly dunno what to say. It's easy as fuck to parse and adds to the atmosphere of the games immensely.

 

[poodaddy]

If this bothers you then avoid fantasy novels OP. Mislike is literally the only nonsensical example of the bunch, apart from that it's a damn good translation. War of the Lions is infinitely better than the original Tactics.

 

[GrayFoxPL]

None of your examples seem weird to me, but I read books occasionally.

 

[Astral]

The problem with this example is that it completely ignores the entire context in which this line is being said, especially since this is literally in the middle of a conversation.

Zalera is taunting Meliadoul about her father. The second sentence is exactly referring to the fact that her father is not her father any longer, but merely a Lucavi pawn at this point.

With that actual context (which is set up by the last two or three lines of dialogue that you omitted for the sake of making this argument), the sentence actually doesn't (or at least shouldn't) require you to stop and think about this.

This needs to be quoted multiple times. Thank you. My problem with this example is that I had no idea who he was talking about so of course the second sentence was confusing.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Yes, I know. Just saying it's closer to Martin than Shakespeare.

But it's really not...

 

[Mentosrock]

No it isn't. George Martin's dialogue is not like this.

It's more like a bad approximation of George Martin's dialogue. Whereas his makes sense given the context of his world, this is like a contrived attempt to add unnecessary depth to sentences.