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[Colbert]

Thanks. I guess whats confusing me is that it seems to be that ultra textures(I assume those are 4k textures) also appear in the "low" settings.
For example here: http://images.nvidia.com/geforce-co...-interactive-comparison-001-ultra-vs-low.html

Some textures are lower res, but most character textures as the same as on ultra.

I'd imagine that you can always load some 4k assets, in theory XB1 could do that, too, but it could just load way less 4k assets than Scorpio. Is that right?

So when you have a larger scene you can focus the memory budget on the important assets, for example skin textures and cloth textures so the characters in focus look good.
But Scorpio can also make the background look really good while Xb1 would have to make drastic cutbacks here.

For a 1080p output device (TV) you provide art files (images, textures, videos) with maximum level of detail you can see on that device. It wouldn't make sense to provide 4K level of detail as you would need it to downsample anyway.

You do that because you want to save your footprint in the graphics memory and on your storage drive. Those textures are huge. Thats the reason there are methods like Tiled Resources in DX12 to reduce the footprint of those textures to be held in memory.

And your conclusion is correct regarding Scorpio. The bigger memory pool allows Scorpio to actually use textures of that size without hitting the limits of the memory.

 

[soundscream]

On the other hand, I highly doubt they'll be shipping enhanced assets on-disc. There just won't be space for them. Even games designed purely for the original XB1/PS4, with no consideration for 4k whatsoever, are straining that 50GB capacity to it's limits (and beyond, in a few cases).

Yeah no way is it going to be on disc, unless its a very small game.

 

[Colbert]

Bottom line: Higher resolution textures.
The term "4k assets" confused me.

Sorry to have confused you but the 4K assets term tells you that those "higher resolution assets" are maxxed out for/at 4K and the normal assets are usually maxxed out at lower resolutions by downsampling.

 

[Liabe Brave]

Here
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-04-06-project-scorpio-explained

@10:00 for the forza talk
https://youtu.be/2vDCUcGPTWg

Thanks! That does make it sound like he saw both versions, unlike some of his other comments.

I'm going to need receipts on this

Errr, what? I'm looking at some RX480 reference numbers now, but I'd like to see your work first.

Here's the Wikipedia page. Here's AMD's product page.

The RX480 comes in several configurations, but the biggest has 8GB of RAM. The Xbox Scorpio also has 8GB of RAM for games, but this is shared between the CPU and GPU. CPU usage will never be zero, so Scorpio has less available GPU RAM than the RX480.

RX480 can also be clocked higher than Scorpio's GPU. Since RAM clocks are tied to the core clock, this means the RAM is faster as well.

Relatively undemanding =/= Highly optimized, vice versa

Not really. "Relatively undemanding" and "highly optimized" aren't synonyms, but they're more similar than opposite to each other. Highly optimized software demands less from hardware in order to do the same work.

 

[Tripolygon]

The extra CUs is correct, but Scorpio has less GPU RAM, and slower, versus RX480.

I don't think that is true. I'm going to guess the Jaguar CPU in Scorpio would not take more than ~30GB/s of the total bandwidth in Scorpion, and that leaves about ~296GB/s for the GPU. The memory is also unified so i don't think there would be any need to partition the available memory when they could work in the same data concurrently.

 

[Asherdude]

This is the closest that I've found to DF's screen shot. Forza 6 with rain on the XB1.

Is this leap really true?

The XB1 screen shot came from VE3TRO in this thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1358501

 

[Liabe Brave]

I don't think that is true. I'm going to guess the Jaguar CPU in Scorpio would not take more than ~30GB/s of the total bandwidth in Scorpion, and that leaves about ~296GB/s for the GPU.

RX 480 has less bandwidth than Scorpio's GPU, but the earlier claim I argued with is that Scorpio's RAM has a higher clock.

Is this leap really true?

There's no reason to believe it isn't. Keep in mind that the only things changed about the game between these two shots--according to Microsoft and Digital Foundry--are resolution and texture quality. The "Scorpio" screenshot is otherwise running exactly the same assets as Xbox One.

Almost all the visual impact that seems to indicate a large change is due to the reflections, which don't seem as good in the Xbox One shot because the sky being reflected is just flat neutral grey. If it was replaced with the same skybox, the two shots would look much more similar. The actual big advantage Scorpio has is the resolution, which mostly disappears when shrunk down like this.

 

[Wishmaster92]

Here is one. http://images.nvidia.com/geforce-co...teractive-comparison-001-ultra-vs-medium.html and that is from medium to Ultra. The difference is definitely apparent.

And the entire guide if interested. http://www.geforce.com/whats-new/gu...nce-guide#gears-of-war-4-world-texture-detail

Kinda Off Topic but gears is one of the best optimized games I've ever played on PC and one of the best, if not the best, port as well. It is amazing on PC.

EDIT: Also, these guides are flipping amazing.

idk there's barely like any difference from high to ultra. You can tell, but it's nothing revelatory. According to DF the xbox one uses texture setting: high.

Based on our testing, it would appear that Xbox One comes in around the high setting for each of these options with textures that are a great fit for 1080p.

 

[LightningXCE]

Bottom line: Higher resolution textures.
The term "4k assets" confused me.

This usually means texture sizes are 4096x4096 pixels in demensions. Usually, they're smaller.

 

[Tripolygon]

This is the closest that I've found to DF's screen shot. Forza 6 with rain on the XB1.

Is this leap really true?

There is nothing there that is unbelievable. 6TF is big especially in a closed platform. As an aside, going by the above screenshot, PS4 Pro would be able to run that at 4K 60fps. GPU and Memory utilisation is roughly on par with what PS4 Pro offers in terms of performance.

 

[CrustyBritches]

RX480 can also be clocked higher than Scorpio's GPU. Since RAM clocks are tied to the core clock, this means the RAM is faster as well.

I've never heard of this.

RX 480 is 256GB/s on a 256-bit memory bus. It has memory clock at 2000MHz. Maximum memory oc for the RX 480 is 2250MHz from what I've seen and that only gets you to 288GB/s.

RX 480 has 1266MHz core resulting in 5.8TFLOPS. You'd need to overclock to 1305MHz to reach 6TFLOPS.

If anything, the Scorpio is like an overclocked RX 480, but from the performance DF described in Forza Apex (Ultra, 2xAA, wet weather, full grid), the Scorpio is outperforming a RX 480(1305MHz)/fx-8350(4GHz) by around 25%.

 

[soundscream]

RX 480 has less bandwidth than Scorpio's GPU, but the earlier claim I argued with is that Scorpio's RAM has a higher clock.


There's no reason to believe it isn't. Keep in mind that the only things changed about the game between these two shots--according to Microsoft and Digital Foundry--are resolution and texture quality. The "Scorpio" screenshot is otherwise running exactly the same assets as Xbox One.

Almost all the visual impact that seems to indicate a large change is due to the reflections, which don't seem as good in the Xbox One shot because the sky being reflected is just flat neutral grey. If it was replaced with the same skybox, the two shots would look much more similar. The actual big advantage Scorpio has is the resolution, which mostly disappears when shrunk down like this.

And dynamic weather, something they weren't able to do before on xb1.

 

[Asherdude]

There is nothing there that is unbelievable. 6TF is big especially in a closed platform. As an aside, going by the above screenshot, PS4 Pro would be able to run that at 4K 60fps. GPU and Memory utilisation is roughly on par with what PS4 Pro offers in terms of performance.

But DF claimed that they needed a GTX 1080 to achieve that level of performance. The GTX 1070 dropped frames during the rain sequences. Did I misread it or are you saying that they're wrong?

 

[soundscream]

But DF claimed that they needed a GTX 1080 to achieve that level of performance. The GTX 1070 dropped frames during the rain sequences. Did I misread it or are you saying that they're wrong?

Are you talking about Apex?

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

idk there's barely like any difference from high to ultra. You can tell, but it's nothing revelatory. According to DF the xbox one uses texture setting: high.

Unless I'm mistaken, the differences are more apparent the larger your screen is at higher resolutions and in game. I don't have a very large screen though only 34" 3440x1440p.I also think it effects lighting techniques and such like reflections and what not, at least the clarity or ability to see it correctly. This is just coming from me playing around in settings and experiencing the differences though. I could be way off on what is actually technically happening. All I know is that I crank it up when I can (haven't actually had to turn it lower than Ultra on any game I've played on my 1080 thank goodness) and it usually makes things look much better all together.

 

[Asherdude]

Are you talking about Apex?

Yeah. DF said that they ran Apex on a GTX 1080 with ultra settings and only it could match the Scorpio's performance. The GTX 1070 couldn't handle the weather. Is that skybox in Apex, because I can't find it on the XB1 version.

 

[Deckard Chapel]

I have no idea how they plan to provide those assets. I personally believe it will require an additional download.

What about a higher-capacity 4K Blu-ray disc that can also be read by the standard PS4/Xbone drive?

Does such a thing even exist?

 

[arhra]

Yeah. DF said that they ran Apex on a GTX 1080 with ultra settings and only it could match the Scorpio's performance. The GTX 1070 couldn't handle the weather. Is that skybox in Apex, because I can't find it on the XB1 version.

The skybox (and wet tarmac) look more like something out of FH3 rather than FM6, so I'm guessing those are improvements/additions made to the engine after the FM6/Apex release.

Also, that screenshot is still running at base xb1 settings, with the textures being the only upgrade other than the resolution. We haven't seen anything of the "cranked up to ultra" Scorpio version yet, just DF's word that it exists, and maxed out at ~88% GPU utilization.

 

[soundscream]

Yeah. DF said that they ran Apex on a GTX 1080 with ultra settings and only it could match the Scorpio's performance. The GTX 1070 couldn't handle the weather. Is that skybox in Apex, because I can't find it on the XB1 version.

No its dynamic weather, not in apex or 6. I'm sure the optimizations done to the weather will be there when 7 comes to pc.

 

[Metalingus5150]

What about a higher-capacity 4K Blu-ray disc that can also be read by the standard PS4/Xbone drive?

Does such a thing even exist?

Higher capacity Blu Rays do exist, but they won't be used for game discs. Discs will be the standard PS4 or Xbone discs.

 

[Caio]

Yeah. DF said that they ran Apex on a GTX 1080 with ultra settings and only it could match the Scorpio's performance. The GTX 1070 couldn't handle the weather. Is that skybox in Apex, because I can't find it on the XB1 version.

I will buy Scorpio on Day One, Im sold. What this hardware can do in a close environment is impressive.

 

[Tripolygon]

But DF claimed that they needed a GTX 1080 to achieve that level of performance. The GTX 1070 dropped frames during the rain sequences. Did I misread it or are you saying that they're wrong?

Oh no not at all. Console and PC environment are different, the way a software can be optimised to run on a console is different than on PC.

 

[jaypah]

Higher capacity Blu Rays do exist, but they won't be used for game discs. Discs will be the standard PS4 or Xbone discs.

But those discs can't be read by standard XB1, right? I believe that's what the poster was asking.

 

[MCD]

I will buy Scorpio on Day One, Im sold. What this hardware can do in a close environment is impressive.

It's impressive but I will be frank, I need to see it in motion instead of here is this screenshot of stress testing blahblah.

 

[Asherdude]

The skybox (and wet tarmac) look more like something out of FH3 rather than FM6, so I'm guessing those are improvements/additions made to the engine after the FM6/Apex release.

Also, that screenshot is still running at base xb1 settings, with the textures being the only upgrade other than the resolution. We haven't seen anything of the "cranked up to ultra" Scorpio version yet, just DF's word that it exists, and maxed out at ~88% GPU utilization.

Then what DF saw running on Scorpio actually looks better?? Damn, I can't wait for E3!

 

[Metalingus5150]

But those discs can't be read by standard XB1, right? I believe that's what the poster was asking.

Scorpio game discs will be the regular vanilla Xbone blu ray discs. The slim and Scorpio can use the higher capacity discs but will only be used for movies.

 

[Liabe Brave]

RX 480 is 256GB/s on a 256-bit memory bus. It has memory clock at 2000MHz. Maximum memory oc for the RX 480 is 2250MHz from what I've seen and that only gets you to 288GB/s.

RX 480 has 1266MHz core resulting in 5.8TFLOPS. You'd need to overclock to 1305MHz to reach 6TFLOPS.

If anything, the Scorpio is like an overclocked RX 480....

No, it's clocked lower than 1266 MHz. But because it has more CUs it can achieve higher TFLOPS even at that lower speed. That's why I said the RAM isn't faster than RX 480. It does have higher bandwidth because the memory bus is wider.

And dynamic weather, something they weren't able to do before on xb1.

If dynamic weather is in Forza Motorsport 7, do you think it'll be exclusive to Scorpio? That seems to contradict at least the spirit of their "no one left behind" promise.

 

[soundscream]

No, it's clocked lower than 1266 MHz. But because it has more CUs it can achieve higher TFLOPS even at that lower speed. That's why I said the RAM isn't faster than RX 480. It does have higher bandwidth because the memory bus is wider.


If dynamic weather is in Forza Motorsport 7, do you think it'll be exclusive to Scorpio? That seems to contradict at least the spirit of their "no one left behind" promise.

Odds are high it's scorpio exclusive but turn 10 are very good at squeezing out extra juice so who knows. But its a feature not a whole game, so like VR being only on scorpio I could see it.

 

[jaypah]

Scorpio game discs will be the regular vanilla Xbone blu ray discs. The slim and Scorpio can use the higher capacity discs but will only be used for movies.

Yeah, I'm aware. The poster was asking if there was a higher capacity disc that could also be read by the original XB1 and PS4.

 

[Colbert]

Yeah, I'm aware. The poster was asking if there was a higher capacity disc that could also be read by the original XB1 and PS4.

Thats something we can add to our imaginary list of questions for a Q&A with Albert Penello.

 

[Deckard Chapel]

Higher capacity Blu Rays do exist, but they won't be used for game discs. Discs will be the standard PS4 or Xbone discs.

Then I suppose we can expect a hefty 4K assets download for both Scorpio and PS4 Pro.

It seems like PS4/Xbone are holding the visual quality back for potential Pro/Scorpio assets.

 

[jroc74]

This is the closest that I've found to DF's screen shot. Forza 6 with rain on the XB1.

Is this leap really true?

One things for sure, this looks like alot more realistic comparison vs the pics in that other thread. Some called it out in there too.


Nvm, I see this was posted in that thread, which came from this thread many pages ago. lol. Hard trying to keep up with all the Scorpio hype.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1358501

 

[jaypah]

If dynamic weather is in Forza Motorsport 7, do you think it'll be exclusive to Scorpio? That seems to contradict at least the spirit of their "no one left behind" promise.

They won't do it, mainly because it'll break online play between Scorpio and XB1 while also blowing up the budget for what is kind of 2 versions of 1 game. But that's the type of stuff that would be interesting to see as a perk of having a higher spec console. Not next gen, but different enough to push past the obvious IQ increases.

Thats something we can add to our imaginary list of questions for a Q&A I guess.

I'm sure it completed someone's bingo card

 

[quest]

Then I suppose we can expect a hefty 4K assets download for both Scorpio and PS4 Pro.

Unless Sony cuts back on OS usage of ram there is no 4k assets for the pro. Thankfully I don't have a data cap for Scorpio 4k assets. I still think any non standard version should include second disk with them.

 

[Asherdude]

Oh no not at all. Console and PC environment are different, the way a software can be optimised to run on a console is different than on PC.

I'm thinking the same. It's using custom modifications that optimizes the crap out of the hardware. This isn't a Dodge Viper, the specs just don't fit. It's more like a Porsche 911 Turbo. It's a 6 cylinder, but a very nice 6 cylinder.

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

This is the closest that I've found to DF's screen shot. Forza 6 with rain on the XB1.

Is this leap really true?

Well, for one that XB1 shot is probably done with photomode...we need to wait and see the difference in gameplay and not still shots (Forza on XB1 has some anti-aliasing probs...looks nowhere near that smooth during gameplay). That's where it will be evident.

 

[Fredrik]

If dynamic weather is in Forza Motorsport 7, do you think it'll be exclusive to Scorpio? That seems to contradict at least the spirit of their "no one left behind" promise.

I doubt it, if anyone can do it on XB1 it's Turn 10. But the truth is that there will always be someone left behind now, everything else is PR talk, the games will obviously run on XB1 but we have no idea what so ever what cool features they'll add for the Scorpio versions, guessing is meaningless. XB1 gamers will definitely be without something.
That's why me and many other were so pissed when the upgrades rumours first started, buying the day 1 consoles doesn't seemed so wise all of a sudden...
I'm mostly over it now though, I'll jump in, definitely on Scorpio since it'll be better for multiplats but I'll probably jump in on PS4 Pro too at some point and get is as an exclusives console.

 

[Jaguar Victory]

This is the closest that I've found to DF's screen shot. Forza 6 with rain on the XB1.

Is this leap really true?

I'd like to dub this the "Reverse Ubisoft"

 

[CrustyBritches]

No, it's clocked lower than 1266 MHz. But because it has more CUs it can achieve higher TFLOPS even at that lower speed. That's why I said the RAM isn't faster than RX 480. It does have higher bandwidth because the memory bus is wider.

Let's not split hairs, though. The Scorpio's GPU is more powerful than a stock RX 480. Taking the memory into account, probably around 10-15% without any console optimizations. If you overclock core to 1305MHz and overclock memory to 2250MHz you roughly have a Scorpio GPU, assuming the Jag uses ~40GB/s memory bandwidth.

What's cool is that with Xbox titles on Windows and UWP, we'll get to compare some 1st-party titles. I think 390x/GTX 980 performance is a solid baseline expectation for Scorpio. Phil Spencer actually compared it to a GTX 980. They'll probably tune the shit out of Forza to make sure it plays like a GPU a tier above, so maybe matching a Fury.

 

[Jaguar Victory]

The skybox (and wet tarmac) look more like something out of FH3 rather than FM6, so I'm guessing those are improvements/additions made to the engine after the FM6/Apex release.

Also, that screenshot is still running at base xb1 settings, with the textures being the only upgrade other than the resolution. We haven't seen anything of the "cranked up to ultra" Scorpio version yet, just DF's word that it exists, and maxed out at ~88% GPU utilization.

Damn, now that you mention it you're right. That looks like a FH3 HDR skybox running on Forza 6. Holy shit if they can get that at 60FPS I'm impressed.

 

[Jaguar Victory]

Thats something we can add to our imaginary list of questions for a Q&A with Albert Penello.

I would pay an extra $5 for a game to come with a second 4K asset disc. Like RPG's used to in the old days. Who remembers FFVII? lol

 

[Fredrik]

Can't wait to see the first Face Off between XB1 and Scorpio! And obviously PS4 Pro vs Scorpio vs PC too.
When might that happen if the launch is in November? Did we get any PS4 Pro vs PS4 comparisons before the launch?

 

[ResidentDante]

I'd like to dub this the "Reverse Ubisoft"

Lol!

 

[Asherdude]

One things for sure, this looks like alot more realistic comparison vs the pics in that other thread. Some called it out in there too.


Nvm, I see this was posted in that thread, which came from this thread many pages ago. lol. Hard trying to keep up with all the Scorpio hype.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1358501

Thanks for finding the source. I found it with Google, floating around another site. No telling how many times it's been copied and re-jpeged.

 

[Liabe Brave]

Let's not split hairs, though. The Scorpio's GPU is more powerful than a stock RX 480. Taking the memory into account, probably around 10-15% without any console optimizations.

I think it's pretty much guesswork to put a percentage on it right now, but yeah, it's definitely more powerful. I was only correcting the details about how it's more powerful.

I think 390x/GTX 980 performance is a solid baseline expectation for Scorpio. Phil Spencer actually compared it to a GTX 980. They'll probably tune the shit out of Forza to make sure it plays like a GPU a tier above, so maybe matching a Fury.

This sounds pretty reasonable. Racing games and sports games will (as usual) make the machine seem extra powerful. High-ambition open world games will make it seem underpowered. Either way, the end results will be a big step up from the current average.

I'm interested in seeing how differences to PS4 Pro shake out, though. The jump from CBR to native rendering, from high textures to ultra, from post-processing AA to MSAA, from HBAO to HBAO+, etc. should all be doable with Scorpio. But I suspect the impact of those improvements may hit some diminishing returns. Most people will still be playing on 1080p displays, and even the ones with fancy new screens may not get the full effect, considering how far folks usually sit from their TVs.

 

[JaffeLion]

This is the closest that I've found to DF's screen shot. Forza 6 with rain on the XB1.

Is this leap really true?

The XB1 screen shot came from VE3TRO in this thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1358501

holy shit! the difference is HUGE! WOW!

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/206103

 

[DeeBatch]

I've got Forza 6 on my XB1. It looks good, but it doesn't look that good. I checked online too and I can't find any screenshots that comes close to that one. So, yeah, those are 4k assets.

Xbox One

Scorpio

 

[dragonelite]

I doubt it, if anyone can do it on XB1 it's Turn 10. But the truth is that there will always be someone left behind now, everything else is PR talk, the games will obviously run on XB1 but we have no idea what so ever what cool features they'll add for the Scorpio versions, guessing is meaningless. XB1 gamers will definitely be without something.
That's why me and many other were so pissed when the upgrades rumours first started, buying the day 1 consoles doesn't seemed so wise all of a sudden...
I'm mostly over it now though, I'll jump in, definitely on Scorpio since it'll be better for multiplats but I'll probably jump in on PS4 Pro too at some point and get is as an exclusives console.

The could always use Checkerboard rendering on x1 to free up resources to allow dynamic weather.

 

[UKUMI0]

I doubt it, if anyone can do it on XB1 it's Turn 10. But the truth is that there will always be someone left behind now, everything else is PR talk, the games will obviously run on XB1 but we have no idea what so ever what cool features they'll add for the Scorpio versions, guessing is meaningless. XB1 gamers will definitely be without something.
That's why me and many other were so pissed when the upgrades rumours first started, buying the day 1 consoles doesn't seemed so wise all of a sudden...
I'm mostly over it now though, I'll jump in, definitely on Scorpio since it'll be better for multiplats but I'll probably jump in on PS4 Pro too at some point and get is as an exclusives console.

That's a bit dramatic, I mean the Day One console came out nearly 4 years ago and the way things are going will still be useful for at least another 3.

 

[Liabe Brave]

holy shit! the difference is HUGE! WOW!

The difference you see is due almost completely to a different setting for the sky. If the Xbox One version had the same sky/weather, it would look almost identical.

We know that's true, because we know the only things improved in the Scorpio version were resolution and texture quality. But both of those improvements are basically invisible, given that the shots have both been downscaled.