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[scently]

Xbox One

Scorpio

There are several things to note about these comparison pics; The X1 pic is from photomode which means the lod is at its maximum, while the Scorpio shot is a gameplay shot with a free camera. You can't do that on an X1 because the Scorpio shot is a dev shot. If you could do that then the X1 shot will match the Scorpio LOD. Photomode always loads assets at their maximum.

Also, the Scorpio shot is from a "ForzaTech" which is the name of the engine used to develop the Forza games. The reason you can't get the same "look" on F6 is probably because that pic is more representative of what F7 will look like. Richard noted that the have dynamic weather on, that's not available on F6 so its likely that F7 will have dynamic weather, The pic also shows signs of this; the sky is overcast with the sun breaking in, the ground is wet yet the cars are not.

 

[Fredrik]

That's a bit dramatic, I mean the Day One console came out nearly 4 years ago and the way things are going will still be useful for at least another 3.

Actually, XB1 launched 2.5 years ago, in Sweden at least. :/

 

[meirl]

Actually, XB1 launched 2.5 years ago, in Sweden at least. :/

So? You could easily buy it from amazon.de for the same Price. Actually a LOT of people did that

 

[Raide]

I wonder if we will see a heavy advertising push on Scorpio games but with the Play Anywhere tags on them, instead of Xbox One with a Scorpio tag on it?

The former would certainly feel like a new console launch, if all the software has Scorpio all over it but i wonder if they worry about confusing people. I guess it makes more sense to push Scorpio but even if people are unsure, it will still work!

 

[Fredrik]

So? You could easily buy it from amazon.de for the same Price. Actually a LOT of people did that

Possibly so. I believe there were some rumours about issues when buying digital games when you did that though, either way I waited for the launch in 2014.

 

[Backfoggen]

More on Forza in a couple of hours:

A quick heads-up: at 2pm UK today, 6am Pacific, we'll be running our massive @ForzaMotorsport/ Project Scorpio deep dive.

To temper expectations though: no new screenshots, no direct feed etc. Just lots and lots of information.

 

[opricnik]

Possibly so. I believe there were some rumours about issues when buying digital games when you did that though, either way I waited for the launch in 2014.

Sorry but why is that even relevant to this topic.

lol?

 

[fantomena]

We get enough new games. A tech site doing a first look on the specs isnt a place for announcing games,

Enough new games? Have you seen how many threads there have been questioning MS game output, especially first party output? Even the XBone subreddit have had threads like this one.

 

[scently]

More on Forza in a couple of hours:

Cool. Looking forward to it.

 

[Ushay]

More on Forza in a couple of hours:

Nice, I guess DF will be trickling this information throughout the month.

 

[Raide]

More on Forza in a couple of hours:

Great news but still a little annoying no direct feed footage. I am sure it's coming eventually!

 

[Linkified]

But this isn't about backward compatibility, MS new generationless approach is about forward compatibility. In iPad/PC model you can do whatever you like: Target most hardware settings to reach max audience, or target the high end hardware because your ideas depends on best hardware. However in MS's approach, you have to design your ideas around the previous iteration of Xbox hardware whether you like it or not.

Now of course most devs will try to target most platforms out there, but for some games this isn't practical (or even possible in some cases). Scorpio being the new base for development, will hinder some game designs which are CPU dependent such as Interactive AI, advanced physics... So I'm not sure some 3rd party devs will be happy about being forced to support Scorpio.

'Forward compatibility' was just a buzzword in essence whats MS is stating is exactly like that of iPad.

Lets state MS has a new IP in 2018 we will call it Game X. Now yes it will run on Xbox One, not breaking any statements, however it could run like dog shit but runs fine on the Scorpio similar how certain games ran crap between an iPhone 3GS versus iPhone 4S for example.

Plus devs should develop around constraints of hardware not try to push them that is how we have ended up with so many broken games.

 

[CrustyBritches]

I'm interested in seeing how differences to PS4 Pro shake out, though. The jump from CBR to native rendering, from high textures to ultra, from post-processing AA to MSAA, from HBAO to HBAO+, etc. should all be doable with Scorpio. But I suspect the impact of those improvements may hit some diminishing returns. Most people will still be playing on 1080p displays, and even the ones with fancy new screens may not get the full effect, considering how far folks usually sit from their TVs.

Same here. There will definitely be diminishing returns to some extent the higher the resolution goes. 1080p users will probably make up a large portion of the users, so it's going to be a battle of who can offer the best support and solutions. I was running Ryse at 1080p/30fps with better than Xbox One settings with highest texture quality, 16xAF, and 2x2 supersampling enabled and it looks amazing compared to the XO version. That's with 2.3GHz fx-8350 and 1305MHz RX 480. Supersampling should be a standard option with these mid-gen upgrade consoles. Only makes sense and looks great for 1080p users.

The Pro's boost mode was a pleasant surprise, and MS seems to be taking things a step further. I would love to see MS put the same effort they have with 360 BC into a patching program of some sort where more games will see a substantial boost. I realize UWP is part of this, but hopefully they go they extra mile to make sure Scorpio really is a "Premium" experience.

More on Forza in a couple of hours:

The wheels in the sky keep on turning. Looking forward to it.

 

[TJP]

DF said that they ran Apex on a GTX 1080 with ultra settings and only it could match the Scorpio's performance. The GTX 1070 couldn't handle the weather.

I don't normally post in these threads but the hyperbole on both sides is becoming nuts.

Scorpio looks to be a great console; the GTX 10 series remain a great choice of card for PC gamers along with the RX 480.

DF said they tested Forza Apex with similar settings (whetever 'similar' actually means) at 4K on GTX 1060, 1070 and 1080. Frames were dropped on GTX 1060 (when extreme wet weather conditions kicked in), while GTX 1070 held firm with only the most intense wet weather conditions causing performance dips.

What and how many 'dips' DF recorded we don't know as DF do not elaborate on their test setup nor what these 'dips' actually were. The GTX 1080 held completely solid in all test cases as one would expect of card pushing 9TF.

We do have a post within this very thread of a NeoGAF member running FM Apex on a GTX 980Ti using ultra settings at 4K with 55% GPU usage and no drops from 60fps. This makes the DF claim odd because the 1070 is a more powerful GPU than the 980Ti.

Perhaps the 'deep dive' DF are promising on the FM 6 Scorpio demo will provide more information

 

[scently]

Nice, I guess DF will be trickling this information throughout the month.

Indeed. They clearly won't blow their whole load in one or two days. They mentioned over 60 customisation on the gpu in one of the vids. Richard also mentioned that Scorpio has hardware support for checkerboard rendering which I assume is one of the customisation. So yeah, I expect more articles and vids to come.

 

[cooldawn]

More on Forza in a couple of hours:

There's only a couple of games that would get me to buy an XBOX right now, Forza Motorsport being one of them...the other is Crackdown.

I have no doubt both of these games will be specifically designed to take advantage of Scorpio specs but I think Crackdown will be the one that's going to impress the most...be the most advanced. If TURN10 can get the same quality as PlayGround Games the seventh iteration should be very good.

The overarching theme is that games will sell me this console. These specs mean nothing without great games and right now I have more faith in Sony studios to develop and publish different experiences with technical prowess. I'm not convinced Microsoft have the same impact.

E3 is going to be very, very interesting.

 

[leeh]

Damn, now that you mention it you're right. That looks like a FH3 HDR skybox running on Forza 6. Holy shit if they can get that at 60FPS I'm impressed.

Now it's mentioned, yeah, that's definitely an FH3 skybox. Dynamic weather as well? Feel like we're looking at an early Forza 7 there, or at least, Forza 6 on the updated engine.

I want to see a screen with 16AF.

 

[Terbinator]

More on Forza in a couple of hours:

it'snothing.gif

 

[Fredrik]

Sorry but why is that even relevant to this topic.

lol?

It isn't, just complained a bit about being pissed that the upgrades came too early and replied that Xbox One hasn't been out 4 years everywhere, more like 2.5 years at some places.

 

[pitchfork]

Now it's mentioned, yeah, that's definitely an FH3 skybox. Dynamic weather as well? Feel like we're looking at an early Forza 7 there, or at least, Forza 6 on the updated engine.

I want to see a screen with 16AF.

Forza Horizon 3 already blows my mind visually on my current X1. Cannot wait to see this running at 4K!

Gears 4 is another i'm looking forward too. Already finished the campaign twice, but saving my insane run for Scorpio : )

 

[Jumeira]

More on Forza in a couple of hours:

Nice, got something to look forward to with my tea later.

 

[Captain Tuttle]

Regarding potential customers I don't think MS is targeting Pro owners, those people tend to be the "hardcore", invested in the PlayStation brand and, let's face it, the difference between Scorpio and Pro isn't big enough for many to leap over. I think this is targeted towards people who have the original Xbone (me), PS4 owners who didn't upgrade to Pro and especially 360 owners who crossed over to PlayStation because of the disastrous launch of Xbox One. They left because of power (and price) among other things that have been addressed. I think MS is hoping they can get them back.

 

[leeh]

Forza Horizon 3 already blows my mind visually on my current X1. Cannot wait to see this running at 4K!

Gears 4 is another i'm looking forward too. Already finished the campaign twice, but saving my insane run for Scorpio : )

Me too. I recently bought blizzard mountain when it was on sale, and I was blown away by that.

Just thinking about that in 4k with extra niceities on top. Oh my.

 

[arhra]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...-motorsport-on-project-scorpio-the-full-story

 

[Colbert]

Forza Motorsport on Scorpio: the full story:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-forza-motorsport-on-project-scorpio-the-full-story

 

[Theoris]

Forza Motorsport on Scorpio: the full story:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-forza-motorsport-on-project-scorpio-the-full-story

Is 'prove out' an actual term? They're using the term a lot. Enjoyable read, E3 should be fun.

 

[Colbert]

Is 'prove out' an actual term? They're using the term a lot! Enjoyable read, E3 should be fun.

IDK I am a german guy. And yes E3 will be very interesting!

The surfeit of memory bandwidth in Project Scorpio ensures that the additional overhead of these assets only hits performance by one per cent.

That quote is unreal!

 

[Liabe Brave]

New information from the Forza video:

The version of Forza that Mr. Leadbetter was shown definitely did include optimizations for Scorpio (which I was assuming, but is confirmed here).

The cranked-up version of Forza that maxed out the GPU did not have all settings at PC ultra. The player car was using a lower LOD model, and the AA was at a lower setting. (At least; we don't know if anything else was set lower too.)

Though other studios are getting very positive results porting to Scorpio, they aren't seeing the same level of performance as Forza.

Final devkits have not been distributed yet.

 

[Space_nut]

Also wasn't Jez confirmed all kits out now are just using 80% and the new SDK in June will allow devs using 100% of devkit

If so that says a lot too

 

[Liabe Brave]

Also wasn't Jez confirmed all kits out now are just using 80% and the new SDK in June will allow devs using 100% of devkit

If so that says a lot too

I'd be wary of unadorned rounded percentages with no further detail. That typically means they are illustrative only, and not based on any real data.

Also, I'm sure it's important to Microsoft that the final devkits will allow more performance, since it seems that developers besides Turn10 are not getting to native 4K in every case.

 

[leeh]

I'd be wary of unadorned rounded percentages with no further detail. That typically means they are illustrative only, and not based on any real data.

Also, I'm sure it's important to Microsoft that the final devkits will allow more performance, since it seems that developers besides Turn10 are not getting to native 4K in every case.

I'm going to take an educated guess and say this was a 20% down clock from final hardware due to the heat that this thing would be kicking out on that APU.

Needs final hardware with the cooling system to hit that 100% and not overheat.

 

[Space_nut]

I'm going to take an educated guess and say this was a 20% down clock from final hardware due to the heat that this thing would be kicking out on that APU.

Needs final hardware with the cooling system to hit that 100%.

That is true the cooling system alone is very much sophisticated. The research alone that went into it for Surface pro is astonishing as it's the thinnist super power pc there is. Also that power tech they are using to distrubute power to individual chips on the SOC to their own unique power needs is crazy

 

[Colbert]

I'm going to take an educated guess and say this was a 20% down clock from final hardware due to the heat that this thing would be kicking out on that APU.

Needs final hardware with the cooling system to hit that 100%.

I personally think it was the driver and some parts of the API were not ready at this point in time. We all know the efforts of AMD and NVIDIA on PC on their drivers and the time goes by until they really work correctly.

 

[scently]

New information from the Forza video:

The version of Forza that Mr. Leadbetter was shown definitely did include optimizations for Scorpio (which I was assuming, but is confirmed here).

The cranked-up version of Forza that maxed out the GPU did not have all settings at PC ultra. The player car was using a lower LOD model, and the AA was at a lower setting. (At least; we don't know if anything else was set lower too.)

Though other studios are getting very positive results porting to Scorpio, they aren't seeing the same level of performance as Forza.

Final devkits have not been distributed yet.

It is in the article, they ramped up all gpu settings to ultra, including lod. The lod was set such that all the cars, including the furthest from the camera is at the lod as the closest to the camera.

And the level of success was not qualified only that this level of success is not unique to Forza but is been seen elsewhere. Ofcourse you can't expect the same of performance among all games. They all have different requirement.

 

[Liabe Brave]

I'm going to take an educated guess and say this was a 20% down clock from final hardware due to the heat that this thing would be kicking out on that APU.

Needs final hardware with the cooling system to hit that 100% and not overheat.

Your guess is almost certainly wrong. In the article, it's explained that in January, Turn10 built their own "devkit" out of separate Scorpio components just hooked up and lying around. A big PC case fan blowing over the silicon was sufficient to cool it (until it vibrated out of alignment!).

Also, as I said before a figure like "80%" is liable to not be actually pegged to any real metric. It's probably a glorified synonym for "most".

It is in the article, they ramped up all gpu settings to ultra, including lod. The lod was set such that all the cars, including the furthest from the camera is at the lod as the closest to the camera.

Yes, the LOD is extended to all cars. But the player car remained at LOD1, whereas on PC the highest setting actually puts the player car at LOD0. AA was also not at PC ultra levels. We don't know if anything else was similarly not maxed out.

And the level of success was not qualified only that this level of success is not unique to Forza but is been seen elsewhere.

Actually, the quote from Microsoft implies the opposite, that this level of success is not being seen by other teams:

Chris [Tector, Turn10]'s experience is not atypical of what we've seen from partners we've had in - varying, different degrees of results but all positive.

Since Turn10's results were to hit 4K at the same framerate as standard Xbox One, any "different degrees of results" would mean developers were not getting all the way to that target.

 

[leeh]

Your guess is almost certainly wrong. In the article, it's explained that in January, Turn10 built their own "devkit" out of separate Scorpio components just hooked up and lying around. A big PC case fan blowing over the silicon was sufficient to cool it (until it vibrated out of alignment!).

Also, as I said before a figure like "80%" is liable to not be actually pegged to any real metric. It's probably a glorified synonym for "most".

It wasn't Turn10 who built it, it was someone from the Direct3D team.

I can't imagine loose parts forming a console which is in debug puts out all its power. The debugging may of taken up that 20%.

Considering the same article mentions they weren't allowed to see it on near-final hardware, suggests there's a difference.

Yes, the LOD is extended to all cars. But the player car remained at LOD1, whereas on PC the highest setting actually puts the player car at LOD0. AA was also not at PC ultra levels. We don't know if anything else was similarly not maxed out.

Receipts please.

 

[CariusD]

So it wasn't just 2 days like the original article was quoting not to say that it can't be but there is a difference.

"The process of getting ForzaTech up and running on the makeshift Project Scorpio hardware took just two days, and according to Chris Tector, the majority of that time was adapting the codebase from an earlier XDK [the PC-based development environment] that dated to just after Forza Motorsport 6's ship-date."

 

[scently]

Your guess is almost certainly wrong. In the article, it's explained that in January, Turn10 built their own "devkit" out of separate Scorpio components just hooked up and lying around. A big PC case fan blowing over the silicon was sufficient to cool it (until it vibrated out of alignment!).

Also, as I said before a figure like "80%" is liable to not be actually pegged to any real metric. It's probably a glorified synonym for "most".


Yes, the LOD is extended to all cars. But the player car remained at LOD1, whereas on PC the highest setting actually puts the player car at LOD0. AA was also not at PC ultra levels. We don't know if anything else was similarly not maxed out.


Actually, the quote from Microsoft implies the opposite, that this level of success is not being seen by other teams:



Since Turn10's results were to hit 4K at the same framerate as standard Xbox One, any "different degrees of results" would mean developers were not getting all the way to that target.

No. PC is not at LOD0. That's only available in Autovista/photomode.

He said it is "not atypical" meaning it is typical. You are misunderstanding the statement. Varying degrees is to be expected, every game is different. Even this game goes through varying degrees of gpu utilisation. You know this.

 

[JaggedSac]

Actually, the quote from Microsoft implies the opposite, that this level of success is not being seen by other teams:



Since Turn10's results were to hit 4K at the same framerate as standard Xbox One, any "different degrees of results" would mean developers were not getting all the way to that target.

"Not atypical" means the Turn 10 results are similar to other dev's results with the hardware.

Should have just said typical, double negative and all that.

 

[Syrus]

Liabe , dont be a debby downer

This stuff looks great

Hopefully no cardboard people

 

[Jaguar Victory]

So it wasn't just 2 days like the original article was quoting not to say that it can't be but there is a difference.

I think you're confusing yourself.

Liabe , dont be a debby downer

This stuff looks great

Hopefully no cardboard people

That whole cardboard uproar was so dumb. The crowds looked juuuust fine as cardboard people. Who stops in the middle of a closed circuit racer to try to get all angles of a crowd?

 

[Liabe Brave]

It wasn't Turn10 who built it, it was someone from the Direct3D team.

You're correct, I missed that detail. My apologies to Matt Lee, who actually did the work.

Receipts please.

Given to you in the other thread where you asked.

No. PC is not at LOD0. That's only available in Autovista/photomode.

No, Autovista is LOD-1. PC is at LOD0. The demo appears to have been at LOD1 (though for all cars, not just the player car like on Xbox One).

He said it is "not atypical" meaning it is typical.

"Not atypical" means the Turn 10 results are similar to other dev's results with the hardware.

Should have just said typical, double negative and all that.

The reason people resort to weird locutions like "not atypical" is to avoid committing to strong claims. Mr. Gammill's further elaboration has two parts: that all devs are seeing positive results, but also varying from what Turn10 is getting. So the results are indeed typical, in the sense that things are going well for everyone. But they are not identical, in that they differ from Turn10 who were able to hit 4K at target framerate.

 

[jroc74]

I'm in the same boat and that's why I'm asking the questions that I've been asking.

I don't want to buy a Scorpio for a significantly higher price than a PS4 Pro, only to realize that there's no discernable difference in any third party title that I'm interested in and that I could have saved money by just buying a Pro.

EDIT: I just realized that the Sony first-party exclusives that I'm excited about - if I want to play them in their definitive versions, I'm going to have to buy a Pro anyways.

Shit, that means I'll have to have a Pro and a Scorpio to ease my OCD about only playing the definitive versions of games that I want ... my wallet is already aching

This is me to a tee. Just in case I already bought some XBO games that I was saving for PS4 Pro. lol

 

[JaggedSac]

The reason people resort to weird locutions like "not atypical" is to avoid committing to strong claims. Mr. Gammill's further elaboration has two parts: that all devs are seeing positive results, but also varying from what Turn10 is getting. So the results are indeed typical, in the sense that things are going well for everyone. But they are not identical, in that they differ from Turn10 who were able to hit 4K at target framerate.

You are injecting the 4k target part, that was not said.

 

[Liabe Brave]

Liabe , dont be a debby downer

This stuff looks great

Hopefully no cardboard people

I'm trying to be accurate. I'm sorry if you find that less than exciting. Would it help at all if I said I expect Forza to look great on Scorpio when it comes out?

As for cardboard people, well, we don't know what Forza Motorsport 7 will look like. But this is what ForzaTech looks like right now on Scorpio (cropped from 4K, not scaled):

 

[scently]

You're correct, I missed that detail. My apologies to Matt Lee, who actually did the work.


Given to you in the other thread where you asked.


No, Autovista is LOD-1. PC is at LOD0. The demo appears to have been at LOD1 (though for all cars, not just the player car like on Xbox One).



The reason people resort to weird locutions like "not atypical" is to avoid committing to strong claims. Mr. Gammill's further elaboration has two parts: that all devs are seeing positive results, but also varying from what Turn10 is getting. So the results are indeed typical, in the sense that things are going well for everyone. But they are not identical, in that they differ from Turn10 who were able to hit 4K at target framerate.

You are going to have to provide prove of that.

As for the second bolded, that is you interpreting it subjectively.

 

[Canklestank]

The reason people resort to weird locutions like "not atypical" is to avoid committing to strong claims. Mr. Gammill's further elaboration has two parts: that all devs are seeing positive results, but also varying from what Turn10 is getting. So the results are indeed typical, in the sense that things are going well for everyone. But they are not identical, in that they differ from Turn10 who were able to hit 4K at target framerate.

Jumping in here, but this is my interpretation: Forza is hitting 4K/60 with a lot of headroom. Other teams are varying on how much headroom they actually have, but most of them have been positive in the sense that they are hitting 4K and target framerate with minimal effort. If they weren't getting target framerate at 4K, how would that be positive? This is a box designed to run 900p XO games at 4K. That's the point.

 

[op_ivy]

You're correct, I missed that detail. My apologies to Matt Lee, who actually did the work.


Given to you in the other thread where you asked.


No, Autovista is LOD-1. PC is at LOD0. The demo appears to have been at LOD1 (though for all cars, not just the player car like on Xbox One).



The reason people resort to weird locutions like "not atypical" is to avoid committing to strong claims. Mr. Gammill's further elaboration has two parts: that all devs are seeing positive results, but also varying from what Turn10 is getting. So the results are indeed typical, in the sense that things are going well for everyone. But they are not identical, in that they differ from Turn10 who were able to hit 4K at target framerate.

I don't have direct experience with forza apex, but rich clearly says that the scorpio demo with all cars at lod1 is the highest you can do in game, even on apex, outside of autovistas lod0. He mentions fh3 can do lod0 in game.

 

[paulogy]

The thing that bugs me about that stationary photo they keep referring to: the cars are all in starting formation, right? As in, stationary. It should be relative easy to render that shot given there is no motion, or even player input considered, at that point. So of course utilization will be low.

It reminds me of the excellent screenshots that are taken in a photo mode, once the action is paused, and all spare compute cycles can be used for better anti-aliasing and other lighting effects.

That new Turn10 piece was very interesting and answered a lot of questions I had about why the cars were in formation like that (they have them racing around the track like a train!)

 

[Liabe Brave]

You are going to have to provide prove of that.

TheAdmiester brought this up.

As for the second bolded, that is you interpreting it subjectively.

Why he used "not atypical" is speculative, yes. But that Mr. Gammill said results were typically positive, but not all as successful as Turn10, is simply what he said.

Jumping in here, but this is my interpretation: Forza is hitting 4K/60 with a lot of headroom. Other teams are varying on how much headroom they actually have, but most of them have been positive in the sense that they are hitting 4K and target framerate with minimal effort. If they weren't getting target framerate at 4K, how would that be positive? This is a box designed to run 900p XO games at 4K. That's the point.

That's possible, but it seems unlikely. Final devkits haven't even gone out to developers, and the ones they currently have don't perform as well. Since Scorpio is designed to hit 4K, it would be very shocking if everybody was hitting 4K already with machines that weren't as powerful as Scorpio.

I don't have direct experience with forza apex, but rich clearly says that the scorpio demo with all cars at lod1 is the highest you can do in game, even on apex, outside of autovistas lod0. He mentions fh3 can do lod0 in game.

I too am getting this information from others, but Forza-savvy GAF members say that Autovista is actually considered LOD-1. LOD0 is available only for the player car, only on PC. LOD1 is the player car on Xbox One, with field cars being lower.

The Scorpio demo ran with all field cars set to the same LOD (which is probably not as shocking and "wasteful" as Turn10 and Digital Foundry imply). In the screenshot of the demo, all cars were at LOD1. In the maxed out version, Turn10 says they were all LOD0. That's probably the case, but we have no actual evidence of it, and they were inaccurate with their claims about other settings in the same demo. So perhaps a grain of salt is needed.