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Why Spiderman's QTEs/button prompts get a free pass while other games got crucified?

Didnt the order have like 2 qte's in total?
Also far too mich exaggeration here.
Its a post battle setpiece, the swinging wasnt a qte, neither was the running,
And i dont even see the problem, do people think devs can leave the same scenes, not add button prompts and youd be able to figure it out?
Or do you want them to scrap cinematics so you can feel like a less casual gamer or something?
Hell people to this day praise the posiedon fight in gow as one of the best in gaming and thats riddled with qte's
 

JOKERACN7

Member
I'm not a fan of the Arkham combat either but this comparison you keep making to Bayonetta and Ninja Gaiden is both ridiculous and obnoxious. They're completely different games with completely different goals and the game design reflects this. At least compare it to something remotely comparable with it, like Yakuza or Sleeping Dogs, as those combat systems have far more depth than the Arkham games.

As far as the Arkham combat system goes, a big problem with it, particularly in the sequels, is that it has the depth of a paddling pool and yet combat is basically 80% of those games. Their shitty open worlds are filled solely with enemies, no civilians or anything, so there's fights around every corner. Any time they want a big moment they throw you into a fight with a hundred dudes. Combat challenges are a big thing. And so on.

So long as Spider-Man balances things properly, a shallow combat system (and we still don't know it is, none of us have played it) really wouldn't be that bad.

Are you suggesting Batman Arkham series is not a beat'em up? c'mon :D
You lterally beat them up in the game :D Just because it's categorized as "Action Adventure" doesn't mean that it's not a beat'em up, or are you suggesting Bayonetta is not a beat'em up? I don't get it, it absolutely makes sense to compare the two, and even if we go by the norm, there you go:

http://i.imgur.com/nMFz974.jpg

uMHKH



Tbh, I haven't played Yakuza so I can't really weigh in on that, but Batman is way better than Sleeping Dogs both in terms of depth and feel, it's not even close (I'd like it if you explain why Batman is not deep and Sleeping Dogs is)
As I said, Batman has nailed the feel factor but it's not as deep as it should be, while Spider-Man, based on what we've seen, falls flat on both feel and depth aspects.

And again, don't get me wrong, I've never claimed that this game is not gonna be fun or sth, I'm only addressing combat and stealth here, that's it.
 

Keihart

Member
Are you suggesting Batman Arkham series is not a beat'em up? c'mon :D
You lterally beat them up in the game :D Just because it's categorized as "Action Adventure" doesn't mean that it's not a beat'em up, or are you suggesting Bayonetta is not a beat'em up? I don't get it, it absolutely makes sense to compare the two, and even if we go by the norm, there you go:

http://i.imgur.com/nMFz974.jpg

uMHKH



Tbh, I haven't played Yakuza so I can't really weigh in on that, but Batman is way better than Sleeping Dogs both in terms of depth and feel, it's not even close.
As I said, Batman has nailed the feel factor but it's not as deep as it should be, while Spider-Man, based on what we've seen, falls flat on both feel and depth aspects.

And again, don't get me wrong, I've never claimed that this game is not gonna be fun or sth, I'm only addressing combat and stealth here, that's it.

From the footage, there is no auto counter on Spiderman, that alone makes it better to me, It also has a lot of eviroment interaction wich also makes it better and different. Batman combat is pretty shallow even for the style or genre it is on.
 
Bayonetta is a character action game. It lives and dies on its combat, which takes precise skill and finesse. The Arkham games do not live and die on their combat as they have other game play systems that take significant prevalence, not to mention the combat does not take the amount of skill a character action game requires. The comparison is way off base.
 

JOKERACN7

Member
From the footage, there is no auto counter on Spiderman, that alone makes it better to me, It also has a lot of eviroment interaction wich also makes it better and different. Batman combat is pretty shallow even for the style or genre it is on.

Auto-counter is one of the reasons that holds Batman back, however, when you play on hard it's not there anymore. And Spider-man is so slow, you can easily counter them, at least that's how it looked like.
Environment interaction is also there in Batman Arkham series and I won't comment on how Spider-Man has done it as we haven't seen enough to pass a judgement, but Batman Arkham did a good job with it, I suggest you watch some gameplay footage of Batman Arkham for recollection, no offense, it's just that I feel like ppl don't exactly recall how was it.
I also mentioned that it's not deep but still, it's better than its western counterparts as it has done a great job with the feel factor
 

JOKERACN7

Member
Bayonetta is a character action game. It lives and dies on its combat, which takes precise skill and finesse. The Arkham games do not live and die on their combat as they have other game play systems that take significant prevalence, not to mention the combat does not take the amount of skill a character action game requires. The comparison is way off base.

Damn I hate that term and I have no idea why ppl on Gaf use it so much :D
That's not a good excuse honestly, look I'm a fan of the series, I love it to death, I've had a shit ton of fun with it, but I would've loved it more if it had more depth, there was room for improvement.
And still, the comparison makes absolute sense, we're specifically talking about combat here, the excuse that you guys are making is nonsensical, you guys say that it's okay for a game to have a shallow combat because it has other systems, why we should settle for less? it has other systems? great, why not have a better combat system?
 
Auto-counter is one of the reasons that holds Batman back, however, when you play on hard it's not there anymore. And Spider-man is so slow, you can easily counter them, at least that's how it looked like.
Auto-counter? What do you mean by that, you don't automatically counter attacks in the Arkham games
 

camac002

Member
20? In a previous thread you put up an image showing 13, and not even all of those were actual QTEs.
Images 6,8,9 and 10 aren't QTEs.
7whE7Kg.jpg

I can't believe people think 6,8,9 and 10 are QTEs. That means the Arkham series has the most QTEs ever in it, since you get a prompt every time you can use your grapple on something...
 

Keihart

Member
Auto-counter is one of the reasons that holds Batman back, however, when you play on hard it's not there anymore. And Spider-man is so slow, you can easily counter them, at least that's how it looked like.
Environment interaction is also there in Batman Arkham series and I won't comment on how Spider-Man has done it as we haven't seen enough to pass a judgement, but Batman Arkham did a good job with it, I suggest you watch some gameplay footage of Batman Arkham for recollection, no offense, it's just that I feel like ppl don't exactly recall how was it.
I also mentioned that it's not deep but still, it's better than its western counterparts as it has done a great job with the feel factor

I completly forgot about enviro take downs, but is not so different from watchdogs implementation , even yakuza ones are more fun to execute. This don't seem to be takedowns at all. I had no idea that hard had no auto counters, i should give it a shot then, i hate that.
 

Cracklox

Member
Didnt the order have like 2 qte's in total?
Also far too mich exaggeration here.
Its a post battle setpiece, the swinging wasnt a qte, neither was the running,
And i dont even see the problem, do people think devs can leave the same scenes, not add button prompts and youd be able to figure it out?
Or do you want them to scrap cinematics so you can feel like a less casual gamer or something?
Hell people to this day praise the posiedon fight in gow as one of the best in gaming and thats riddled with qte's

Have sorta skimmed through the thread, but thanks for this. Sums up my sentiments here.

And be quiet about GOW3. It gets a pass because it's GOW remember. Even though the QTE's there are basically the very definition of press 'A' to awesome, and don't always make a lot of sense contextually. But yay God of War right. And don't get me wrong, I love the series, I just find it strange why a lot of people accept the QTE's in those games as great, when there's honestly better implementation in alot of other things. See Ninja Blade
come at me

Anyway, Spidey looks great and can't wait to get my hands on it.
 
Have sorta skimmed through the thread, but thanks for this. Sums up my sentiments here.

And be quiet about GOW3. It gets a pass because it's GOW remember. Even though the QTE's there are basically the very definition of press 'A' to awesome, and don't always make a lot of sense contextually. But yay God of War right. And don't get me wrong, I love the series, I just find it strange why a lot of people accept the QTE's in those games as great, when there's honestly better implementation in alot of other things. See Ninja Blade
come at me

Anyway, Spidey looks great and can't wait to get my hands on it.

Exactly , they were already dated by the time gow 3 hit, it literally asked you to walk up to the rotating circle and press circle to see awesome stuff, or do the last bit of the boss fight again.
what we had in the demo was fairly organic stuff that could be a pre recorded cutscene or a qte ,
i dunno what failing them would do but does it not make sense to fall down the helicopter after getting hit if you dont sling back to the helicopter it time?
or would people rather fall down , then come back up while the boss just stands suspended in mid airing waiting in his half buster chopper?

and hell imma be honest , those webshots trapping the helicopter in between the two buildings is awesome and spiderman as hell, if getting that means i feel less like a hardcore gamer then so be it.Yes im doing press x to awesome stuff if thats what people wanna call it.
hell im not even sure if its like arkham combat, im struggling to spot those heavy grounded counters that the entire thing is about, the combat pacing is complately different and theres way more verticality.
it seems these days , the combat in an action game depending on its pace cannot be more than 3 things
slow=souls > faster=arkham > fastest=bayonetta
 

gamerMan

Member
I can't believe people think 6,8,9 and 10 are QTEs. That means the Arkham series has the most QTEs ever in it, since you get a prompt every time you can use your grapple on something...

You are right. Here is the updated one. Both 7 and 10 require multiple button presses. For 7, you have to fill the bar up to pull off the panel on the helicopter. For 10, you have to shoot multiple webs to catch the helicopter. That's why I estimated about 20 button prompts.

 

xxracerxx

Don't worry, I'll vouch for them.
Hey remember those games that are out and all the options they have that people have experienced? Well that game is eight thousand times better than this 9 minute demo we just saw of a game that won't be out for 8 months.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
For what is worth, QTE’s are generally unjustly and ignorantly harassed as if they were the ultimate evil and they had no place in games (which they do, especially as gamers misjudge how cool certain action sequences can be without them overestimating their own skills IMHO).
 

c0Zm1c

Member
Fun Fact: Guitar Hero was originally designed as a QTE game

Well, technically, Guitar Hero (along with almost every rhythm game I've played) is a QTE game.

I've seen a few people in these threads saying QTEs have their place: more than any other genre, rhythm games are possibly the actual best place for them, since the gameplay is usually built almost exclusively around quick time events.
 
Damn I hate that term and I have no idea why ppl on Gaf use it so much :D
That's not a good excuse honestly, look I'm a fan of the series, I love it to death, I've had a shit ton of fun with it, but I would've loved it more if it had more depth, there was room for improvement.
And still, the comparison makes absolute sense, we're specifically talking about combat here, the excuse that you guys are making is nonsensical, you guys say that it's okay for a game to have a shallow combat because it has other systems, why we should settle for less? it has other systems? great, why not have a better combat system?
Probably cause that's what it is and it doesn't fit your argument. It is not just a beat'em up. Beat 'em up is a larger umbrella term, Bayonetta, Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, Metal Gear Rising are all a specific type of game that aren't remotely similar in execution to the Arkham series. It's a narrative you're pushing that doesn't fit at all

Combat doesnt exist in a bubble. Arkham has shallower combat and that is okay because it's not solely dependent on it with the games being built for a wider audience. Your criticism is very vague and your demands for more are even vaguer honestly. You keep asking for more depth, why don't you elaborate on what you want? People probably aren't largely demanding for a better combat system because they are already satisfied with how the combat has been implemented, and critical reception seems to back up Rockseady here.
 

Spinluck

Member
Probably cause that's what it is and it doesn't fit your argument. It is not just a beat'em up. Beat 'em up is a larger umbrella term, Bayonetta, Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, Metal Gear Rising are all a specific type of game that aren't remotely similar in execution to the Arkham series. It's a narrative you're pushing that doesn't fit at all

Combat doesnt exist in a bubble. Arkham has shallower combat and that is okay because it's not solely dependent on it with the games being built for a wider audience. Your criticism is very vague and your demands for more are even vaguer honestly. You keep asking for more depth, why don't you elaborate on what you want? People probably aren't largely demanding for a better combat system because they are already satisfied with how the combat has been implemented, and critical reception seems to back up Rockseady here.

Yeah, I was thinking that as well.

Seems like he's twisting things to fit his narrative and isn't really using great examples to illustrate his point.
 

JOKERACN7

Member
Probably cause that's what it is and it doesn't fit your argument. It is not just a beat'em up. Beat 'em up is a larger umbrella term, Bayonetta, Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, Metal Gear Rising are all a specific type of game that aren't remotely similar in execution to the Arkham series. It's a narrative you're pushing that doesn't fit at all

Combat doesnt exist in a bubble. Arkham has shallower combat and that is okay because it's not solely dependent on it with the games being built for a wider audience. Your criticism is very vague and your demands for more are even vaguer honestly. You keep asking for more depth, why don't you elaborate on what you want? People probably aren't largely demanding for a better combat system because they are already satisfied with how the combat has been implemented, and critical reception seems to back up Rockseady here.

Critical reception, with all due respect, means nothing. If we're going to take critical reception as some concrete fact, then why bother? let us all post MC scores and get done with it.

As I said, it's the same genre, the prevelant excuse for a game not having a deep combat system is exactly what you just said, it's the same excuse for the weak combat of RPGs like The Witcher 3, ppl are like "well, it's an RPG, what did you expect?" , I emphasis again, genre has nothing to do with how deep your combat system and mechanics are. It's like saying a movie which has a great story doesn't necessarily needs a compelling cinematography, you should work on delivering the best aspects of a product, just because you nail one aspect you shouldn't gloss over the rest.

Now about Batman Arkham series, as I previously stated, it nails the feel factor, it's fun and satysfying as hell, it's punchy, it's crunchy, and it's fast, which leads to a satisfying combat scenario, and I love this, but when it comes to depth, there are more elements in play, one is Skill Ceiling, meaning that there should be a difference between a rookie and a hardcore player, when skill ceiling is there, the players can express themselves, it's called Player Expression, the best instance for this is Bayonetta, just check out Youtube and see how hardcore players express themselves in that game and remind yourself of how you were doing, you can easily see the difference, now why this matters? this adds to the replayability value, the more time you put into it the more you salvage from it, now how Batman is not as deep as it should be? 1. The timing window is so generous and you get a warning! hence you can EASILY counter the attacks, this hurts the skill ceiling, 2. plenty of gadgets in combat often become redundant because they really don't add much, this hurts player expression, this is why you don't see an interesting freestyle footage from Batman, you as the player can not be expressive. 3. Regardless of challenge scenario, you can always go with a similar tactic and nail it, the game doesn't encourage you to try other tactics.

I can go deeper but I wanna refer you to a perfect video on this for further and better explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxRxh8Ka5H8 (Watch it from the beginning, tried to set the timer but don't know how :D)

The reason why Batman shines is because ppl categorize it as Action Adventure so it gets to be compared with Assassin's Creed, Sleeping Dogs, Shadow of Mordor, etc, which all have mediocre af combat, but when Japan beat-em ups come into play, Batman pales in comparison.

And I wanna say this again, Batman Arkham series is one of the best games I've ever played (It's in my top 10), I love it, I had a shit ton of fun with it, me being critical here doesn't mean that I don't enjoy it, I'm just saying it could've been better, it could've had more depth, that's it.
 
Critical reception, with all due respect, means nothing. If we're going to take critical reception as some concrete fact, then why bother? let us all post MC scores and get done with it.

As I said, it's the same genre, the prevelant excuse for a game not having a deep combat system is exactly what you just said, it's the same excuse for the weak combat of RPGs like The Witcher 3, ppl are like "well, it's an RPG, what did you expect?" , I emphasis again, genre has nothing to do with how deep your combat system and mechanics are. It's like saying a movie which has a great story doesn't necessarily needs a compelling cinematography, you should work on delivering the best aspects of a product, just because you nail one aspect you shouldn't gloss over the rest.
The thing is that you have this rigid definition of genre and what a genre must do. Batman isn't in the same genre as a DMC or Bayonetta, nor is it even trying to be any way at all comparable to Japanese beat-em-ups. Even if you wanted to classify them all under some extremely broad genre of brawler, Batman's combat being less complex than a DMC or Bayonetta doesn't make it worse, anymore than Burnout not being as complicated as Gran Turisomo doesn't make it a worse racer, but rather a different kind of racer with a different focus and gameplay designed to fulfill that focus

And genre absolutely has an influence on mechanical depth. For example, one would not expect the kind of depth in a racing sim to be found in an arcade racer, and an arcade racer is not a worse game because it doesn't have simulation aspects
 

JOKERACN7

Member
The thing is that you have this rigid definition of genre and what a genre must do. Batman isn't in the same genre as a DMC or Bayonetta, nor is it even trying to be any way at all comparable to Japanese beat-em-ups. Even if you wanted to classify them all under some extremely broad genre of brawler, Batman's combat being less complex than a DMC or Bayonetta doesn't make it worse, anymore than Burnout not being as complicated as Gran Turisomo doesn't make it a worse racer, but rather a different kind of racer with a different focus and gameplay designed to fulfill that focus

And genre absolutely has an influence on mechanical depth. For example, one would not expect the kind of depth in a racing sim to be found in an arcade racer, and an arcade racer is not a worse game because it doesn't have simulation aspects

I explained why Batman isn't as deep as it should be, do you have any counter argument to those points? Look, it's so simple, any game should have depth, do you agree with this or not? let's not even bring the genre argument here, I'm saying Batman could've had more depth, and I mentioned my points, if you have any counter argument to those, i'd be more than happy to hear.
And the comparison you're making with racers doesn't make sense, there's no sim/simcade/arcade in beat'em ups, is there? I've never even brought racers into this discussion, it's simply outta place.
 
That's so terrible.

When will developers drop heavily scripted pieces of shit like this.

Perfectly fine imho. I don't have a problem with QTE's or scripted things at all.

I am bored of the very shallow, go here, do this task (collect collectable) and move to next point. The big problem with open world games is they are starting to become a little stale.

Play Just Cause 3 or Mad Max and its just such a grind, with snippets of elements that make you think the games could be a lot more fun. So what if you meld linear games with open world mechanics.

So you have still the open world template, but you also intersperse it with very tight, linear segments when you want to tell a particular story element or boss. To me this is the perfect combination to keep it fresh.

I know its a totally different game but Wolfenstien was one of the best games in the last few years, because every time you are about to get bored, they brought something new to the table. Thats how I see these elements in Spider-Man. If they can make these events different each time, bring something new, then I'll enjoy doing everything else much more because I'll have something to look forward to.
 
I explained why Batman isn't as deep as it should be, do you have any counter argument to those points? Look, it's so simple, any game should have depth, do you agree with this or not? let's not even bring the genre argument here, I'm saying Batman could've had more depth, and I mentioned my points, if you have any counter argument to those, i'd be more than happy to hear.
And the comparison you're making with racers doesn't make sense, there's no sim/simcade/arcade in beat'em ups, is there? I've never even brought racers into this discussion, it's simply outta place.
You keep saying Batman is in the same genre as Bayonetta and Japanese best-em-ups, and because it's less deep and not as complex compared to such games, it's worse. And that saying otherwise is making excuses (a la The Witcher RPG comment)
As I said, it's the same genre...but when Japan beat-em ups come into play, Batman pales in comparison.

I was using the racing genre as a counterpoint to your perspective on genre, that being less complex or having less depth isn't inherent a flaw, even within the same genre (i.e. racers and Burnout/Gran Turismo, brawlers and Batman/Bayonetta).

You say that Batman isn't as deep as it should be, and I'm saying it's as deep as it needs to be for that individual game and what the focus, intent, pacing, etc of its gameplay is. (Also because it's not in the same genre/subgenre as Bayonetta and co, and thus having the same expectations is odd, such as saying an arcade racer is flawed because it has less complexity and depth than a racing sim)

Depth isn't the most important aspect when it comes to gameplay
 

I finally watched the gameplay trailer this afternoon and yeah, this one isn't for me.

I don't mind the occasional QTE, but it looks like every major setpiece in this game will be full of them.

The QTEs were part of a setpiece, not sure why people are getting up in arms about it

Probably because Naughty Dog proved almost eight years ago that it's possible to create great setpiece moments without them.
 

Bunta

Fujiwara Tofu Shop
I like how that image is being quoted, but let's ignore the fact in my post I pointed they're not even all QTEs.
 
I finally watched the gameplay trailer this afternoon and yeah, this one isn't for me.

I don't mind the occasional QTE, but it looks like every major setpiece in this game will be full of them.



Probably because Naughty Dog proved almost eight years ago that it's possible to create great setpiece moments without them.
Discussed in the other thread, but the difference is that Uncharted set-pieces just take the regular basic controls and craft chaos around them. The situations are extreme, but you're never doing anything that you couldn't do with the moment-to-moment running, jumping, climbing, swinging, etc.

While here, you're not merely trying to navigate. You'd need to navigate while simultaneously saving people and interacting with objects, through actions beyond what is possible with the regular controls. While also wanting to capture the kind of reflexes and acrobatics that Spidey would perform.
 
I like how that image is being quoted, but let's ignore the fact in my post I pointed they're not even all QTEs.

Heck, even if only half of those examples are QTEs, it really wouldn't change how I feel about this game (as of now, it's entirely possible further footage and impressions change my opinion).

Discussed in the other thread, but the difference is that Uncharted set-pieces just take the regular basic controls and craft chaos around them. The situations are extreme, but you're never doing anything that you couldn't do with the moment-to-moment running, jumping, climbing, swinging, etc.

While here, you're not merely trying to navigate. You'd need to navigate while simultaneously save people and interact with objects that with actions beyond what is possible with the regular controls. While also wanting to capture the kind of reflexes and acrobatics that Spidey would perform.

A fair point. If there are only a handful of setpieces like this, I'd probably be ok with that. However, I do feel like if you aren't able to create a great setpiece without resorting to a large number of QTEs, you probably just shouldn't bother, but I fully realize there are plenty of people who won't agree with me on this and that's fine.
 
Are you suggesting Batman Arkham series is not a beat'em up? c'mon :D
You lterally beat them up in the game :D Just because it's categorized as "Action Adventure" doesn't mean that it's not a beat'em up, or are you suggesting Bayonetta is not a beat'em up? I don't get it, it absolutely makes sense to compare the two, and even if we go by the norm, there you go:

http://i.imgur.com/nMFz974.jpg

uMHKH



Tbh, I haven't played Yakuza so I can't really weigh in on that, but Batman is way better than Sleeping Dogs both in terms of depth and feel, it's not even close (I'd like it if you explain why Batman is not deep and Sleeping Dogs is)
As I said, Batman has nailed the feel factor but it's not as deep as it should be, while Spider-Man, based on what we've seen, falls flat on both feel and depth aspects.

And again, don't get me wrong, I've never claimed that this game is not gonna be fun or sth, I'm only addressing combat and stealth here, that's it.

Uh, is that one poorly linked image meant to prove that they're absolutely both beat 'em ups? Do we have official videogame genre classifiers or something? The Arkham games are open world games with a variety of gameplay mechanics and focuses, including combat, stealth, traversal, driving (in Knight), puzzles and so on. Comparing it to Bayonetta, a series that is almost entirely focused around its combat, is ridiculous and it's incredible the way you keep ignoring the very obvious arguments that are being made about the differences between those two series. What next? Dark Souls has inferior combat to Bayonetta?

Nah, from what I remember of Sleeping Dogs (and I might be wrong, it's been a while), it has a lot of flaws but it has more depth than the Arkham games solely because it has reliable animations. Arkham's randomised animations are pure shit when it comes to combat mechanics. Pure style over substance. Not to say that's the worst thing but it isn't something that should be focused on as much as the Arkham games do IMO. That's largely why I enjoy Asylum far more than any of the sequels, it's a far better paced and balanced game.

Anyway, QTEs. I'm fine with their inclusion in the game, because it's not like you could do those crazy setpieces without them, but I feel like:
1. They're slightly over-used. I don't think you should need a QTE to duck under that generator (?) in the seventh image in that picture for example. The worst QTEs are the ones that involve pretty lame actions as a result and I think that one's pretty borderline.
2. They're huge and on screen for a while, presumably because you have to time the press correctly, which makes them way more noticeable than they otherwise would be. Cut that time down and make them smaller and I don't think they'd be as glaring.

The image is bullshit, of course. A number of them are just button prompts, not QTEs at all.
 

Visceir

Member
It's not just the QTE-s but the whole E3 showing (Slow-mo, QTEs, batman combat) felt very dated and slightly out of touch -- more like something you'd be maybe wowed by 5+ years ago.

I guess it doesn't help that all the closed doors showings were pretty much the same thing with no hands-on time. Insomniac isn't exactly a developer who I'd have 100% confidence in either.

I'll remain hopefully though that they'll actually manage to do something interesting with the open world and the Peter Parker part of the game.
 
It's not just the QTE-s but the whole E3 showing (Slow-mo, QTEs, batman combat) felt very dated and slightly out of touch -- more like something you'd be maybe wowed by 5+ years ago.

I guess it doesn't help that all the closed doors showings were pretty much the same thing with no hands-on time. Insomniac isn't exactly a developer who I'd have 100% confidence in either.

I'll remain hopefully though that they'll actually manage to do something interesting with the open world and the Peter Parker part of the game.

I think you did a pretty good job summing up how I feel about this title. The QTEs are really just one part of it.
 

gamerMan

Member
Discussed in the other thread, but the difference is that Uncharted set-pieces just take the regular basic controls and craft chaos around them. The situations are extreme, but you're never doing anything that you couldn't do with the moment-to-moment running, jumping, climbing, swinging, etc.

While here, you're not merely trying to navigate. You'd need to navigate while simultaneously save people and interact with objects that with actions beyond what is possible with the regular controls. While also wanting to capture the kind of reflexes and acrobatics that Spidey would perform.

Of course, this setpiece can't be playable because it was never designed around Spiderman's ingame moveset. If it was, it would be playable. There is no reason that this couldn't be designed in this way. Your assuming that the setpiece has to take place in this way and there are no other alternatives. The difference is that at the outset Naughty Dog designed their setpieces around the regular control scheme and wanted to make their set pieces playable. The first Uncharted had plenty of QTEs because these sequences were not designed around the basic controls.


In Uncharted 2, Naughty Dog made a conscious effort to do away with QTEs. See: Uncharted 2: 'moving away from QTE's was the way to go'


I mean you could design a car game like Road Blaster with complicated movement that could never be accomplished with basic controls.


Or you could make Burnout.



It all comes down to your game design.

In short, QTEs are a cheap way to make the player "DO" something cool without having to deal with the planning, logistics, and work of designing a sequence that makes use of the basic controls in the game.
 

Not Spaceghost

Spaceghost
honestly i've never had a problem with qte's as long as failing them doesn't lead to an insta game over scenario.

QTE's are a great way to compliment crazy cinematic moves that don't really have the possibility to be done through standard controls.

Asura's wrath had some of the best QTE's ever because completing the QTE mirrored the characters motions nearly 1:1 and felt satisfying as a result.
 

thill1985

Banned
While here, you're not merely trying to navigate. You'd need to navigate while simultaneously saving people and interacting with objects, through actions beyond what is possible with the regular controls. While also wanting to capture the kind of reflexes and acrobatics that Spidey would perform.

That is completely made up. Included as major portions of the QTE's here you are slinging web onto an enemy and attaching him to a beam and running while doing timed jumps. Those are both demonstrably doable seeing as Spider-Man was doing those exact things in this exact demo.
 
That is completely made up. Included as major portions of the QTE's here you are slinging web onto an enemy and attaching him to a beam and running while doing timed jumps. Those are both demonstrably doable seeing as Spider-Man was doing those exact things in this exact demo.
There's a big difference running up the crane then jumping and doing a sideways flip while simultaneously attaching webs to the crane and the building while swinging around the underside of said crane and landing back on it. Saying the sequence was just running and timed jumps is kind of reductive considering the simultaneous actions and fine control you'd need to do to achieve the same result

I do agree the first one that drops you into the first wasn't really necessary though
 

JOKERACN7

Member
Uh, is that one poorly linked image meant to prove that they're absolutely both beat 'em ups? Do we have official videogame genre classifiers or something? The Arkham games are open world games with a variety of gameplay mechanics and focuses, including combat, stealth, traversal, driving (in Knight), puzzles and so on. Comparing it to Bayonetta, a series that is almost entirely focused around its combat, is ridiculous and it's incredible the way you keep ignoring the very obvious arguments that are being made about the differences between those two series. What next? Dark Souls has inferior combat to Bayonetta?

Nah, from what I remember of Sleeping Dogs (and I might be wrong, it's been a while), it has a lot of flaws but it has more depth than the Arkham games solely because it has reliable animations. Arkham's randomised animations are pure shit when it comes to combat mechanics. Pure style over substance. Not to say that's the worst thing but it isn't something that should be focused on as much as the Arkham games do IMO. That's largely why I enjoy Asylum far more than any of the sequels, it's a far better paced and balanced game.

Anyway, QTEs. I'm fine with their inclusion in the game, because it's not like you could do those crazy setpieces without them, but I feel like:
1. They're slightly over-used. I don't think you should need a QTE to duck under that generator (?) in the seventh image in that picture for example. The worst QTEs are the ones that involve pretty lame actions as a result and I think that one's pretty borderline.
2. They're huge and on screen for a while, presumably because you have to time the press correctly, which makes them way more noticeable than they otherwise would be. Cut that time down and make them smaller and I don't think they'd be as glaring.

The image is bullshit, of course. A number of them are just button prompts, not QTEs at all.

Arkham Asylum is not an open-world, and the discussion is about combat, I brought up 3 reasons as to why it's not as deep as it should be and no one has been able to counter them, and the said 3 reasons have nothing to do with the genre. And you're saying Sleeping Dogs has more depth, but you gotta back up that claim, what do you exactly mean by "reliable animations"?
Dark Souls has a different sets of mechanics, it's distinguishing and has almost all the ingredients that I've mentioned for a good combat system, and as you can see this game and even Nioh have a rad combat system yet they're RPG, proving my main point that genre has nothing to do with how you nail the combat system, you can't be like " I'm not fully focused on combat so my shallow and dull combat system is forgivable"

I'd be willing to be more forgiving about QTEs if Spider-man had shown a better footage of its combat and stealth.
 

JOKERACN7

Member
You keep saying Batman is in the same genre as Bayonetta and Japanese best-em-ups, and because it's less deep and not as complex compared to such games, it's worse. And that saying otherwise is making excuses (a la The Witcher RPG comment)


I was using the racing genre as a counterpoint to your perspective on genre, that being less complex or having less depth isn't inherent a flaw, even within the same genre (i.e. racers and Burnout/Gran Turismo, brawlers and Batman/Bayonetta).

You say that Batman isn't as deep as it should be, and I'm saying it's as deep as it needs to be for that individual game and what the focus, intent, pacing, etc of its gameplay is. (Also because it's not in the same genre/subgenre as Bayonetta and co, and thus having the same expectations is odd, such as saying an arcade racer is flawed because it has less complexity and depth than a racing sim)

Depth isn't the most important aspect when it comes to gameplay

I think we gotta agree to disagree :D

I explained why Batman's combat is not deep, but you're saying it doesn't need to be, this is not how I analyse games, it's as if you guys decide which genres should have depth and which shouldn't, if it's an RPG then it's okay if it has a weak combat, I'm saying no it's not okay, you shouldn't excuse a game's shortcomings because of its genre.

Btw, Burnout series has enough mechanics to stand on its own feet, just because it's not a sim doesn't mean it's not deep, how about this? compare the latest NFS (in E3) with Burnout series, I'm sure you'll see which one has more depth.And you'll see again, genre has nothing to do with depth.

And I don't think we should continue the discussion, it was good, and I hope you guys get to agree with me one day :D
 

Spinluck

Member
Of course, this setpiece can't be playable because it was never designed around Spiderman's ingame moveset. If it was, it would be playable. There is no reason that this couldn't be designed in this way. Your assuming that the setpiece has to take place in this way and there are no other alternatives. The difference is that at the outset Naughty Dog designed their setpieces around the regular control scheme and wanted to make their set pieces playable. The first Uncharted had plenty of QTEs because these sequences were not designed around the basic controls.



In Uncharted 2, Naughty Dog made a conscious effort to do away with QTEs. See: Uncharted 2: 'moving away from QTE's was the way to go'


I mean you could design a car game like Road Blaster with complicated movement that could never be accomplished with basic controls.

Or you could make Burnout.

It all comes down to your game design.

In short, QTEs are a cheap way to make the player "DO" something cool without having to deal with the planning, logistics, and work of designing a sequence that makes use of the basic controls in the game.

The sequence is spectacular.

The camera angle, the animation, Spidey one liners, and music.

They nailed the Blockbuster larger than life Spider-Man feel, and I'm glad they aren't afraid of taking a little control from the player to deliver these moments.

They seem to have great talent on the production side, so props to them for showing it off. I am confident the gameplay will deliver, and hopefully there is a bit more variety in the set pieces... because some of the QTEs are a bit obnoxious.

But from what I've been gathering here, being control of every moment seems overrated to me. There are quite a bit of QTEs in Uncharted, but the prompts don't always pop up. If we're making a case against limited player control, then I think Uncharted is an incredibly poor example. ND is really good at hiding their scripted moments, and give the player an illusion of control in some scenarios.

If I'm just holding up on the analog stick just to bump into people down a narrow set path, then I might as well call it an interactive cutscene. Not that I'm complaining, I like it, another way to get the story across.
I think we gotta agree to disagree :D

I explained why Batman's combat is not deep, but you're saying it doesn't need to be, this is not how I analyse games, it's as if you guys decide which genres should have depth and which shouldn't, if it's an RPG then it's okay if it has a weak combat, I'm saying no it's not okay, you shouldn't excuse a game's shortcomings because of its genre.

Btw, Burnout series has enough mechanics to stand on its own feet, just because it's not a sim doesn't mean it's not deep, how about this? compare the latest NFS (in E3) with Burnout series, I'm sure you'll see which one has more depth.And you'll see again, genre has nothing to do with depth.

And I don't think we should continue the discussion, it was good, and I hope you guys get to agree with me one day :D

I was able to somewhat follow you before, but now I really don't get where you're coming from like at all.

Batman and Spider-Man are supposed to have combat on the level of Bayonetta now? What the fuck?

This is stupid. No one is deciding anything, they are 2 completely different games. This is like complaining that Uncharted doesn't have Max Payne 3 or Vanquished level combat, and that it doesn't have an excuse not to. It's a really stupid argument dude.

Anyway, I'm hoping the next Zelda gives me some Devil May Cry vibes with the combat! Link has a sword so no excuse!
 

JOKERACN7

Member
The sequence is spectacular.

The camera angle, the animation, Spidey one liners, and music.

They nailed the Blockbuster larger than life Spider-Man feel, and I'm glad they aren't afraid of taking a little control from the player to deliver these moments.

They seem to have great talent on the production side, so props to them for showing it off. I am confident the gameplay will deliver, and hopefully there is a bit more variety in the set pieces... because some of the QTEs are a bit obnoxious.

But from what I've been gathering here, being control of every moment seems overrated to me. There are quite a bit of QTEs in Uncharted, but the prompts don't always pop up. If we're making a case against limited player control, then I think Uncharted is an incredibly poor example. ND is really good at hiding their scripted moments, and give the player an illusion of control in some scenarios.

If I'm just holding up on the analog stick just to bump into people down a narrow set path, then I might as well call it an interactive cutscene. Not that I'm complaining, I like it, another way to get the story across.


I was able to somewhat follow you before, but now I really don't get where you're coming from like at all.

Batman and Spider-Man are supposed to have combat on the level of Bayonetta now? What the fuck?

This is stupid. No one is deciding anything, they are 2 completely different games. This is like complaining that Uncharted doesn't have Max Payne 3 or Vanquished level combat, and that it doesn't have an excuse not to. It's a really stupid argument dude.

Anyway, I'm hoping the next Zelda gives me some Devil May Cry vibes with the combat! Link has a sword so no excuse!

*chuckles* smh

This post is so wrong on so many levels that I don't know where to begin, no offense, but it is. But I'm really curious on one thing, why do you think Uncharted (the trilogy) should get a free pass for its poor gunplay and overall combat? why exactly?

Btw, I'm so glad that ND wasn't thinking like you when creating UC4, because UC4 has significantly overhauled its combat system and gunplay.
 
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