It's almost as if it's a device designed to appeal to people who want it to go away, but actually just allows it to easily exist
edit: you also get to correct people while saying it, so that's a plus
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Female only gaming event cancelled following online harassment
- Thread starter kulapik
- Start date
It's almost as if it's a device designed to appeal to people who want it to go away, but actually just allows it to easily exist
edit: you also get to correct people while saying it, so that's a plus
sol740
Member
It is telling that instead of organizing a "men-only" gaming event/meet they just shit all over the women wanting to have their gathering. It's not about any of the bullshit they spew, it's misogyny, plain as day.
Organizing such an event would be like shooting fish in a barrel too, hell I organize one every week in Arma 3. We are just so lonely.
Organizing such an event would be like shooting fish in a barrel too, hell I organize one every week in Arma 3. We are just so lonely.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I wonder how many people criticizing this event were aware of this one and similarly complained
http://kotaku.com/5824084/well-thats-one-way-to-combat-misogyny-in-gaming
http://kotaku.com/5824084/well-thats-one-way-to-combat-misogyny-in-gaming
Gotdatmoney
Member
You can, I wont because I'm not naive enough to believe these people are arguing in good faith.
I'm very comfortable with the gamers are trash argument in the context of this discussion. Whether you think it's a moral high road is irrelevant to me frankly.
This is that both sides shit I was talking about. It's naive to think that this is an argument that is occurring in good faith. You can very clearly read the thread and see squarely where I sit on this issue. It's not a hit and run approach. So I don't have to sit here and pretend "oh its bad both ways" when one side is the discussion of the literal intimidation of women trying to enjoy gaming and the other was actually "Fuck you, gamers aren't trash!1!1!" even though in this instance and many many others if we wanna be serious, ya we as a group are.
This is fragility. Gaming as a whole is fragile and resistant to change. It's resistant to being called out. There isn't some constructive critique about "some" vs "all" to be had here. When gaming stops being shit about including others I will refrain from referring to it as a tire fire.
Take issue if you want. I'm not telling you how to feel.
If I have no other argument. . . Lmao read the thread. It's clearly laid out what my opinion is. Which is why I know you are not arguing in good faith which is literally why I dont give a shit to entertain both sides
Bobo Dakes
Member
It's not about you, but you're making it about you. That's what makes this thread so frustrating.
Only to fragile man-babies who can't possibly allow a female-only event to happen.
By telling women that they don't need or shouldn't have this, you're sanctyfying the status quo.
Nothing to do with stubborn my friend. Its stubborn to not see why people get offended by behaviour like this. Its also stubborn to call other people stubborn only because something wrong is repeated every second page
Stuff like this divides people only because there are a few idiots out there who think they can harass others.
How about we make gaming events for people who weight 50 kg or less because these people get harassed by big people and we need a safe space for them :O
AtomskEater
Member
How does it aggravate the problem, aside from shitheels on the internet proving why women want private events like this?
Then please tell me how you are fighting for equality and making spaces more comfortable for minorities before we talk about how they shouldn't have spaces for themselves, period.
Y'all are way too interested in making sure men have access to everything without addressing that things are already unequal.
I'm pretty sure that atleast one of the intentions in that event was to help women to equality in gaming. Since now they are clearly not. They are discriminated group, why not let them have their discussions and event in peace without the harassment, interruptions and derailing by those people who discriminate against them. Again, these things just happened at Vidcon when it wasn't women only event. There is no way to separate all the bad seeds from all the rest of men and only preventing those from coming into the panel. So unfortunately the situation is that to secure entirely friendly and safe enviroment is to exclude men from this event entirely. This women only event would been happening only because women are too often treated as something less than men. And having men excluded from this is not really a big deal in any way, it has no negative consequences and implications. It doesn't imply men being less worthy or subhuman. It's in no way comparable to racial segregation for example.
After we get to the equality, then we hopefully don't need women only events anymore.
It seems a fair guess that they wanted to enjoy games in relative comfort, not war
I think this is everybodys problem, that's the difference between you and me. I acknowledge the problem and want a solution without making it bad for either side, I really believe a solution is reachable by singling out the individuals that do this and pushing for more women-centric content that would help integrating and bringing more women into this events.
Also, for the event of this thread, I would be fully supportive if there wouldn't be any ban in place. I think naturally the men participation would be low to unexistent, the discrimination is the problem, on both sides.
Edit: I'm out of here, had my fill of passive-aggressive kids calling people things when they dont agree with their opinion.
AtomskEater
Member
Nothing to do with stubborn my friend. Its stubborn to not see why people get offended by behaviour like this. Its also stubborn to call other people stubborn only because something wrong is repeated every second page
Stuff like this divides people only because there are a few idiots out there who think they can harass others.
How about we make gaming events for people who weight 50 kg or less because these people get harassed by big people and we need a safe space for them :O
??? What does this even mean? People already know they can get away with harassing others and dividing communities, because people like you will always go to bat by presenting unhelpful platitudes and telling other people how they should and shouldn't try to make events for themselves. And it's more than "a few" who do this.
Neither is it my job to teach others to respect each other nor am I really interested in parenting others. Adding the right security to these locations and throw out people who dont know how to behave works at most events though.
I mean I dont even care for this event but equality is something different
Bobo Dakes
Member
Nothing to do with stubborn my friend. Its stubborn to not see why people get offended by behaviour like this. Its also stubborn to call other people stubborn only because something wrong is repeated every second page
Stuff like this divides people only because there are a few idiots out there who think they can harass others.
How about we make gaming events for people who weight 50 kg or less because these people get harassed by big people and we need a safe space for them :O
An underrepresented group within an industry wants to hold a networking event so people who feel underrepresented can meet and network. It's cool because they can better relate to each other and discuss the issues they face without dealing guys jumping in and going well #notallmen are like that. That's not division. You are kidding yourself if you believe that.
Please tell me why I should kick my boss' door down and explain to her why her "Woman Business Owner of the Year" award nomination divides us.
I think in the context of gaming and the Internet, and indeed nerd culture, it goes into a specific viewpoint that social identity itself is a problem because it is the catalyst for bigotry (not the people that engage in bigotry over something as benign as social identity, of course), which can at times feel similar to a lot of the bullying middle class teens have gone through (not to say teens cannot be victims of bigotry), and thus anonymity is the way to go because then everyone is a blank slate, free of the pre-existing assumptions associated with any identity, who succeeds or fails on their own merits as a contributor to the community. You see it in 4chan's whole worldview and structure, fandoms that pride themselves on "unity" and being a "big happy family" over "drama," and to a lesser extent within the wider Internet community and it's desire to keep as much anonymity as possible.
However, anonymity as an ultimate good is a terrible basis for a social worldview because everyone who uses a computer or engages in some other way with nerd culture is ultimately a human being already built with preconceived notions about others' identities and a general idea of the self and its given identities. So one's Internet history and habits are going to be an approximate reflection of their "real life" self- Google wouldn't be able to advertise to you otherwise- and thus the many parts of the Internet have take on aspects of the current dominant worldview- the one of straight white men's and the associated privilege of being able to actually believe in meritocratic ideals.
So then here comes a person who sees this, or has some interaction with a person where they're assumed to be something they're not, or they meet someone who's like them in some way. This person then declares themselves to be a woman, or a black man, or gay, or some other aberration from the "anonymous," default, colorblind bubble of the Internet. The very declaration of these identities is an inherent attack on Internet culture, because you're now subsequently introducing the societal baggage that has come with the history of these identities back into the "anonymous" bubble, the societal baggage that people who subscribe hard to anonymity tried to solve by just ignoring it and assuming you were a "blank slate" straight white male in the first place.
It's why people get pissed at "putting politics into games" through the use of social identity while not caring about the politics of WWII. It's why people tell minorities to make their own games instead of trying to inject their presence where it doesn't belong. It's why people keep trying to lambast Anita Sarkeesian as a no-good lying outsider while her harassers are minimally targeted with these same kind of offense tactics. Identity is a reminder of the real world, and nerds don't want to deal with the real world because they might be forced to confront some nasty things about their character, even when they're calling you a nigger in Overwatch.
tl:dr-- Listen to Foldy. He's already broken this shit down in an amazing way.
Nothing to do with stubborn my friend. Its stubborn to not see why people get offended by behaviour like this. Its also stubborn to call other people stubborn only because something wrong is repeated every second page
Stuff like this divides people only because there are a few idiots out there who think they can harass others.
How about we make gaming events for people who weight 50 kg or less because these people get harassed by big people and we need a safe space for them :O
But that isn't something that happens en masse. The thing that is real is actually happening. Real life has context
I'm still not over you saying "Afro Americans" shouldn't hold their own events either on the previous page.
Slow down buddy. First we need to get rid of the necessity of unequal events before we can move on and talk about how it makes no sense that the business award for women and men should be the same
Bobo Dakes
Member
The fact that you see women only events as discrimination against men is your problem. Really think about all the things that have happened to women to where these events are necessary. Really try to process that. If you can't then you'll never get it.
I dont mean that they are not allowed to do so, if that sounded like that I excuse myself. I meant that I would never think of excluding someone regardless of what his skin color or gender is and I expect this from others too.
AtomskEater
Member
Okay, so for instance if you're on voice chat or a forum and someone is berating a female user, do you call them out? If you don't, congrats, no progress is made, the woman is made to feel uncomfortable in game-related spaces, the cycle continues. You may feel it's not your job to teach others, but something as simple as telling someone their behavior is not acceptable can help. What ideas do you have to stop harassment? Do only minorities bear the burden of trying to educate bigots? And do they need to educate and debate them 24/7?
The problem is that you shut down the possibility that events like these can help those who are underrepresented feel comfortable or provide them opportunities to getting into the industry. THAT is what we need to make things equal.
Security helps at physical events, but as has been established, a lot of the issue is with people online doxing and harassing minorities when they try to raise their voices about these issues.
Are you kinda admitting that events like these have validity for minorities? Because if you want to focus on dismantling sexism, racism, and other forms of inequality and bigotry so that people will no longer feel like they need their own events to feel safe, I can agree that's the goal.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Also, we need to stop demonizing the term discrimination. Not every single act of discrimination is like being a white supremacist, and not every single such act is even negative. "It's technically discrimination, therefore it's like being a Nazi," he said at the food drive for the poor.
To be honest, I am not really offended by the fact that there are these events. What I dont really like is the fact that people want equality but yet organize these events. Thats not equal and lets assume I would live nearby this event and would like to go there but couldnt.
I agree with this. Oppressors keep co-opting the language of the oppressed in order to equivocate minority solutions and coping mechanism against social ills with their own unchecked bigotry, and we need to stop falling for it. It's already happened with racism.
Yoshimitsu126
Member
Are you trying to equate a real problem in sexism with something you think is trivial?
Why would you want to go to a women's networking event?
Because they want to network?
clearestblue
Neo Member
You're being deliberately obtuse here. Wanting equality and also wanting a space where you can be with likeminded people and discuss issues relating to being a woman in gaming without some idiot being like "well actually" are not mutually exclusive.
AtomskEater
Member
I think there's a misconception that this would have been like PAX for women only, filled with exclusive demos and trailers and gift bags of tshirts.
How do you feel about Black History Month?
Gotdatmoney
Member
Do you think a networking event for women under represented in an industry is better or worse served by having men there?
Or BET
Gotdatmoney
Member
Fellow men in this thread, do you think there are no situations ever where women just want to be among women?
TwilightPrincess
Member
Morgan Freeman has an interesting opinion on it, he might be right.
Of course I would call out people when they are harassing someone. I already did it multiple times. I meant that I am not the right one to find a solution to solve this problem in general.
Lets say it this way. Of course its always "safety first" and for this alone, its okay to say that we need events like this. But we also have to admit that its not bringing us forward in the actual problem. As you can see, there are also people who get seriously offended by this and this leads to anger, maybe also a little hate and we have a situation where the event is canceled and everyone has lost.
So likeminded people can only happen when people share a gender? Learned something new today
EDIT: Sry for double post
was too fastWhy do you think women need to save the world in order to hang out?
clearestblue
Neo Member
So likeminded people can only happen when people share a gender? Learned something new today
EDIT: Sry for double post
Reading is fundamental
Gotdatmoney
Member
I will never understand what the "problem" is. What problem are they suppose to be solving here? When did it become female gamers responsibility to solve the problem of gaming communities treating them like shit. Why can't they just do their own thing for a day? Why does their event need to be co-opted?
Why the fuck are you not pushing Microsoft, Sony or Nintendo to address this at E3? Why does a girl's gaming event in Spain that aint even happen need to be where people draw their imaginary lines in the sand?
Am I missing something. Did girl gamers sign up to be the Jesus of social justice for that day and I just didn't know?
Why the fuck are you not pushing Microsoft, Sony or Nintendo to address this at E3? Why does a girl's gaming event in Spain that aint even happen need to be where people draw their imaginary lines in the sand?
Am I missing something. Did girl gamers sign up to be the Jesus of social justice for that day and I just didn't know?
This shit blows my mind sometimes. I don't get what you think you are "missing out" on? Do people understand there are women only invites all over the world for various organizations and businesses? There are organizations that promote women working in the tech industry and events such as encouraging middle school and high school girls to work in CS fields that are women only. These events allow for exchange of ideas from like-minded individuals and just like this gaming event, encourages more diversity in the field.
But at the end of the day, this is centered around gaming nerd culture. Same shit with the Wonder Woman screenings. Why people feel like this affects them in the least still boggles my mind.
But at the end of the day, this is centered around gaming nerd culture. Same shit with the Wonder Woman screenings. Why people feel like this affects them in the least still boggles my mind.
AtomskEater
Member
Then let me say good, and thank you for calling it out. Seriously, not enough people do it.
The thing being that while you do know that you don't know the actual solution to any of the problems minorities face, you feel that you are qualified to tell them what they can't do to feel safe or have places to speak freely.
You see these events as inciting hatred when the kind of people to use this as an excuse to hate and harass women made up their minds long ago. More people should be made to understand why women or black people or whomever might want to have their own slice of cake at the birthday party rather than dealing with crumbs (which people are already trying to explain ITT).
So likeminded people can only happen when people share a gender? Learned something new today
EDIT: Sry for double post
You keep being obtuse just for the sake of it. Why is it that is so imperative that you are there? "Because I have the right" is not an answer. "Because otherwise it's sexist" isn't an answer.
No, you clearly don't understand the problem.
Never said this. Its something both men and women need to do.
Common sense is too. Your comment says that women can only talk about that on events where only women are welcome. Ignoring the fact that women also appear at mixed events
Gotdatmoney
Member
Can you explain it to me?
You and other's keep saying that women's only events aren't solving the problem of misogyny.
So excuse me for thinking you believe we need to solve the problem of misogyny before we hang out with each other.
Bobo Dakes
Member
Events like these are thrown BECAUSE they don't feel like they're treated equal.
Never said this. Its something both men and women need to do.
Common sense is too. Your comment says that women can only talk about that on events where only women are welcome. Ignoring the fact that women also appear at mixed events
Maybe the fact that even having a women only event got it harassed out of existence is also related to why it was women only in the first place.
If you don't even want to see the problem with a group of mysoginist men rallying to boycott an event organized by women for women, which didn't concern them in the slightest, by harassing them and threatening to go to the place where it was taking place dressed as women... well, no, I won't explain the fucking to you.
Read the first post if you're so inclined to learn. But I honestly doubt it.