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72 years ago today, the US dropped an atomic bomb on Nagasaki, Japan

StayDead

Member
Well we know the atomic bombings ended the war. The Emperor himself said so in his surrender speech.

They were one in a long list of problems that ended the war.

The Japanese Navy which until the Battle of Midway were their strongest asset were mostly destroyed. The Yamato which was meant to be the crowning glory of the Japanese Navy and was so valuable the Japanese Navy were almost scared to use her was sunk and so was her sister ship Musashi. They had no power in the pacific. Their carriers were gone, even their destroyers and submarines were left in small numbers and many of the battleships left were captured or unable to really do anything about the air superiority over the Pacific the Americans had gained through their newer more advanced Essex class ships. They didn't have a chance in a naval war setting anymore.

They also stood no chance defending their northern islands from the incoming russian invasion forces and they were losing their foothold over China. They had no reason to continue the war. The bombs were just added on top of their reasons to surrender.
 

Johnny M

Member
Always asked myself why USA didn't launch the nuke just a few kilometers off the coast of Tokyo and then give a ultimatum to surrender.
 
Always asked myself why USA didn't launch the nuke just a few kilometers off the coast of Tokyo and then give a ultimatum to surrender.

As others pointed out, it's because nukes were super expensive and limited at the time and the Japanese probably would've taken it as a bluff that the US didn't have the guts to follow through on regardless
 

Sephzilla

Member
RIP to all of the people who lost their lives that day.

On the topic of lives being saved. I think dropping the bombs ultimately saved lives in the long run. But that doesn't mean that dropping the bomb wasn't a terrible thing that cost a lot of lives. Dropping the bombs versus an actual invasion were both evils that would have cost countless innocent lives.
 

StayDead

Member
Because it wouldn't have worked.

you have no evidence to support that though. Nobody knew what would've happened. They didn't even try though which is the issue people take. What happened happened, there's no way of changing that, but there's also no way of tellling what would've happened if was done differently.
 
And a reminder to all our international friends! Nuclear weapons are the horrors of the modern era. Except when they are on the side of the US! Then they should be accepted as a necessary evil and that you should've been born on their side instead!


Fuck nuclear weapons and the constant looming fear they pose to everyone to this day.

Nuclear deterrence is only reason why we haven't had WW3 yet because no one wins nuclear war. They are necessary evil to keep peace between great powers.
 
RIP to all of the people who lost their lives that day.

On the topic of lives being saved. I think dropping the bombs ultimately saved lives in the long run. But that doesn't mean that dropping the bomb wasn't a terrible thing that cost a lot of lives. Dropping the bombs versus an actual invasion were both evils that would have cost countless innocent lives.
yep. I don't think anyone here is arguing that the dropping of the atomic bomb wasn't an absolute tragedy. Just that the alternative would have led to an even greater tragedy
 

JettDash

Junior Member
Now the bombings were racially motivated or something? Even though the bombs were developed because Einstein signed a letter to the president expressing concern about Germany getting the bomb? Even though the bombs were not finished until after they surrendered?
 

adj_noun

Member
Always asked myself why USA didn't launch the nuke just a few kilometers off the coast of Tokyo and then give a ultimatum to surrender.

There's a decent wiki entry on that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki#Choice_of_targets

In early May 1945, the Interim Committee was created by Stimson at the urging of leaders of the Manhattan Project and with the approval of Truman to advise on matters pertaining to nuclear energy.

During the meetings on May 31 and June 1, scientist Ernest Lawrence had suggested giving the Japanese a non-combat demonstration. Arthur Compton later recalled that:

It was evident that everyone would suspect trickery. If a bomb were exploded in Japan with previous notice, the Japanese air power was still adequate to give serious interference.

An atomic bomb was an intricate device, still in the developmental stage. Its operation would be far from routine. If during the final adjustments of the bomb the Japanese defenders should attack, a faulty move might easily result in some kind of failure.

Such an end to an advertised demonstration of power would be much worse than if the attempt had not been made. It was now evident that when the time came for the bombs to be used we should have only one of them available, followed afterwards by others at all-too-long intervals.

We could not afford the chance that one of them might be a dud. If the test were made on some neutral territory, it was hard to believe that Japan's determined and fanatical military men would be impressed. If such an open test were made first and failed to bring surrender, the chance would be gone to give the shock of surprise that proved so effective.

On the contrary, it would make the Japanese ready to interfere with an atomic attack if they could. Though the possibility of a demonstration that would not destroy human lives was attractive, no one could suggest a way in which it could be made so convincing that it would be likely to stop the war.


The possibility of a demonstration was raised again in the Franck Report issued by physicist James Franck on June 11 and the Scientific Advisory Panel rejected his report on June 16, saying that "we can propose no technical demonstration likely to bring an end to the war; we see no acceptable alternative to direct military use."

Franck then took the report to Washington, D.C., where the Interim Committee met on June 21 to re-examine its earlier conclusions; but it reaffirmed that there was no alternative to the use of the bomb on a military target.

Like Compton, many U.S. officials and scientists argued that a demonstration would sacrifice the shock value of the atomic attack, and the Japanese could deny the atomic bomb was lethal, making the mission less likely to produce surrender. Allied prisoners of war might be moved to the demonstration site and be killed by the bomb.

They also worried that the bomb might be a dud since the Trinity test was of a stationary device, not an air-dropped bomb. In addition, only two bombs would be available at the start of August, although more were in production, and they cost billions of dollars, so using one for a demonstration would be expensive
 

13ruce

Banned
Damn people defending a nuclear strike....
Something wich should never ever happen.

It's still silly we have wars in our modern age shows us we humans are pathetic shits.
 
Nuclear deterrence is only reason why we haven't had WW3 yet because no one wins nuclear war. They are necessary evil to keep peace between great powers.

I mean, this isn't completely true. Deterrence is one major factor, but we can't overlook things like globalization and the strengthening of economic ties between nations which makes war far less profitable
 

reckless

Member
you have no evidence to support that though. Nobody knew what would've happened. They didn't even try though which is the issue people take. What happened happened, there's no way of changing that, but there's also no way of tellling what would've happened if was done differently.

You can make an educated guess, considering the Emperor had to intervene to force a surrender even after everything that occurred there is a pretty high possibility that they wouldn't have and the extension of the war means tens of thousands,hundreds of thousands even millions of deaths depending on just how long.
 

Machina

Banned
Nuclear deterrence is only reason why we haven't had WW3 yet because no one wins nuclear war. They are necessary evil to keep peace between great powers.

You'll forgive me if I expect these great powers to respect the fact they're great powers and not create world ending weapons for their own benefit in the first place.
 

Veitsev

Member
you have no evidence to support that though. Nobody knew what would've happened. They didn't even try though which is the issue people take. What happened happened, there's no way of changing that, but there's also no way of tellling what would've happened if was done differently.

The evidence is that they didn't surrender after using the first bomb.

As far as trying it. Again people like you are just completely ignoring the extent of firebombing in Japan. Why in the world would a big explosion off the coast of Tokyo (which by the way was in ruins) change shit? We firebombed 67 cities. Didn't convince them to surrender.
 

Kenstar

Member
I hate to tell you this but when a gov't teaches civilians to commit suicide in order to go out with honor that takes it to a new level. Military discipline is one thing but convincing women and children to do it is something else. No amount of "But America..." changes that.

Contingency
This video is creepy because of the implications of this happening to americans, but it ACTUALLY HAPPENED in Okinawa

can't imagine that shit
 

Cocaloch

Member
I mean, this isn't completely true. Deterrence is one major factor, but we can't overlook things like globalization and the strengthening of economic ties between nations which makes war far less profitable

I'm not defending nuclear deterrence, but guess what most Europeans though between 1860 and 1914.
 
You'll forgive me if I expect these great powers to respect the fact they're great powers and not create world ending weapons for their own benefit in the first place.

I too would like to live in a fantasy land where people in power didn't scramble to get more of it and where everyone could get along and make nice without ever hurting each other. Unfortunately, we live in reality instead
 
I mean, this isn't completely true. Deterrence is one major factor, but we can't overlook things like globalization and the strengthening of economic ties between nations which makes war far less profitable

I mean yes I can't absolutely say that there wouldn't been WW3 without nuclear deterrence but chance for that would had been way way higher.
 

Sephzilla

Member
I'm no historian so feel free to correct me but don't most historians of WW2 agree that a land invasion of Japan would have resulted in one of the bloodiest battles in the recorded history of the world? Japan wasn't giving up the homeland without a fight. I mean shit, it took a second atomic bomb for them to finally surrender.
 

Cocaloch

Member
I'm no historian so feel free to correct me but don't most historians of WW2 agree that a land invasion of Japan would have resulted in one of the bloodiest battles in the recorded history of the world? Japan wasn't giving up the homeland without a fight. I mean shit, it took a second atomic bomb for them to finally surrender.

No.

It's almost like I'm suggesting there are multiple factors that have prevented another world war so far and that it's not any single thing that we can prop up

What I'm saying is that clearly isn't actually doing much at all. It didn't just not prevent war, it was a facade under which the largest war that had ever happened gestated. This entire line of thought comes from problematic Tory and Patriot Whig ideas in the 18th century. We don't need to parrot it in the 21st century.
 

Machina

Banned
I too would like to live in a fantasy land where people in power didn't scramble to get more of it and where everyone could get along and make nice without ever hurting each other. Unfortunately, we live in reality instead

Funny that, because one day you and everyone you love may not be living anymore, period.
 
I'm no historian so feel free to correct me but don't most historians of WW2 agree that a land invasion of Japan would have resulted in one of the bloodiest battles in the recorded history of the world? Japan wasn't giving up the homeland without a fight. I mean shit, it took a second atomic bomb for them to finally surrender.
Yes. Japan was arming its citizens to attack invaders
 
You'll forgive me if I expect these great powers to respect the fact they're great powers and not create world ending weapons for their own benefit in the first place.

You can expect what you want but that doesn't change the real world situation. WWII was just 21 years after WWI and WWI was supposed to be war to end wars.
 

jmdajr

Member
Damn people defending a nuclear strike....
Something wich should never ever happen.

It's still silly we have wars in our modern age shows us we humans are pathetic shits.

Why did Cain murder Abel though? Shit has been horrible since then!
 

Redd

Member
I'm sorry I have a fear of nuclear weapons and am critical of the ONLY nation in the history of man to use them in war.

This is crazy stupid. Eventually someone else would have made nuclear weapons even if we never dropped the atom bomb. You would still be in fear of a nuclear holocaust. You're just building up the US as the boogeyman.
 

KHarvey16

Member
You're just declaring it. I see why you do, it comes from a specific Enlightenment view of rationality that's quite appealing. But it clearly doesn't hold up in all situations. At the bare minimum it doesn't hold up in the expert community of historians who we should trust as the epistemological authorities on the subject.

The reason is fairly complicated, but the simplest way to put it is getting back to what I've brought up time and time again. We aren't making claims about certainty, because we can never go back to the past and find out for certain what happened, and even if we did we'd still be using a lot of interpretation to understand it.

History is about making arguments that are more or less likely, more or less convincing. It's a different but, contra positivists, not lesser understanding of validity. The sort of validity you're suggesting simply doesn't make philosophical sense in history, which is why the positivist program in history fell apart, and, to a lesser extent, why my field has rapidly decline in popularity since the 80s.



Well that's not sufficient. If they posited a meaningful counter argument, the expert community at least thinks the issue is contentious, and they are ignored, which is exactly what happens in these thread, then that bit of information is certainly relevant, though quite not particularly nuanced in this instance, to the argument at hand. Regardless of who is right and wrong here, the popular narrative in the US is wrong. As I'm sure you know, experts that agree with the sentiment make rather different arguments. The core issue here is that most arguments, admittedly on both sides, are essentially substanceless. They are nebulous claims that no one is really backing up in a meaningful way.

He can't really address the argument head on, because both sides are simply presenting contradictory narratives without much in the way of justification. The only thing there is to address is why you picked the unjustified argument you picked.

Regardless, if you want a strong epistemological, but that's going to be different that you're expecting I think, argument on the topic you have to go to experts. No one in this thread is an expert, and people in this thread don't seem particularly interested in actually looking at what experts have to say.



I'd argue if someone is making the argument that their arguments exist totally outside of their nationality, education, sexuality, or spiritual beliefs is also incredibly dumb.

The statement in your post isn't nuanced, but it's closer to the truth. Most people do not believe the things they believe for particularly philosophically sound reasons. It's probably kind of rude to dismiss large swaths of people based on their nationality, but it's definitely really stupid, and blatantly ahistorical, to ignore the impact our historical situation has on our thoughts. Even at the most obvious level you have issues like language that are undeniably in play.



Okay so this is fair enough, but then we're right back to the fact that most of the positions people are taking are pretty substanceless.



We can discuss those things, but we should never delude ourselves into thinking we're talking about them as dinge an sich. That's a lesson the discipline has really taken to heart in the last 30 years.

Here's a genuine question for you. Why do so many Americans believe the popular narrative?

Obviously that wasn't the best way to go about doing what he was doing, but I honestly don't see how you dismissing his argument, especially when he went back and explained it in greater detail, is that different.

When intellectual historians of the future look at how we were talking about this issue what sorts of things do you think they will be saying?

You keep wanting to talk about how we're talking about this. That's not what I'm discussing. How future historians discuss how we discussed this will for sure involve things like propaganda and nationality and all those kinds of things. That's fine, because that's an entirely different conversation.

I'm saying the car is blue. Someone else said it's not because it has two doors. I respond saying the number of doors is irrelevant to the color and you've done nothing to address my position that the color is blue. Now you're here arguing that the number of doors is a good discussion to have because no one can ever know for certain what color the car is. Well, great. The number of doors still doesn't tell me what color it was. If you want to have a discussion about doors, have at it. But I'm not talking about doors.

We can have a great conversation using primary sources and expert opinions to support our positions. This idea that we have to rely on fallacies because it's easier is pretty bizarre.
 

Josh5890

Member
Always asked myself why USA didn't launch the nuke just a few kilometers off the coast of Tokyo and then give a ultimatum to surrender.

Truman wanted to hit a city that was largely untouched during the war and Hiroshima had not been firebombed up until that point. Plus it was mostly a military city with factories and there were fewer women and children compared to other cities.
 

13ruce

Banned
So please tell me with all your genius and wisdom how you would have stopped the fighting in such a way that no innocent people would've been killed?

That we humans and especially people with "power" finally get it in through their skulls that war should never be a means to an end but sadly with people like Trump, erdogan, Kim jong un getting places of power easily that might not happen for a long while still.

Sure those atomic bombs stopped the war but hopefully that was a lesson that they should never be used again.

But still how can anyone defend a atomic bomb drop? That's just crazy. Even if t ended a war it's still a very bad way to end one.
 

Alej

Banned
The evidence is that they didn't surrender after using the first bomb.

As far as trying it. Again people like you are just completely ignoring the extent of firebombing in Japan. Why in the world would a big explosion off the coast of Tokyo (which by the way was in ruins) change shit? We firebombed 67 cities. Didn't convince them to surrender.

USSR's entry in the conflict made them surrender.

And a mere blockade would have made them surrender.

Now, why USA did it? That's open to speculation. But they obviously didn't do it to save lives.
 

jmdajr

Member
So please tell me with all your genius and wisdom how you would have stopped the fighting in such a way that no innocent people would've been killed?

Nuclear weapons were one day or another gonna happen with our evolution. And things played out the way they did and all we can do is learn from it.

Outside of an asteroid coming and wiping us extinct I think there was no way around it.
 
That we humans and especially people with "power" finally get it in through their skulls that war should never be a means to an end but sadly with people like Trump, erdogan, Kim jong un getting places of power easily that might not happen for a long while still.

Sure those atomic bombs stopped the war but hopefully that was a lesson that they should never be used again.

But still how can anyone defend a atomic bomb drop? That's just crazy. Even if t ended a war it's still a very bad way to end one.

I mean I agree, but the war had already been going on a long time when the atomic bomb was launched. Stop framing this in terms of modern politics, because that's effectively pointless because the context is so different. And there is no "good" way to end a war. No matter what, at that point all of the ways of ending the war would've resulted in a lot of civilian death
 

Veitsev

Member
USSR's entry in the conflict made them surrender.

And a mere blockade would have made them surrender.

Now, why USA did it? That's open to speculation. But they obviously didn't do it to save lives.

The emperor of Japan specifically named the bombings as a reason for surrender.

The idea that a mere blockade would have solved things is utter nonsense.

Yes they did it to save lives. American lives. They didn't want to invade and they wanted the war to be over.
 

Machina

Banned
Nuclear weapons were one day or another gonna happen with our evolution. And things played out the way they did and all we can do is learn from it.

Outside of an asteroid coming and wiping us extinct I think there was no way around it.

We never learn anything, that's the problem.

Centuries of human bloodshed and indiscriminate conventional warfare and our next great idea is to invent a convenient way to end it for everyone even quicker.
 
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