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[Physiognomonics]

Price has nothing to do with Sony's success here. It will be all about the games. Besides in a year or so there could be 60 millions PS5s in the hands of customers. His whole analysis (based on price and 30 millions PS5s) is deeply flawed.

 

[poppabk]

He has to be more patient and Sony and everyone else is well aware of how many PS5's are out there and the possible take up of extra VR hardware from their install base. The man says he's not impressed with 30 million consoles but he's barking up the wrong tree here.

It's an impressive and well implemented VR solution in this early time of VR for their own users, in a space that's suffered from in my view low to middling products and implementations. I shouldn't have to even say how expensive tech usually is early on and these new innovations and ideas will keeping getting made by various companies in VR and eventually merge into a cheaper more compelling product that's less trouble and effortless to use and Sony might never be the one to make that in 10-20 years time. Coming out right now with a low quality VR experience isn't going to fly, might do in 5 years for some company out there, I mean if so then get to it, John.

For me, right now I'm glad Sony has stepped up the quality instead of producing something average for $2-300. They can do more in later iterations. It's about having a nice experience to come back to and play for hours.

Honestly, in a world with $200 controllers that at least from the threads here are more than a crazy niche, the price seems reasonable.

 

[ABnormal]

Nice sarc. But I'll bite. VR is still a fairly niche thing and is still at a price point that's not attractive to most consumers. While I agree VR is very immersive, its not for everyone.

Take 3DTV, games and cinema for example. And how intrusive people found it wearing polarized glasses to watch 3D content. Yeah watching films in 3D can be more immersive, it also it a pain to set up for everyone to watch. And you had to pay more for the luxury for that. Now ask people to spend a grand to experience VR or an extra $500 (or another console's worth).

That's what I mean when I speak of commonplaces. So many times in the past I have seen people making examples about VR using 3D cinema or "Virtual" Boy.

Yes, the price point is still not attractive for many. Then what? That's reality, and it has been taken in account when producing it. It could have been a cheap and low end VR unit, but they decided differently. Thanks God. If someone is attracted by low end VR, the are standalone sets which cost significantly less.

And 3D cinema is another of those examples that have not really something to do with VR. 3D cinema is just a passive perception of depht of images that you not even control. VR is total immersion in a realtime virtual world, interacting with the visual and with the environment itself. 3D perception in VR is just one of the benefits, but that's not VR in itself. As it's not Virtual Boy, that despite the name has nothing to do with virtual relaity, and that it's simple a 3D TV close to face: just a depth perception. If you you move around with Virtual Boy on your face, you do not see the world around you, you have simply a 3D TV on your face.
Nobody has to ask people to spend on anything. There is the chance to have high end VR on PS5. It has certain costs. You decide iy you want it and if you can buy it. That's it. You can't sell high end VR at a loss, especially for a niche market that doesn't allow great gains to cover the losses. So either you do it at the possible price, or you do not do it altogether, as the other producers do.

 

[gothmog]

“Addressable market size matters much more to developers than global coverage. A 5M market size distributed across every country is much less attractive than a 10M market in a smaller set of countries. In fact, equal sized markets would favor fewer countries — less work.”

Less work in what meaningful way to Sony? These large electronics companies are set up to handle distributed markets.

 

[Imtjnotu]

the $2000 gpu crowd worried about a $500 dollar vr device.....

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

I don't understand why a smaller geographic distribution would be better. Why does it matter how spread out the sold units are? It's not like Sony doesn't already have a big presence with marketing, PS Store, distribution, etc, in all markets they're gonna sell the PSVR2.

Hypothetical

Imagine if 30 million PS5's sold in India and 9 million in the US, which of those two would result in more optional PSVR2 headsets being sold?

That is close to the point Carmack is trying to make.

I simply DO NOT understand how a guy like Carmack does get this simple point. It's insane how people don't get this.

Does he not realize that these exist?

Alyx and Astrobot existed too and didn't do much for headset higher adoption rates.

 

[Crayon]

The best thing is for no one to not buy it and see how well it sells.

Oh hell no. I actually like VR and I'm not going to sit around and watch other people grab a top of the line headset with actual new big VR games for half as much as the other ones.

 

[RoadHazard]

Hypothetical

Imagine if 30 million PS5's sold in India and 9 million in the US, which of those two would result in more optional PSVR2 headsets being sold?

That is close to the point Carmack is trying to make.

Probably the 30 million in India? That is, in a hypothetical scenario where 30 million people in India could/would buy a PS5. I still don't get it, lol.

 

[midnightAI]

Hypothetical

Imagine if 30 million PS5's sold in India and 9 million in the US, which of those two would result in more optional PSVR2 headsets being sold?

I don't think that is what Carmack is talking about?

I think he is talking more from a game developers perspective, it's less work in regards to regionalisation so they are more likely to support one with high sales in less regions

 

[scydrex]

Could i get a quest 2 and a build a $500 pc to enjoy it?

 

[poppabk]

Could i get a quest 2 and a build a $500 pc to enjoy it?

I mean yes you could, but something in the $800-$1000 range would be more likely to give you a decent experience.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

I think this whole VR thing is an exercise in delusion and contradiction.

VR gaming needs games. Standalone VR headsets are shit for games, and if you want a proper AAA game experience with them, you have to hook them up to a PC anyways. And guess what, said PC is gonna cost you over $500.

No matter how anyone spins it, VR gaming is always going to be expensive. Just no way around it.

What sony needs to do, is make the PSVR2 headset compatible with PC/Mac and Linux. The VR market is just too niche for anyone to be building walled gardens.

 

[Crayon]

What sony needs to do, is make the PSVR2 headset compatible with PC/Mac and Linux. The VR market is just too niche for anyone to be building walled gardens.

Only valve is going to make long plays like that to rise the tide. Nobody else does that. There is nothing in it for sony to do official pc support. Most the posts about how it would be good for sony are actually repressed port begging.

 

[scydrex]

I mean yes you could, but something in the $800-$1000 range would be more likely to give you a decent experience.

So at the end it's more expensive than the ps5 and psvr2 setup. Building a pc in my country is very expensive. For example a 4090 here goes for around US$2,500.

 

[poppabk]

So at the end it's more expensive than the ps5 and psvr2 setup. Building a pc in my country is very expensive. For example a 4090 here goes for around US$2,500.

My PC 5800x and 6900xt cost a little over $1000, my Quest 2 was a $250 official refurb plus $20 for a decent strap and $10 for virtual desktop. So slightly more expensive up front, but will quickly even out due to much cheaper software (thank you humble bundle) and gamepass games.
PSVR2 is obviously better for visual quality but you do lose the wireless experience.

 

[Beechos]

As much as i love vr and hope psvr 2 succeeds i would have to agree with carmack. There is a reason why the quest and quest 2 has blown away every other vr headset in units sold. Mainly for the price and pick up and play.

 

[DryvBy]

Why on the Earth should I worry about it selling 5 or 15 millions units? I'm a gamer, not a Sony investor, and since even at launch there will be games that will amaze me, and obviously more planned for years, I already know that I will have what I want for it.
What's the sense of basing the decision of buying or not on how mant units it will sell in the coming years? It's not that that's will change the games that are being developed. And surely I'm not thinking that PSVR 2 will have to last two generations. As the console, all I need for it is to last for the entire gen and some, with some meaningful games. Since the architecture, it will probably even back compatible with PS6, but as for PS6, at that time I will buy PSVR 3, if it will exist, to enjoy another next gen step of it.
PSVR 2 selling good or bad can only influence a potential PSVR3, but at least for this generation, we are pretty much covered. There's always a years long schedule, internally.

I thought it was clear I was joking because it was a stupid comment I wrote lol

 

[Alexios]

Obviously not any one product is going to make or break VR, but all of them together are making it. A % of PS fans from PSVR#, casual players from top toy to buy lists a la Wii for Quest, hardcore simmers on PC (that may also opt for a Quest or other x in 1 VR kits to have all at once), etc., no one thing needs to do better and eclipse others to matter, all together are making VR mainstream, just like vidya games in general weren't a thing just because of a Nintendo or whatever company's console and despite massive for their time success on occasion, all consoles put together now are much more mainstream and sold to many more users than any one before. Fanboys trashing one or the other are just being fanboys for VR as they are for gaming in general (VR like 3D graphics or whatever iinterests us for gaming purposes here, also has uses in various industries but it's ot for PSVR). And people trashing them all together have no imagination and are old men yelling at clouds, sure they have the sales of any one thing to point to as ammo for their non arguments but they're probably also being just as angry at successful stuff, consoles, PC, Switch, mobile, etc., which all co exist. If people think PSVR2 is only going to be a success when a sequel to Horizon CotM sells as much as the flat series, well, they're being silly, especially when so many games are considered successful with far lower sales without caring that they only got a tiny % of a massive flat gaming userbase. VR just doesn't have to even be considered as a separate thing to flat gaming. It's all just part of gaming for their users. I don't have to only ever game in VR to make the investment worth it, a few big games, a few smaller ones, mixed in with flat gaming and non gaming entertainment works just fine.

 

[Hero of Spielberg]

Only valve is going to make long plays like that to rise the tide. Nobody else does that. There is nothing in it for sony to do official pc support. Most the posts about how it would be good for sony are actually repressed port begging.

Well, it could make it a better value proposition for customers. Also if they continue with their strategy of porting games over to PC then if they did the same with their VR games it would increase their audience there again.

 

[Baki]

Samsung VR, Quest 1, Quest 2, so 3.



Taxes? they explain it right in the article.

Granted, they don't add taxes for the Quest 2 for some reason.

Common thread here. But will also highlight that Quest also has a SW store that does $1.5B in revenue. A good sign of a healthy platform that can support devs.

 

[ReBurn]

I think PSVR2 is going to do well enough. It's not going to move the needle on video game focused VR any more than the first PSVR did but people who enjoy Sony's experiences will see this as a great option, especially if this is their first dip into VR.

 

[Lethal01]

This is cheaper and better spec'ed than the Index.

Does it work with pc?

 

[El Pistolero]

We have to define success. I truly doubt that Sony expects a device priced at $550, which requires a PS5 to boot, to sell in the tens of millions. That would be absurd. But if they can grow the market of the first PS VR by, let's say, a factor of 2 (10 million helmets this time around), I bet they will be satisfied.

 

[Corndog]

Perhaps, but then people should do something else with their money or play other stuff.

It's like with these expensive GPUs. They're priced the way they are. Doesn't mean any of us have to get it lol.

Maybe People need to wait to see it's true performance/potential. Nothing wrong with waiting either.

They will.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

As much as i love vr and hope psvr 2 succeeds i would have to agree with carmack. There is a reason why the quest and quest 2 has blown away every other vr headset in units sold. Mainly for the price and pick up and play.

And blowing everyone else away in terms of losses. Not the best comparison

 

[ABnormal]

I thought it was clear I was joking because it was a stupid comment I wrote lol

Ah, my bad. Being accostumed to read any kind of nonsense, I now take for granted the possiblity of that

 

[Filldo]

No shit, and Sony should have learned with their first experiment. VR has its applications its useful for, but “mainstream gaming” will never be one of them. its niche at best.

I think it comes down to comfort and price. The headsets are fairly comfortable but still heavy and bulky right now. Personally after trying the PSVR at my friends house on a bunch of games I'm totally sold on VR and was ready to preorder day one until the price was announced. Thats just a little out of my comfort range, $400 and I would have been there. Now I gotta save up cause I am still buying one eventually.

I think Sony is slowly reaching people the way they reached me and once you play you just understand that it has to be the future. Regular gaming is so lame in comparison. And thats on games that aren't super amazing graphically... With shit like Horizon about to come out, I think once people actually get to experience it you'll see more adoption. But who knows. I don't usually make any predictions about much of anything, I just know that I thought VR was a gimmick and shit like Beat Saber was stupid.

And then I played and I just can never think about gaming the same again. I'm 44 and it made me feel like a little kid when I got my NES. Just pure magic.

 

[Crayon]

Well, it could make it a better value proposition for customers. Also if they continue with their strategy of porting games over to PC then if they did the same with their VR games it would increase their audience there again.

I should clarify. It would definitely be if better value for customers, I would be doing backflips, and it would no doubt sell some more headsets. The issue is I think there'd be no way those extra headsets playing games that people didn't buy from Sony would offset the nightmare of selling a high ticket item promising full support. It would make their job real hard. Or at least, I think they would think that it would make it really hard.

Valve seems to be able to do stuff like that over and over and benefit themselves and everybody. They are a Stark exception, though.

 

[ABnormal]

As much as i love vr and hope psvr 2 succeeds i would have to agree with carmack. There is a reason why the quest and quest 2 has blown away every other vr headset in units sold. Mainly for the price and pick up and play.

Yes, and that's the reason I was happy whan it launched, because I thought that it would help to spread VR faster. It did, but then I realized that it brought developers to develop games around standalone hardware, and mainly on simple games. So it helped to wide VR market by several millions units, but switched game development towards Wii, instead of towards next gen games. That's a shame and it reached the point where gamers actually think that VR is that, motion gaming on small games. Almost nobody develops big VR games anymore, because standalone Quest 2 is the first platform to sell to.
So for the evolution of VR GAMING, it was actually a damage.
Since nobody else wants to take the risk, I hope PSVR 2 will be succesful enough to sustain again the development of some big games for many years to come.

 

[lmimmfn]

It's far too expensive, while I have CV1 for PC and I love VR if I was to buy a new headset it would be a PC one. 500 quid for a console headset where games even if excellent become defunct in a few years when the PS6 arrives is a bit much.

 

[SlimeGooGoo]

PSVR1 sold around 5 million+ units.
Playstation 4 sold more than 117 million units.
That's around 4% conversion.

So if the PS5 currently sold around 32 million copies, then we might optimistically predict that the PSVR2 might sell around 1.5 million units (as of this year)

It's still a niche product.
Most companies won't invest too much money in it because the userbase is not as big compared to the amount of people that own a PS5.
It makes more business sense to just develop non-VR games for PS5 and call it a day.

So Carmack has a good point.

 

[Crayon]

It's far too expensive, while I have CV1 for PC and I love VR if I was to buy a new headset it would be a PC one. 500 quid for a console headset where games even if excellent become defunct in a few years when the PS6 arrives is a bit much.

Nah, I've been playing my psvr1 games on ps5 for two years now.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

It makes more business sense to just develop non-VR games for PS5 and call it a day.

Or they can make non-VR games and have them in VR like GT7 or RE8

Which is exactly what they are doing

 

[Boss Mog]

I think in 2023 paying for a PS5 and a PSVR2 isn't that bad because if you look at the price of PC GPUs and a VR headset for PC you're probably looking at something that's a lot more expensive. Plus a lot of people already have a PS5 so it's not like they need to shell out for both at once. Quest 2 is nice and all but the graphics are weak compared to what PS5+PSVR2 can churn out.

For me what will hurt Sony more is the fact that an Astro Bot sequel hasn't been even announced yet. Astro Bot was the killer app on the PSVR1, that game alone made my PSVR purchase worth it to me, the rest was just a bonus. Here I have no reason to really go buy one yet. Half-Life Alyx is another big game that I thought would be coming at launch and it's absence only adds to my nonchalance.

Team Asobi is absolutely brilliant. The Astro Bot games are the only platformers on par with Nintendo EAD's stuff in terms of feel and polish. I can only hope they're busy working Astro Bot games both for PSVR2 and standard PS5.

 

[DavidGzz]

Yeah, take for example Sony's flagship game, Ragnarok. There are 132 million or more PS4+5 out there and it sold 11mil at $60-70. Now take a user base of 32 mil and think about how many $600 peripherals will sell. Not many, especially with a leash.

 

[Beechos]

Yes, and that's the reason I was happy whan it launched, because I thought that it would help to spread VR faster. It did, but then I realized that it brought developers to develop games around standalone hardware, and mainly on simple games. So it helped to wide VR market by several millions units, but switched game development towards Wii, instead of towards next gen games. That's a shame and it reached the point where gamers actually think that VR is that, motion gaming on small games. Almost nobody develops big VR games anymore, because standalone Quest 2 is the first platform to sell to.
So for the evolution of VR GAMING, it was actually a damage.
Since nobody else wants to take the risk, I hope PSVR 2 will be succesful enough to sustain again the development of some big games for many years to come.

Thats true its one of those chicken or the egg things. It can be debated either way. I personally feel companies just dont want to spend the resources it takes to make a "real" vr game. Despite the low spec of the quest 2 it can run games way better than the shoveware junk that makes up most of vr.

Vr also needs to develop tech that can make it usable outdoors during the day. Alot of homes have limited play area space. If someome can use it in their backyard or the park it can make for some interesting vr fps battles with a big open space.

 

[Tams]

As genius as Carmack is, this just comes across as sniping from the sides.

He spent getting on for a decade working on VR and it's... not really taken off at all. I think he's a bit bitter about that, whether he admits it or not.

Complaining about the price, while valid, is a poor argument. It's on the cheaper side for the specs you get, both for PSVR2 and the PS5. An equivalent PC setup would cost more.

 

[consoul]

So basically, Carmack is arguing that the PSVR2's price will kill it

No.
Saying you don't think a product will be 'very successful' at a particular price point is not the same as saying you think that price will kill it.

 

[Tams]

Or it just requires the headset, for millions of people whom already own a ps5.

Kind of like saying "5000€ Ferrari wheels require 500 000€ car".

I have never heard anyone buying ps4 and psvr1 in the same time, just to play vr. So why people assume it is now The case?

If it would be cheap and shitty, it could do more harm than good for the vr world.

And people whom cant afford 500€/$ a year even with saving, should not waste their money to these things anyway

I think part if it is the immense levels of entitlement in the gaming community.

Sony: Here's a cool VR headset. It's a bit pricey, but it's really good!
Entitled one: At that price?! Fuck off.
Sony: Well, if it were cheaper, would you buy one.
Entitled one: Maybe.
Sony: Just 'maybe'? Are you even interested in VR?
Entitled one: I have strong opinions and people should listen to me. *Goes play Warzone*

I have no interest in golf. I don't go around complaining about the cost of many golf clubs and wouldn't shit on some new driver a company produces just because it'd be expensive.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

Whats stopping Sony from making Half Life Alyx level of games on it?

So far it seems more like a Vita level support to me. Half hearted and barely there.

Once they go all out on it, I will pick it up.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

We've yet to see the PSVR2 roadmap

I think there are more than a handful of initiatives that would really propel PSVR2 that may or may not be in the works.

We've yet to see the AAA roadmap of PSVR support. Next in the pipeline could be Resident Evil 2-4.

If Sony comes out with a PC Launcher/Storefront, I'm pretty sure we'll see an extension of official PC Support for PSVR2. Maybe even without it.

I think a return of PS Home is kind of an obvious next step and a VR mode obviously makes sense there. I could imagine PC support rolling out with PS Home.

But it's interesting to think that people think this is it for PSVR2. It's only the beginning. Once Sony's PC strategy evolves and becomes more clear we're going to really start to see the puzzle pieces line up.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

We've yet to see the PSVR2 roadmap

I think there are more than a handful of initiatives that would really propel PSVR2 that may or may not be in the works.

We've yet to see the AAA roadmap of PSVR support. Next in the pipeline could be Resident Evil 2-4.

If Sony comes out with a PC Launcher/Storefront, I'm pretty sure we'll see an extension of official PC Support for PSVR2. Maybe even without it.

I think a return of PS Home is kind of an obvious next step and a VR mode obviously makes sense there. I could imagine PC support rolling out with PS Home.

But it's interesting to think that people think this is it for PSVR2. It's only the beginning. Once Sony's PC strategy evolves and becomes more clear we're going to really start to see the puzzle pieces line up.

I think we may get games like Spider-Man with VR modes

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Whats stopping Sony from making Half Life Alyx level of games on it?

So far it seems more like a Vita level support to me. Half hearted and barely there.

Once they go all out on it, I will pick it up.

I think you've convinced yourself of that given Horizon and GT7

I think part if it is the immense levels of entitlement in the gaming community.

Sony: Here's a cool VR headset. It's a bit pricey, but it's really good!
Entitled one: At that price?! Fuck off.
Sony: Well, if it were cheaper, would you buy one.
Entitled one: Maybe.
Sony: Just 'maybe'? Are you even interested in VR?
Entitled one: I have strong opinions and people should listen to me. *Goes play Warzone*

I have no interest in golf. I don't go around complaining about the cost of many gold clubs and wouldn't shit on some new driver a company produces just because it'd be expensive.

I think people misunderstand what "success" means to Sony on PSVR2 and whether they even need PSVR2 to be a "success" VR is in a very iterative stage. Sony isn't looking to get 20 million people on PSVR2. They're going to use this to drive engagement on PS and probably (my estimation) to help them drive a PC launcher with AAA games that aren't available on any other VR storefront.

 

[Fredrik]

VR headsets will never have great sales or the same experience as tried and true couch gaming. When you got a thing on your head, nobody is going to play it for hours and hours.

Too lazy to find the article, but Meta even had a study saying around 50% of VR users stop using it after 6 months. And they werent talking about that VR Metaverse Horizon thing. It was VR usage as a whole.

If you got a gaming experience that is suppose to be ultra wow factor, yet half the people bail on it after half a year, it shows the shitload of games available for it arent worth playing. And thats even considering VR gamers got an advantage of cheap priced games while full budget gamers playing with M/KB or a gamepad have to consider full price. On the other hand, how often do you see a traditional console or PC gamers buying new hardware and already stop playing it after 6 months?

Yeah. That’s exactly what happened for me as well, and I was hyped enough at the start that regular gaming was meh in comparison but it still wasn’t enough.

Sadly, VR is going to be niche for a long long time, the VR industry might even collapse within a couple years. It feels like nobody in charge understand what’s needed - AAA games from the A-teams at the AAA studios, comfortable headsets with long battery life that you can pick up and use without hurdles.
A low price is nice but that’s not why people stop using it. It’s always the lack of AAA games and uncomfortable usage that makes people use it as a niche peripheral and not as their main gaming platform. Plus, the isolated experience and motion sickness issues will never go away.

 

[Katajx]

I will wait and see how it pans out. I really wanted a psvr and waited till I found one used at $299. Everything about this seems better but I want more games that seem like full AAA games playable in VR than smaller bite sized games that feel more like tech demos.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

I think we may get games like Spider-Man with VR modes

Literally the one game we will probably never have in VR though lol

Sony is going to keep building their VR ecosystem and talent base. As Meta has VR layoffs, Sony will pick up their talent.

I think Year 1 Sony will focus on PSVR2 on PS5 and in year 2 we'll see the focus expand to PC with GT7 and Horizon coming to PC.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Yeah. That’s exactly what happened for me as well, and I was hyped enough at the start that regular gaming was meh in comparison but it still wasn’t enough.

Sadly, VR is going to be niche for a long long time, the VR industry might even collapse within a couple years. It feels like nobody in charge understand what’s needed - AAA games from the A-teams at the AAA studios, comfortable headsets with long battery life that you can pick up and play use without hurdles.
A low price is nice but that’s not why people stop using it. It’s always the lack of AAA games and uncomfortable usage that makes people use it as a niche peripheral and not as their main gaming platform. Plus, the isolated experience and motion sickness issues will never go away.

I mean Polyphony Digital is still one of the biggest deals in SIE and they just made one of the biggest PS5 games entirely playable in VR....

Will we see Naughty Dog do a VR game? Maybe maybe not. They're doing a multiplayer game. I think as the studios expand, you'll see them dabble more and more in VR if they want.

 

[Katajx]

As genius as Carmack is, this just comes across as sniping from the sides.

He spent getting on for a decade working on VR and it's... not really taken off at all. I think he's a bit bitter about that, whether he admits it or not.

Complaining about the price, while valid, is a poor argument. It's on the cheaper side for the specs you get, both for PSVR2 and the PS5. An equivalent PC setup would cost more.

I just don’t know. I think of it as more of the man dedicated this much of his life into a technology he deemed to be a transformative experience, and is worried about the people selling it doing an earlier Steve Jobs and pricing it in a place where it could struggle to succeed.

 

[Three]

Less work in what meaningful way to Sony? These large electronics companies are set up to handle distributed markets.

I think he is looking at it from a developer cost perspective. Localisation and distribution.

 

[Tams]

I just don’t know. I think of it as more of the man dedicated this much of his life into a technology he deemed to be a transformative experience, and is worried about the people selling it doing an earlier Steve Jobs and pricing it in a place where it could struggle to succeed.

Sniping from the sidelines does no good.

If you have the skills and care that much; either get on the pitch again or stay off it and shut up.