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[plagiarize]

That theory was tested and proven on consoles when most ignored trophies at first.t.

it doesn't prove anything. either they are easy to implement and many devs will, or they won't be and many devs won't. that was then, this is now. many people add steam achievements because it's easy to do if you've already got achievements in your game. if it's as easy as Chub's iOS example to get Miiverse to take a screenshot of your 'achievement' and post it to the wall, devs will do it.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

keeping with the movie theme...

assuming both costs the same... what would you prefer?

1. Citizen Kane DVD that contains ONLY the movie
2. Citizen Kane DVD that contains the movie, an interview with Orson Wells, deleted scenes, storyboards and director/actors commentary?

in the option 2, you don't HAVE to watch all the extras, but it's a nice thing to have there in case you want to re-watch the movie and learn more about it.

That's not the same thing at all. No one is taking content out of the games.

It would be more akin to

1. Citizen Kane DVD that contains the movie, an interview with Orson Wells, deleted scenes, storyboards and director/actors commentary
2. Citizen Kane DVD that contains the movie, an interview with Orson Wells, deleted scenes, storyboards and director/actors commentary that when you watch something it says good job, and makes a post telling all your friends you watched it on facebook

It's a bunch of meaningless bullshit. You are not your gamerscore/trophy count.

MS and Sony could erase my gamerscore, and trophy list right now, and I would not give 2 flying fucks about it.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

Maybe this is the beginning of the end for glorified high score tables.

 

[Teletraan1]

Got some hard data for that?

Randy Pitchford (Borderlands) said the same:

http://www.destructoid.com/pitchford-easy-achievements-translate-to-sales-151315.phtml?a=4536

Since I am just a forum poster and not a firm that collects sales data, no I don't, but as others have posted in this thread, there is a correlation between easy achievements and sales. Terminator Salvation devs saying they owe 50k sales because of easy achievements and Randy Pitchford in that article talking about data they have collected that show achievement hunters will buy games based on collecting achievements.

Getting a Third Party dev and extra 50k sales is nothing to sneeze at and definitely seems like it would be worth the effort/cost to mandate that they be there.

From the article - "The Achievement hunter, who's going to make purchase decisions around the Achievements per minute to ratio -- he's probably buying ten to twenty titles a year, or at least playing that many,” Pitchford told Official Xbox Magazine in a recent interview. “He's playing a lot. So he's a very frequent customer, and you want to be in that pile. That's just business."

"The time it takes is minimal because you're designing Achievements anyway, and you can probably affect your sales by something like 10 and 40 thousand units. If you're talking about a triple-A game selling between 1 and 2.5 million units. You're talking tens of thousands of units of impact there,” said Pitchford.

 

[King_Moc]

Since I am just a forum poster and not a firm that collects sales data, no I don't, but as others have posted in this thread, there is a correlation between easy achievements and sales. Terminator Salvation devs saying they owe 50k sales because of easy achievements and Randy Pitchford in that article talking about data they have collected that show achievement hunters will buy games based on collecting achievements.

Getting a Third Party dev and extra 50k sales is nothing to sneeze at and definitely seems like it would be worth the effort/cost to mandate that they be there.

From the article - "The Achievement hunter, who's going to make purchase decisions around the Achievements per minute to ratio -- he's probably buying ten to twenty titles a year, or at least playing that many,” Pitchford told Official Xbox Magazine in a recent interview. “He's playing a lot. So he's a very frequent customer, and you want to be in that pile. That's just business."

"The time it takes is minimal because you're designing Achievements anyway, and you can probably affect your sales by something like 10 and 40 thousand units. If you're talking about a triple-A game selling between 1 and 2.5 million units. You're talking tens of thousands of units of impact there,” said Pitchford.

Is it right to take advantage of people that clearly have issues?

 

[GraveRobberX]

Is it right to take advantage of people that clearly have issues?

Right people who enjoy achievements/trophies have issues... amazing!

 

[Barack Lesnar]

Is it right to take advantage of people that clearly have issues?

That's mean thing to say about a large group of people (i'm not one of them, just saying).

 

[King_Moc]

Right people who enjoy achievements/trophies have issues... amazing!

Whatever, i was clearly alluding to people that buy certain games just for the achievements.

 

[Baconsammy]

Videogames are not designed to be addictive, but Achievements are designed this way. There many analyse written about them, for example the link in my other post, so a possible danger of Achievements is still not disarmed.

What the? No they're not. They're designed to extend the life of a game in the hopes that you won't trade a game in immediately upon beating it. They were also designed to keep you gaming on one console.

 

[The Boat]

Most developers already do give something for achievements/trophies.

This isn't true at all.

 

[GraveRobberX]

Whatever, i was clearly alluding to people that buy certain games just for the achievements.

Dude your being an asshole, generalizing something you don't partake in

Clearly I have issues for Platinuming games, crazy person trying to finish a checklist amirite?

So what I buy games for cheevs/trophies, I'm still supporting the industry

You know which people have issues, those who think their superior by saying others have issues and have no effect on them

 

[Teletraan1]

Is it right to take advantage of people that clearly have issues?

A fool and his money are easily parted.

 

[Margalis]

Terminator Salvation devs saying they owe 50k sales because of easy achievements and Randy Pitchford in that article talking about data they have collected that show achievement hunters will buy games based on collecting achievements.

Getting a Third Party dev and extra 50k sales is nothing to sneeze at and definitely seems like it would be worth the effort/cost to mandate that they be there.

1. There is no way the 50k number is accurate given total sales of the game.

2. There's no way for them to know exactly why people bought the game.

3. Having achievements that are very easy to get relative to other games is a short-term competitive advantage, not an across-the-board bump in sales, and if developers took advantage of that it would mean a race to the bottom with increasingly easy and pointless achievements.

The idea that game sales as a whole increase because of achievements is just not substantiated in any way.

You make it sound like if devs want to sell a game they can just put in easy achievements and voila - sales! The reality is if more than a handful devs tried that approach as an actual business strategy it would immediately stop working while actively lowering the quality of games. It's a classic prisoner's dilemma - if you do it and none of your competitors do you benefit but if you all do you all lose out.

Edit: Given the re-emergence of PC games, the growth of social/mobile game, and general stagnation in console game sales it seems hard to believe that the addition of achievements this gen has increased sales measurably, especially given that a lot of the big hits are on Wii.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

Whatever, i was clearly alluding to people that buy certain games just for the achievements.

And this hurts publishers sales how exactly?

 

[Jarnet87]

Nintendo correctly trying to change things back to when they were better. Damn do I hate achievements.

 

[Joeshabadoo]

Let's all stop kidding ourselves (if some of us were). This was never going to be a 'hardcore system of choice', but if Nintendo simply were able to accomplish more to achieve a balance of appeal between avid players and less-avid players it would go a long way. They never want to be back in a three-horse race in terms of feature sets and functionality. Differentiation is the name of this vessel, and has been since the DS launched.

You can see this as one less persistent goal tally that the avid players will have to worry about or obsess over. All the while developers are still slightly encouraged to include accomplishment lists in an effort to increase the life of their game.

The activity log will allow players of all levels to have a persistent record of their gameplay, which is something, and I almost find it more interesting than a checklist of goals. Every couple months I get a real kick out of checking my 3DS activity log

 

[Margalis]

LOL. You can't say 'good riddance' to something you were never capable of implementing in the first place.

Just wanted to highlight this post for the laughs.

 

[spekkeh]

Sorry for the late reply.

No problem, I was fearing I missed it somewhere in the huge post diarrhea that came between and I was going to have to read everything.

First of all, your assumption is that there was no reward for playing games a certain way before there were Achievements. This is simply not true as we've always been rewarded. Arcade machines allowed us to play again if we followed the rules, leaderboards showed our name if we did well, and friends were looking up to us for being really good at a game. You could have made the same argument 25 years ago and could have said that the fact that we can only continue playing if we achieve a certain goal, our freedom is compromised. It's just that: Gaming has always been about rewards.
(...) Not all Achievements are the same but they can be seen as a form of positive reinforcement.

Sorry if I'm truncating and replying to all of the previous arguments at once, and sorry if I misunderstood what you're trying to say, it's late here and had a long day at work. I wasn't arguing about rewards per se, but extrinsic rewards. Achievements are a system that (at least the GP reward portion) are semantically separated from the game itself. Even though you perform actions in the game to attain them, the gamerpoints have no meaning for the game itself. That is why in theory it's different from the actual goals and corresponding rewards in a game, but can conversely be considered extrinsic rewards. Admittedly this part is a bit theoretical; there's some research on Self-Determination Theory in game design (amongst others by myself , but obviously the research in paper I mentioned, that shows the negative influence of extrinsic rewards on task attitude/engagement, wasn't with a game. Games are systems so the distinction is a bit blurry. Getting an achievement is predictable and self-motivated, but then again so is saying 'you get $10 for finishing your homework'. You're free to not agree with Achievements as being extrinsic rewards, we'd need to do additional research to determine that. In my view they are though.

If you want to quote a study and want to apply it to achievements, you'd need to have a study that examines the different types of gamers. There are people who don't look at achievement lists and are just happy when the little notification pops up. There are people who go out of their way just to get those points. There are people who go out of their way just a little big but are not the type of player who wants to get everything all the time. There are also people who just don't care about achievements at all and didn't change their gaming habits in any way due to achievements. There's not one single type of gamer and assuming that one action will cause the same reaction for every single type is not a good idea.

That's a very valid point of course. The thing with statistical tests is that they (generally) work on means. On average, people will have a more negative attitude towards a task if they were presented with (some forms of) extrinsic rewards. Individually, it could be a whole different picture. It's also very possible that there's a large variability in there, where achievement-oriented gamers appreciate them more than new-experiences-oriented gamers (just like there are game types where achievements are much more natural to incorporate and feel less extrinsically motivated than in other games). In fact, I think that's highly plausible. It may even be possible that gamers are a whole different breed than regular people, though I don't believe that. I think on average the gamer population is not that different in their psychology of intrinsic/extrinsic rewards. If anything, they're more seeking out psychological needs of intrinsic motivation, as good games stimulate this.

As I mentioned, the achievement design is very varied. We have achievements that require skill, we have achievements that require time, and so on. People have to set their priorities themselves.

This seems strange, surely Achievements, in the Xbox sense, are a preset 'checklist' by the game developer and therefore impeding on player autonomy.

 

[IceDoesntHelp]

It'd be funny if there were accomplishments, but they came in that OS update coming this week.

 

[Soulscribe]

While I hate achievements I don't understand why Nintendo never seems to look at the competition's peripheral features and at least matches it. It's always an issue that Nintendo has to deal with. Two steps forwards, two steps back every time. Damn.

 

[zruben]

That's not the same thing at all. No one is taking content out of the games.

It would be more akin to

1. Citizen Kane DVD that contains the movie, an interview with Orson Wells, deleted scenes, storyboards and director/actors commentary
2. Citizen Kane DVD that contains the movie, an interview with Orson Wells, deleted scenes, storyboards and director/actors commentary that when you watch something it says good job, and makes a post telling all your friends you watched it on facebook

It's a bunch of meaningless bullshit. You are not your gamerscore/trophy count.

MS and Sony could erase my gamerscore, and trophy list right now, and I would not give 2 flying fucks about it.

sounds like you don't own a xbox/ps3 or you have really douche friends with xbox/ps3

 

[steveovig]

It'd be funny if there were accomplishments, but they came in that OS update coming this week.

Accomplishments do exist though.

 

[IceDoesntHelp]

Accomplishments do exist though.

I mean OS level. Unless I'm missing something here.

 

[hatchx]

Most developers already do give something for achievements/trophies.

I really hate the argument that "well developers can just add their own achievements." If you really think this benefits 3rd parties from having to develop achievements, you're wrong, because a majority of games in the planning stages already have achievements built in the game design.

This is literally all I have to do with a game on iOS using Game Center to unlock an achievement:

unlock_gamecenter_achievement(variable);

Boom, Apple does the rest. Now users can compare with friends on which achievements they've unlocked, share with others, and so on.

If I was making a Wii U game, I would have to (1) figure out if I want those in game achievements to be public via a web browser or something, which means I would need to set up servers and support for users wanting to share achievements, (2) create my own UI design and unlock system for achievements and fit it into the game, taking away time from other game design elements, (3) create a custom display and menu page for all of the achievements (which most devs do anyways, but it's even more necessary with custom achievements).

So yeah, this doesn't help 3rd parties. This doesn't help anyone. Nintendo could have added an achievement system and made it optional for devs, which would have still angered a few but it would have been in the developers best interest. But this is typical Nintendo.

I see your point.
As long as it's optional it's all good.

I still think Miiverse is more or less achievements no?

 

[TheGreatDivide]

Replying to provocative posts like this normally isn't my thing. After doing this for over a dozen years, I've learned the fact that; no response is sometimes the best response. The back and forth arguments doesn't really do it for me.

I was, however, going to reply to that very last line of yours(more on that later), so I may as well respond to the entire post.

You found my post to be a "nonsense argument," but you're relating that to me implying I'm being forced to do achievements. Rather, I was suggesting that the system itself is forced upon you, whether you like/want it or not. You are IN that system where your stats or gamer score is displayed and people compare their stats, hence, I said:

"forces stats upon gamers whether they intentionally participate or not."

That's what I meant by the term "force." I wish there was a leave-me-out-of-this-nonsense button, but there isn't. If that's not forced, I don't know what is.

You like the achievement system. I get that. Kudos to you! I think the system - despite making thing easier to compare -is largely built on trivial tasks, possible to cheat, and offers little to no reward. On top of that, I gave examples of why I think that, and examples of how much more engaging & rewarding games of what past were, having their own unique challenges.

For all the bolding you complained about, you still missed the main point. I'm not necessarily against "achievements" per say, but the system. I hate having to repeat myself, but it's all there man:

"I'm all for competition, stat comparing, and what's not but let's face it, the current achievement system is broken in many ways...There can be better ways to approach this...may breed more meaningful ways to challenge us, offer valuable rewards, and more ideal ways to acknowledge a gamer's skill."

It's cool if you're satisfied with the current system and those visions for something better don't appeal to you. You see the lack of system wide acheivements as Nintendo being behind to curve, while I see it as an opportunity to offer a more compelling alternative. I mentioned MiiVerse being an element. We'll have to wait and see.


And about that whole "arrogant" comment you made. If a person can draw that conclusion simply because I bold certain portions of my post in a forum, then that's their own problem, their own issues, and their own feelings. I can't control people emotions. I bold (quite often too) for those who usually just skim through the pages - especially those who've been following the thread - and may not want to fully read pages upon pages of comments. We're all quilty of this from time to time. That way, they can at least pick out some key points even if they don't wish to read the entire post/page. I wish every one would do this, even at the risk of others calling them arrogant. What's arrogant in your eyes, is considerate in mine. Crazy world, I know! Anyway, if you were that worked up to mention it, and aren't able to keep your feelings in check, then you may as well do yourself a favor and put me on ignore, since you'll see a lot more of it, and will always be offended.

Your argument boils down to "I don't like it therefore it's a good thing the console doesn't support it". That's stupid. If you're too immature to ignore achievements if you hate them so much, that's your problem, not the rest of the worlds. Some of us have grown up.

Having system wide achievements doesn't prevent them from also doing something "new" that would be deemed satisfactory based on your rather peculiar opinions. They can co-exist. Miiverse can do all it's "hey look your friends Miis are there saying shit" stuff while also giving multiplatform games feature parity.

 

[steveovig]

I mean OS level. Unless I'm missing something here.

Ok I thought meant they didn't exist period. Sorry about that.

 

[Pharros]

I mean OS level. Unless I'm missing something here.

According to Ideaman devs have only JUST received the Miiverse/OS update with features.. Would that mean Jackson would not have seen all features yet when he made the no achievement comment? You never know I guess.

 

[Stumpokapow]

I prefer games to have real achievements than some generic thing all games have.Real rewards instead of points.

Smash Bros's trophies is the best example I can think of.
It's a much better system than the generic beat chapter 1,2,3, kill 100 bats etc... type of achievements.

Are you sure about that?

Smash Bros Brawl
Just Do It:
A20: Clear the "Flower Blooms in the Echoes" Event. - Hanenbow Stage
A21: Clear "The Hammer of the King" Event. - King Dedede's Theme Music
A11: Clear the "Wario Bros." Event. - Mario Bros. Stage

Difficulty:
A01: Clear Boss Battles on Intense difficulty. - Galleom (Tank Form) Trophy
A10: Clear Boss Battles on Easy difficulty. - Subspace Bomb Trophy
A12: Clear All-Star with no continues. - Pichu Troph
A16: Clear All-Star on Very Hard difficulty. - Dyna Blade Trophy

Time:
A02: Clear Target Smash level 1 in under 15 seconds. - Palutena's Bow Trophy
A03: Clear Target Smash level 4 in under 32 seconds. - Cardboard Box Trophy
A06: Clear 100-Man Brawl in under 3 minutes, 30 seconds. - Ryuta Ippongi (Ouendan 2) Sticker
A23: Clear Target Smash level 3 in under 20 seconds. - Ray MK III Trophy
A25: Clear 100-Man Brawl in under 4 minutes. - Multi-Man Melee 1 (Melee)Music

High Score/Endurance:
A04: Hit 1,200 ft. in Home-Run Contest. - Clu Clu Land Music
A18: Defeat 5 enemies in Cruel Brawl. - Red Alloy Trophy
A22: Endure a 15-Minute Brawl. - Green Alloy Trophy
A27: Clear Target Smash level 5. - Title (3D Hot Rally) Music
A30: Defeat 100 enemies in Endless Brawl. - Yellow Alloy Trophy
A32: Hit 45,000 ft. combined with all fighters' Home-Run Contest records. - Golden Hammer Trophy

Do something many times / keep playing:
A05: Use Captain Falcon 10 times in brawls. - Big Blue (Melee) Stage
A07: Clear All-Star with 10 characters. - Gekko Trophy
A08: Brawl on the Green Hill Zone stage 10 times. - HIS WORLD (Instrumental) Music
A13: Get 200 different stickers. - Pokemon Center Music
A14: Use Toon Link 10 times in brawls. - Zelda: Ocarina of Time Masterpiece
A15: Clear Target Smash level 4 with 10 characters - Musketeer Daltania Trophy
A19: Play 10 or more Coin matches. - Smash Coins Trophy
A26: Collect trophies for all characters. - Creeping Chrysanthemum Trophy
A28: Get 10 max combos in Training. - Banana Peel Trophy
A29: Brawl on the Port Town Aero Dive stage 10 times. - Dream Chaser Music
A31: Clear Classic with 20 characters. - Master Hand Trophy

Other/Unknown:
A09: Unlock Toon Link. - Pirate Ship Stage
A17: Unlock all playable characters. - Menu 2 Music
A24: Collect all Masterpieces. - Excitebikes Trophy

I only bothered doing the first column of four.

 

[Tathanen]

While I hate achievements I don't understand why Nintendo never seems to look at the competition's peripheral features and at least matches it. It's always an issue that Nintendo has to deal with. Two steps forwards, two steps back every time. Damn.

Becuase Nintendo does not give a shit. People can agree with this achievements decision, disagree, but the fact is that "what the competitors do" is not on Nintendo's checklist. It never has been, it never will be, regardless of what boxes Reggie-the-figurehead yaps about trying to check. Every post screaming to the high heavens about the "mistakes they are making" needs to understand this. No matter what damage it may cause to their GAF mindshare, no matter what issues it may cause with third parties, they do. not. care.

Nintendo plays its own game, with its own rules, and if they are perceived as "losing" in the PS360 industry, their response is simple: "what." They do not care. They are not paying attention, they do not even know that the industry exists. Nintendo competes with one thing and one thing only: their previous record.

The community outrage every time Nintendo acts exactly like Nintendo is mindboggling to me. You can think it's terrible, you can want to support other machines instead, but how can anyone EVER act SURPRISED? This is what Nintendo is! They have never been anything else! How can ANYONE expect them to be something different, and shriek to the heavens when their expectation is proved nonsense?

They will make a system that fits their ideals of what video games are about. You are either on board their train to magic land, or you are not. The Wii U is not Nintendo's answer to the PS3 and 360. It is Nintendo's answer to a world in HD and with internet. They will interpret that world in whatsoever way they please, and it will be different than what we have now. It will always be different. Sometimes that means new and amazing ideas that challenge our perceptions of what a system could be. Sometimes it means seemingly-obvious things that are missing for no reason whatsoever.

This is NOT my way of saying that they are immune to critique. People can hate them, cite them as dinosaurs oblivious to reality. I am just trying to set expectations here. It's like you said, guy I quoted. "It's always an issue Nintendo has to deal with." I just think that the "issue" here isn't actually one that THEY are dealing with. It's one that enthusiast gamers have to deal with. It's only an "issue" if you expect something different. And after so many years, no one should be expecting anything different. It works for them. They have no reason to change.

 

[faceless007]

Your argument boils down to "I don't like it therefore it's a good thing the console doesn't support it".

It really doesn't.

 

[Sobriquet]

I still think Miiverse is more or less achievements no?

Is it? I can compare my progress with a friend's progress in any game?

 

[DDayton]

Are you sure about that?

(text deleted)

I only bothered doing the first column of four.

See, I prefer the Sakurai setup not because the achievements/accomplishments/whatever are more "meaningful," but because there are a large number of smaller things and each unlocks a little bonus to the game. I always saw them more as "unlocking neat extras" than "record of what you did."

... but, yes, Melee/Brawl/Uprising do have a large number of "exacting, pointless" requirements for many unlockable bonuses. In theory, you'd get a lot of them simply via regular play, but...

 

[Plinko]

Becuase Nintendo does not give a shit. People can agree with this achievements decision, disagree, but the fact is that "what the competitors do" is not on Nintendo's checklist. It never has been, it never will be, regardless of what boxes Reggie-the-figurehead yaps about trying to check. Every post screaming to the high heavens about the "mistakes they are making" needs to understand this. No matter what damage it may cause to their GAF mindshare, no matter what issues it may cause with third parties, they do. not. care.

Nintendo plays its own game, with its own rules, and if they are perceived as "losing" in the PS360 industry, their response is simple: "what." They do not care. They are not paying attention, they do not even know that the industry exists. Nintendo competes with one thing and one thing only: their previous record.

The community outrage every time Nintendo acts exactly like Nintendo is mindboggling to me. You can think it's terrible, you can want to support other machines instead, but how can anyone EVER act SURPRISED? This is what Nintendo is! They have never been anything else! How can ANYONE expect them to be something different, and shriek to the heavens when their expectation is proved nonsense?

They will make a system that fits their ideals of what video games are about. You are either on board their train to magic land, or you are not. The Wii U is not Nintendo's answer to the PS3 and 360. It is Nintendo's answer to a world in HD and with internet. They will interpret that world in whatsoever way they please, and it will be different than what we have now. It will always be different. Sometimes that means new and amazing ideas that challenge our perceptions of what a system could be. Sometimes it means seemingly-obvious things that are missing for no reason whatsoever.

This is NOT my way of saying that they are immune to critique. People can hate them, cite them as dinosaurs oblivious to reality. I am just trying to set expectations here. It's like you said, guy I quoted. "It's always an issue Nintendo has to deal with." I just think that the "issue" here isn't actually one that THEY are dealing with. It's one that enthusiast gamers have to deal with. It's only an "issue" if you expect something different. And after so many years, no one should be expecting anything different. It works for them. They have no reason to change.

Well saId.

 

[Septimius]

I never got what the deal with achievements is, anyway. I've never once enjoyed trying to get one, and it's one of those arbitrary and compelling things. But compelling does not mean good. I've learnt to just let stupid shit like that go. There's no point in getting all the big coins in the New Super Mario Bros games.

I'm glad that they're gone. I'm not in the camp of "well, I can just ignore them if they're there" - because it's changed gaming, and not for the better.

 

[H_Prestige]

Becuase Nintendo does not give a shit. People can agree with this achievements decision, disagree, but the fact is that "what the competitors do" is not on Nintendo's checklist. It never has been, it never will be, regardless of what boxes Reggie-the-figurehead yaps about trying to check. Every post screaming to the high heavens about the "mistakes they are making" needs to understand this. No matter what damage it may cause to their GAF mindshare, no matter what issues it may cause with third parties, they do. not. care.

Nintendo plays its own game, with its own rules, and if they are perceived as "losing" in the PS360 industry, their response is simple: "what." They do not care. They are not paying attention, they do not even know that the industry exists. Nintendo competes with one thing and one thing only: their previous record.

The community outrage every time Nintendo acts exactly like Nintendo is mindboggling to me. You can think it's terrible, you can want to support other machines instead, but how can anyone EVER act SURPRISED? This is what Nintendo is! They have never been anything else! How can ANYONE expect them to be something different, and shriek to the heavens when their expectation is proved nonsense?

They will make a system that fits their ideals of what video games are about. You are either on board their train to magic land, or you are not. The Wii U is not Nintendo's answer to the PS3 and 360. It is Nintendo's answer to a world in HD and with internet. They will interpret that world in whatsoever way they please, and it will be different than what we have now. It will always be different. Sometimes that means new and amazing ideas that challenge our perceptions of what a system could be. Sometimes it means seemingly-obvious things that are missing for no reason whatsoever.

This is NOT my way of saying that they are immune to critique. People can hate them, cite them as dinosaurs oblivious to reality. I am just trying to set expectations here. It's like you said, guy I quoted. "It's always an issue Nintendo has to deal with." I just think that the "issue" here isn't actually one that THEY are dealing with. It's one that enthusiast gamers have to deal with. It's only an "issue" if you expect something different. And after so many years, no one should be expecting anything different. It works for them. They have no reason to change.

So you think if Sony or MS weren't around, not a single thing about the Wii U would be different?

 

[Joeshabadoo]

There's no point in getting all the big coins in the New Super Mario Bros games.

uh lol? Yea an entire new selection of 6-8 stages is not incentive in the slightest. Also simply clearing the stages while acquiring those coins represents the player choosing to accept the highest level of challenge that the designers are presenting. I'm in agreement with you overall regarding achievements, but an example like the star coins in NSMB games does not represent any of the potential negatives of achievement systems upon game design. They are placed there to provide the optional challenge, result in unlocking new content as a reward, but are not then directly tied to a persistent tally that inevitably drives many to feel the need to whip it out all the time and see whose is bigger.

So you think if Sony or MS weren't around, not a single thing about the Wii U would be different?

If third party developers/publishers weren't around, many a thing would be different. The lack of MS and Sony would obviously mean differences, but not a ton

 

[zruben]

See, I prefer the Sakurai setup not because the achievements/accomplishments/whatever are more "meaningful," but because there are a large number of smaller things and each unlocks a little bonus to the game. I always saw them more as "unlocking neat extras" than "record of what you did."

... but, yes, Melee/Brawl/Uprising do have a large number of "exacting, pointless" requirements for many unlockable bonuses. In theory, you'd get a lot of them simply via regular play, but...

wouldn't be great to do both?... that's why I'm sad.

Activity Log + Achievements would be so freaking good.

 

[hatchx]

Is it? I can compare my progress with a friend's progress in any game?

I think so, but it won't make most launch games. NSMBU, for example, if I get a high coin count on a level (and get a GOLD coin ranking), I believe my WiiU friends will see that and be able to compare their coin counts and talk about it in a twitter-style message system.


But I really don't know, this is just how I thought it worked.

 

[Tathanen]

So you think if Sony or MS weren't around, not a single thing about the Wii U would be different?

Well that's a pretty hard question to answer. Do you mean if they both disappeared three years ago? Do you mean if they had never existed in the first place? The players in the overall video game industry clearly all helped to shape it. I'm referring mostly to individual features or expectations. Nintendo doesn't look at what a competitor's doing and try to match it, but maybe they'll try to make their system powerful enough to run the games that third parties want to make. Very generalized stuff.

Or, ya know, maybe they won't. There was that whole Wii thing, which sure as hell wasn't shaped by the 360 or PS3. The Wii U being a bit more standardized here is probably just to ensure more third-party support, but the specifics of the framework are gonna be where they go their own way.

"Can it play today's games? Yeah? Okay, good enough, now do whatever you want."

 

[Palette Swap]

wouldn't be great to do both?... that's why I'm sad.

Activity Log + Achievements would be so freaking good.

To be fair, I'll bitch as much if the next PS/Xbox don't come with activity logs, built in screenshots, etc.

 

[H_Prestige]

Well that's a pretty hard question to answer. Do you mean if they both disappeared three years ago? Do you mean if they had never existed in the first place? The players in the overall video game industry clearly all helped to shape it. I'm referring mostly to individual features or expectations. Nintendo doesn't look at what a competitor's doing and try to match it, but maybe they'll try to make their system powerful enough to run the games that third parties want to make. Very generalized stuff.

Or, ya know, maybe they won't. There was that whole Wii thing, which sure as hell wasn't shaped by the 360 or PS3. The Wii U being a bit more standardized here is probably just to ensure more third-party support, but the specifics of the framework are gonna be where they go their own way.

"Can it play today's games? Yeah? Okay, good enough, now do whatever you want."

I think Nintendo used to play by their own rules, do whatever the hell they wanted. But the Wii U is like a reactionary console. It's almost like a Nintendo branded 360/ps3. The controller, the OS, feature-set, the disc size. Gamers asked for traditional controls and 360 like features, so Nintendo is bringing it. Publishers want more space, so Nintendo is offering it, even though their own games would fit comfortably on DVD.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

Because Nintendo does not give a shit.

And this is why Nintendo hasn't had the hardcore audience and third parties have not made a Nintendo console the lead platform since the SNES.

 

[BGBW]

And this is why Nintendo hasn't had the hardcore audience and third parties have not made a Nintendo system the lead platform since the SNES.

Wait, am I in that parallel universe thread still?

Who are the hardcore audience? Are we talking about the people who can beat a bullet hell with one credit or those who wear gaming tshirts? Seeing as the definition has changed over time it is quite obviously now a marketing term that people have bought into like Blast Processing in order to differentiate themselves from Nintendo. So of course the "hardcore" audiences isn't on Nintendo's machines because that would ruin the whole point of the word. And seeing as you said systems and not consoles your whole statement ignores their handhelds which was home to a lot of third party exclusives.

At least use some facts to back up your arguments.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

sounds like you don't own a xbox/ps3 or you have really douche friends with xbox/ps3

I own all 3 systems, and have cool friends. I still don't give a flying fuck about a gamerscore or trophies. As I said Sony and MS could reset my numbers to 0 I still would not give any fucks.

 

[dragonfart28]

Can't say I really give a damn, but there are definitely some crazy people out there who wouldn't buy a system because of this.

 

[LevityNYC]

More people wouldn't buy a Wii U (and games for it ) because it doesn't have achievements than would buy it because it didn't.

Any argument against that?

 

[mantidor]

More people wouldn't buy a Wii U (and games for it ) because it doesn't have achievements than would buy it because it didn't.

Any argument against that?

I actually think is the opposite, while a certain demographic lives and goes by achievements, that kind of competitiveness turns off a lot of the so-called "casual" crowd, which is the overwhelming majority, which I think is the reason Nintendo is skipping achievements... if Nintendo is really killing any kind of system-wide achievement, which I think the aren't. Miiverse really looks like is going to be a form of that, only more "friendly" and "social" and "cozy" and less "I have 103 points and you only have 102".

 

[clashfan]

Nintendo plays its own game, with its own rules, and if they are perceived as "losing" in the PS360 industry, their response is simple: "what." They do not care. They are not paying attention, they do not even know that the industry exists. Nintendo competes with one thing and one thing only: their previous record.

Do you really believe nintendo doesn't pay attention or care about it's competition? Interesting...

 

[Sandfox]

Do you really believe nintendo doesn't pay attention or care about it's competition? Interesting...

They obviously care, but they aren't trying to compete directly with them in some sort of arms race.

 

[plagiarize]

Is it? I can compare my progress with a friend's progress in any game?

most likely. if you can filter the feed by friend and by game, you will be able to see the posts about that game (and from that game) for that person. it's not a side by side list of achievements or any other kind of tabulated metric, but you'll still quite possibly be able to get an idea of how they're enjoying it, how far they are, and what kind of things they've achieved in screenshots.

it might not work that way at all... but we'll see.