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VGLeaks: Details multiple devkits evolution of Orbis

JIT Compilation is fast enough in software I'm just saying if they made a hardware chip that could re compile the code in realtime making a PS3 game a PS4 game in real time.

Why go through that trouble when they can just add the Cell in there and have it do it's thing. It doesn't cost that much for the processor and if they manage to get a 35nm or less made this year then they could include in Orbis for $30 or less (I'm assuming on that price)
 

Ashes

Banned
Why go through that trouble when they can just add the Cell in there and have it do it's thing. It doesn't cost that much for the processor and if they manage to get a 35nm or less made this year then they could include in Orbis for $30 or less (I'm assuming on that price)

30 dollars cost 300million for 10m consoles. Close to a billion dollars 'lost' over the first 3and a bit years. How about they come up with a different solution and save a billion dollars?
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
30 dollars cost 300million for 10m consoles. A billion dollars 'lost' over the first 3and a bit years. How about they come up with a different solution and save a billion dollars?

BC could lead to more profits though, especially if people didn't have a PS3 and the full PSN library is available. It would probably pay for itself if it's ~$30 to implement. I'm not in the camp that think BC is happening because of architecture reasons but if the cost and TDP is low enough it would be well worth it from a financial standpoint.
 

Ashes

Banned
BC could lead to more profits though, especially if people didn't have a PS3 and the full PSN library is available. I'm not in the camp that think BC is happening but if the cost and TDP is low enough it would be well worth it from a financial standpoint.

I meant spend 10,000,000 dollars on engineers coming up with a software solution.

Don't get me wrong, I want bc in my ps4.
 

onQ123

Member
Why go through that trouble when they can just add the Cell in there and have it do it's thing. It doesn't cost that much for the processor and if they manage to get a 35nm or less made this year then they could include in Orbis for $30 or less (I'm assuming on that price)

I think they would rather do it in software or have a $1 - $3 chip that can do this than to have a $30 Cell in millions of consoles without adding $30 more to the console price.
 
30 dollars cost 300million for 10m consoles. Close to a billion dollars 'lost' over the first 3and a bit years. How about they come up with a different solution and save a billion dollars?

It's an investment, imo, they have to make. You're always getting new users who may have not played those PS3 games and with our internet speeds increasing, people are more willing to pay for those games when they are easily available on the PSN store.
 
BC could lead to more profits though, especially if people didn't have a PS3 and the full PSN library is available. I'm not in the camp that think BC is happening but if the cost and TDP is low enough it would be well worth it from a financial standpoint.

every console they sell, they lose more money. They can only make up for it in software. People wouldn't buy as much software if they had BC I would guess.
 

James Sawyer Ford

Gold Member
30 dollars cost 300million for 10m consoles. Close to a billion dollars 'lost' over the first 3and a bit years. How about they come up with a different solution and save a billion dollars?

This assumes that the silicon in CELL is completely unnecessary for the rest of the system other than BC. $30 seems a tad bit too expensive as well, I don't think CELL integration will cost much more than $20, or 5% of the projected system cost -- well worth it, long term.

Given the relatively weak CPU they're going with this gen, CELL would definitely have its place...especially since its architecture is suited for GPGPU/Physics related tasks.
 
every console they sell, they lose more money. They can only make up for it in software. People wouldn't buy as much software if they had BC I would guess.

Are you honestly using the same excuse that Sony used to remove PS2 compatibility from the PS3?
It's the digital age, make it cheap and simple for the consumer to get and they will buy it.
 
30 dollars cost 300million for 10m consoles. Close to a billion dollars 'lost' over the first 3and a bit years. How about they come up with a different solution and save a billion dollars?

Regardless of how it's done, ps4 needs ps3 BC because there is huge opportunity cost with psn sales. It will be a big selling point in a competitive environment where it will be difficult to offer reasons for consumers to buy your console versus another company's.

I don't know about this JIT compilation stuff. Sounds pie in the sky to me, to be able to stick in a ps3 game and have the ps4 just magically "port" it on the fly. That's not how Sony does ps1/ps2 BC, which is straight emulation. I think pharmboy's theory is way more believable, plugging in a Cell or SPU compute unit in the ps4 APU, and having the GPU emulate the RSX and GDDR5 emulate the XDR. And it would provide a boost for ps4 as well.
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
every console they sell, they lose more money. They can only make up for it in software. People wouldn't buy as much software if they had BC I would guess.

Huh? BC would allow them to sell the entire PS3/PSN library which would allow more people to buy more software that has already been marketed and produced, leading to more profits. The can also use PS+ Instant Game Library to market sequels to PS3 games on Orbis.
 

James Sawyer Ford

Gold Member
Also, I think PS3's design was just an anomaly in the playstation line of products -- PS1, PS2, & Vita have backwards compatability.

I don't buy for a second that Sony didn't care about PS2 b/c for PS3...the PS3 system design was just such a clusterfuck, poorly planned, and designed, resulting in chips being made at the last minute without outside vendors, that Sony had no real choice.

With careful planning, Sony would be smart to include BC, especially if CELL is the only roadblock in accomplishing that.
 
Huh? BC would allow them to sell the entire PS3/PSN library which would allow more people to buy more software that has already been marketed and produced, leading to more profits. The can also use PS+ Instant Game Library to market sequels to PS3 games on Orbis.

whos going to buy a ps4 and then buy ps3 games on it? The good games can be ported and sold for PS4. The rest would just be pointless.

Assuming they can sell PS3 games for $20, sony is probably going to get half of it as profit, so for every PS4 sold with BC, they must sell 3 PS3 games. This doesn't happen.
 

James Sawyer Ford

Gold Member
whos going to buy a ps4 and then buy ps3 games on it? The good games can be ported and sold for PS4. The rest would just be pointless.

Assuming they can sell PS3 games for $20, sony is probably going to get half of it as profit, so for every PS4 sold with BC, they must sell 3 PS3 games. This doesn't happen.

A lot of people, I'd imagine. Especially new comers to the platform that never owned a PS3.

And again, CELL integration could help PS4 games, low power blu-ray playback, etc...it's not wasted silicon like the GS/EE are on PS3.
 

deanos

Banned
Also, I think PS3's design was just an anomaly in the playstation line of products -- PS1, PS2, & Vita have backwards compatability.

I don't buy for a second that Sony didn't care about PS2 b/c for PS3...the PS3 system design was just such a clusterfuck, poorly planned, and designed, resulting in chips being made at the last minute without outside vendors, that Sony had no real choice.

With careful planning, Sony would be smart to include BC, especially if CELL is the only roadblock in accomplishing that.
sony will probably sell a 'cell chip' separately that will allow bc.
 
Plus the cell could offer extra compute resources for developers that choose to take advantage of it. So talented teams like Naughty Dog and Santa Monica could get even more out of the system. This perhaps could be what the extra compute resource hinted at in rumors is all about. Add BC and at the same time give more resources to devs that choose to take advantage of it. Or could the cell also be used to ease OS demands?
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
This assumes that the silicon in CELL is completely unnecessary for the rest of the system other than BC. $30 seems a tad bit too expensive as well, I don't think CELL integration will cost much more than $20, or 5% of the projected system cost -- well worth it, long term.

Given the relatively weak CPU they're going with this gen, CELL would definitely have its place...especially since its architecture is suited for GPGPU/Physics related tasks.

I doubt it is this simple any more, but PS2 had PS1 chipset as south bridge for BC
 

Ashes

Banned
I think I've posted earlier on about the economics of a PSN4. Sony would effectively be losing money by having games sitting idle on their servers. It's an interesting quandary. In addition to what i said before, there are other factors for Sony to consider. Say the core rush out and buy 3m ps4s. Now those 3m of their most loyal fans have their ps3s off. That's a big dip in psn income spend if psn4 is radically different - merely because content isn't there. If say everything is seamlessly transferred, that core will keep on buying psn games as they have typically done.

Developers also get to address both platforms to a certain extent.
 
Also, I think PS3's design was just an anomaly in the playstation line of products -- PS1, PS2, & Vita have backwards compatability.

I don't buy for a second that Sony didn't care about PS2 b/c for PS3...the PS3 system design was just such a clusterfuck, poorly planned, and designed, resulting in chips being made at the last minute without outside vendors, that Sony had no real choice.

With careful planning, Sony would be smart to include BC, especially if CELL is the only roadblock in accomplishing that.

That, and that Blu-Ray drive was REALLY expensive to include, at least compared with the DVD drive that microsoft was using.

The PS4 isn't really in the same position- those things are much cheaper now.

sony will probably sell a 'cell chip' separately that will allow bc.

this ignores again that having no PS3 BC breaks compatibility with all PSN games. Sony actually loses money by not giving those consumers access to the titles already on PSN.
 

James Sawyer Ford

Gold Member
Plus the cell could offer extra compute resources for developers that choose to take advantage of it. So talented teams like Naughty Dog and Santa Monica could get even more out of the system. This would perhaps could be what the extra compute resource hinted at in rumors is all about. Add BC and at the same time give more resources to devs that choose to take advantage of it. Or could the cell also be used to ease OS demands?

Yes, it would make sense as an extra computational unit. Kill two birds with one stone. Would make no sense to add a separate computational unit with a different architecture from CELL.
 

androvsky

Member
I was talking about this

Sony staff demoed a handful of upcoming first-party NGP titles, including Uncharted, Little Deviants and WipEout. The source said the latter was "the WipEout HD PS3 engine running on PS3 with no changes to the art platform. That means full resolution, full 60 frames per second. It looks exactly the same as it does on PS3 – all the shader effects are in there".


With Sony urging developers to create releases that work across PS3 and NGP, the implications of this are significant. "They want us to do cross-platform," said the source, explaining that the submission process has been streamlined, with only a single submission required for a title on PSN and NGP.

The publisher also moved to reassure developers that the technical hurdles of cross-platform development were being kept as low as possible.

"Any shaders for PS3 stuff will just work," said the source. "We won't have to rewrite. What would have taken two-to-three months before looks like it could take just one-to-two weeks now. The architecture is obviously different, but it's the same development environment."


they made the PS Vita so it can run a lot of the PS3 code. The PS4 shouldn't have a problem running most of the PS3 code & what it can't run they should have a chip that can recompile the code from PS3 code to PS4 code on the fly using the knowledge that they have about running the code on different platforms.

Note that in both your quotes, they're talking about the GPU shaders. Which won't have to be rewritten because most platforms compile shaders at runtime anyway.

I'm not an expert on emulator theory, but what most emulators do what's called dynamic recompilation. It's pretty much the same thing (in the context of emulation) as JIT, sometimes shortened to dynarec. I think the Sony patent had to do with caching the recompiled code, which as far as I understand is a bit more advanced than the average emulator. It's still not magic, and probably has some significant downsides; buggier if it doesn't properly detect slight changes in compiled code, and probably more uneven performance as the dynarec works on new code.

Keep in mind that if the PS4 does use an 8-core Jaguar, it's about half as powerful as a Cell in terms of theoretical peak flops. So even if it were possible to perfectly translate Cell code to PS4 code by machine ahead of time, the Jag still wouldn't be able to keep up. Let's just say that doesn't bode well for any sort of software emulation.

There's two bright spots here. One, realizing that the last-gen CPU is such a monster that it's still relevant for certain media and gaming-related workloads, it starts to make sense to just throw it in and keep using it for both new and old games.

Two, since the Jaguar is 8 cores, the idea of emulating the Cell at a CPU microcode level starts to become possible... well, it would if the Jag ran at double the clock speed or could execute two non-native (and sometimes incredibly complex) instructions per clock. And that's assuming AMD worked some serious magic with the cache controller. So, uh, better hope Sony decided to include the Cell as an integral part of the PS4.
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
whos going to buy a ps4 and then buy ps3 games on it? The good games can be ported and sold for PS4. The rest would just be pointless.

Assuming they can sell PS3 games for $20, sony is probably going to get half of it as profit, so for every PS4 sold with BC, they must sell 3 PS3 games. This doesn't happen.

PSN games are more likely to be sold on a BC enabled Orbis and people will likely buy more than 3. Factor in Plus subscriptions being able to access the instant game library and it would probably balance out.
 

deanos

Banned
this ignores again that having no PS3 BC breaks compatibility with all PSN games. Sony actually loses money by not giving those consumers access to the titles already on PSN.
expecting sony to come up with a hardware solution is just wishful thinking.
people will buy the ps4 regardless.
 
from a business standpoint, that would be the best solution.

no, because from a business standpoint, Sony directly generates revenue by including access to PSN. This wasn't the case with PS2 backwards compatibility- that was only good for people playing games they already owned, or used titles from gamestop, so it made sense for Sony to stop including it after PS3 titles were established in the market.

even if worst case we assume that including hardware BC is $40 per unit, Sony makes this up by selling a couple of games on the store, or three months of PS+.

Over the lifetime of the system, the average user buys FAR more than this.

From a developer standpoint, not including it means they need to develop PS3 AND PS4 versions of PSN titles- the PS3 isn't going anywhere once PS4 launches, it will have at least 3 years of active life in it, especially since the WiiU will be artificially extending its life somewhat as the wii did for the ps2.
 

James Sawyer Ford

Gold Member
no, because from a business standpoint, Sony directly generates revenue by including access to PSN.

even if worst case we assume that including hardware BC is $40 per unit, Sony makes this up by selling a couple of games on the store, or three months of PS+.

Over the lifetime of the system, the average user buys FAR more than this.

From a developer standpoint, not including it means they need to develop PS3 AND PS4 versions of PSN titles- the PS3 isn't going anywhere once PS4 launches, it will have at least 3 years of active life in it, especially since the WiiU will be artificially extending its life somewhat as the wii did for the ps2.


Agreed.

The separate stand alone chip would mean that BC isn't standard with every PS4...which means that for people on the fence, they're probably not going to get it. But if they had BC in the PS4 already, they'll be more likely to buy older PSN content.

It's a less ideal solution to make it non-standard and separate, from a business perspective.

How many people bought PSP games for the vita?

I don't have any numbers, but probably enough to justify putting BC in the system itself since I don't believe it added any extra costs.

PS4 is a different situation because PS3 is a much more viable platform than PSP ever was.
 
Will be interesting since Cell isn't x86.

Would they need the PPE core, or could a package of 6 SPUs be enough? I know Apple didn't have much trouble switching from PPC to x86.

How many people bought PSP games for the vita?

How many people bought psp games for psp? Not really the best comparison, but I'm sure it's still worthwhile for Sony. They did go out of their way to make a psp emulator for the vita for the sole purpose of continuing psp software sales after all. Now consider that ps3 has much, much, much better software sales than psp.
 

Ashes

Banned
Note that in both your quotes, they're talking about the GPU shaders. Which won't have to be rewritten because most platforms compile shaders at runtime anyway.

I'm not an expert on emulator theory, but what most emulators do what's called dynamic recompilation. It's pretty much the same thing (in the context of emulation) as JIT, sometimes shortened to dynarec. I think the Sony patent had to do with caching the recompiled code, which as far as I understand is a bit more advanced than the average emulator. It's still not magic, and probably has some significant downsides; buggier if it doesn't properly detect slight changes in compiled code, and probably more uneven performance as the dynarec works on new code.

Keep in mind that if the PS4 does use an 8-core Jaguar, it's about half as powerful as a Cell in terms of theoretical peak flops. So even if it were possible to perfectly translate Cell code to PS4 code by machine ahead of time, the Jag still wouldn't be able to keep up. Let's just say that doesn't bode well for any sort of software emulation.

There's two bright spots here. One, realizing that the last-gen CPU is such a monster that it's still relevant for certain media and gaming-related workloads, it starts to make sense to just throw it in and keep using it for both new and old games.

Two, since the Jaguar is 8 cores, the idea of emulating the Cell at a CPU microcode level starts to become possible... well, it would if the Jag ran at double the clock speed or could execute two non-native (and sometimes incredibly complex) instructions per clock. And that's assuming AMD worked some serious magic with the cache controller. So, uh, better hope Sony decided to include the Cell as an integral part of the PS4.

I think PPE is slow - spus are kind of like compute units. An apu is much more powerful than the cell.
 

PaulLFC

Member
How many people bought PSP games for the vita?
Probably quite a lot (relative to the number of Vita owners)? Given that the software situation for Vita is quite slow, and there is a huge PSP back catalogue, coupled with the discounts they frequently have, probably quite a few people have bought at least one PSP game.
 
What are the possibilities of PS3 games performance to increase (like less frame drops, no screen tearing, etc) if they decided to add BC on the PS4?

Because I assume for what I read, they aren't just putting a PS3 inside the PS4, like it was on the PS3 case.
 
Probably quite a lot (relative to the number of Vita owners)? Given that the software situation for Vita is quite slow, and there is a huge PSP back catalogue, coupled with the discounts they frequently have, probably quite a few people have bought at least one PSP game.

I know I immediately bought Persona 3 portable, tactics ogre, and a few classics collections right off the bat- the only Vita titles I have are the ones I got through PS+.

What are the possibilities of PS3 games performance to increase (like less frame drops, no screen tearing, etc) if they decided to add BC on the PS4?

Because I assume for what I read, they aren't just putting a PS3 inside the PS4, like it was on the PS3 case.

probably very low. The ps4 isn't powerful enough to emulate the ps3 in software, so it'll be a hardware based solution that sticks as closely to the PS3 as possible, so as not to break compatibility with existing titles. PS1 and PS2 emulation was close to the original for these reasons. There was some minor loading speedups and texture smoothing, but that's it.
 
Probably quite a lot (relative to the number of Vita owners)? Given that the software situation for Vita is quite slow, and there is a huge PSP back catalogue, coupled with the discounts they frequently have, probably quite a few people have bought at least one PSP game.

But how many on average for total? Nobody I know has bought as PSP game for vita. They have like 3 games total for vita.


here is the total games sold per console for this gen in 2008.
http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Software_tie_ratio

assuming sony can make people buy 3 ps3 games per person per ps4 would mean they would average with only 1 ps4 game.
 

PaulLFC

Member
VGLeaks ‏@VGLeaks
Soon you will be able to read our last article. Orbis or Durango? You'll have to wait until we publish it ;)

Hype!

Edit: Just realised they said "last" and not "latest" - interesting.
 

androvsky

Member
expecting sony to come up with a hardware solution is just wishful thinking.
people will buy the ps4 regardless.
Man, I'm having flashbacks to 2006 here.

Would they need the PPE core, or could a package of 6 SPUs be enough? I know Apple didn't have much trouble switching from PPC to x86.
I honestly don't know if they'd need the PPE or not. It's a 3.2 GHz part, so a 1.6 - 2.0 GHz cpu is not going to emulate it in software, even at 2 instructions per clock. CPU microcode for just the PPE might be possible, but it's hard to say for sure since I don't think anyone's ever done anything like that. The only mention of it I've seen is Microsoft almost had IBM do it for XBox BC on the 360, but there wasn't time to rework the cache controller.

Since MS uses the same PPE as the Cell, if MS has that sort of BC then it should, in theory, be available for Sony (and vice versa).
 
But how many on average for total? Nobody I know has bought as PSP game for vita. They have like 3 games total for vita.


here is the total games sold per console for this gen in 2008.
http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Software_tie_ratio

assuming sony can make people buy 3 ps3 games per person per ps4 would mean they would average with only 1 ps4 game.

There's no way to know this, since NPD doesn't track digital downloads through PSN. edit: in addition, PSN itself doesn't make the distinction as to what platform a PSP game would be downloaded to- those can be downloaded to PS3, PSP, or Vita and Sony would have no clue.
 

Ashes

Banned
Would they need the PPE core, or could a package of 6 SPUs be enough? I know Apple didn't have much trouble switching from PPC to x86.

I don't remember much about that except for a kind of virtual PC thing they had going on for a couple years. Perhaps others could shed more light on this.
 
R

Rösti

Unconfirmed Member
VGLeaks ‏@VGLeaks
Soon you will be able to read our last article. Orbis or Durango? You'll have to wait until we publish it ;)

Hype!
Hmm. Unless they are planning on revealing a great amount of information or are aware of an imminent official showing of the both consoles, that seems a bit strange.
 

Arkham

The Amiga Brotherhood
frabz-Brace-yourselves-Monday-is-coming-078620.jpg


From VGLeaks

Guys, pay attention to the "orb" on the sword's hilt. I think they used that pic for a reason. Orbis news incoming. ;-)
 

PaulLFC

Member
Rösti;46967689 said:
Hmm. Unless they are planning on revealing a great amount of information or are aware of an imminent official showing of the both consoles, that seems a bit strange.

last article?

they don't have anymore leaks?
Yeah, thought the same when I realised it said last, I'd read it as latest at first. Hope it reveals a good deal of info if it really is their last article.
 
Man, I'm having flashbacks to 2006 here.


I honestly don't know if they'd need the PPE or not. It's a 3.2 GHz part, so a 1.6 - 2.0 GHz cpu is not going to emulate it in software, even at 2 instructions per clock. CPU microcode for just the PPE might be possible, but it's hard to say for sure since I don't think anyone's ever done anything like that. The only mention of it I've seen is Microsoft almost had IBM do it for XBox BC on the 360, but there wasn't time to rework the cache controller.

Since MS uses the same PPE as the Cell, if MS has that sort of BC then it should, in theory, be available for Sony (and vice versa).

Interesting. I assume MS will want BC for the same reason as Sony, so I'm guessing it's possible some how.
 

Ashes

Banned
But how many on average for total? Nobody I know has bought as PSP game for vita. They have like 3 games total for vita.


here is the total games sold per console for this gen in 2008.
http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Software_tie_ratio

assuming sony can make people buy 3 ps3 games per person per ps4 would mean they would average with only 1 ps4 game.

Digital libraries are different though. Something like Journey will sell and continue to sell to first time playstation owners. Otherwise you have them sitting there doing nothing unless you port them.

Psn is now a huge library, and every sale makes Sony money.
 
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