Lagspike_exe
Member
That's because Sony made a gaming console and could have lived with 4GB. MS wanted 3GB just for OS, which forced them to go the DDR3 route. It's ending up terribly for them.
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TRUTHFACT: MS having eSRAM yield problems on Xbox One
- Thread starter chubigans
- Start date
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That's because Sony made a gaming console and could have lived with 4GB. MS wanted 3GB just for OS, which forced them to go the DDR3 route. It's ending up terribly for them.
i mean if its correct this is all on ms.the decision was games to be secondary
i'm not an insider,my comment meant i trust those posters just to be clear
(too many bans for "fake insiders")
Chittagong
Gold Member
Maybe, but on the other hand these cakes can see you and hear you, although the stove has to be on while you eat them.
shinra-bansho
Member
Oh I know. I was agreeing with the "I'm going with leeroy" stance. His post should probably go in the OP as suggested above.i'm not an insider,my comment meant i trust those posters just to be clear
(too many bans for "fake insiders")
I am not sure I want cakes watching me as I prance naked around my living-room. Can I not have them check on me every 24 hours or something? The PastyS4 would never do something like this!
DaSorcerer7
Member
The real question is, is the creamy filling wizard's jizz or not?
JohnnySasaki86
Member
Yea but we don't know if Matt was confirming the DC claims or just the yield issues. The thread title only mentioned yield issues.
This is beginning to look more and more true as more and more information comes out. It just seems so crazy how one side seems to be getting it wrong in every fucking possible way and the other side seems to be getting it right in every possible way. I won't list it here, but it's crazy. What the fuck happened?
(BTW, all the people saying they're starting to agree this rumor is true are convincing me, I take hiatuses from here so I don't know the reliable names, but other long timers clearly do.)
Pristine_Condition
Member
Wow.
This is sounding more and more real.
Hey, I'm not arguing they're right. I have no idea. I have no crystal ball.
I'm just reading the rather obvious tealeaves and investor sentiment coming to that conclusion.
I'm a gamer first. I've been a gamer since I was a toddler and Pong was a coin-op. And I'm one of those gamers that still loves a new box, or a completely new graphics card...I still love to go "WOW!" when I see something that was technologically not possible before. Seeing Microsoft go down this road is not what I want, but I understand why they're doing it, and now that they are on this path, a downclock isn't going to affect their strategy one whit.
I don't think their yield of real-cream is enough to satisfy customers. I heard a rumor they were going to water it down a bit.
JohnnySasaki86
Member
3rd console curse? Sony must be destined at this point or have some angel on their side, cause its pretty unbelievable that they seem to be getting everything right AND every luck based thing go there way. They must be doin back flips of joy, knowing this issues MS is going through right now.
fatgamecat
Member
I was already not going to get an Xbox One due to the online DRM, but this news takes it to a new level of "do not want".
Lately, MS has been amazing at pissing off their existing customers while failing to attract new ones. Windows 8 is the first example, Xbox One might very well be the next.
Lately, MS has been amazing at pissing off their existing customers while failing to attract new ones. Windows 8 is the first example, Xbox One might very well be the next.
dragonelite
Member
Or they are deferring all the bad news
All i know is im going to re-up pc this year.
Haven't seen anything spectacular for next gen i haven't experienced on pc yet.
Still hyped for E3 to see what microsoft and sony have to say.
There will always be a bit of a xbox fanboy in me.
You really sound like a marketing expert hurr durr
Nikodemos
Member
They didn't actually do a lot of things. If anything, they've shown considerable conservatism over the PS4 strategy as a game console first, general entertainment/socialisation box second.
What Sony, in fact Cerny first (I suspect) got completely right was his near-fanatical unshakeable faith that GDDR5 density will go up while prices will level. It was the equivalent of rolling five sixes in liar's dice. This allowed the team to go for a simplified "M0ar fyarp0warz!!!" design, instead of pseudo-cache tricks with exotic RAM types. Sometimes, simpler is stronger.
Man I hope this thing doesn't get downgraded as it will limit the types of games that get made for everyone seeing as devs will always have to target the weakest console first :/ ps4 versions will never have extra gameplay features because of that extra power, it is just going to be relegated to increasing the visual fidelity.
michaelius
Banned
It's a direct result of this generation experiences
Sony got extremly badly burned by multimedia focus early and only lot of effort with first party and price drops reinvigorated sales to current levels so they got to conclusion that they need to sell gaming console and games first and everything else as added bonus.
Microsoft got huge sales increase from Kinect and casual shift later in generation.
Dirtyshubb
Member
If my photoshop skills were good (or i had any) i would supply an angel with Cerny's face on it, instead you will have to use your imagination (or some kind soul will do it for me).
Its been an amazing time leading up to the console reveals. To think, it started with all the rumours/word on the street as Microsoft having more powerful hardware, gonna be cheaper, come out earlier, better development tools yet literally everything seems to have done a 180 (cue the 360 moonwalker.gif).
Now while i agree that competition is needed, all i can say is Good! Microsoft need a good kicking if they are to learn from their mistakes, just like Sony seem to have done since the initial release of the PS3 to the reveal of the PS4.
flipswitch
Member
Last I've heard is wizard jizz will be their cooling solution.
Impeccable
Member
Oh sweet jesus this is insane.
amstradcpc
Member
I only hope MS downclocking its GPU doesn´t give Sony the tentation to get better yields doing the same.
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
Perhaps if they'd just stuck to a games machine, they wouldn't be having any of these problems.
Once the corporate lunatics took over the Xbox asylum, it was doomed.
I confidently predict the next hardware from MS won't even have the Xbox branding...Xbone will do too much damage, just as Nintendo are discovering with the WiiU name.
Once the corporate lunatics took over the Xbox asylum, it was doomed.
I confidently predict the next hardware from MS won't even have the Xbox branding...Xbone will do too much damage, just as Nintendo are discovering with the WiiU name.
I just wanted to thank you for your contribution to the thread with this personal attack, which seems to be standard practice for you. Just for your own reference, here is this post that you always seem to fail to look at :
StevieP said:
You're right, everything I say must be off Beyond3D, right? Even though much or most of that content wasn't on B3D during those dates. Was I wrong about memory? Yes and no. At the time where I had garnered information on the PS4, it DID have 2GB of GDDR5 and at its original release schedule, it was going to end up with either 2GB or 4GB. 8GB is Sony getting lucky. I admit to being wrong on that front, and what I say can be corroborated.
Next time, Heavy, instead of hurling personal insults dispute the content of my posts, not the posters themselves. Or go back to WrassleGaf.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
JohnnySasaki86
Member
EXACTLY, this is bad for everyone.
Unless you buyin to MS Azure Cloud hype.Do people think MS will stay in the console market if Xbone takes a drubbing? I thought internally a lot of people already have misgivings about the entertainment division given that its existed for over a decade and has failed to make MS any money. I wouldn't put it beyond MS to spin off/sell the entertainment division and double down on their core (Windows, Office, Cloud services) business if Xbone is a turkey. There'd definitely be pressure to do it from stock holders.
RamzaIsCool
The Amiga Brotherhood
Hasn't there been rumors of things being troublesome at MS for a while now? Let's see...
- Toolsets not being complete and devs bitching about it on twitter.
- No clear Indiedev vision.
- Disconnect with gamers regarding DRM and always online.
- Disconnect with gamers regarding primary function of the XBO.
- Underpowered console, because lack of forsight of RAM.
- Delay of reveal and then producing a shitty conference.
- Developement problems (6 months behind?)
- Kinect video show incomplete OS with slow performance.
And now this...
Might be that most of those thing aren't true, but imo there is just too much rambling going on. We don't hear anything like this about the Sony camp.
- Toolsets not being complete and devs bitching about it on twitter.
- No clear Indiedev vision.
- Disconnect with gamers regarding DRM and always online.
- Disconnect with gamers regarding primary function of the XBO.
- Underpowered console, because lack of forsight of RAM.
- Delay of reveal and then producing a shitty conference.
- Developement problems (6 months behind?)
- Kinect video show incomplete OS with slow performance.
And now this...
Might be that most of those thing aren't true, but imo there is just too much rambling going on. We don't hear anything like this about the Sony camp.
SneakyStephan
Banned
The cake analogy sucks.
Basically they create a large circular silicon wafer
On one of these wafers they can fit many chips which they then cut out (like baking a pizza and cutting it into identical slices)
There will however be defects on the wafer, the chips that occupy the areas that have the defects on them are either useless or can be used as lower end parts by disabling part of the chip
(like if a gpu has 18 compute units you could only use 16 if the defect is on one of the others, ps4 already does this by only using 18 out of 20 cus so they can have two for redundancy to improve yields)
Not all of them come out as well as the others and some can handle more voltage than others, so they can be higher clocked.
Now the problem is that when you have really large chips.
The larger the chip the bigger the chance that each chip will have a defect. (exponentially much so)
If you have 10 defects on your wafer but you fit 100 small dies on the wafer then only at most 10 , so ten percent, will be throwaway or salvaged as low end part, but if you only fit 10 on there then it's likely that many of them may have one of those defects.
You could easily have to throw away 30-50 percent or even all of them.
Xbox one uses APU which is a really big die that needs to house the cpu, gpu AND in xbox one's case also the ESRAM which takes up a huge amount of transistors and therefor physical space on the chip.
They end up with little hardware power yet a huge (5 billion transistor) die, so they have low yields.
Normally low end hardware only takes a tiny little die so yields are good, but for some reason that either MS engineers or suits/beancounters can only know they decided to go for this huge ass APU with esram.
From my limited knowledge Sony ended up with a lot more bang for their buck... they put their die space into a bit more gpu power and didn't design their apu around needing esram (since they didn't cheap out on the vram, which is a collection of seperate chips that are embedded on a PCB and connected to the APU through a memory bus)
Meanwhile MS seems to have thrown the baby out with the bathwater.
If you look at the old Yukon architecture diagrams that were leaked in that huge PDF a while back ... it was all DDR4. But then again it had mention of eDRAM rather than eSRAM as well ... this whole system seems like it needed more time in the "oven" so to speak when their ideas of DDR4 + eDRAM were dashed.
At what point does a business go "Move Engines + eSRAM + DDR3 cost more than GDDR5" delay it and get the "PR cycle working in our favour as well".
Where are the Cerny templates someone made?
Third console curse lol.
bigbaldwolf86
Banned
Sony must have a gold statue of Mark Cerny being made as we speak.
By concentrating primarily on the PS4 being a games console they look to have given themselves a considerable edge.
MS look to have almost crippled themselves in trying to do too many things at once.
E3 and the coming months will be interesting
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
Shun the non-believers!
Second job? I thought the xbone requires to move?
Pristine_Condition
Member
Next time, Heavy, instead of hurling personal insults dispute the content of my posts, not the posters themselves. Or go back to WrassleGaf.
Don't insult WrassleGAF, friend.
Indeed, tough i suppose it is fitting that the make up of the hardware mimic's the presentation of the console with conflicting reports, all-over-the-place design of the console, different people within the same company saying conflicting things etc.
Perhaps there are too many chefs in the kitchen over at Microsoft, internal battle going on.
After all i am sure MS employs tons of smart people, so its not them not having the ability to properly do this, seems more like just suits butting heads leading to this mess, both the reveal and now the hardware.
MikeE21286
Member
This is ending up to be a clusterfuck
JohnnySasaki86
Member
No they never had any faith in the GDDR5 densities would go up. PS4 was originally designed with 4gb. It wasn't a gamble by there part, they would of just gone with there original plan if it hadn't. They got lucky that the stars aligned for them at the right time, but it was already a smartly engineered console and it was a smart decision to go with 4gb gddr5 in the place, even without 8gb(most people agreed that 4gb gddr5 > 8gb of ddr3). They knew that if the densities did become available it would of been an easy change. They were smart and lucky.
This is what I don't get. Why did MS concoct a complex chip that seems to do nothing well? MS would've been better served by coming out with a Roku Xbox w/ Kinect functionality, and a separate game box.
mysteriousmage09
Member
EXACTLY, this is bad for everyone.
The big difference with PS4/Xbone over PS3/360 is that I don't really see one console being weaker then the other having much of an effect. With the 360 and PS3, it's common knowledge that Sony took the gold medal in creating the most confusing architecture to ever grace consoles and the only devs that were really able to harness the power were the 1st party devs that spent years exclusively designing for that console. Now, both consoles are good ol PC architecture and getting results, either adding/increasing or removing/decreasing graphical features, etc. should be easy as pie for every dev studio out there.
The only console that should be seriously affected by Xbone is the Xbone itself.
Unknown Soldier
Member
MS is pretty legendary in tech circles for their lack of management vision, warring fiefdoms, and internecine corporate backstabbing. The saga which led to the recent dismissal of former Windows chief Steven Sinofsky and the disastrous releases of Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 are just two recent events where MS basically stabbed their own backs and killed promising products. The astonishing story of Kin and how MS basically pissed away the $500 million they spent to acquire Danger is another tale from MS's internal corporate hellhole.
I keep seeing people with the "Only on Xbox" logo on their avatars defend the Xbox One and then get factually corrected in lots of different Xbox One threads... Please don't tell me we're going to see this go on all year. I hate having to associate everyone with "Only on Xbox" avatars as blind supporters.
In response to the topic: This sounds really shitty. MS seemed to have bet on the wrong boat early in development of the console. Hopefully multiplats don't become shitty because of it.
In response to the topic: This sounds really shitty. MS seemed to have bet on the wrong boat early in development of the console. Hopefully multiplats don't become shitty because of it.
The cake analogy sucks.
Basically they create a large circular silicon waferand put the conducting pathways for the (processor or memory) chip on it. (http://www.geek.com/chips/from-sand-to-hand-how-a-cpu-is-made-832492/ if you want to know how it works)
On one of these wafers they can fit many chips which they then cut out (like baking a pizza and cutting it into identical slices)
There will however be defects on the wafer, the chips that occupy the areas that have the defects on them are either useless or can be used as lower end parts by disabling part of the chip
(like if a gpu has 18 compute units you could only use 16 if the defect is on one of the others, ps4 already does this by only using 18 out of 20 cus so they can have two for redundancy to improve yields)
Not all of them come out as well as the others and some can handle more voltage than others, so they can be higher clocked.
Now the problem is that when you have really large chips.
The larger the chip the bigger the chance that each chip will have a defect. (exponentially much so)
If you have 10 defects on your wafer but you fit 100 small dies on the wafer then only at most 10 , so ten percent, will be throwaway or salvaged as low end part, but if you only fit 10 on there then it's likely that many of them may have one of those defects.
You could easily have to throw away 30-50 percent or even all of them.
Xbox one uses APU which is a really big die that needs to house the cpu, gpu AND in xbox one's case also the ESRAM which takes up a huge amount of transistors and therefor physical space on the chip.
They end up with little hardware power yet a huge (5 billion transistor) die, so they have low yields.
Normally low end hardware only takes a tiny little die so yields are good, but for some reason that either MS engineers or suits/beancounters can only know they decided to go for this huge ass APU with esram.
From my limited knowledge Sony ended up with a lot more bang for their buck... they put their die space into a bit more gpu power and didn't design their apu around needing esram (since they didn't cheap out on the vram, which is a collection of seperate chips that are embedded on a PCB and connected to the APU through a memory bus)
Meanwhile MS seems to have thrown the baby out with the bathwater.
Thanks. Helped cleared up a lot for me. Great explanation!
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