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[Toxi]

I bristle at the urge to censor/ban/change* more than I love the idea of the mode itself.

*I know they're just putting their criticism out there, and aren't the government. But they are implying "this shouldn't exist"... when I think it is just fine for it to exist, for the audience that wants it. I want all audiences to be served, including women and all subgroups thereof.

So Birth of a Nation is totally a fine movie because it's just appealing to a certain audience? It's perfectly fine to criticize a work of fiction on moral grounds.

I don't even think this is offensive (It's no more offensive than James Bond being a dame magnet), it's just ridiculous to see people go "NO SUDA 51 HAS ARTISTIC INTEGRITY IN THEIR SHITTY BOOB GAZE MINIGAME!"

 

[TheSpoiler]

I don't really think there's any need to 'explain' what's wrong with people who rant against feminists or try to paint any man who objects to sexism as a 'white knight'. I've had my fill with trying to argue with the anti-feminism brigade who are simply unwilling to accept that sexism exists or that any man could actually be angry about it and not just trying to win points.

Well my son, you are generalizing everyone who has a problem with wrongful labeling.

And thus, you have done the opposite of contributing. If you've had your feel, why not leave?

 

[LordJim]

Seems like I'm buying this game entirely because of the online debacle. The exact same reason I bought Lollipop Chainsaw. This game was barely even on my radar until now, gotta support creative freedom.

You are in luck, cause gameplay may actually be fun too

 

[NinjamicWZ]

So you don't actually aim to have any conversation, then? Troll away, good sir.

No, I don't wish to have a conversation on this subject with someone who incorrectly interprets my statements and wishes to have their own conversation at my expense. That's just an open door for semantics where I'd continuously reword the same statement multiple times until either understanding or forfeit is achieved. This process would ultimately dilute my actual stance with further misinterpretation on your part and potential miscommunication on mine. I presumed that mincing your words, as you did mine, would achieve one of those ends faster and it has.

 

[Ingueferroque]

Who is this guy to tell us to not respect Suda?

Fuck off.

 

[Astarte]

Yeah, there goes my purchase. It's not because I'm offended, it's because this isn't even funny, it's just stupid and weird. I liked No More Heroes because it was funny. Travis Touchdown is a creeper, but it works in No More Heroes because he's a loser, and it's funny to see the "hero" be one of those complete losers who ogles anime chick posters in his spare time.

Just being weird isn't enough. Suda 51 is good when there's genuine humor and the gameplay is acceptable (Which is one of the areas that they always seem to fuck up at).

I don't even see why people are defending this mode; it seems like just another pointlessly long minigame that is just dumb. I'm sure tilting the control stick and giving the object Simon Says style sounds really entertaining, right up there with mowing a lawn or picking up coconuts.

Well, it is a dumb minigame...that isn't required to get on with the plot. NMH's minigames were pretty mandatory, monotonous, and boring, making them unfun to play. It's an entirely skippable little side activity that you don't even need to do! Trying to make parallels between all of suda's "main games" is something you can do, rather than just ignoring this game off of one minigame.
In GTA I'd rather go around blowing things up and experience one hell of a plot than go in for an entirely optional hot coffee session.

Wow, that was REALLY fucked up, I hated Killer7 the first time I played it, I guess I should try it again.

Killer 7 is really a..love it or hate it game. Its plot is EXTREMELY interesting, but the gameplay turns many away.

 

[Row]

Wow, had no idea that whenever i looked secretly at a woman i found attractive and thought to myself that i'd like to sleep with her despite knowing nothing of her hobbies, interests or general personality that i was an abnormal and irredeemable sexist

 

[Gun Animal]

This is some bullshit, there's no way Kojima's David.

I had a hard time deciding between him and Tomonobu for that spot but ultimately felt that Tomonobu would probably be the keyboard player.

 

[TheSpoiler]

I don't understand how it could be seen as sexist just against females.

The idea that a guy (a killer, badass-assassin as it happens) is reduced to fawning, pathetically ogling whilst an 'ideal' woman isn't looking, isn't flattering to males.

The 'sexism' label is used too often.

In general, I find it difficult to view the mini-game as anything other than a silly parody of dating.

In No More Heroes 1, you end up working for a girl out of lust.

In No More Heroes 2, you end up working for a friend but also lust again.

I think Suda just loves to make fun of tropes and parody things. That's about the size of it.

 

[eorl]

Real talk, I don't give a shit where this industry should go or where its supposed to go. I buy and support products that I enjoy and make me use my brain. More variety would be great, better storytelling and narrative in general would be great.

But as of now I'm perfectly fine with what this industry is artistically. Many others probably don't feel the same, so whatever. Sometimes something isn't for everybody, country music makes me bored to the point of comatose.

And I can understand and appreciate that. I may not have used the correct words before, clearly, but what Suda51 is showcasing in this (optional) Gigolo mode is something that is just tasteless and really makes you wonder if its even needed.

Yeah sure its fun and games, but this kind of representation isn't needed. Yes what artists make is not directly a correlation to what they think, but it just raises the question of why exactly they needed to put this in? What purpose does it serve but to offer some shock value and somewhat devalue what people will think of you?

All in all, people will love it and people will hate it. I'm fine with that, but it is definitely not done in the most tactful way.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Well my son, you are generalizing everyone who has a problem with wrongful labeling.

And thus, you have done the opposite of contributing. If you've had your feel, why not leave?

Because this issue isn't going to go away by people ignoring it. Which is the entire point of the video Lees made in the first place. People need to actually address the sexism which exists.

 

[Liseda]

The mode sounds a bit creepy but holy shit I could barely stand this guy in the video, was just waiting for him to get to the fucking point but he kept rambling. I guess I'll have my own opinion after playing it, the "real mode" of the game seems quite decent.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

As long as the mode's optional.

 

[dubq]

So Birth of a Nation is totally a fine movie because it's just appealing to a certain audience? It's perfectly fine to criticize a work of fiction on moral grounds.

I don't even think this is offensive (It's no more offensive than James Bond being a dame magnet), it's just ridiculous to see people go "NO SUDA 51 HAS ARTISTIC INTEGRITY IN THEIR SHITTY BOOB GAZE MINIGAME!"

Except that Lees is taking direct shots at Suda, saying that he needs to turn in his "badge" and stop making games. That's not really criticizing the work.

 

[TheSpoiler]

And I can understand and appreciate that. I may not have used the correct words before, clearly, but what Suda51 is showcasing in this (optional) Gigolo mode is something that is just tasteless and really makes you wonder if its even needed.

Yeah sure its fun and games, but this kind of representation isn't needed. Yes what artists make is not directly a correlation to what they think, but it just raises the question of why exactly they needed to put this in? What purpose does it serve but to offer some shock value and somewhat devalue what people will think of you?

All in all, people will love it and people will hate it. I'm fine with that, but it is definitely not done in the most tactful way.

So every artist that has made something that involves a woman getting hurt is fucked up?

Yeah seems legit.

 

[SousedLouse]

I don't really think there's any need to 'explain' what's wrong with people who rant against feminists or try to paint any man who objects to sexism as a 'white knight'. I've had my fill with trying to argue with the anti-feminism brigade who are simply unwilling to accept that sexism exists or that any man could actually be angry about it and not just trying to win points.

Exactly - the best way to deal with shitposts is to jump right into the muck and fling shit in every direction. After all, as long as your posts aren't exactly as toxic as the other person's, you're still fighting the good fight - all that means is that you don't suffer fools lightly! And when your barometer for good taste is "don't be a raging misogynistic jerk", anything goes! Well put, brave soldier.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

But didn't you just say in your last post that it doesn't make much sense to assume that stuff done in video games will lead to mimicking behavior in real life?



Am I misunderstanding what you meant? Are you actually saying that people are only dissuaded from murder because its against the law, but everything else they do in video games can potentially affect their behavior in real life (as long as it's legal)?

I don't know if you're purposefully cherrypicking that line, or you just didn't see my other statement. But I went on to clarify and expand on that statement by saying it's not just the law, but the law and subsequent ubiquitous assumption around the world that "murder is bad". This sentiment clearly does not exist for a thing like the objectification of women, so the intent of this content to many people around the world becomes extremely ambiguous.

Some Suda fans will see this as Suda51 being Suda51 and it's just playful humor, while many other people will see this as an actual "ok" thing, because they don't know otherwise. Once again, the hypothetical scenario doesn't make sense.

 

[Christhor]

You are in luck, cause gameplay may actually be fun too

Excellent. The games that Suda51 has personally directed have yet to dissapoint, no reason to think they'll start now.

 

[Astarte]

between this and you thinking people pick each other up at bars like in Gigolo Mode, i have a feeling you're not living in the same world as the rest of us

You do know that I wasn't being serious about the "in real life you slap on x ray glasses, look at a woman and fuck her", right? Women and men both go to bars to interact with the other sex (or the same sex, however you swing). Women can be as shallow as men, etc.

Also, I'm not living in the same world. I've fucked off to space like suda and his game.

 

[Toxi]

Well, it is a dumb minigame...that isn't required to get on with the plot. NMH's minigames were pretty mandatory, monotonous, and boring, making them unfun to play. It's an entirely skippable little side activity that you don't even need to do! Trying to make parallels between all of suda's "main games" is something you can do, rather than just ignoring this game off of one minigame.
In GTA I'd rather go around blowing things up and experience one hell of a plot than go in for an entirely optional hot coffee session.

Here's the thing though; when this is one of the few things we know about the game, it doesn't give me a good impression of Suda 51's humor for this game. Since the tone is really the only reason to buy a Suda 51 game (The gameplay tends to suck), that isn't a good sign.

Except that Lees is taking direct shots at Suda, saying that he needs to turn in his "badge" and stop making games. That's not really criticizing the work.

Uh, yeah that's criticizing the work. It's no different from the hyperbolic comments here yelling about how Toriyama needs to be fired for his shitty Final Fantasy games.

 

[dimb]

As long as the mode's optional.

Frightened at the thought of PG-13 sex scenes?

 

[Hamlet Machine]

Because women are not sexualized to begin with, they are walking trees..

 

[Tomat]

Except that Lees is taking direct shots at Suda, saying that he needs to turn in his "badge" and stop making games. That's not really criticizing the work.

That is the best part about this whole thing. Better stop making games, Matt Lee doesn't like your shit. Oh no.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Exactly - the best way to deal with shitposts is to jump right into the muck and fling shit in every direction. After all, as long as your posts aren't exactly as toxic as the other person's, you're still fighting the good fight - all that means is that you don't suffer fools lightly! And when your barometer for good taste is "don't be a raging misogynistic jerk", anything goes! Well put, brave soldier.

My original post was poorly thought out; I was just angry about how much misogyny I had seen in the thread and couldn't really contain myself.

 

[Scrabble]

This doesn't seem sexist or offensive, just really creepy. Have any women said anything about this? 13 pages of dudes arguing back and forth doesn't really shed any light on this topic.

 

[MormaPope]

Here's the thing though; when this is one of the few things we know about the game, it doesn't give me a good impression of Suda 51's humor for this game. Since the tone is really the only reason to buy a Suda 51 game (The gameplay tends to suck), that isn't a good sign.

I'm one abnormal dude then, because of I loved how Killer 7 played, along with Shadows of the Damned.

 

[TheSpoiler]

Because this issue isn't going to go away by people ignoring it. Which is the entire point of the video Lees made in the first place. People need to actually address the sexism which exists.

The funny thing? I'm actually all for hitting those problems out of the park. In fact, had you read my previous post, you'd find that I'm looking out for the real problems.

I don't mind addressing sexism. I don't think anyone hates doing that. But if we do it aimlessly, what's accomplished? A witch hunt and burning developers at the stake?

I honestly think the more destructive behavior of labeling anything that remotely seems like a female in a video game getting dehumanized is worse than the sexist people, on both sides mind you, that shit on decent conversation.

My original post was poorly thought out; I was just angry about how much misogyny I had seen in the thread and couldn't really contain myself.

Yeah! Nothing like sinking to their level!

 

[antitrop]

How so? They clearly thought this would be fine, that's why they made it. It represents what Suda51 thinks of women and sexualises them in a way that they are only good for the objective of getting sex. If this is the game industry "growing up" then it is quite a sad approach.

I'm saying it's a logical fallacy.

Why can't you accept that Suda 51 is making a game about a pervert, and that there is a minigame that shows his perversions without necessarily making a moral commentary about them? It's just a pervy guy picking up a girl in a bar and consensually having sex with her afterwards.

Why does the fact that it is in the game have to mean that the game is trying to tell you it's "right"? It's not right or wrong. It just is.

Right or wrong is your subjective opinion, I just disagree with your assertion that the game is holding this act of "ogling women until they agree to fuck you" up as an example of a proper way to act. It's not.

Why aren't games allowed to show bad things?

 

[Dark Ninja]

Day 1

 

[DICKS AHOY]

I'd have to see the mode in its entirety to make a valid judgement of it, though going off Matt's other videos I'm pretty sure there's a certain amount of intentional hyperbole being mixed in with his analysis. No More Heroes pervy-ness was never a problem for me and was mostly there to help personify Travis Touchdown as a otaku loser and fit in with the rest of the game's wacky, over the top nature, Shadows of the Damned's pervy-ness was super fucking awkward and (was part of) what made me feel really mixed about the game compared to other Suda 51 games. Never got a chance to play Killer 7 to its entirety so I can't comment on that as much.

 

[Kikujiro]

People shouldn't waste their time discussing about sexism in this game because it would be like discussing about sexism in Hostel, it's a dumbass exploitative stupid game, there's no discussion to make, Net Wrecker explained it perfectly.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Frightened at the thought of PG-13 sex scenes?

The fuck's your problem?

 

[Nags]

This thread needs some:

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkBrdJUH8xU

EDIT: oh and this one too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juRhRiFqVo4

 

[Kurod]

Because women are not sexualized to begin with, they are walking trees..

They give us wood.

 

[solarus]

So every artist that has made something that involves a woman getting hurt is fucked up?

Yeah seems legit.

If the minigame went further and had the character straight up rape the woman would all of you just defend it because "you idiots suda does not support rape, it's artistic integrity it's fine for this to be in the game" as if he just HAS to put this type of bullshit in his videogame. Even if he isn't sexist, he makes it really hard to think anything otherwise and if he is trying to make some clever critique or parody then he is really falling flat on his face. This adds nothing to the game whatsoever except some shock value and almost assuredly controversy.

 

[Gbraga]

Killer 7 is really a..love it or hate it game. Its plot is EXTREMELY interesting, but the gameplay turns many away.

Seriously, I honestly HATED it, but that scene actually managed to shock me with violence in a game, which is pretty much bread and butter for gamers, that's quite something, I'm already interested in the world and characters, I want to experience that plot. I guess I'll have to buy it if I can get it for cheap. Already sold my PS2 copy years ago after hating its guts.

 

[Astarte]

Here's the thing though; when this is one of the few things we know about the game, it doesn't give me a good impression of Suda 51's humor for this game. Since the tone is really the only reason to buy a Suda 51 game (The gameplay tends to suck), that isn't a good sign.

Uh, yeah that's criticizing the work. It's no different from the hyperbolic comments here yelling about how Toriyama needs to be fired for his shitty Final Fantasy games.

But this isn't one of the few things we know about this game. We know characters, motivations, the settings, the bosses...everything save for the actual plot (which seems to have been spoiled quite a bit in PVs). The tone set is one of an out of this world story, with an assassin named Mondo Zappa who may or not be a parallel universe Sumio Mondo. Really, the tone setter is the fact that Mondo goes to the moon to battle a moon king or he goes off and fights a vampire lord, rather than the fact that he's going out for women. The humor is there, in all of its glory. This game is not meant to be taken seriously.

 

[AppleMIX]

Who is this guy to tell us to not respect Suda?

Fuck off.

So being well liked somehow make you immune to criticism?

For someone who was their for Killer 7 day 1, I really find Suda's new direction to be bad.

 

[dubq]

Uh, yeah that's criticizing the work. It's no different from the hyperbolic comments here yelling about how Toriyama needs to be fired for his shitty Final Fantasy games.

No. Saying that he's not needed as a producer of videogames anymore is not criticizing the one mini-game that is a part of a much larger game. That's taking an unnecessary shot at Suda for a piece of the game that Lees doesn't like. I have no problem with Lees opinion on the GAME, he's certainly entitled to it. But to tell someone that they need to stop making games because of this is a little over the fucking top. It's typical self-important "game journalism" at it's finest.

 

[Kinyou]

Well this is just weird

 

[Josh7289]

Stupid game.

 

[Gun Animal]

I'm one abnormal dude then, because of I loved how Killer 7 played, along with Shadows of the Damned.

All of Suda's games play great, even Samurai Champloo: Sidetracked is fun for what it is. You just have to go into it with a totally open mind.

 

[TheSpoiler]

If the minigame went further and had the character straight up rape the woman would all of you just defend it because "you idiots suda does not support rape, it's artistic integrity it's fine for this to be in the game" as if he just HAS to put this type of bullshit in his videogame. Even if he isn't sexist, he makes it really hard to think anything otherwise and if he is trying to make some clever critique or parody then he is really falling flat on his face. This adds nothing to the game whatsoever except some shock value and almost assuredly controversy.

Hyberpole alarm just went off!

1. The minigame doesn't have rape. Some mediums have rape, and some of those works are regarded as masterful. I personally don't like that and that's where I draw the line on most things, but it's his work and he can do what he wants.

2. You make a lot of assumptions, including putting words in my and other people's mouths. Good job!

3. If he isn't sexist, then this is a matter of opinion, in which case, that's even better! You can have your opinion instead of speaking for everyone!

 

[Tnetennba]

You want to argue woman's roles and how they're treated in games, go look at games trying to be even slightly serious but still objectify the female characters or dress them up in nonsensically sexual clothing. I'd love to see female characters treated with the same "respect" that male ones are, but Killer Is Dead is not the kind of game I'm going to take up arms against.

I agree that it's totally ineffective to pick apart these weird, niche titles and expect it to create a wider change in the industry when there are much bigger offenders out there to be dissected. Again though, I don't think that excludes it from this sort of discussion. I'm not going to stand here and call for a boycott, I'm likely going to buy it after all, but when you present this sort of mode to an audience that is becoming increasingly aware of the poor presentation and representation of female characters in this medium then I think that's a discussion worth having, even if it isn't going to create even a ripple in the bigger picture.

 

[Marjar]

Honestly I don't really find the idea of the minigame offensive (didn't Asura's Wrath have a similar thing where you're wooing girls in a hot bath?), I just think it's a dumb idea to put in a video game. Like what's the point?

Suda needs to go back to making Killer7-esque games.

 

[Uthred]

Was only a matter of time, suprised it took so long for someone to lose their shit over it as details of it have been known for months. I suppose when you spend all your time slaying dragons/tilting at windmills that some stuff takes time to get around to.

 

[solarus]

Hyberpole alarm just went off!

1. The minigame doesn't have rape. Some mediums have rape, and some of those works are regarded as masterful. I personally don't like that and that's where I draw the line on most things, but it's his work and he can do what he wants.

2. You make a lot of assumptions, including putting words in my and other people's mouths. Good job!

3. If he isn't sexist, then this is a matter of opinion, in which case, that's even better! You can have your opinion instead of speaking for everyone!

Sigh, read my post. It "was a what if" scenario if the minigame went further and did have rape, I presume you would still defend this bullshit so good for you I guess.

 

[TheSpoiler]

Was only a matter of time, suprised it took so long for someone to lose their shit over it as details of it have been known for months. I suppose when you spend all your time slaying dragons/tilting at windmills that some stuff takes time to get around to.

You've got to make the rounds. First Dragon's Crown, now this, next maybe the Xbone system? I dunno where it ends.

 

[kittens]

Is anyone here familiar with the idea of "the male gaze"? I'm trying to find a decent, easy to understand explanation of it, but I'm not coming up with much. I think it would help put this conversation in context.

 

[Astarte]

Seriously, I honestly HATED it, but that scene actually managed to shock me with violence in a game, which is pretty much bread and butter for gamers, that's quite something, I'm already interested in the world and characters, I want to experience that plot. I guess I'll have to buy it if I can get it for cheap. Already sold my PS2 copy years ago after hating its guts.

It's really polarizing, I don't blame you for it. What brings the magic of Killer7 forward is its plot and character interactions, not its gameplay. The gameplay I do have to say is really monotonous and annoying, and I didn't have a great time with the rail shooter segments. I'm glad to see a justification for the gameplay in a plot related way though. I'd say, go try it out. It's a once in a gaming lifetime experience, and it's a hell of a ride.