But Garcian IS the lead. Everything revolved around him.
I felt he lead the story, maybe I should go and replay it. So we can count that as 1 now I want a second one
But Garcian IS the lead. Everything revolved around him.
See my other post at http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=73337961&postcount=1639 for more detail.
It's not that I don't want these games to be made, it's that I want these games to be made less often. The vast majority of games treat women as sex objects to a varying degree and most of the games that don't sexualize women don't because they flat out don't have any women in them.
I felt he lead the story, maybe I should go and replay it. So we can count that as 1 now I want a second one
ITT: White guys discuss women's issues because who else knows better than them
Also: some Suda51 cocksucking.
ITT: White guys discuss women's issues because who else knows better than them
Also: some Suda51 cocksucking.
ITT: White guys discuss women's issues because who else knows better than them
Also: some Suda51 cocksucking.
What does race have to do with any of this?
See my other post at http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=73337961&postcount=1639 for more detail.
It's not that I don't want these games to be made, it's that I want these games to be made less often. The vast majority of games treat women as sex objects to a varying degree and most of the games that don't sexualize women don't because they flat out don't have any women in them.
White men are inferior at discussing topics. It's a fact. Accept it white man.
How do you know you are quoting a white man, you failure of a japanese videogame console.
The same way you knew I was a failed Japanese home console.
I know, that was rethorical question. Do you think I'm stupid because I'm a white female pop singer with a stupid hat?
ITT: White guys discuss women's issues because who else knows better than them
Also: some Suda51 cocksucking.
This is what I think too, actually.
And Matt, if you read this and I'm completely off the mark, I apologize, but...
He said that Videogamer has a "preview copy" of the game, which contains a couple of missions and one Gigolo Mode scenario. But he also said that he hasn't played any of the game outside of Gigolo Mode. Why, exactly, would you play the weird minigame side-mode before playing the actual game? And furthermore, if Deep Silver UK is sending out preview copies, why haven't Eurogamer, OPM UK, or OXM UK done hands-on previews outside of E3 previews (and a quick Google search seems to suggest that they haven't even done that much)? It all just seems so strange to me.
I really like Matt Lees, but I guess I don't get his point. Why can't an auteur make a weird, creepy, pervy game and still be an auteur? Why does the one preclude the other?
I feel like I don't really understand where he's coming from with this, and more long-winded explanations won't make it anymore clear. Must just have to chalk it up to a difference in perspective, because from where I'm sitting, some of my favorite auteurs in other mediums have had plenty of creepy, silly, exploitative moments while still being auteurs. Just because it's videogames means that the creator can't allow himself to have some fun?
What a shocker, a games journalist/commentator has his innacuracies pointed out and instead of responding he simply turtles up.
Sneaking peaks at the women's breasts/crotch/etc, giving them gifts to try to convince them to have sex, and the hilariously awful pornographic sound effects going through the whole. It's entirely possible in this case it'll turn out to be a brilliant satire of the all the terrible porny shit in games, or it could turn out to just be gross porny shit. We wont know until the game's out.
As to why it's potentially problematic, well, treating women as "goals" to be achieved without any agency of their own is problematic especially since it's so incredibly widespread in games. Also, as ridiculous as it sounds there are actually a lot of men who, to varying degrees, actually think giving a woman attention or gifts entitles them to sex and get anywhere from sulky to outright violent when their advances are rebuffed. Obviously a game isn't going to turn anyone into a predator but this kind of thing (as well as TV and movies, of course) does help to normalize this kind of behavior and is part of the reason sexual assault isn't taken as seriously as it should be in pretty much every single culture in the world.
The other issue I have is that I am sick to death of the fact that the majority of games that feature any female characters feel the need to include porny shit whether its absurd proportions, sexualized costumes, naughty camera angles, or actual porny writing or mechanics. I'm fine with porn, I really am. Sometimes I even enjoy it. I'm even fine with there being porny games but it would be really nice if I could play games with female representation that DON'T have a bunch of porny stuff more than once in a blue moon. This isn't really a problem specifically with Killer Is Deadas a standalone game, but it's a problem with Killer Is Dead in the greater context of video games.
If the world wasn't full of creeps and I could actually think of the last game I played with decent female representation that wasn't sexualized then I wouldn't have any problem with Gigolo mode, but that's unfortunately not the world we live in and it's not the world games like Killer Is Dead exist in.
and that's why I'm done with this discussion, really.
ITT: White guys discuss women's issues because who else knows better than them
I don't mean to fan the flames, but I'm legitimately curious here: How would you react to Gigolo Mode if KID included an equivalent Gigolo Mode in which you took control of Vivienne and tried to seduce men by giving them gifts and staring at them when they weren't looking? Would the equalization of the "smut" make you more inclined to accept it as a stupid, fun, harmless minigame, or would this just be adding smut to smut and making the problem worse?
What about if a sequel to KID were created in which you played as Vivienne, complete with Vivienne-exclusive Gigolo Mode, thus balancing the first game by providing an exact female equivalent in its sequel? Would that make the first KID more acceptable, since it would now have a perfect counterpart?
The reason I ask this is because, to me, this is the ideal solution. I've always been of the opinion (and I speak solely for myself here, mind you, and do not represent XSEED's views on this matter in any way!) that there is nothing whatsoever wrong with gratuitous sexual content in media, but that in a perfect world, there would be just as much gratuitous sexual content for women (and homosexual men) as there is for men (and homosexual women). The solution to the "smut" issue is never to remove content (because there are a lot of people who enjoy that content, and they have just as much right to enjoy their "unsophisticated material" as anyone else!), but rather to expand upon it and ensure that all parties have appropriately "unsophisticated material" made available to them.
As I said earlier in this topic, equality in gaming doesn't come from eliminating distasteful games, but from equalizing them. Let the people who want their distasteful games play and enjoy them -- and give the rest of the audience what they want, too! I'm all for seeing more games with strong female protagonists and objectified males, personally... but I don't want games with strong male protagonists and objectified females taken away in order to get them. There's room enough in the gaming landscape for both, as well as for more artistic titles that objectify no one, and even for titles that objectify absolutely everyone.
...So, yeah... I'm legitimately curious on this one. Would adding a Gigolo Mode for the main female character, or creating a sequel in which women took charge and men were relegated to side-character status, make this a non-issue to you, or just compound the problem? Is your objection specifically to the "low-brow" nature of Gigolo Mode, or do you object solely because it's so one-sided?
To be clear, I mean absolutely no offense on this -- I am, again, legitimately curious. I know my views on this matter are a bit extreme, but I seriously long for a gaming landscape in which sex is commonplace and both genders are objectified equally, providing a little something for everyone. Yet I have this sinking feeling that this is not quite the solution most feminist gamers are looking for.
-Tom
Not a big issue but I just want to mention that its entirely possible to have sexual content that isn't necessarily objectifying as well. There are plenty of movies, books, manga, etc. that depict sex and sexuality without reducing one or both parties to objects.
This can also apply to visual design as well. The Elf in Dragons Crown is designed to be attractive, even sexy but shes not particularly objectified compared to the sorceress who is reduced down to tits and ass.
Stating your opinion is more than fine, it's great. The more people who voice their unease the better. Just seems like some of your language or turns of phrase (fuck off into space is a big one) hasn't translated clearly for us as much as the rest of the things you have said here. That strong use of terminology came across that you want to see Suda run out of the industry and games of this nature made illegal, which doesn't seem the case the more you have discussed it here in the thread.I also maintain that this change in detail doesn't change the way I feel about the mode.
For a game that has so many other cool ideas I just find it a bit pathetic, and in my opinion Suda 51's 'art' can - as I've said - fuck off into space.
Here's the thing, though: Art is subjective. Which means I'm not saying it ISN'T art, I'm just saying that I think it's shite.
What message was that though? I don't recall seeing any really nasty opinions pop up aside from the usual sarcastic ones.I'd still maintain that the most important thing to take away from this is the reaction: The anti-feminism 4chan crew who used a video that wasn't really even about gender to further spin out their strange agenda are a severely toxic and nasty bunch, and I'm surprised and sad to see that the main aim here was to share diluted versions of their message, rather that distance yourselves from that position.
Thanks for the open discussion and just as importantly sorry for the over the top vitriol directed at you on Twitter et al. I don't agree with you, I didn't like the misleading direction of the video and I won't visit the site again but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be treated respectfully (same with Suda/Grasshopper/etc)/And yeah, a final sincere apology to the way I've behaved in reaction to some people
I'd still maintain that the most important thing to take away from this is the reaction: The anti-feminism 4chan crew who used a video that wasn't really even about gender to further spin out their strange agenda are a severely toxic and nasty bunch, and I'm surprised and sad to see that the main aim here was to share diluted versions of their message, rather that distance yourselves from that position. Again, if this stance makes me your enemy, I will wear that badge with pride.
Oh, of course! I'm just saying that there's nothing wrong with objectifying people in media from time to time. Helps keep things interesting. But I'd love to see more healthy sexual depictions in games as well. This is actually one place where a lot of Japanese visual novels excel -- everyone always assumes they're nothing but smut, but the ones that Japanese gamers tend to gravitate toward most often are the ones that depict complex and interesting sexual relationships between highly developed characters. The "ef" series, for example, does an outstanding job of making sex a major part of its story without ever once using it for the sake of titillation.
This is actually what I wanted to reply to, though: Dragon's Crown is another game that's come up a lot in these sorts of discussions, yet I kind of see that game as the perfect example of "objectifying everyone." By which I mean... well, observe:
http://www.rpgfan.com/pics/Dragons_Crown/art-007.jpg
That's just as over-the-top objectified as the sorceress. Like, the proportions are EXACTLY as idealized and "perfect" as they are on the sorceress, and the end result is a highly exaggerated version of the classic image of male beauty -- so exaggerated that he's really not all that attractive anymore. But then, neither is the sorceress! The sorceress is SO exaggerated that she's crossed over the attractive line, and is basically just... an oddity now.
Some have stated that the depiction of male characters in Dragon's Crown is more "male power fantasy" than attractive idealism, but I disagree -- I don't think there's any man alive who would actually WANT to look like that. I mean, that just looks... uncomfortable! As I'm sure the sorceress must look to women.
As such, Dragon's Crown -- to me -- is an excellent example of a game that depicts men and women with an equal eye for objectification. Everyone is over-the-top -- so perfect as to be imperfect. It's an interesting and unique style, and I give Vanillaware a lot of credit for it.
...Though I still like the original Dreamcast character designs better.
-Tom
Both characters in dragons crown are taken to ridiculous degrees I don't agree that they're both objectified.
The sorceress takes a male sexual fantasy of a woman and exaggerates it to a ridiculous degree while the dwarf takes a male power fantasy (NOT a female sexual fantasy of a guy) and exaggerates it to a ridiculous degree.
What would a female power fantasy look like in Dragon's Crown---would it look like this? What would a female sexual fantasy look like in Dragon's Crown? Going by the type of men featured in manga and anime directed towards women, I'm guessing it might look something like... Oh, this. Wow, Dragon's Crown sure does have a lot of playable characters.
edit: actually, let's talk about this for a second. What does a female power fantasy look like?
What would a female power fantasy look like in Dragon's Crown---would it look like this? What would a female sexual fantasy look like in Dragon's Crown? Going by the type of men featured in manga and anime directed towards women, I'm guessing it might look something like... Oh, this. Wow, Dragon's Crown sure does have a lot of playable characters.
edit: actually, let's talk about this for a second. What does a female power fantasy look like?
So Matty, you didn't actually play Killer is Dead but instead watched a brief play-through by another person and felt this was sufficient for harsh critique of not only the game itself but also a public thrashing of it's director and fans?
My issue has always focused on context and tone, and the arguments I've seen made haven't been able to make an impact on that.
Rule of thumb is that everything in videogames appeals to men first and foremost.
Your avatar is probably closer to a female sexual fantasy than any of the characters in Dragon's Crown.
That's funny, because the females I speak to all prefer this dude...
Akihiko is definitely my favorite but no one with a picture of him in his underwear showing their ass to the camera has posted yet.
Different groups of people wanting different things at different points in time.And what it all comes down to is that the press wants games to be Politically Correct Products of Interactive Entertainment. How many years did we long for games to become acceptable as works of art and visions of their auteurs? Why are we now fighting for focus-tested games that would suit everyone?
Different groups of people wanting different things at different points in time.
Why is it that the games that look like they could be the best ones of this year are attacked by the press for being sexist?
And what it all comes down to is that the press wants games to be Politically Correct Products of Interactive Entertainment. How many years did we long for games to become acceptable as works of art and visions of their auteurs? Why are we now fighting for focus-tested games that would suit everyone?
I'm just talking about the most visible trends. What an outsider would see peeking in. You can't deny that these trends are what the gaming press has been all over.
Why is it that the games that look like they could be the best ones of this year are attacked by the press for being sexist?
What would a female power fantasy look like in Dragon's Crown---would it look like this? What would a female sexual fantasy look like in Dragon's Crown? Going by the type of men featured in manga and anime directed towards women, I'm guessing it might look something like... Oh, this. Wow, Dragon's Crown sure does have a lot of playable characters.
edit: actually, let's talk about this for a second. What does a female power fantasy look like?
Yep. I have it on good authority that women fantasize about lolling about in thong underwear and hitting things with their asses.
Why is it that the games that look like they could be the best ones of this year are attacked by the press for being sexist?
Tomb Raider, Dragon's Crown, Killer is Dead... I'm sure there's more.
Someone here posed the question how people would feel if KiD had a similar mode where you ogle at men as a female protagonist. Sure, fine, let's have it. I just doubt Grasshopper wants to have it. It's their vision after all. I'd just hope that the female hero story arc is just as good as the male one. But then you end up offending the gay community for not suiting their interests.
And what it all comes down to is that the press wants games to be Politically Correct Products of Interactive Entertainment. How many years did we long for games to become acceptable as works of art and visions of their auteurs? Why are we now fighting for focus-tested games that would suit everyone?