Jawmuncher
Member
I'll still be grabbing it but I bought Hatsune Miku so it isn't day 1 now.
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Killer is Dead Reviews Thread
- Thread starter LiK
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JustAnotherOtaku
Member
Played through everything the game threw at me, maybe ten minutes tops spent on Gigolo mode.
So this is also just a mockup of stripper-dances?
Come on. Both use it in a sarcastic way and everyone who played a Suda51 Game would know that.
I dont care about both issues, but thats hypocrisy.
that's issue i have both are in a fun mocking way but only one is bad
Moral Panic
Member
Definitely. Watch how little they're going to care about this in GTA V.
But they're perfectly happy slamming niche Japanese games.
Objectifying? Yeah, probably. Nothing wrong with that though.
Misogynistic though? Get the fuck out with that shit. I'm so tired of people that don't know what the word means.
Is that the main character? Theres a huge difference between there existing a character who says/does racist/sexist/homophobic things and it being the main character. Its a LOT harder to use the context to remove the sense that the game is applauding the behaviour when it is done by the one thing the player has a sense of agency over. The player controls and becomes the character and if the character engages in unethical behaviour it sends the message that such behaviour is acceptable.
The word misogyny has lost a lot of it's meaning and power nowadays (which is a shame), but under the current definitions it definitely applies.
SousedLouse
Member
Hey, don't go around shaming journos like that. It's not hypocritical to enrich yourself with a new perspective on social matters. They should be celebrated for becoming aware of the more unsavory aspects of the media we immerse ourselves in. Trying to undermine their personal thoughts on these matters with a few inconsistencies, as if you're trying to catch them in some sort of GOTCHA moment, is pathetic.
They also shouldn't be shamed or be called hypocrites when they inevitably opt to withhold anything ever approaching this sort of criticism against games like DmC, the next GTA, or any other lavish production with a whole lot of profit on the line for everyone involved because _____________ (excuse to be determined on 9/17/2013)
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Lees and Gies putting Suda in the Reverse Famitsu
Muffdraul
Member
I loved Killer 7, I really did... yet I never actually finished it, because of exactly what you said- annoying game play. Paradox. I never finished NMH, either. I finished Lollipop Chainsaw, but that game was a fart in the wind.
I thought I had Killer Is Dead pre-ordered, but I was wrong. Kinda relieved, but I still want to try it. Bad reviews usually don't deter me. However I don't think I need another Suda game at this point.
This was inevitably going to turn into a thread about perceived sexism, but I'm not sure review scores would be much better based on the reviewers' statements if those elements were not in Killer Is Dead.
After playing Lollipop Chainsaw and Shadows of the Damned (regardless of Suda's involvement in any of the titles), I had a feeling that I wouldn't be into this game. I'll rent it eventually.
After playing Lollipop Chainsaw and Shadows of the Damned (regardless of Suda's involvement in any of the titles), I had a feeling that I wouldn't be into this game. I'll rent it eventually.
IdreamofHIME
Member
Even without the sexist pov, the game always looked janky as heck to me....
...but people gotta ignore Gies. The guy feeds of you guys talking about him and you do it everytime.
...but people gotta ignore Gies. The guy feeds of you guys talking about him and you do it everytime.
That just isn't the case though. Wouldn't we be more worried about the fact that the main character is an assassin that constantly murders people? The game sends just as much of a message that this is acceptable too.
It's fiction.
Japanese published, just sayin'. But you're right, Hitman did too.
Ravensmash
Member
That's true I guess - perhaps it comes across as more 'seedy' in games such as this though, I can't say because I typically play western orientated titles.
That being said, Killer is Dead is not getting low scores because it has sexual content in but because it's a disappointing product all round.
Edit: A quick quote from the Gamespot review:
"It's difficult to feel anything but seedy after these missions, and they sit uncomfortably alongside the otherwise dark, noir tone of the game."
Is that the difference between a GTA and Killer is Dead? The context of such content amidst the whole product? If these things feel out of place and awkward in comparison to the rest of the game, then is it not a fair criticism?
Killer 7 actually has a plot related reason as to why you're stuck on rails and why you have to constantly spam the vision filter to see Heaven Smiles. Doesn't really make it less monotonous, but it helps.
RedNumberFive
Banned
Screw it. I'm going to go pick this up at lunch. The extra stuff was for a first run copies, not just preorders correct?
It wasn't the game's sexual content or lack thereof they found objectionable in the media but rather what the PR/devs said that made it worst. Like "protecting" her etc. The death animations were primarily what reviewers found unnecessary, iirc.
SousedLouse
Member
Originally, the game itself was being lambasted. More people were invested in quoting variations on 'you'll want to protect her' than talking about the actual characters, even after ample amounts of the game had been shown. Then, when it was actually released, a lot of people backtracked and said that it was only the PR that they were lambasting, and that Eidos should have expected that other, dumber people (aside from them, of course) would get their wires crossed.
Some people called that Tomb Raider would paint a clumsy, inept portrait of a strong woman forced to kill (again and again and again and again) bases strictly on early game footage (weird, right?), and felt that some of the lingering shots at death scenes were uncomfortable - not necessarily misogynistic, but clearly in poor taste. Guess which type of critique was shouted down and ignored by most critics until the game actually came out.
partyphone
Banned
So this is also just a mockup of stripper-dances?
Come on. Both use it in a sarcastic way and everyone who played a Suda51 Game would know that.
I dont care about both issues, but thats hypocrisy.
Do you know the context how that appears in the game? If those golfers are antagonists and the whole strippers on the golf course thing is meant to show the absurdity of their characters, then the game is vilifying such behavior instead of glorifying it.
Using a couple of pics from a game that hasn't been released and saying b-b-b-but Rockstar to point out the hypocrisy compared to a game that is out and we know the context of how it uses it's imagery is absurd. Hell, Saint's Row 4 is at least out, using the whole strippers in White House would at least be more analogous.
I'm cool with juvenile humor, but not every may find it to their tastes. Doesn't make a person a hypocrite, it could just mean how much one game uses versus another, or how it's used is different. From what it sounds like, the humor isn't even the biggest problem with the game.
Yup.
But TR was mostly the fault of how it was advertised. Also, no reviewer had any bias against it because of the place it was made in and people who made it. Two of these reviews (Polygon and Gamespot) outright make it seem like a bad thing that it's a Japanese game! Like, wtf?
So....wait. Dragon's Crown having a character with slightly larger mounds of fat on her chest = BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD.
So this is also just a mockup of stripper-dances?
Come on. Both use it in a sarcastic way and everyone who played a Suda51 Game would know that.
I dont care about both issues, but thats hypocrisy.
GTA5 allowing you to use a woman as a golf "hole" and do super suggestive yoga positions = Rockstar gonna Rockstar.
......I....feel this is so damn hypocritical, but I'm gonna restrain myself so the topic doesn't get off track.
In any case, I'll keep my pre-order since I get the bonus stuff & see how it is for myself since I liked both NMH games and felt Lollipop Chainsaw was "okay" for the $15 I spent on it.
Ravensmash
Member
Can you point out where they're criticising it primarily because of it's origins?
The Gamespot review criticises it because it's a "disjointed mess of anime cliches".
Rockstar doesn't really villify anything. It's all glorified and there's no clear line between good and evil. They put this stuff into every game all the time. It's not to make the villains seem awful. It's a vicarious thrill for the players. And that's totally fine, it's an M rated game made for adults. So is Killer is Dead.
aggro crag
Member
Looking at the Matt Lees' thing, did people jump on him for his comments about playing a preview build? I feel like we've all made judgement calls on demos before.
Isn't the difference between the two is that r* games don't put such a large emphasis gameplay-wise in it's objectification, compared to KiD where it's almost necessary to go through gigolo mode multiple times?
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Don't know why the focus keeps going on the sexy stuff. What about some of the worst screen-tearing you'll ever see, or the disjointed clumsy mess for the narrative, or the one-dimensional button mashing combat, or the shoehorned half-assed shooting mechanics...
I mean, the game was janky mediocrity regardless of the Gigolo mode. That's just the weird little ugly cherry on top of the pile.
I mean, the game was janky mediocrity regardless of the Gigolo mode. That's just the weird little ugly cherry on top of the pile.
AGies is on a mission from God.
MackAttack
Banned
Are people really comparing this turd to the GTA series? Make a good game and all is forgiven.
pants
Member
ahahahaha
By that logic Andrew Dice Clay and Louis CK are both comedians that tell jokes for adults, therefore their humor must be the same and if you enjoy one you can't dislike the other without being a hypocrite.
SousedLouse
Member
If the journalists and readers are more concerned about scoring points than the fucking game:
then what's the point?
The issue is a lot more nuanced than just pitting GTA vs Japanese Games. The primary thing I've taken issue with in Killer is Dead and have seen in other reviews is the glorification of sexually predatory behavior and thinking. Most of what people have been bringing up about R* games, while valid are different issues.
There is a big difference between having strippers and prostitutes in a game that models a culture where strippers and prostitutes are commonplace and having a mini-game where you sexually harass women and get them to sleep with you with presents.
Should Red Dead have been called out for the train thing? Assuming it plays out as described, sure. Has GTA always dropped the ball by not having female characters as anything more than set pieces? One-hundred percent.
Rockstars missteps, while reprehensible, aren't making the player act like Tucker Max and I think that's what sets it over the edge for me and others. As for gaming media...the discussion of sexism in games was basically nil when GTA4 hit, and before. I think GTA5 will receive some critical analysis....or at least I hope so.
There is a big difference between having strippers and prostitutes in a game that models a culture where strippers and prostitutes are commonplace and having a mini-game where you sexually harass women and get them to sleep with you with presents.
Should Red Dead have been called out for the train thing? Assuming it plays out as described, sure. Has GTA always dropped the ball by not having female characters as anything more than set pieces? One-hundred percent.
Rockstars missteps, while reprehensible, aren't making the player act like Tucker Max and I think that's what sets it over the edge for me and others. As for gaming media...the discussion of sexism in games was basically nil when GTA4 hit, and before. I think GTA5 will receive some critical analysis....or at least I hope so.
Burgess_101
Member
I played this at Gamescom and really enjoyed it, it was a technical mess (screen tear out the wazoo and playing on PC I don't usually have to deal with it anymore).
I've learnt that very few reviewers opinions match up with my own so I am still looking forward to my copy arriving.
I've learnt that very few reviewers opinions match up with my own so I am still looking forward to my copy arriving.
I don't care about his like or dislike. I care about him saying it's the most objectifying, misogynistic game he's ever played.
Your example here is way off. You are a hypocrite if you call something misogynistic, while simultaneously enjoying something that's far worse. It's not a matter of his taste in the games, it's about his accusations.
Chairmanchuck
Member
You mean ONS arent common? Just go to a japanese bar as a good looking foreigner and you can score a girl every day.
There are easy girls out there.
The same can happen in Germany and is not really a rarity.
Besides. People saying we dont know the context of this stripper-GTA golf-shot yet. So...
Why did Rockstar officially release it? They thought its funny, I guess. But hey. Its Rockstar. They can do it!
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
I actually thought "can fuck off into space" was a pretty good indication where this game was going to go anyway.
SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE
SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE
Where'd he say he enjoyed GTAV? You're calling reviewers hypocrites for not calling out a game that isn't out yet, so I'm not sure how you reached the conclusion that GTAV is far worse.
My example was about Clay who makes dick jokes for the sake of making dick jokes, and CK, who may tell a joke with his dick in it, but his dick usually isn't the point of the joke. How is that way off?
GTA V will get a perfect 10, and all the reviews run by Gies. I'm calling it now. If I'm wrong, I'll eat crow.
As I said, liking one and not the other is fine. I don't care about his personal taste in games.
Sounds like in your theoretical example, it's two dick jokes. Saying one is the enemy of all moral good, while simultaneously enjoying the other might lend yourself to accusations of hypocrisy. Just sayin'.
You may appreciate one joke more than the other, but when you go on a moral crusade, people have a right to see if you have a leg to stand on.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
To be completely honest, I bought it and while I like the fighting and atmosphere (the soundtrack is also very good), it's not that compelling personally. I'll eventually finish it I'm sure, but there are too many good games out right now.
Gigolo Mode is optional, but people are acting like it's the only part of the game, and it's true that many larger games get parts that could be viewed as objectionable overlooked because of studio clout, marketing, and previous goodwill. Smaller devs (Eastern and Western) get scrutinized more closely because there's nothing to lose in alienating a decidedly smaller fan base.
Sensationalism works because people are too lazy or busy to read/watch/play something for themselves.
Gigolo Mode is optional, but people are acting like it's the only part of the game, and it's true that many larger games get parts that could be viewed as objectionable overlooked because of studio clout, marketing, and previous goodwill. Smaller devs (Eastern and Western) get scrutinized more closely because there's nothing to lose in alienating a decidedly smaller fan base.
Sensationalism works because people are too lazy or busy to read/watch/play something for themselves.
What was he vindicated about? He said the game itself looked alright in his video. So far only Gies echoed his claims of "misogyny". If anything, his tweets are revisionist history just so he can fabricate a narrative to say "I told you so" to his detractors, and that just makes it all the more funny.
Erm, some of the US reviews are pretty focused on the gigolo mode.
I just watched two German gaming journalists playing the first hour of the game and didn't notice any tearing. Another pretty serious German PC focused (!) magazine reviewed it, they don't mention it either and they say that the gameplay is anything else but simple button mashing.
Who do I believe?
Burgess_101
Member
There is tearing, quite a lot.
Your heart.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
There's been dozens and dozens of impressions and reviews talking about the horrid screen-tearing. Even the defenders in this very thread say, "Oh, well uh, yeah, the screen tearing is really bad".
Believe what you want, but I think I know where leaning expectations wise.
Yeah, I understand what happens in the minigame is a common occurrence. I think that's really sad and problematic. Therefore, I'm very concerned when people are okay with media that glorifies that kind of behavior.
The difference is GTA isn't as intensely glorifying the existence of prostitutes/strippers/other subjugated roles for women. If, say, GTA had a mission type where you could gain money as a pimp, I would be pretty outraged.
I think there's a place for this type of interaction in gaming (being a pimp, being a bar creep), but the game absolutely has to engage it in a self-aware way. Maybe Suda and I disagree over whether Mondo Zappa's behavior is wrong, but to see that kind of behavior congratulated without any kind of consequence is tacit approval.
Sylverstone14
Member
In space, no one can hear you fuck.
Chairmanchuck
Member
I still see that its also not really a serious topic. The game doesnt really take itself seriously. Either GTA and Killer is Dead are more sarcastic Games or over-the-top. At least thats how I see it.
Saints Row has such missions though.
Saints Row has such missions though.