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[Katana_Strikes]

Everytime I see Penello's name I think Pirelli... so I thought the two went together quite well

 

[Krusenstern]

Would be a megaton if CBOAT is feeding him the info lol.

We need CBOAT coming here and telling us whether or not Albert is spreading disinformation on purpose.

 

[Klocker]

Originally Posted by ERP [/URL]View Post
FWIW my expectation is that PS4 ought to have a performance advantage, but I wouldn't expect it to reflect the difference in CU counts. CU's are MASSIVELY underutilized on vertex heavy workloads and plenty of the frame will be ROP or bandwidth limited.

for reference and more details

I would not jump to the conclusion that Albert is lying... I think we really need to let the dust settle and see more details from people developing or form the Engineers to know more

 

[methane47]

Smell test time.

 

[FrostuTheNinja]

Oh get stuffed. There's a difference between dog piling onto something for no reason and calling out bullshit being told to us multiple times.

I guess typing in all caps wasn't enough of a hint that it was a joke.



Edit:

I'm also the guy who was accused of "projecting from my bubble" by a mod when I stated that consumers were sick of being shit on.

But hey, this was before the reversal of policies and such, so uh yeah. Project.

 

[astraycat]

for reference and more details

I would not jump to the conclusion that Albert is lying... I think we really need to let the dust settle and see more details from people developing or form the Engineers to know more

ERP's quote has been addressed several times on the second page.

 

[Bsigg12]

Not yet, he hasn't posted since this post right here:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=80999997&postcount=1163


Here is a link to all his posts on GAF:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/search.php?searchid=6170789


I am sure he will post later once he gets his answers gathered up. I would think he would at least respond to this story from ARS, but he may wait until the thread gets closed, which is unfortunate.

Well hopefully he gets back to us on those before the end of the week. I would like to see an AMA or a full tech breakdown if possible from the Tech Fellows working on the Xbox at Microsoft.

 

[RedNumberFive]

Everytime I see Penello's name I think Pirelli... so I thought the two went together quite well

Bullseye!

 

[something fishy]

I don't know tech but i'll take Cerny's words over Albert's and his "Tech Fellows".

Not saying Cerny is incapable of spreading FUD. But why would he do a billion conferences explaining why the PS4 is the most powerful and best for developers? Because he knows what he's talking about. Albert should have just simply said they have great teams that can make great looking games. To call out Sony was a dumb mistake.

Cerny is not Kutaragi.

Because he is selling a product or he would just tell them to stick to pc

 

[RoboPlato]

for reference and more details

I would not jump to the conclusion that Albert is lying... I think we really need to let the dust settle and see more details from people developing or form the Engineers to know more

This information is clearly wrong but he isn't lying. Just saying what someone else told him to say. I do think that there is some truth in regards to the difference not being huge in practice but I think he's referring to the plethora of cross gen games. Once next gen only development really kicks in, then we'll see some notable differences.

 

[Chobel]

for reference and more details

I would not jump to the conclusion that Albert is lying... I think we really need to let the dust settle and see more details from people developing or form the Engineers to know more

Here's some comments that responded to ERP in this thread

The funny thing about him talking about the diminishing returns of the CUs is that he mentions that they are ROP/bandwidth limited. In these cases, the PS4 has twice the ROPs, and 3x the bandwidth to main memory -- the performance difference would much more heavily favor the PS4 in these cases.

Most important, he isn't addressing Albert's original argument at all. Albert said that a higher number of CU in itself, not in the context of the entire GPU, leads to a relevant loss of efficiency because that is supposedly an inherent property of multi-core architectures in general. As a general statement that is just not true, and especially not for GPUs.

Read my post again. I don't even mention inefficiencies in core scaling -- I'm just talking about the straight up difference in where he said cores were blocked.

Suppose only 12 cores were used for both the PS4 and the XB1, but both were blocked by either ROPs or by bandwidth to main memory (as his vertex-heavy case seems to imply). In the former case, the PS4 has 2x the ROPs, so should perform roughly 100% better. In the latter, the PS4 has 3x the bandwidth to main memory, so should perform roughly 200% better.

My comment was specifically to point out that the cases that he pointed out were actually some of the worst-case scenarios for XB1 vs. PS4. ESRAM's latency can only possibly help in the ROPs case, but it's not going to nullify a 2x advantage in ROPs. There's also no evidence that there's going to be a significant advantage of latency to ESRAM. Logic says there should be some, but evidence based on L1/L2 latencies say it's not going to be very big.

 

[Jeels]

Actually, yeah. That sounds like a pretty damned good reason. I dare even say the best reason!

What exclusives have you played on your 360 these past few years, do tell.

 

[Derrick01]

It won't mean much in the long run. What was the last super powerful system that won the generation?

I wish people would stop using this broke argument. I can't remember the last time the most powerful system was also the cheapest.

 

[HocusPocus]

The original article is making a lot of assumptions. I think it would have been a better article if they had waited until they had more details. Seems to be a hit piece. Oh and also to add to this post, I do think the PS4 is more powerful. Not saying it's not. I just don't know to what degree in real world applications. If third party games look much better on it then I will sell my XBO and go that direction. Right now I'm sticking to the XBO at launch.

 

[JetBlackPanda]

 

[Nafai1123]

for reference and more details

I would not jump to the conclusion that Albert is lying... I think we really need to let the dust settle and see more details from people developing or form the Engineers to know more

We've heard from developers. I personally thought all this performance comparison would be null and void after that People Can Fly dev stated that he's heard from other devs the PS4 is performing 50% better than the XB1 at this point in development. Not that it's an indication of future performance or quality of games.

But nope, the Penello discussions continue despite him knowing fuck all about development and hardware.

 

[scytherage]

I'd rather wait for more games to come out for both before making a conclusion. Last time every tech site was saying PS3 was more powerful but in the end it was the limitations of HUMANS which made it practically equal to 360 (when later on it was found out it was harder to code for).

 

[Quadraphonic]

I wish people would stop using this broke argument. I can't remember the last time the most powerful system was also the cheapest.

Even more foolish, consider that person's statement of "Most powerful never wins".

To them, they are saying in the history of games, the most powerful device each generation has never been the console leader. That's a fine statement. But for them to be asserting in such a way leads to a SECOND statement of logic from them.

That because the previous consoles were more powerful it caused them to not sell the most consoles.

They're throwing out all the others reasons that are usually (but not this time) associated with with power (Complexity, cost, size, yield, etc.) and simply stating the fact:
"If you make it too powerful, no one will buy it. That's why I want the Xbox One."

 

[RoboPlato]

I'd rather wait for more games to come out for both before making a conclusion. Last time every tech site was saying PS3 was more powerful but in the end it was the limitations of HUMANS which made it practically equal to 360 (when later on it was found out it was harder to code for).

Considering the PS4 has been praised by devs for how easy it is to program for and the toolset is more mature than XBO's last I heard, Sony won't have those shackles of insane architecture this time around.

 

[kpaadet]

Am I the only that find it funny that every time there is a dev downplaying the PS4 (like this B3D guy) he is anonymous, yet the are plenty of devs that have no problem going on record saying there is a fairly big difference.

 

[gruenel]

Everytime I see Penello's name I think Pirelli... so I thought the two went together quite well

 

[Chobel]

Am I the only that find it funny that every time there is a dev downplaying the PS4 (like this B3D guy) he is anonymous

ERP (B3D guy) is not anonymous, his name is known and he did work For Sony as game developer.

yet the are plenty of devs that have no problem going on record saying there is a fairly big difference.

If there was plenty we wouldn't have this thread, AFAIK the only dev that said there's a big difference was PCF ex-dev.

 

[SRG01]

/puts on engineering hat

I think one of the biggest issues about this whole XBO/PS4 argument, especially with the bandwidth number, is that the peak bandwidth number is technically correct while being absolutely meaningless at the same time because that's not what eSRAM is supposed to be used for.

The only way the peak bandwidth number will ever happen is if DDR3 and eSRAM is written/read to each by either the CPU/GPU respectively. However, the data inside the eSRAM has to go back to DDR3 eventually, and the speed of DDR3 is the actual memory bottleneck of what can be done.

The existence of eSRAM isn't for fast bandwidth for the entire system but rather probably something similar to how eDRAM is used in the 360 for "free" frame buffer operations. The eSRAM tiling is indicative of this too; it's meant to get data in and out as fast -- as invisible/transparent -- as possible, and not to increase the bandwidth of the entire bus. In fact, the MMU from the Hot Chips slides do indicate this functionality.

 

[Glorified G]

Ars doesn't know about the Technical Fellow.

He's the real perpetrator here. Everyone leave Albert alone!

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Best just sit back and take the blows Alberto. I really don't want to hear more spin.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Gaf's tech experts said the same thing when he was posting.

Seriously, Penello may not be the perfect messenger for some of the things he was mentioning, but really? Tech experts?

Some of these tech experts much earlier into the spec leaks for these systems appeared to be confusing GDDR5 for actual DDR5 memory, not realizing that it was a variant of DDR3 technology, and that when DDR4 is eventually released, it will be considered newer and more advanced, and then GDDR6 will be released and based on DDR4 memory technology.

Some valid arguments were made and valid points were raised, but tech experts is a bit much lol.

 

[RoboPlato]

ERP (B3D guy) is not anonymous, his name is known and he did work For Sony as game developer.



If there was plenty we wouldn't have this thread, AFAIK the only dev that said there's a big difference was PCF ex-dev.

A few others have openly commented but most of the info has come from people passing on conversations they've had in private. Devs don't want to get on anyone's bad side or possibly slip up on an NDA (which are still in effect, we don't even know the PS4 CPU clock speed officially). EA's NFS team and DICE have both hinted at a difference but haven't outright said anything.

 

[kpaadet]

ERP (B3D guy) is not anonymous, his name is known and he did work For Sony as game developer.

Okay, I don't really know much about B3D so I didn't knew they also mod approved their insiders.

If there was plenty we wouldn't have this thread, AFAIK the only dev that said there's a big difference was PCF ex-dev.

There have been others, like that War of Thunder guy, J Blow, a NFS dev have also said there would be a difference though not which version.

 

[twobear]

BURY ME

 

[Metalmurphy]

How can you take anyone seriously after trying to fool us on the memory bandwidth issue alone.

I mean, just that alone leaves me speechless...

 

[beast786]

Seriously, Penello may not be the perfect messenger for some of the things he was mentioning, but really? Tech experts?

Some of these tech experts much earlier into the spec leaks for these systems appeared to be confusing GDDR5 for actual DDR5 memory, not realizing that it was a variant of DDR3 technology, and that when DDR4 is eventually released, it will be considered newer and more advanced, and then GDDR6 will be released and based on DDR4 memory technology.

Some valid arguments were made and valid points were raised, but tech experts is a bit much lol.[

if not tech experts , won't you at least least say "technical fellows"

 

[Racer1977]

In all these discussions, why is it assumed MS know the intricacies of the PS4 architecture, while the ONE has secret s*** no one else is aware of/understands?

Makes no sense to me.

That's before we even consider who you have more faith in making the better piece of hardware, in terms of power, ease of use, tools etc.

 

[Azull]

I am glad that there are people like Albert on GAF but if they just acted like regular gamers sometimes than it would actually be pretty cool. Most of the time he is downplaying specs, checking stuff with the MS tech guys.

Like, just take a second and comment on something not MS/Sony and than it would be awesome to have you here. Spouting PR (sometimes BS, not gonna lie Albert) is just pointless and starts the console warz up.

 

[Pound_lb003]

This is what bish said in the other thread;

I love that guy. But I'd also buy a dog before I meet him, because I wouldn't want to be quoted by him.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

In all these discussions, why is it assumed MS know the ntricacies of the PS4 architecture, while the ONE has secret s*** no one else is aware of/understands?

Makes no sense to me.

That's before we even consider who you have more faith in making the better piece of hardware, in terms of power, ease of use, tools etc.

Well, there's more information out there about PS4 because they released it first, controlled the sense of the tilt between the platforms by repeatedly claiming to be the most powerful console yet made. Why do exclusive Sony devs, executives, and fans know what's going on with X1 to be taken seriously as the most trusted sources on its capability and worth? It's all marketing. The specs are marketing.

 

[Majanew]

Penello:

Do I want to talk about HDMI 1.3 or 1.4, it's like 'Argh!'. It doesn't matter. Did you see Call of Duty, it looks fucking awesome!

So when does that version of COD get shown? Sure as hell isn't what's been shown so far.

And everyone knows PS4 is more powerful than Xbox One. Some are just grasping. Or are in denial.

 

[UnluckyKate]

Smell test time.

haha

 

[SenjutsuSage]

if not tech experts , won't you at least least say "technical fellows"

God I hate you LOL. I nearly choked on this pepsi I was drinking when I read this. It's a wonder I didn't destroy my new razer keyboard.

 

[jaypah]

Penello:

So when does that version of COD get shown? Sure as hell isn't what's been shown so far.

And everyone knows PS4 is more powerful than Xbox One. Some are just grasping. Or are in denial.

What? Lol who asked him about HDMI? And his response was "Have you seen CoD?" Was this on twitter?

God I hate you LOL. I nearly choked on this pepsi I was drinking when I read this. It's a wonder I didn't destroy my new razer keyboard.

Damn, that's a lot of product placement!

 

[sajj316]

I'd love to be a Microsoft non-Technical fellow. There is a joke in there somewhere ... deep

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

I wish people would stop using this broke argument. I can't remember the last time the most powerful system was also the cheapest.

It is one of the most broken arguments you will see pop up on gaf. It is a good barometer though for people that have no understanding of what lead to the success of past consoles and to disregard their comments on anything related to gaming.

 

[mangochutney]

Well, there's more information out there about PS4 because they released it first, controlled the sense of the tilt between the platforms by repeatedly claiming to be the most powerful console yet made. Why do exclusive Sony devs, executives, and fans know what's going on with X1 to be taken seriously as the most trusted sources on its capability and worth? It's all marketing. The specs are marketing.

Specs are marketing? What?

Shouting them from the roof tops is marketing, but a specification is a specification. They didn't sit round the table and go, 'hey technical fellows, we thought it would be a really good marketing idea if we stuck some of those GDDR5 stick things in this box, get to it men.'

I'm not sure making it known that your specifications are better than your rivals makes it any less relevant. It is still accurate information.

 

[BlazingDarkness]

Smell test time.

Haha

 

[J_Lee]

Is anyone REALLY surprised at MS at this point

I'm not saying Albert is lying, he is simply relaying the information he is given

 

[Amir0x]

It's kind of obvious now that Albert shouldn't post about technical stuff that he doesn't understand (and hey, I probably wouldn't understand much of it either in his position), but I don't think he like conspired to lie or something like some people are implying or outright stating. It's PR, he was probably handed a bill of goods from the engineers to overhype the platform, and him, not really knowing how to interpret it one way or the other, simply explained it as he saw it, and ended up getting his shit in a twist. He may have known it was, in fact, PR, but that's as far as I'm willing to toss it. Everything else is conjecture.

 

[Nafai1123]

Well, there's more information out there about PS4 because they released it first, controlled the sense of the tilt between the platforms by repeatedly claiming to be the most powerful console yet made. Why do exclusive Sony devs, executives, and fans know what's going on with X1 to be taken seriously as the most trusted sources on its capability and worth? It's all marketing. The specs are marketing.

The specs of both consoles have been released and are known. All technical evidence points to one console being more powerful than the other one. That's not marketing, that's a fact. Downplaying the difference is marketing, and poor marketing at that.

 

[RoboPlato]

Penello:

So when does that version of COD get shown? Sure as hell isn't what's been shown so far.

And everyone knows PS4 is more powerful than Xbox One. Some are just grasping. Or are in denial.

That quote's even funnier when you take into account Nelson rambling off the standard HDMI 1.4 specs in the unboxing video as if they were special and unique to the Xbox One.

 

[malfcn]

At this rate MS is going to treat NeoGAF like Japan.

 

[freefornow]

Hmmm. Looking at the chart in the article;

Analysis: Noun
Detailed examination of the elements or structure of something, typically as a basis for discussion or interpretation.
The process of separating something into its constituent elements.

Ars analysis: What? I dont know if thats even true.

Very analytical.

Good click bait though.

 

[Amir0x]

The specs of both consoles have been released and are known. All technical evidence points to one console being more powerful than the other one. That's not marketing, that's a fact. Downplaying the difference is marketing, and poor marketing at that.

He has a decent point about how there's probably not going to be a huge difference between PS4 and XBO games by the end of the gen, at least in terms of how the average consumer could casually grasp the difference. But for us, on a hardcore gaming message board, it was absolutely the wrong message because we will know the difference and some of it WILL be major for us. Things like a worse framerate, for example, can kill a game for some of us.