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Ars Technica: Penello's XB1 Numbers, Ars "Sniff Test" Analysis

FYI, the difference in the ratio between 204/192 and 218/204 is pretty small (much smaller than 0.4%). This mysterious overhead is likely consistently applied to both numbers, but the rounding to GB/s gives some error.

The point I was trying to make about read/write on the same cycle was that there should be no reason for a turnaround time because if you can read/write at the same time, then there shouldn't be a reason to turn around to begin with for calculating maximum theoretical throughput. You just read/write every cycle.
Okay, understood. And your point about rounding is quite true.

I don't think that affects my main point, though, which is that it doesn't look to me like Microsoft is lying or fudging the numbers. They seem to be calculated the same way before and after a clock change, and in my estimation it's very unlikely Microsoft would flat-out present voodoo numbers at Hotchips, with all the egg that might end up on their faces.

It looks to me like they're honestly presenting the true theoretical speed of the eSRAM, at 204 GB/s.
 

CLEEK

Member
It's a missed opportunity and quite annoying really, I know I'm whining a bit here but I'd rather see them all going locked-60fps on everything,

Games are all about trade offs. You can target resolution and frame rate, or you can target the latest rendering and lighting tech. Next gen will certainly see a ton of games running at 30fps if the art guys want to show off fancy effects.

This old article sums up why so few days target 60fps now.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/insomniac-60fps-no-more

You'd be surprised how many gamers can't tell the difference. I know a game Producer who swears blind he can't tell the difference between 30fps and 60fps, if if running side by side. Likewise, I'm sure not many people can tell if a game is 720p or 1080p (or sub-HD vs native 720p).
 

Bundy

Banned
That's yet another problem. If the console is easy to develop for, and super skillful first party devs as Guerrilla and Evolution still have to aim for 30fps to get better effects, but still don't make you go "yuck" whenever you see a XB1 title - doesn't that make you question what's the big deal with that extra power?
It's a missed opportunity and quite annoying really
Simpe answer: LAUNCH GAMES!
They have no time!
Wait for their second game / 2nd gen games or look at inFAMOUS. Best looking next-gen game (and it´s open-world).
 

astraycat

Member
Okay, understood. And your point about rounding is quite true.

I don't think that affects my main point, though, which is that it doesn't look to me like Microsoft is lying or fudging the numbers. They seem to be calculated the same way before and after a clock change, and in my estimation it's very unlikely Microsoft would flat-out present voodoo numbers at Hotchips, with all the egg that might end up on their faces.

It looks to me like they're honestly presenting the true theoretical speed of the eSRAM, at 204 GB/s.

I'd be more inclined to let it go if they would just tell us what the magical overhead actually is. My suspicion is that it's some quirk with the ROPs, since they've said it's related to alpha blending in the past.

This is important because it will tell us how likely you are to actually be able to achieve anything higher than 109GB/s. If it's not a common operation, or it requires some relatively unused render target format, then you're going to have to fenangle your code and twist your brain to take advantage of it.
 
Simpe answer: LAUNCH GAMES!
They have no time!
Wait for their second game / 2nd gen games or look at inFAMOUS. Best looking next-gen game (and it´s open-world).

As usual, launch games use a fraction of the real power of new platforms (i would say that THE ONLY exception to this rule was MArio 64, that was fraeaking awesome). Anyway, some of the launch titles looks really well: Forza 5, Killzone, Watch Dogs, specially.
 
I'd be more inclined to let it go if they would just tell us what the magical overhead actually is. My suspicion is that it's some quirk with the ROPs, since they've said it's related to alpha blending in the past.

This is important because it will tell us how likely you are to actually be able to achieve anything higher than 109GB/s. If it's not a common operation, or it requires some relatively unused render target format, then you're going to have to fenangle your code and twist your brain to take advantage of it.
Yes, more transparency would be nice. Because even though I don't think they're lying, I agree that they're probably using an edge case to spin the number positively. Below is my reasoning, but perhaps I don't have a grasp of the fundamentals; feel free to correct me.

My understanding is that typical max bandwidth numbers (like PS4's 176 GB/s) are theoretical not because the silicon inherently can't reach that value, but because of the behavior of memory access code run on it. There's a combination of reads and writes going on at any one time. Sometimes, one in-flight process will need to read data that another process hasn't written yet, so it has to wait. If you have tons and tons of processes going on at once--which you evidently do in graphical work--you might not really lose that bandwidth, though. While the first process waits you can switch to another one to take up the slack. You can't guarantee there'll always be an option, but there usually should be so the lost bandwidth overall is low. Just Add Water recently said they were getting ~170 GB/s on PS4, which would be ~97% efficiency.

It seems to me that on One the stall issue would be far worse, though. With the eSRAM only 32 MB, fewer processes can be using this memory pool at one time. So when one needs to wait, there aren't as many candidates to switch to. Plus even if you find one, sometimes the needed data will be over in DDR3 instead and you have to wait anyway. Together these things would make stalls more common, and that seems to be supported by Eurogamer's initial report. Back then, when the theoretical max of eSRAM was 192 GB/s, Microsoft's real-world example only achieved 133 GB/s. That's a mere ~69% efficiency.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but even if the 204 GB/s number is technically correct for the One eSRAM, it seems it isn't comparable like-for-like with the PS4's figure. They're both "theoretical max", but One's is a lot less likely to be reached than the other. If I'm right, comparing them directly would be pretty disingenuous.
 

Wereroku

Member
That's yet another problem. If the console is easy to develop for, and super skillful first party devs as Guerrilla and Evolution still have to aim for 30fps to get better effects, but still don't make you go "yuck" whenever you see a XB1 title - doesn't that make you question what's the big deal with that extra power?
It's a missed opportunity and quite annoying really, I know I'm whining a bit here but I'd rather see them all going locked-60fps on everything, otherwise it just seems like the console is too weak or they aren't trying hard enough. WiiU titles running at 60fps is easy to take but XB1's Forza5 at 60fps while PS4's Driveclub is 30fps is simply annoying even if there are more advanced effects etc. KillzoneSF at 30fps will be even more annoying if Halo5 turn out running at 60fps.

Oh well I still have PS4 with a bunch of games preordered for Nov29 while XB1 still haven't got a launch date in my country, so maybe the second wave PS4 games and ND's next wizardry will be out before I even get to try the XB1 launch titles.
Killzones multiplayer is running at 60fps actually. Also drive club is a brand new engine with complete dynamic lighting and a smaller studio. Turn10 is just porting the forza 4 engine and using prebaked lighting tech. They are very different situations.
 

nib95

Banned
Yes, more transparency would be nice. Because even though I don't think they're lying, I agree that they're probably using an edge case to spin the number positively. Below is my reasoning, but perhaps I don't have a grasp of the fundamentals; feel free to correct me.

My understanding is that typical max bandwidth numbers (like PS4's 176 GB/s) are theoretical not because the silicon inherently can't reach that value, but because of the behavior of memory access code run on it. There's a combination of reads and writes going on at any one time. Sometimes, one in-flight process will need to read data that another process hasn't written yet, so it has to wait. If you have tons and tons of processes going on at once--which you evidently do in graphical work--you might not really lose that bandwidth, though. While the first process waits you can switch to another one to take up the slack. You can't guarantee there'll always be an option, but there usually should be so the lost bandwidth overall is low. Just Add Water recently said they were getting ~170 GB/s on PS4, which would be ~97% efficiency.

It seems to me that on One the stall issue would be far worse, though. With the eSRAM only 32 MB, fewer processes can be using this memory pool at one time. So when one needs to wait, there aren't as many candidates to switch to. Plus even if you find one, sometimes the needed data will be over in DDR3 instead and you have to wait anyway. Together these things would make stalls more common, and that seems to be supported by Eurogamer's initial report. Back then, when the theoretical max of eSRAM was 192 GB/s, Microsoft's real-world example only achieved 133 GB/s. That's a mere ~69% efficiency.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but even if the 204 GB/s number is technically correct for the One eSRAM, it seems it isn't comparable like-for-like with the PS4's figure. They're both "theoretical max", but One's is a lot less likely to be reached than the other. If I'm right, comparing them directly would be pretty disingenuous.

This is a really interesting post. Didn't realise we had real world bandwidth numbers to gauge efficiency comparative to the promoted theoretical maxes. Based on the links, PS4 thus far is getting far closer to it's theoretical max than the XO is with it's Esram. 170 GB/s versus 133 GB/s is quite the discrepancy.
 

CLEEK

Member
As usual, launch games use a fraction of the real power of new platforms

I always think that a good example is Ridge Racer on the PS1. It was state of the art when it launched, and ran at 320 × 240 at 30fps. Then Namco updated it a few years later with the Ridge Racer Turbo Mode version included with R4. This one ran at 640×480 at 60fps. An incredible increase, like going from 720p/30 to 1080p/60.
 
It seems like some people spend more time arguing about tech specs than actually playing video games.

Well we can't really play games on the PS4 and XB1 yet, so the next best thing is talking about them. And frankly, I'm really loving all this tech talk. I didn't know much at all about the actual technology inside the video game systems before the PS4 was announced. Since then, I've learned a metric ton about how things like RAM and clock speeds work. It's fascinating to me.

And when people post things that sound good (But are wrong), knowing how to see through it is very valuable. Keep it up GAF!
 

Fredrik

Member
Killzones multiplayer is running at 60fps actually. Also drive club is a brand new engine with complete dynamic lighting and a smaller studio. Turn10 is just porting the forza 4 engine and using prebaked lighting tech. They are very different situations.
Yet another annoyance lol, why don't have that scaled back 60fps mode as a display option so people that don't want to ppay online can enjoy that as well? I'd love to have prebaked lighting and 60fps in Driveclub too, same thing add it as a display option so people that enjoy high framerates in racing games can get what they want while those who love dynamic lighting can get their fix as well. Or why not add a resolution option as well? Would fix most performance issues.
(edit sorry for going off topic btw)
 

stryke

Member
Yet another annoyance lol, why don't have that scaled back 60fps mode as a display option so people that don't want to ppay online can enjoy that as well? I'd love to have prebaked lighting and 60fps in Driveclub too, same thing add it as a display option so people that enjoy high framerates in racing games can get what they want while those who love dynamic lighting can get their fix as well. Or why not add a resolution option as well? Would fix most performance issues.

What you're suggesting is basically doubling the developer's work load. If you're so concerned about this stuff, a heard PC is a pretty good place to start.
 

watership

Member
It seems like some people spend more time arguing about tech specs than actually playing video games.

Clearly you don't know PC gamers who attach specs about their forum post signatures under the title "my current rig". Back in the day when PC gaming really WAS in a bad rut, these guys did nothing but benchmark and post about it online. It would have been funny if it wasn't so incredibly sad.

Don't worry too much about it. The spec argument dies down once games are being played. When Halo 3 turned out not to be fully HD, I had a pc gamer friend actually YELL at me, saying I shouldn't be having fun, while I took down a scarab single-handedly.
 

onanie

Member
I'd love to have prebaked lighting and 60fps in Driveclub too, same thing add it as a display option so people that enjoy high framerates

Yes, why not. It's so easy. To add it as an option, just take all the tracks that you have, and re-texture each one for a particular time of the day.

Why not take it further. Sometimes you don't feel like racing at 2:18pm, but really feeling 3:42pm. It's so easy. Just re-texture each track 1440 times, and store it in the ample space provided by the blu-ray disc. Remember to repeat that for all your tracks.
 

Skeff

Member
Yet another annoyance lol, why don't have that scaled back 60fps mode as a display option so people that don't want to ppay online can enjoy that as well? I'd love to have prebaked lighting and 60fps in Driveclub too, same thing add it as a display option so people that enjoy high framerates in racing games can get what they want while those who love dynamic lighting can get their fix as well. Or why not add a resolution option as well? Would fix most performance issues.
(edit sorry for going off topic btw)

So...you want them to just make 2 games instead of 1 and you think it would turn out to be a better product?
 
Ars Technica recently reported on Albert Penello's statements that, "The performance delta between the two platforms (XB1 and PS4) is not as great as the raw numbers lead the average consumer to believe," and his following NeoGAF postings in regard to some of these numbers.

Most of the article is a recap of what many of us read and experienced, but the relevant new information here is the "sniff test" analysis from Ars Technica's Peter Bright on Penello's statements:

Thought it would be good to hear an opinion from an outside voice. Take if for what you will.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/09/microsoft-exec-defends-xbox-one-from-accusations-its-underpowered/

Obviously, strike it down if I missed someone else posting the thread.

Mr. Pennelo probably didn't enjoy seeing Jack Tretton on Fox News yesterday proclaiming the PS4 the most powerful console ever made. I do notice Microsoft's employees and spokesmen are not making the same claims. I don't understand what Mr. Pennelo is getting out of spinning the power discrepancy on a gaming forum like neogaf. Seems like his time could be better spent elsewhere. Larry Hryb is hitting reddit pretty hard as well. It all looks like an orchestrated PR damage control campaign to me.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
Simpe answer: LAUNCH GAMES!
They have no time!
Wait for their second game / 2nd gen games or look at inFAMOUS. Best looking next-gen game (and it´s open-world).

The same is true of Xbone though. In fact, we have pretty good reason to believe that the Xbone's launch games are even more rushed.
 
See, this is why I don't like Microsoft. All that blatant attempt at misleading consumers and PR misdirection. Big difference from the marketing fluff that other companies do.


Ultimately I could get an Xbone if there's a game I want bad enough, but that will be LONG after all the bullshit has died down and people know everything about the console.
 

Gavarms

Member
Power struggle: the real differences between PS4 and Xbox One performance (EDGE)

PlayStation 4 is currently around 50 per cent faster than its rival Xbox One. Multiple high-level game development sources have described the difference in performance between the consoles as “significant” and “obvious.”

Our contacts have told us that memory reads on PS4 are 40-50 per cent quicker than Xbox One, and its ALU (Arithmetic Logic Unit) is around 50 per cent faster. One basic example we were given suggested that without optimisation for either console, a platform-agnostic development build can run at around 30FPS in 1920×1080 on PS4, but it’ll run at “20-something” FPS in 1600×900 on Xbox One. “Xbox One is weaker and it’s a pain to use its ESRAM,” concluded one developer.

More at the link.
 

Osiris

I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
So much smoke now that it's hard to deny the fire.
 

Ushae

Banned
Mr. Pennelo probably didn't enjoy seeing Jack Tretton on Fox News yesterday proclaiming the PS4 the most powerful console ever made. I do notice Microsoft's employees and spokesmen are not making the same claims. I don't understand what Mr. Pennelo is getting out of spinning the power discrepancy on a gaming forum like neogaf. Seems like his time could be better spent elsewhere. Larry Hryb is hitting reddit pretty hard as well. It all looks like an orchestrated PR damage control campaign to me.

Everyone knows the PS4 packs more power under the hood. The thing everyone seems to be hung up over is how much of a difference it really willbe in real world performance.

On one end of the spectrum we have a system (PS4) that hugely outpaces the other (XB1) by a margin as big as 50%, people who are leaning on this opinion insist that the first party games will make the other system look like shit and differences will be very noticable.

The other end claims that there are so many variations in memory subsystems, architecture and hardware level optimizations that the difference won't be as big, thus real world differences between games won't be very noticable. This group insists that the games will still look great between 3rd party games.
 

GSG Flash

Nobody ruins my family vacation but me...and maybe the boy!
I still can't believe Albert actually tried passing off combined bandwidth numbers and thought that we would buy it.

Infact, I'd like Albert to provide a real world example for how it's even possible to magically reach 272 gb/s with the Xbone's memory architecture.
 

bonus_sco

Banned
I still can't believe Albert actually tried passing off combined bandwidth numbers and thought that we would buy it.

Infact, I'd like Albert to provide a real world example for how it's even possible to magically reach 272 gb/s with the Xbone's memory architecture.

The GPU can use both memory pools at the same time.

You could be reading from a render buffer in ESRAM, writing to a render buffer in ESRAM, reading textures from DRAM and moving GPGPU results from ESRAM to DRAM all at the same time.

In that scenario, you can add the bandwidths.
 
The GPU can use both memory pools at the same time.

You could be reading from a render buffer in ESRAM, writing to a render buffer in ESRAM, reading textures from DRAM and moving GPGPU results from ESRAM to DRAM all at the same time.

In that scenario, you can add the bandwidths.

You can't because that's a BEST CASE scenario, something that's unlikely to happen that often.
 

Skeff

Member
all bandwidth figures are peak. bandwidth by definition refers to capacity

Not all Peaks are born equal.

There are reports of PS4's GDDR5 running at around 170GB/s Yet the magical esrams 208gb/s has been confirmed to only be possible in certain algorithms and even then the highest they have achieved is 133gb/s.

Once you get to adding different bandwidths from different memory pools your looking at managing data in these pools which is not only difficult, but is actually impossible at times.

I would be surprised if Devs can get consistently above 150gb/s bandwidth to the GPU in real life situations where as we already know the PS4 can feed 170gb/s to the GPU currently.
 

bonus_sco

Banned
Not all Peaks are born equal.

There are reports of PS4's GDDR5 running at around 170GB/s Yet the magical esrams 208gb/s has been confirmed to only be possible in certain algorithms and even then the highest they have achieved is 133gb/s.

Once you get to adding different bandwidths from different memory pools your looking at managing data in these pools which is not only difficult, but is actually impossible at times.

I would be surprised if Devs can get consistently above 150gb/s bandwidth to the GPU in real life situations where as we already know the PS4 can feed 170gb/s to the GPU currently.

The PS4 bandwidth figure will be for the total system unless the GPU is choking all the other systems in the box. That would be bad as the CPU would stop feeding the GPU and it would stall.

Comparing total system utilised bandwidth to GPU ESRAM only bandwidth isn't an apples to apples comparison, as they like to say around these parts.
 

KidBeta

Junior Member
The PS4 bandwidth figure will be for the total system unless the GPU is choking all the other systems in the box. That would be bad as the CPU would stop feeding the GPU and it would stall.

Comparing total system utilised bandwidth to GPU ESRAM only bandwidth isn't an apples to apples comparison, as they like to say around these parts.

The point is theres likely near 0 scenarios that you can use all of the eSRAM bandwidth, the highest that they have come across is 133GB/s. Therefore its a bit shady to go 204+64 for the XBONE, when it will never reach that peak.
 

jryi

Senior Analyst, Fanboy Drivel Research Partners LLC
You can't because that's a BEST CASE scenario, something that's unlikely to happen that often.

Yeah but think of the POSSIBILITIES!

And if you add to that a 1Gbps fiber connection, you'll get even more bandwidth. And imagine, if you're on a train leaving from Boston for New York at 5pm and travelling at 150MPH.

And it's cloudy!
 

velociraptor

Junior Member
This is anecdotal from E3, but...

I've heard the architecture with the ESRAM is actually a major hurdle in development because you need to manually fill and flush it.

So unless MS's APIs have improved to the point that this is essentially automatic, the bandwidth and hardware speed are probably irrelevant.

For reference, the story going around E3 went something like this:

"ATVI was doing the CoD: Ghosts port to nextgen. It took three weeks for PS4 and came out at 90 FPS unoptimized, and four months on Xbone and came out at 15 FPS."
I find this hard to believe.

edit: Oops, had no idea this thread was so old.
 

velociraptor

Junior Member
Back from the dead!

There was me thinking there would be something new and exciting to read.
In my defence, the quote that I quoted was linked in the Ghosts PS4 thread :p

The poster in question is a dev for skull girls

He's not random internet person like the rest of us

That being said he is simply reiterating a story that was being passed around E3
Ah right. That's pretty shocking.
 

velociraptor

Junior Member
Kagari also heard similar stuff, so it's actually quite easy to believe.

This obviously cannot be due to the GPU, correct? I know the Xbox has a weaker GPU but not 15FPS weak - a 7770 runs BLOPS 2 1080p60 without any issues. I guess, out of the box, the ESRAM is a major obstacle unless devs optimise. I suppose this corroborates with what EDGE said with regards to the RAM setup of the Xbox.
 

Guymelef

Member
Kagari also heard similar stuff, so it's actually quite easy to believe.


Also:
g7hA39R.png
 
This obviously cannot be due to the GPU, correct? I know the Xbox has a weaker GPU but not 15FPS weak - a 7770 runs BLOPS 2 1080p60 without any issues. I guess, out of the box, the ESRAM is a major obstacle unless devs optimise. I suppose this corroborates with what EDGE said with regards to the RAM setup of the Xbox.

Yeah GPU should not cause development difficulties as they should be able to turn Resolution and Framerate down

ESram seems to cause some hassle developing on the XB1 though.
 

gaming_noob

Member
So games will require more time, thus more money, to develop on the Xbone with a fraction of the performance of PS4's version. If you want multiplatform games it's an obvious choice to go with the PS4. I'd pay to see how these suits at the Xbox division have been coping the last few months.
 

Nokterian

Member
This is anecdotal from E3, but...

I've heard the architecture with the ESRAM is actually a major hurdle in development because you need to manually fill and flush it.

So unless MS's APIs have improved to the point that this is essentially automatic, the bandwidth and hardware speed are probably irrelevant.

For reference, the story going around E3 went something like this:

"ATVI was doing the CoD: Ghosts port to nextgen. It took three weeks for PS4 and came out at 90 FPS unoptimized, and four months on Xbone and came out at 15 FPS."

Holy shit at that last sentence...
 
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