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Love Boat [Mafia] |OT| Till Death Do Us Part

Since you're in the know, why did a scum who is presumably also a power role claim miller and tracker on D1? The miller claim brought attention and the tracker claim meant they needed to provide town with info. The info they have so far provided also doesn't contradict with what we have from (presumably town) Kark and was provided before Kark claimed anything.

Make a claim that's believable enough that people can't make a decision on it. Considering no one knew the tone of the game or its roles, Blawl did good by coming out with it first. He gambled on there not being either of those roles (safe bet considering Crabs 5/10 description). However, they overestimated their ability to combat a counterclaim
 

Ty4on

Member
Make a claim that's believable enough that people can't make a decision on it. Considering no one knew the tone of the game or its roles, Blawl did good by coming out with it first. He gambled on there not being either of those roles (safe bet considering Crabs 5/10 description). However, they overestimated their ability to combat a counterclaim

What's the purpose of it?
 

Karkador

Banned
So why are we inching ever so closely to a day ending vote? I've always thought, that regardless if our mind is made up, it behooves us to keep the day for as long as possible. People trying to end it early don't make much sense to me.

There's very little other voting/topics going on, and we need a commitment on votes. Like I said before, these non-committed votes are some of the fuzzy areas where scum hide.
 

Ty4on

Member
On everyone else regardless of flip? We are currently working on something to leave in case we die tonight.

Did I miss this or is it still being made?
There is a fairly apparent voting pattern from D1, involving Blawl and Ultrajay/Boo, that is very much worth looking into if they flip scum. But they need to flip scum first, so it's not really worth pursuing until then, especially if it's just going to obfuscate this thing today.

By now I think it's clear that Blawl will be lynched and if you're town then from your angle it's also pretty clear that they will flip scum.
Do you have any more thoughts on the matter? You keep talking of today's voting record.
 

Camjo-Z

Member
OK, I was finally able to catch up on these megaposts... mostly.

Blarg: thanks for the town read, but while I still am not at all sold on Flux/Time’s innocence (nor do I like Splinter's transparent attempts to paint me as maf based on my not-especially unreasonable suspicions of them), your reasons for killing them first don’t hold much water IMO. I don’t see hardly anything you've stated that would happen as a result of their lynch that's vastly more beneficial if it happens today rather than later. The only potential gain is extra tracking reports, but you just know that you and Kark are going to end up (or conveniently claim) role blocked when D3 rolls around and we'll be back where we started. Meanwhile, here we have a choice between lynches where one is almost guaranteed to be maf. It's a no-brainer.

Now, it is true that Kark could be the maf and you’re the townie. However: Kark initiated this whole debacle. If he's maf, he doesn't gain anything particularly substantial by trading himself just to get a tracker who was already tainted by a Miller claim anyway. Heck, if there’s a vig or town roleblocker in play, he might not even have the chance to get another report for his maf buddies. A lotta risk, not a lotta reward. No matter what, if you flip town, he dies tomorrow. (There is also the possibility that you’re both town trackers, but if that’s the case then this matchup was always destined to be, as they say, “staged”. Not even worth wasting brain cells on it.)

So, there's my reasoning. Not that it really matters since the rest of town has made up their mind anyway, but at least I don't have to feel like I'm just sheeping.

VOTE: Blargonaut
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
I can't shake this uneasy feeling... it's why I was thinking of alternatives to both teams being trackers, with one necessarily being scum and the other town.

Both teams are suspicious to me, which makes for a pretty compelling situation right here. But they can't both be scum, obviously. Hm...

VOTE: Blargonaut

Final vote. It's really that miller claim which pushes me their way. If it wasn't for that, I probably would have voted for Karkador.
 

Ty4on

Member
They can both be scum, unlikely, but they can :p

Seriously though, what is so bothersome about the miller claim? It seems like a risky thing to do as scum.
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
They can both be scum, unlikely, but they can :p

Seriously though, what is so bothersome about the miller claim? It seems like a risky thing to do as scum.

It does. But that also why it's suspect. I dunno, man, it seems like an early way to cover their ass if they eventually got investigated by an alignment cop, which I'm pretty sure we don't actually have.
 
OK, I was finally able to catch up on these megaposts... mostly.

Blarg: thanks for the town read, but while I still am not at all sold on Flux/Time’s innocence (nor do I like Splinter's transparent attempts to paint me as maf based on my not-especially unreasonable suspicions of them), your reasons for killing them first don’t hold much water IMO. I don’t see hardly anything you've stated that would happen as a result of their lynch that's vastly more beneficial if it happens today rather than later. The only potential gain is extra tracking reports,

No, not just 2 extra tracking reports; it seems like you missed the most important part of our proposal:

Objectively, why lynch Timeflux or Team Zippador first and not Team BLAWL?
In pure quantitative terms, you gain more information from lynching Timeflux first than from lynching Team BLAWL first, with Team Zippador being the next best choice for lynching.

By lynching Timeflux first (5 separate pieces of information gained)
  • By flipping Timeflux's alignment, you learn whether or not Karkador x Zippedpinhead are colluding scum who pulled off this gambit to save Timeflux for another Day (besides the inherent scumminess that I find should be a reason for lynching him over us). Kark keeps saying it has to be us, Team BLAWL, or themselves, who must be lynched Today, yet pushes and pushes us with accusatory theories and yet has never been seriously placed on the defensive himself. Timeflux has recently begun to push for our lynching, in the end accepting Kark's claim as "real and only Town Tracker" to be genuine despite nothing confirming his alignment claim whatsoever, and agreeing with Kark's accusations of us in order to save their own skins Today.
  • By flipping Timeflux's alignment, you learn whether or not Splinter x Cabot are scum in collusion, since after Timeflux's D2 "confession", they are the biggest proponents and defenders of Timeflux's innocence, saying that they are just naive Townies who failed in their alleged D1 pro-Town gambit and that their D2 backdown was relatively harmless. They and Kark have been extremely chummy together, as Splint x Cabot has never attempted to really put Kark on the defensive despite being one of the most active pairs in the game, and they both support Timeflux's innocence and avoidance of a policy-lynching despite Timeflux's blatant confessed lie of being a Name Cop and their strange WIFOM requests surrounding their now-retracted claim.
  • By flipping Timeflux's alignment, you learn whether or not Blargonaut x Kawl_USC are scum in collusion with Timeflux with the whole D1 double-claim fiasco as part of some ridiculously far-fetched scum dual open Role-claim mega-gambit of unknown intent and conclusion.
  • By flipping Timeflux's alignment, you remove a WIFOM problem that will have to eventually be confronted anyway. Like us, they are a topic of debate that will not go away unless you lynch them, or, since they have not claimed to be Millers like us, if they are Investigated later (which, if the x-shot mechanic is true for any Investigator out there, is what I consider to be a waste of a non-renewable resource when a well-deserved policy lynch of unlimited use can achieve the same flip). Remember that Timeflux 'apparently ex-Role Name Cop' on D1 explicitly warned away Doctors and other power roles from visiting them at Night. They have gunned for maximum WIFOM in both their lie and in their apparent D2 confession, much moreso than anything Team BLAWL has done. Why?
  • There is greater pro-Town reward to be had by allowing both potentially Town-aligned, confirmed Trackers to collect one more round of Tracking info each this N2 and present it to you all D3. As both mutually-confirmed Trackers, this goes for both Karkador x Zippedpinhead and Blargonaut x Kawl_USC. You need tangible information and we can both provide.

COMPARED TO​

By lynching Team BLAWL first (2 separate pieces of information gained)
  • By flipping Team BLAWL first, you get rid of your inescapable Miller problem early. However, we are a confirmed Tracker power role of unknowable alignment at the very least, while you still don't know what Timeflux really is nor their own alignment at the most.
  • By flipping Team BLAWL first, you do NOT directly find out whether Karkador x Zippedpinhead and *Splinter x Cabot were in scum collusion in redirecting attention and defending Timeflux from lynching Today, respectively. You lose two leads. We have no allies in public here, and the majority votes show it. Therefore, if you lynch us first, our alignment flip will have been in a vacuum of no attachments nor any possible #scumtell or #TownConfirm leads to anyone except Team Zippador alone, who was our mutual N1 power-confirmer.

I'm sorry to throw a quote chunk at you like that, but I don't know how else to ask you to regard this as a whole picture:

*Splinter x Cabot (unknown)
Karkador x Zippedpinhead (claimed x-shot Tracker)
FluxWaveZ x Timeaisis (claimed Name Cop, said it was a lie)


vs.

Blargonaut x Kawl_USC (claimed Miller/unlimited Tracker)

Those 6 have been the dominators of over 28 players since the beginning of the game. Please, tell me, doesn't their apparent D1 and early D2 antagonizing of each other, then their somehow magical D2 camaraderie after Timeflux confessed they were lying, seem suspicious to you at all?

If you lynch us and we flip as Town, you learn nothing about *Splinter, Cabot, FluxWaveZ and Timeaisis' alignments. You only learn about Karkador and Zippedpinhead, because they are the only ones we've had direct relations with during our time alive here.

If you lynch Timeflux for his alignment, you have a direct gauge for whether *Splinter, Cabot, Karkador, Zippedpinhead, FluxWaveZ and Timeaisis were acting in collusion since D1 all along (that's information about SIX players compared to just TWO if you lynch us). You get 5 leads FASTER, than only 2 leads from killing us!

It's a simple matter of numbers, amount of leads gained. As I quoted above, 5 leads from Timeflux's lynching, compared to only 2 from ours.

(cont., one sec)
 

Ty4on

Member
It does. But that also why it's suspect. I dunno, man, it seems like an early way to cover their ass if they eventually got investigated by an alignment cop, which I'm pretty sure we don't actually have.

Exactly. Why fake claim miller when a role cop has already been revealed?
Does scum have a godfather?
 
Blarg,

I don't think they are buying the timeflux/*splibot/karkhead scum lead.

I mean if we were all scum and colluding to get you out that would be the whole team (I can't imagine there being more than 3 teams of scum in this game and 1 neutral team).

If we are both town trackers, then I think we got dealt a rough hand... But it's the Miller claim that forced our hand, and it's the Miller claim that will likely get you lynched.
 
Exactly. Why fake claim miller when a role cop has already been revealed?
Does scum have a godfather?

What do you mean by a role cop revealed? Are you referring to Timeflux?

They admitted they were lying!

Objectively, doesn't that give our Miller claim more veracity for its existence? There is no more mechanical conflict since they backed down!
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
Exactly. Why fake claim miller when a role cop has already been revealed?
Does scum have a godfather?

Blarg did imply that his team name gave the role away, so maybe it would partly be out of fear that we were actually role cops and that we would learn that from their name?

Either way, I forgot that Blarg's gunning for us, so omgus.
 

Karkador

Banned
I know I haven't paid much attention to cabot and Splinter here, but you're conjuring up a thing to look at that doesn't exist, and weighing it as an equally valuable piece of info. For the record, I think they're suspicious, but this has taken priority.
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
What do you mean by a role cop revealed? Are you referring to Timeflux?

They admitted they were lying!

Objectively, doesn't that give our Miller claim more veracity for its existence? There is no more mechanical conflict since they backed down!

Why would a miller exist in a game without an actual alignment cop?
 

Ty4on

Member
What do you mean by a role cop revealed? Are you referring to Timeflux?

They admitted they were lying!

Objectively, doesn't that give our Miller claim more veracity for its existence? There is no more mechanical conflict since they backed down!

From a hypothetical scum Blawl's point of view a role cop had claimed. The point being that fake claiming miller in that situation is a bit weird as it contradicts the cop claim.
 

Burbeting

Banned
el topo & giant panda (0)
cabot
cabot

launchpadmcq & gorlak (1)
giant panda
ultrajay
coppanuva

kingkitty & hyperactivity (0)
cabot

timeaisis & fluxwavez (1)
gorlak
coppanuva
blargonaut
fluxwavez
camjo-z
blargonaut
tl21xx
blargonaut

magnumboy20xx & batsnacks (0)
flame_ac
ty4on

*splinter & cabot (1)
launchpadmcq
ty4on

blargonaut & kawl_usc (14)
karkador
zippedpinhead
flame_ac
hyperactivity
*splinter
timeaisis
camjo-z
tl21xx
launchpadmcq
kyanrute
ultrajay
retroid
fluxwavez
ultrajay
camjo-z
fluxwavez
batsnacks
cabot

hobohodo & ty4on (0)
cabot
cabot
cabot
fluxwavez

coppanuva & flame_ac (1)
dusk soldier

karkador & zippedpinhead (1)
gorlak
ty4on
blargonaut
karu

15 Votes Needed for Majority
 
Blarg,

I don't think they are buying the timeflux/*splibot/karkhead scum lead.

I mean if we were all scum and colluding to get you out that would be the whole team (I can't imagine there being more than 3 teams of scum in this game and 1 neutral team).

If we are both town trackers, then I think we got dealt a rough hand... But it's the Miller claim that forced our hand, and it's the Miller claim that will likely get you lynched.

Exactly, which is why I want to lynch Timeflux to find out whether this easy Miller bussing is part of a gambit of the six of you in possible scum collusion.

I even quantified this, the 5 leads gained from lynching them over us.

Is it not more logical to find out if there is a connection between 6 players (Splint, Cab, Kark, Zip, Flux, Time; and, us, even making that 8) with one stone, rather than between 4 (Blarg, Kawl, Kark, Zip) with one stone?
 

Ty4on

Member
Blarg did imply that his team name gave the role away, so maybe it would partly be out of fear that we were actually role cops and that we would learn that from their name?

Either way, I forgot that Blarg's gunning for us, so omgus.

Again. They're as in the dark as the rest of us regarding cops having just heard a role cop claiming.
Assumptions: Blawl is scum, Flux is town.
Then they role claim miller to protect themselves from the cop, but the claim contradicts* Flux' role. Why fake claim a contradicting role.

*Not directly, but it created a lot of friction because role cop + miller makes little sense in a 15 player game
 

Karkador

Banned
Exactly, which is why I want to lynch Timeflux to find out whether this easy Miller bussing is part of a gambit of the six of you in possible scum collusion.

I even quantified this, the 5 leads gained from lynching them over us.

Is it not more logical to find out if there is a connection between 6 players (Splint, Cab, Kark, Zip, Flux, Time; and, us, even making that 8) with one stone, rather than between 4 (Blarg, Kawl, Kark, Zip) with one stone?

Explain again how Flux flipping anything confirms that much.

I encouraged you to give us an alternative, but you're inflating this deal
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
Again. They're as in the dark as the rest of us regarding cops having just heard a role cop claiming.
Assumptions: Blawl is scum, Flux is town.
Then they role claim miller to protect themselves from the cop, but the claim contradicts* Flux' role. Why fake claim a contradicting role.

*Not directly, but it created a lot of friction because role cop + miller makes little sense in a 15 player game

I'm not sure what you're saying. Blarg himself implied that the actual role NAME showed that they were millers, and our claim was role namecops.
 
You act like you haven't even bothered to consider our POV, why should anyone listen to what you have to say? You haven't added anything meaningful to this game at all in your non-existent critiques and ignorance.

You say that as though it were necessary. You may not agree with my playstyle, but it does not stop me from having an opinion.
 

Ty4on

Member
I'm not sure what you're saying. Blarg himself implied that the actual role NAME showed that they were millers, and our claim was role namecops.
Blawl still insisted they would show up as scum to an alignment cop:
I don't know whether Flux is telling the truth or not, but I'll just say from my limited experience in Gafia game's that premise doesn't really hold true. Having a miller does mean there is at least one alignment cop, but it doesn't preclude there also being a role cop. Granted my two large games may have been the ones that were a little....looser with roles and powers (Harry Potter and Volcano Island).

If Flux/Time can provide me and Blarg's actual name, then I think there are two cops for town, one alignment and one name. Which is good news given the...strange approach our name cop took.
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
Blawl still insisted they would show up as scum to an alignment cop:

Oh yeah, that's what Millers do. What I'm saying, though, was in response to you asking why Blarg would fake claim Miller. If they weren't actually MIllers but their role name screamed "Loveless," then a role name cop would guess that. Hence Blarg implying that that was indeed the case, and that their name would be like that "because we're millers."
 
Explain again how Flux flipping anything confirms that much.

I encouraged you to give us an alternative, but you're inflating this deal

Objectively, why lynch Timeflux or Team Zippador first and not Team BLAWL?
In pure quantitative terms, you gain more information from lynching Timeflux first than from lynching Team BLAWL first, with Team Zippador being the next best choice for lynching.

By lynching Timeflux first (5 separate pieces of information gained)
  • By flipping Timeflux's alignment, you learn whether or not Karkador x Zippedpinhead are colluding scum who pulled off this gambit to save Timeflux for another Day (besides the inherent scumminess that I find should be a reason for lynching him over us). Kark keeps saying it has to be us, Team BLAWL, or themselves, who must be lynched Today, yet pushes and pushes us with accusatory theories and yet has never been seriously placed on the defensive himself. Timeflux has recently begun to push for our lynching, in the end accepting Kark's claim as "real and only Town Tracker" to be genuine despite nothing confirming his alignment claim whatsoever, and agreeing with Kark's accusations of us in order to save their own skins Today.
  • By flipping Timeflux's alignment, you learn whether or not Splinter x Cabot are scum in collusion, since after Timeflux's D2 "confession", they are the biggest proponents and defenders of Timeflux's innocence, saying that they are just naive Townies who failed in their alleged D1 pro-Town gambit and that their D2 backdown was relatively harmless. They and Kark have been extremely chummy together, as Splint x Cabot has never attempted to really put Kark on the defensive despite being one of the most active pairs in the game, and they both support Timeflux's innocence and avoidance of a policy-lynching despite Timeflux's blatant confessed lie of being a Name Cop and their strange WIFOM requests surrounding their now-retracted claim.
  • By flipping Timeflux's alignment, you learn whether or not Blargonaut x Kawl_USC are scum in collusion with Timeflux with the whole D1 double-claim fiasco as part of some ridiculously far-fetched scum dual open Role-claim mega-gambit of unknown intent and conclusion.
  • By flipping Timeflux's alignment, you remove a WIFOM problem that will have to eventually be confronted anyway. Like us, they are a topic of debate that will not go away unless you lynch them, or, since they have not claimed to be Millers like us, if they are Investigated later (which, if the x-shot mechanic is true for any Investigator out there, is what I consider to be a waste of a non-renewable resource when a well-deserved policy lynch of unlimited use can achieve the same flip). Remember that Timeflux 'apparently ex-Role Name Cop' on D1 explicitly warned away Doctors and other power roles from visiting them at Night. They have gunned for maximum WIFOM in both their lie and in their apparent D2 confession, much moreso than anything Team BLAWL has done. Why?
  • There is greater pro-Town reward to be had by allowing both potentially Town-aligned, confirmed Trackers to collect one more round of Tracking info each this N2 and present it to you all D3. As both mutually-confirmed Trackers, this goes for both Karkador x Zippedpinhead and Blargonaut x Kawl_USC. You need tangible information and we can both provide.

COMPARED TO​

By lynching Team BLAWL first (2 separate pieces of information gained)
  • By flipping Team BLAWL first, you get rid of your inescapable Miller problem early. However, we are a confirmed Tracker power role of unknowable alignment at the very least, while you still don't know what Timeflux really is nor their own alignment at the most.
  • By flipping Team BLAWL first, you do NOT directly find out whether Karkador x Zippedpinhead and *Splinter x Cabot were in scum collusion in redirecting attention and defending Timeflux from lynching Today, respectively. You lose two leads. We have no allies in public here, and the majority votes show it. Therefore, if you lynch us first, our alignment flip will have been in a vacuum of no attachments nor any possible #scumtell or #TownConfirm leads to anyone except Team Zippador alone, who was our mutual N1 power-confirmer.

By lynching Team Zippador first (3 separate pieces of information gained)
  • By flipping Team Zippador first, you get rid of your potential secondary Town-aligned Tracker early. However, they are a confirmed Tracker power role of discoverable-by-Investigator alignment at the very least, while you still don't know what Timeflux really is nor their own alignment at the most.
  • By flipping Team Zippador first, you find out whether or not *Splinter x Cabot are scum in collusion with them over defending Timeflux from policy-lynching for another two phases.
  • By flipping Team Zippador first, you find out whether or not Timeflux are scum in collusion with them, as they along with *Splinter x Cabot have been defenders of Timeflux's innocence after their backdown from their 'Name Cop' gambit.

There have been more colluding rapport links and support conversations between FluxWaveZ x Timeaisis, Splinter x Cabot and Karkador x Zippedpinhead all in favour of lynching us, than there have been between Team BLAWL and them. While this is understandable given our relative absence Today in preparing this megapost for you all, the majority of their talk has been largely pushing for our lynch with attacks straight from Kark's POV, with very little in support of our own, even outside their circle. After all this, there has been no love lost between them.

Some of you questioned why I voted for Timeflux earlier Today. Why? It was a redirection to a litmus test. And, this is how: I propose you use the lynching of Timeflux as a gauge of alignment for Team Zippador, Team BLAWL and *Cater (*Splinter x Cabot).

Timeflux lied to you all about being a Cop, claiming it was a pro-Town gambit. Timeflux, after their apparent confession, have largely lain low Today, refraining from having any serious opinion on any of Today's matters (fake edit: but recently, it seems like Flux has come out to comment on us and Kark a bit more seriously, despite asking everyone to TURBO us like Kark was requesting). Team Zippador is saving them from a policy lynching Today through us.

If Timeflux is lynched and flips as Loveless scum, then you all know Team Zippador had likely acted in gambit against us to save them, and thus would likely be the scum-aligned Tracker they claim us to be. *Cater appears guilty by their associative support of post-D2-"confession" Timeflux, as well.​

If Timeflux is lynched and flips as Town-aligned, then it proves Team Zippador AND *Cater weren't acting in Timeflux's defense as a scummy six-some, and so gain their relative rightful Town-aligned kudos. You'll have removed the time-absorbing controversy that Timeflux is from your list of Daily topics, and we Team BLAWL, are open for policy-lynching D3 provided we survive N2 and don't turn up anything useful for you with our final Tracking meal, blasting off as the unconfirmable-alignment Millers we are.​

.
 
...
To find the real cop?

How?

I also gotta agree that Launah is playing really, really detached. ...if at all.

I'm sorry, but I just don't have the time to keep up with so many or such long-winded posts. I'm doing my best to keep up, and I'm actually commenting on things that are being said currently, but I can't go back and read the last 3 pages at this point.

Based on what I've seen in this game, ignoring what Blarg has said in the last 48 hours, I believe he is a good lynch candidate. I'm not sure what else you want.
 
I actually feel bad because sometimes I feel like I leave Gorlak hanging in the pair chat, and he's actually playing really attentively. The reason why I started commenting on Blarg being neutral is because it's a thought he had there and I thought from the context he had claimed. :(
 
I'm sorry, but I just don't have the time to keep up with so many or such long-winded posts. I'm doing my best to keep up, and I'm actually commenting on things that are being said currently, but I can't go back and read the last 3 pages at this point.

Based on what I've seen in this game, ignoring what Blarg has said in the last 48 hours, I believe he is a good lynch candidate. I'm not sure what else you want.

This is the most frustrating attempt at vote justification I've ever seen and honestly I wish your vote didn't count.

I hope the other players in the 14 voters currently against us that have voted us out have not done so because of your line of reasoning too.
 
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