Support NeoGAF

oni-link · Jul 10, 2015

Many teenage boys are tired of the sexualised depiction of women in video games, according to the finding of a new survey.

In the study of about 1,400 US youths, 47% of middle-school boys and 61% of high school boys agreed that women are treated as sex objects too often in games.

The findings, gathered by education consultant Rosalind Wiseman and games writer Ashley Burch, counter familiar assumptions that boys will voraciously consume media images of scantily clad women without a second thought.

“The video game industry seems to base much of its game and character design on a few assumptions, among them that girls don’t play big action games, boys won’t play games with strong female characters, and male players like the sexual objectification of female characters.”

According to her findings, 70% of girls and 78% of boys said it does not matter what gender the lead character is. Indeed, the lasting popularity of characters like Lara Croft, Samus Aran and Bayonetta should perhaps have hinted in this direction. And yet female protagonists remain in a minority.

“Interestingly, boys care less about playing as a male character as they age and girls care more about playing as a female one,” writes Wiseman.

Maybe it’s that, as girls get older and realise that there’s a representational imbalance in games, they seek out relatable characters in protest. Or perhaps it symbolises much deeper issues around young women, representation and identity.

The title of Wiseman’s article is “Everything you know about boys and video games is wrong”. That’s not quite true given there are enough boys – and men – who fight any suggestion of objectification in games to seemingly counter Wiseman’s survey base a hundred times.

Representation is a complex issue, though, especially within games. Here, a defensive fanbase feels as though it is constantly under attack from the wider media, which has spent the past 20 years dipping into gamer culture whenever it wants to shock readers with some technophobic tittle-tattle.

The objectification argument that will roll on and on, as it has done in regard to movies, music and comics. Wherever you have people who define themselves by the culture they consume, you have people angered by suggestions that the culture in question may not be perfect.

Source

What kind of age range are middle to high school boys in America? I couldn't find a link to the actual study but it's always worth looking at how these questions are worded. I'm suspicious of the term "agreed with"

That said I suppose this is encouraging? Though the sample group they used was still relativity small

It makes me hope the whole Gamergate thing was really a small number of people with loud voices, rather than a significant percentage of the gaming population, either way I hope those kind of views are not carried forward with the youth of today

Vincent Grayson · Jul 10, 2015

Middle school usually starts at 6th grade, which is around 11. So 11-18, I guess.

edit: and yes, GamerGate, for all its bluster and trouble-causing, is absolutely a minuscule portion of the gaming populace.

Village · Jul 10, 2015

11-14 midde
14-18 high

to answer you

A Link to the Past · Jul 10, 2015

Well really, GG is like 18-35 demo more than anything, so it's entirely possible that we're witnessing the next 18-35 demo being more about this kind of stuff.

AbandonedTrolley · Jul 10, 2015

Even teenage boys lie on surveys, survey finds.

Finale Fireworker · Jul 10, 2015

This doesn't surprise me because misogyny and contempt for women went rapidly out of fashion; virtually every medium, both entertainment and regular business venues, have made adjustments to favor and promote a healthier way of thinking.

The passive zeitgeist has changed in America. Prejudice is moving out, especially among the youth.

It will always be there, in certain places, but when it comes to the collective views of the populace there is no place for sexism any longer.

Bring on equality.

It makes me hope the whole Gamergate thing was really a small number of people with loud voices, rather than a significant percentage of the gaming population, either way I hope those kind of views are not carried forward with the youth of today

This was always true. When even 4chan bans GG, you know you have an unpopular movement.

EDIT from below:

I am upset that so much of this thread is people saying that the sample group is either lying or that the survey had to be conducted improperly.

Because it means you guys can't believe that high school boys aren't sexist. It means you are more accepting of the idea that high school boys are sexists than the idea that they're progressive and inclusive.

And that is terrible, reductive, and depressing.

Deft Beck · Jul 10, 2015

AbandonedTrolley said:
Even teenage boys lie on surveys, survey finds.

What incentive do they have to lie?

kurahador · Jul 10, 2015

I wonder what games they played.

LordJim · Jul 10, 2015

" gathered by education consultant Rosalind Wiseman and games writer Ashley Burch"
With other articles mentioned written by Wiseman.
Eh, whatever.
No need to apply academic standards to every survey

jeemer · Jul 10, 2015

AbandonedTrolley said:
Even teenage boys lie on surveys, survey finds.

yeah i was just about to say, if this survey was conducted by a woman potentially asking teenage boys a leading closed question along the lines of "do you think it's bad that women are treated as sex objects in videogames?"

"...uhhhhhh... yes?"

Deft Beck said:
What incentive do they have to lie?

i'm gay, but i'm imagining a lot of hormonal teenage boys who are asked questions along those lines are thinking "uhhh, no. sideboob is freaking awesome" and don't want to admit it to an adult, nevermind a female adult.

StayDead · Jul 10, 2015

AbandonedTrolley said:
Even teenage boys lie on surveys, survey finds.

I'm not really sure many young men see depictions of people in fantasy harmful to people in reality, but I think it entirely depends on the person and the setting and what have you. If people judge real people based off of depictions of something in fiction then I think they're more the ones with the problem. I think people need to learn to seperate fantasy from reality more.

In regards to this topic though I don't see it at all surprising young men could think that depictions are harmful. It's the sort of thing being talked about a hell of a lot at the minute.

Garrett Hawke · Jul 10, 2015

jeemer said:
yeah i was just about to say, if this survey was conducted by a woman potentially asking teenage boys a leading closed question along the lines of "do you think it's bad that women are treated as sex objects in videogames?"

"...uhhhhhh... yes?"

Or the survey could've been conducted by a piece of paper and people wrote down how they truly felt because sexism is a learned behaviour which they hopefully didn't learn

napata · Jul 10, 2015

Deft Beck said:
What incentive do they have to lie?

Social desirability

Finale Fireworker · Jul 10, 2015

napata said:
Social desirability

Why assume that teenage boys are eager to lie? Or are more inclined to lie than tell the truth?

I mean, I find most high school boys to be awful and irritating, but unrestricted expression seems to be pretty characteristic of the demo.

Luigiv · Jul 10, 2015

Deft Beck said:
What incentive do they have to lie?

To make themselves sound more progressive than they really are. Saying what they think they should say to be popular with their peers not what they really think. Even if the survey is anonymous, people still do this.

Not saying this is the case but I believe this is what AbandonnedTrolley was trying to get at.

Edit:

napata said:
Social desirability

That was the term I was looking for.

Triggerhappytel · Jul 10, 2015

I still don't really understand GamerGate. The people in favour of the movement are against feminism, right?

SolidSnakex · Jul 10, 2015

Isn't this just the GDC report that was discussed a few months ago or is this a new report?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1028416

Deft Beck · Jul 10, 2015

Luigiv said:
To make themselves sound more progressive than they really are. Saying what they think they should say to be popular with their peers not what they really think. Even if the survey is anonymous, people still do this.

Not saying this is the case but I believe this is what AbandonnedTrolley was trying to get at.

What group of teenage boys judge each other by their attitudes towards sexism?

What do they really think, then?

napata · Jul 10, 2015

Finale Fireworker said:
Why assume that teenage boys are eager to lie? Or are more inclined to lie than tell the truth?

I don't need to assume anything. Surveys, even anonymous ones, are affected by social desirability bias. I don't even think this happens consciously.

SerTapTap · Jul 10, 2015

It makes me hope the whole Gamergate thing was really a small number of people with loud voices, rather than a significant percentage of the gaming population

This was always clear and people acting like it wasn't the case were either GGers or incredibly self defeating/ignorant anti-GGers.

geordiemp · Jul 10, 2015

AbandonedTrolley said:
Even teenage boys lie on surveys, survey finds.

Yup, motive is they will give the politically correct answer in certain social environments (school + adult).

I wonder if the survey would be different if conducted by their mates after school...?

When I was a shy school kid and someone asked me do I find a girl sexy I would say no....but I was not 100 % truthful !

Garrett Hawke · Jul 10, 2015

Deft Beck said:
What group of teenage boys judge each other by their attitudes towards sexism?

What do they really think, then?

They actually think the titty is great and the titty should be out at all times because they are Real Men.

Piers · Jul 10, 2015

Finale Fireworker said:
Why assume that teenage boys are eager to lie? Or are more inclined to lie than tell the truth?

I mean, I find most high school boys to be awful and irritating, but unrestricted expression seems to be pretty characteristic of the demo.

They don't want to look stupid, more or less particularly in regards to public exposure.

GoldenCrow · Jul 10, 2015

Not surprised to be honest, it isn't as bad is it use to be and I think sexism has a place in storytelling as all themes do but generally in computer games the sexism is pointless and unnecessary. I noticed it as a teenager so I'm not surprissed that teenagers are aware of such especially as kids these days are more socially aware and live in a world of twitter and internet media hyperbole.

Palette Swap · Jul 10, 2015

AbandonedTrolley said:
Even teenage boys lie on surveys, survey finds.

That's a really dull version of Ockham's Razor.

Luigiv · Jul 10, 2015

Deft Beck said:
What group of teenage boys judge each other by their attitudes towards sexism?

What do they really think, then?

Well in this case "peers" would be the adults that are actually reading the survey papers and collecting the data, not their friends.

Plinko · Jul 10, 2015

Good to hear. The teenagers I teach generally speak negatively about it as well.

danmaku · Jul 10, 2015

Bayonetta is now "popular"...?? Since when?

jeemer · Jul 10, 2015

Garrett Hawke said:
Or the survey could've been conducted by a piece of paper and people wrote down how they truly felt because sexism is a learned behaviour which they hopefully didn't learn

this is absolutely possible, and hey let's hope it is the case for even some of those kids.

however, do you really think that the majority of hormonal straight teens concern themselves with the negative ramifications of sexism with regard to scantily clad females portrayed in gaming? Or just taking the opportunity to get a guilt-free look at digital boobs with jiggle physics at home, while po-facedly answering "no that's wrong" in a survey?

crimzonflame · Jul 10, 2015

How many teenage boys are playing Metroid and Bayonetta?

Snarfington · Jul 10, 2015

The problem with surveying teenagers on this stuff is that it's really easy to make them feel like they have to answer a certain way, even if the question doesn't, at first, seem particularly loaded. Even asking "do you agree that women are treated as sex objects too much in games?" at that age can make them feel pressured to answer yes.

I'm not saying the survey isn't right, and I'm DEFINITELY not saying that sexist depictions aren't a problem in gaming, but it's something to keep in mind on this particular bit of data.

Garrett Hawke · Jul 10, 2015

jeemer said:
this is absolutely possible, and hey let's hope it is the case for even some of those kids.

however, do you really think that the majority of hormonal straight teens concern themselves with the negative ramifications of sexism with regard to scantily clad females portrayed in gaming? Or just taking the opportunity to get a guilt-free look at digital boobs with jiggle physics at home, while po-facedly answering "no that's wrong" in a survey?

Yes, I would hope so. They can enjoy something while recognising that it is problematic.

Also I'd hope they'd be able to understand that there is a time and a place for sexuality and that enjoying the female form shouldn't necessarily manifest itself as being okay with boob armour in a zombie apocalypse setting.

danwarb · Jul 10, 2015

Everything is an object in a video game, but also most lead characters are male, and violence is the only way to interact in most big games

Best solutions to real problems are critical thinking, politics speak and psychology of advertising classes early on at school. Give people knowledge to defend themselves.

spekkeh · Jul 10, 2015

I fear the consultants, even when they say what I want to hear. No peer reviewed article, no method description, no dice.

Finale Fireworker · Jul 10, 2015

Piers said:
They don't want to look stupid, more or less particularly in regards to public exposure.

I think it takes an especially cynical lens to maintain the suspicion that the overwhelming majority of people taking surveys are lying on them.

In my own experience, teenagers really like to be asked what they think. Expression is empowering. I see no plausible reality where an entire sample group would decide to lie and only choose the answers they think will impress unknown compilers of said answers.

This scenario means that teenage boys are aware of what is sexist and what is not sexist. But they are all just pretending to not be sexist, so they tell people sexism is bad when really they are actually sexist and don't want anyone to know. I cannot believe this is possible.

In this reality, no survey ever is accurate because people only choose answers they think the conductors are looking for. Which is certainly not our reality. I can't think of any example in the history of data collecting where surveyed data ended up being an unusable falsehood not indicative of the sample group.

JimmyRustler · Jul 10, 2015

Isn't sexism generally less spread among teenager then among grown ups? From what I can remember that was never a topic when I was that age. Playing with female characters wasn't very unusual in the days (RE, Dino Crisis etc.).

Regginator · Jul 10, 2015

Deft Beck said:
What incentive do they have to lie?

Maybe they don't want to be seen as perverts of something or maybe they're still ashamed/awkward of sex stuff (not too unlikely for young teenagers). Just talking out loud here.

jeemer said:
yeah i was just about to say, if this survey was conducted by a woman potentially asking teenage boys a leading closed question along the lines of "do you think it's bad that women are treated as sex objects in videogames?"

"...uhhhhhh... yes?"

That would be a terrible way of conducting a research though. The first thing you learn at school regarding research is not to ask subjective and suggestive questions (e.g. "don't you think that...?").

Rabid-Coot · Jul 10, 2015

Deft Beck said:
What incentive do they have to lie?

There's alot of paid surveys out there sometimes a few lies are a way to get to the end instead of being screened out.

Piers · Jul 10, 2015

Finale Fireworker said:
In this reality, no survey ever is accurate because people only choose answers they think the conductors are looking for. Which is certainly not our reality. I can't think of any example in the history of data collecting where surveyed data ended up being an unusable falsehood not indicative of the sample group.

Penis size average by nation.

Scientist Supreme! · Jul 10, 2015

Regardless of whether the kids were truthful, I think the sample size is too small to be really meaningful. imo

Net_Wrecker · Jul 10, 2015

danmaku said:
Bayonetta is now "popular"...?? Since when?

Bayonetta got 2 games and an anime movie in the last 5 years, breh, fall back.

Samus somewhere collecting unemployment checks. Shouldn't even be in this article tbh.

jeemer · Jul 10, 2015

Regginator said:
That would be a terrible way of conducting a research though. The first thing you learn at school regarding research is not to ask subjective and suggestive questions (e.g. "don't you think that...?").

It really would, but do you doubt that there are survey results kicking around taken by people who had no clue what they were doing?

Or more nefarious, surveys designed to end up with results that give a good article title that will get lots of clicks? As someone else mentioned, there is no mention of testing methods or peer review etc.

BjornTheBear · Jul 10, 2015

Dont's like sexist videogames? Don't buy them.
If really aren't a lot of people wanting them, they'll naturally die.

Simple as that.

Finale Fireworker · Jul 10, 2015

Piers said:
Penis size average by nation.

Then why do all the penis size statistics, and why does all the available data, indicate that the average penis size is almost a full inch smaller than the normalized six-inch estimate?

You're saying that the men participating in this data collection are saying their penises are all smaller than their perceived sense of normal?

Edit: Or do you mean that, the fact penis size supposedly differs from nation to nation, people are obviously lying somewhere because it should be uniform across the human race?

frequency · Jul 10, 2015

Where do you people come from that you would have teenage boys lying on an anonymous survey because they're afraid they won't seem socially progressive?

Because if Bobby ticked the "BOOBS" checkbox, anonymously, all his friends would be like, "Bobby, you're gross. I know you ticked that checkbox. It's totally your writing. Get out of here. You're not our friend anymore. We're a socially progressive group."

Garrett Hawke · Jul 10, 2015

Piers said:
Penis size average by nation.

That's different, as you're asking people to tell you the physical measurement of something that is quantifiable. To get a proper reading you would definitely want to actually measure it.

This is an opinion poll, and obviously opinions are intangible, but these polls are often accurate (such as political polls).

jeemer · Jul 10, 2015

Finale Fireworker said:
You're saying that the men participating in this data collection are saying their penises are all smaller than their perceived sense of normal?

Surely at least some of these particular surveys would involve actual measuring, since it is a physical attribute as opposed to an intangible personal opinion. (I think he was joking)

danwarb · Jul 10, 2015

TheExorzist said:
Isn't sexism generally less spread among teenager then among grown ups? From what I can remember that was never a topic when I was that age. Playing with female characters wasn't very unusual in the days (RE, Dino Crisis etc.).

If you only play shooters and Sports games (biggest sellers) you won't run into many playable female characters. There have always been many in action adventure, P&C, RPGs and whatnot.

Bony Manifesto · Jul 10, 2015

spekkeh said:
I fear the consultants, even when they say what I want to hear. No peer reviewed article, no method description, no dice.

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree. If you're just editorialising, then fair enough - say what you want and I'll choose to agree or not - but you can't just use data as seasoning. As soon as you move away from hand-picked quotes and towards the hard numbers of 'studies' and 'surveys', you've got a responsibility to show the methodology of how this data was collected.

Spukc · Jul 10, 2015

When i was around 14 i would only think of BEWBZ ..
It's called puberty and there is nothing wrong with being interested in the opposite or same sex.
and companies like to use this..

SEX SELLS
deal with it

Support NeoGAF

Even teenage boys are sick of sexist video games, survey finds

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Gold Member

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

always chasing the next thrill

Similar threads