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[Riposte]

The contents of the study (disregarding any issues with the methodology) and the controversial title doesn't match up all too cleanly. A rough half thinking "women are treated as sex objects too often in games" can mean the other half doesn't and the half that does doesn't necessarily dislike those "sex object" qualities, just that there are too many. There's enough space to make it say whatever you like, beyond the usual vagueness.

I want to say this has been posted before.

 

[Yoshi]

This isn't a loaded question, but can anyone point to the blatantly sexualized characters this generation?

Aside from some weird exceptions, like Quiet and some fighting game ladies who have always looked that way, I feel like overall things have gotten much better, that there is much less to take offense from and thus the worst cases stand out even more by contrast.

Off the top of my head I can only name Fire Emblem Fates with that boob-witch and Hyrule Warriors with that boob-witch (incidentially ), but there are loads of sexualised girls in various PS Vita games.

 

[SomTervo]

This is the same study that was posted a few months ago. That's a bit irritating, but fair enough if OP didn't see it. There's a lot more information about the study in that other thread.

It seemed sort of legit, but IIRC the questions were fairly leading. The sample size was good though, like 1,100+ respondents.

I doubt sexualisation is a learnt behaviour. I seriously doubt that. In fact, I think the other way around, not sexualising people is a learnt behaviour, because the sex drive is a rather natural thing.

That being said, I assume most people would find stuff like the Fire Emblem ass&boobs-shots irritating for instance, so even a high number of people saying there is too much is not too surprising. If it is a bad idea, economically speaking, to sexualise in such a way is a completely different question though.

Sexualisation and sexism are not the same thing. You seem to have a very loose grasp on these terms and concepts.

However, you're right about the 'learned' aspect. I don't think the person you responded to has a very good grasp of feminism, either. There's a lot of feminist theory (especially second wave) which agrees that inherent human biology, and hence the easiest behaviour, is sexist. Ever since it was biologically possible for women to be raped, to be weakened by periods or pregnancy, or to have generally lesser muscle mass than men, there has been sexism, because the male/female biological dichotomy is inherently sexist for humans. Women are literally the 'weaker' of the sexes. This concept is accepted in feminism.

Yet human society and civilisation is a thing of creativity. Two thousand years ago it would be okay to kill your wife if she wanted a divorce. We applied creative thought and agreed that this isn't okay for human beings, and we adapted culture. Nowadays, things are hugely better, but sexual objectification in media still sets mindsets and opinions back to the base 'women are baby producers' thought process, which is the biological, damaging one which has led to women getting the short straw for millenia. So we need to be creative as a society and wean the biological default mindset out of everyone we can, because it leads to problematic behaviours, attitudes and beliefs. Eg abuse towards women, victim blaming, slut shaming etc. These behaviours all come from a biologically inherent mindset – and this is what sexual objectification in games leads to. Female characters being subject to constant boob shots and panty shots lowers your expectations of them to the lowest-common-denominator: biology.

Sorry for the rant, I know you broadly agree with me! I hope others can get some insight out of this post.

Wow, bunch of real dirtbags/cynical types in this thread apparently.

I'm 22 years of age, I grew up wanting women to be fairly represented in games. I see boys nowadays who hang out much more often with girls in social settings rather than in their own "boys club", and that's a good thing. It means people aren't scared about seeing what the other side of the fence is like once in a while. It also means there is less of a clashing of opinion and understanding when both sides have a better view of the other's rationale and thoughts.

All media needs to stop pandering to the lowest common denominator. We're actively avoiding a solution to a problem that has existed for a very long time, all because of fear that short-term profits and gains are to be lost.

Damn straight.

 

[igor]

Off the top of my head I can only name Fire Emblem Fates with that boob-witch and Hyrule Warriors with that boob-witch (incidentially ), but there are loads of sexualised girls in various PS Vita games.

Which are all, unfortunately, Japanese games. And the only way the Western gamers can do something about it is simply not buy these games. I think if there's anything to be done first is try to improve the representation in the western games and lead by example.

 

[Ran rp]

Wow, bunch of real dirtbags/cynical types in this thread apparently.

I'm 22 years of age, I grew up wanting women to be fairly represented in games. I see boys nowadays who hang out much more often with girls in social settings rather than in their own "boys club", and that's a good thing. It means people aren't scared about seeing what the other side of the fence is like once in a while. It also means there is less of a clashing of opinion and understanding when both sides have a better view of the other's rationale and thoughts.

this be me

 

[MrDoctor]

I am upset that so much of this thread is people saying that the sample group is either lying or that the survey had to be conducted improperly.

Because it means you guys can't believe that high school boys aren't sexist. It means you are more accepting of the idea that high school boys are sexists than the idea that they're progressive and inclusive.

And that is terrible, reductive, and depressing.

One thing that often seems to be misunderstood in these types of discussions is that you can love sex and sexed up women while simultaneously being a proponent of stronger representations of females in fiction. Liking boobs does not mean I'm harmed by the opposite gender -- or, fuck, anyone --- making arguments about they'd like to see. I respect women and want girls I know to see characters that are more than their attractiveness. There's more to the discussion than a black and white "misogynist vs puritan" argument. We can have a courageous Indiana Jones-style archaeologist. We can have big boobed warriors who are proud of who they are. There's a lot diversity in our world with people who have different interests. The more inclusive a medium becomes the better it is for everyone. Is anyone going to say that Tomb Raider and Metroid have been a detriment to gaming?

 

[Yoshi]

Sexualisation and sexism are not the same thing. You seem to have a very loose grasp on these terms and concepts.

Actually I was replying to his post because I think that sexism has nothing to do with the content of the study cited here and that it is about sexualisation instead. But maybe I do misunderstand the terms. I'd define them as follows:
- sexism: Putting a huge emphasis on a person's sex when valuating the person, potentially leading to treating people of a certain sex worse, having worse / better opinions of people just based on their sex, demanding less rights for one sex or more rights for the other sex, calling one sex morally better or more capable in general, discriminating people of a given sex.
- sexualisation: Reducing people to sexual stimuli, for instance judging a girl only on their body shape / breasts / whatever. In presentation of fictional media heavily emphasizing the primary or secondary sex characteristics sometimes including also sensual language or tone.

Yet human society and civilisation is a thing of creativity. Two thousand years ago it would be okay to kill your wife if she wanted a divorce. We applied creative thought and agreed that this isn't okay for human beings, and we adapted culture. Nowadays, things are hugely better, but sexual objectification in media still sets mindsets and opinions back to the base 'women are baby producers' thought process, which is the biological, damaging one which has led to women getting the short straw for millenia. So we need to be creative as a society and wean the biological default mindset out of everyone we can, because it leads to problematic behaviours, attitudes and beliefs. Eg abuse towards women, victim blaming, slut shaming etc. These behaviours all come from a biologically inherent mindset – and this is what sexual objectification in games leads to. Female characters being subject to constant boob shots and panty shots lowers your expectations of them to the lowest-common-denominator: biology.

This however, is not specific to sexulisation in games, and if you want to prohibit this, porn certainly is a very related problem and it would be inconsequential if you were to complain about sexualisation in games for this reason and watch porn at the same time. However there can also be different reasons to be against sexualisation, for instance not wanting to deal with the topic while playing games.

 

[Hubb]

Wow, bunch of real dirtbags/cynical types in this thread apparently.

I'm 22 years of age, I grew up wanting women to be fairly represented in games. I see boys nowadays who hang out much more often with girls in social settings rather than in their own "boys club", and that's a good thing. It means people aren't scared about seeing what the other side of the fence is like once in a while. It also means there is less of a clashing of opinion and understanding when both sides have a better view of the other's rationale and thoughts.

All media needs to stop pandering to the lowest common denominator. We're actively avoiding a solution to a problem that has existed for a very long time, all because of fear that short-term profits and gains are to be lost.

I don't know, I am older than you and once I got out of the girls had cooties age range my friends were pretty much equally split. I'm sure in every generation or whatever you want to call it there will be socially awkward boys and girls who only hang out with the same sex. I can't believe someone who is only 22 is talking about "kids these days".

As far as the media pandering to the lowest common denominator, well we are what we are. Sex, intrigue, mystery, and murder to me it isn't about if it is done but how well it is.

But yes, I am a dirt bag.

 

[Always-honest]

I think it would be nice if we could choose between male or female character in a game, if possible.
But most players were and probably still are guys i think.

Ofcourse this is not even bringing up how women look in some games. Some are just disrespectful.

 

[Yoshi]

Which are all, unfortunately, Japanese games. And the only way the Western gamers can do something about it is simply not buy these games. I think if there's anything to be done first is try to improve the representation in the western games and lead by example.

Since 90% of the games I play and am interested in are Japanese, I wouldn't really know for western games. That my list is Japan-centric can definitely be a consequence of my gaming preferences being Japan-centric. The western game makers I love don't make sexualised games though (Ubisoft Montpellier, Ubisoft Montreal, Rare, Rocksteady).

 

[The Technomancer]

The disconnect between people trying to actually engage with the data (even to argue against it) and the people just popping in to say "doesn't matter sex sells nothing is going to change deal with it lalalalala!!" is striking

 

[Hubb]

The disconnect between people trying to actually engage with the data (even to argue against it) and the people just popping in to say "doesn't matter sex sells nothing is going to change deal with it lalalalala!!" is striking

I'm pretty sure there is only 1 post before yours that says exactly what you are saying. I too am surprised there aren't more of those, though I don't think that is what you meant to say.

 

[Yoshi]

Having read the citations in the other thread, I'd say that the people who conducted the study, or at least those that presented it, are not fit for doing such studies, because they seem to have really strong preformed opinions on this topic and are presenting this to their subjects, especially the emotional description of the CoD presentation makes it clear to me that the people involved run at a serious risk to ruin any data by making certain opinions opportune.

 

[The Technomancer]

I'm pretty sure there is only 1 post before yours that says exactly what you are saying. I too am surprised there aren't more of those, though I don't think that is what you meant to say.

No there have been several posts basically saying "sexism isn't a problem anyway" in various ways, although I picked the one that was the most...exaggerated.

 

[Hubb]

No there have been several posts basically saying "sexism isn't a problem anyway" in various ways, although I picked the one that was the most...exaggerated.

Ah, "doesn't matter sex sells nothing is going to change deal with it lalalalala!!" is the same as saying sexism isn't a problem anyway.

I get what you are saying, but I don't think it is anywhere near as bad as your post tries to make it out as. Instead of dismissing them why not try to engage them.

 

[zelas]

How does this survey compare data of most publisher's?

 

[The Technomancer]

How does this survey compare data of most publisher's?

I suspect very different. There are problems with the data of this survey, but publisher surveys are probably biased in the other direction, to reassure them that they're already doing the right thing from a market perspective. Like, I doubt they're asking about sexualization and sexism in neutral terms either (or at all) or that the implicit conclusions they draw from unrelated questions are accurate

Does anyone have any actual publisher survey data related to these sort of preferences?

 

[SomTervo]

Actually I was replying to his post because I think that sexism has nothing to do with the content of the study cited here and that it is about sexualisation instead. But maybe I do misunderstand the terms. I'd define them as follows:
- sexism: Putting a huge emphasis on a person's sex when valuating the person, potentially leading to treating people of a certain sex worse, having worse / better opinions of people just based on their sex, demanding less rights for one sex or more rights for the other sex, calling one sex morally better or more capable in general, discriminating people of a given sex.
- sexualisation: Reducing people to sexual stimuli, for instance judging a girl only on their body shape / breasts / whatever. In presentation of fictional media heavily emphasizing the primary or secondary sex characteristics sometimes including also sensual language or tone.

Sexism has a lot to do with the study. I'll refer to that in my reply to the second part of your post, though.

Just to make things easier , I'll clarify exactly what sexism means. Your definition is well thought-out, but not right, and it'll be easier to just define it.

Sexism isn't about what you emphasise in regarding a person. Sexism is prejudice. It's usually unintentional or even unconscious (in the vast majority of cases it is an 'automatic' behaviour). It is a structural pattern of behaviour, by that I mean it's woven into a culture's DNA. For example, the idea that 'girls shouldn't sleep around' – which is plain wrong, but is a core belief of countless human civilisations for thousands of years. Nobody in such cultures questions it. Most of them aren't even aware of the thoughts.It's a prejudice – thinking 'this is just the way things are'. It's a belief which is not based on reason or reality. It includes, but isn't solely, misogyny, which is genuine, active disdain for women. Sexism is broadly a very passive aspect of a society.

Your definition of sexualisation is correct. But it's a metonym of 'sexism'. That is, it's possible to have a sexist culture which doesn't sexualise women at all. Sexualisation can be a positive thing. In certain contexts - eg unnecessary panty shots and poorly written, yet buxom female characters - it's clearly a symptom of structural sexism.

This however, is not specific to sexulisation in games, and if you want to prohibit this, porn certainly is a very related problem and it would be inconsequential if you were to complain about sexualisation in games for this reason and watch porn at the same time. However there can also be different reasons to be against sexualisation, for instance not wanting to deal with the topic while playing games.

Sexism ties into this topic because sexualisation - as you define it - often causes sexism in a culture. Right now, videogames are being squeezed further and further into a corner where they're the least representative artistic medium in terms of men/women. Men are probably 65+% of the characters, and women are, 8 times out of 10, overly sexualised.

And those made up stats are a symptom of a sexist culture. In a sexist culture which favours men, men will obviously occur more in works of art, and when women do occur, they will be represented more poorly (overly sexualised, underwritten

These kids are speaking out against the structurally sexist western videogame culture, saying 'we don't want there to be more men, and we don't want women to be overly sexualised'. Both of these facts are a symptom of a structurally sexist industry.

(I'm speaking in broad generalisations and with big words here, but I don't feel that strongly about it. I broadly agree with you and I think things are getting better and better in videogames.)

The pornography thing is a separate topic. And it's entirely possible to have porn, and a porn industry, which is 100% not-sexist. There are plenty of porn production companies out there who are trying to create pornography which is enjoyable for women as well as men, and are trying to treat their male and female employees/actors equally.

Anyway. That's off-topic imo.

Edit: FYI I'm watching 2-3 anime series right now and playing Persona 3 and God Hand, and the sexual objectification in all of this Japanese media is disgusting. Except perhaps God Hand, which objectifies people of all shapes, sexes, genders and colours. Simultaneously I'm watching two Western cartoon series and playing a few Western games (eg The Witcher 3, Batman, Prototype 2), and they have, by comparison, almost no objectification/sexualisation. They are utterly even handed and feminist in comparison to the Japanese output. Japan has a problem, I think - I've watched a couple of documentaries about it, too, and it's staggering how many problems with sex and sexuality they have.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Which are all, unfortunately, Japanese games. And the only way the Western gamers can do something about it is simply not buy these games. I think if there's anything to be done first is try to improve the representation in the western games and lead by example.

But then I think you're getting into an area where you're suggesting that those types of characters simply shouldn't exist in games. Isn't the goal variety rather than eliminating a certain type of character? There's now a ton of variety in both female and male characters.

I suspect very different. There are problems with the data of this survey, but publisher surveys are probably biased in the other direction, to reassure them that they're already doing the right thing from a market perspective. Like, I doubt they're asking about sexualization and sexism in neutral terms either (or at all) or that the implicit conclusions they draw from unrelated questions are accurate

Does anyone have any actual publisher survey data related to these sort of preferences?

I don't think publishers ever release that type of data. It's internal just like the data they have that backs up their view that games with female leads sell less than those with male leads.

 

[Captain Smoker]

The disconnect between people trying to actually engage with the data (even to argue against it) and the people just popping in to say "doesn't matter sex sells nothing is going to change deal with it lalalalala!!" is striking

And it's always going to be like this, sex is in our nature and it's one of the largest parts of our human nature.

It doesn't matter if you are woman or man. Going by a lot of books and professional opinions, woman have far more "sexual energy" than man and they like to feel sexy, it's in their nature.
They just don't or can't express this in most societies because current society (and a lot of men) tend to see this as "bitchy behaviour" and other badmouthing.*

You won't see a lot of woman complaining about naked Channing Tatum in Magic Mike and why should they, the guy looks good,it's not like you don't like to see beautiful woman, hell,
a lot of woman like to look at beautiful woman.*


*I understand that there can be a lot of different opinions about this topic due to knowledge, your own point of view, experience, etc. It's what I read and experienced.



But what are we arguing about?

"Sexism or gender discrimination is prejudice or discrimination based on a person's sex or gender." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexism

Are you discriminating women if you show a good looking blonde, bikini girl in a movie? Well, there are in fact a lot of beautiful bikini girls out there, wouldn't it be disciminating not to show them just because she looks good?

Or because it invokes certain thoughts in men?
Does it really invoke these thoughts in every men?
Aren't real-life-experiences far more important anyway?

Do you feel discriminated because most male models look good?

Maybe most people just like to look at beautiful people?


Like every other topic, there are a hundrets of opinions and if we treat everyone as equal, what's the truth?


That's why I don't care that much about this topic, most sexy woman in television are sexy because it sells and people like to look at good looking people (just like sexy man models) and most stuff is just exaggarated (see anime-boobs), I wouldn't take this too seriously anyway.

As long as this isn't deliberately done to discriminate women or men because of their gender, it's ok.


Edit: Saying all this, I think it's still great that we see far more "real-life-representations" of women (and men) in gaming, because it's something fresh in this industry and fans who like this have the "right" to experience such characters.

 

[IcyEyes]

Can someone give me a list of at least 3 or more games that *clearly* depict women in sexist way ?

(it's a serious question, not meant to be anything else!)

 

[djshauny]

Absoloute rubbish.

If the devs want tits and ass then deal with it.

Its videogames.

Jesus christ.

 

[manfestival]

I feel like this whole thing is contrived. I mean, in middle school everyone I knew could care less about these sort of issues. Just seems like its something that has been hammered into their minds so now they claim one thing in order to gain social acceptance. Now I can only speak in anecdotal terms and that is how I am going to leave it.

 

[Kathian]

That's because their more modern. Most games target the 25+ male demo with this stuff (hence the growth in father daughter relationships where the daughter basically becomes the father).

 

[The Technomancer]

Can someone give me a list of at least 3 or more games that *clearly* depict women in sexist way ?

(it's a serious question, not meant to be anything else!)

Off the top of my head, and this is just stuff I've personally played
-Arkham City had some real nasty stuff around Harley and Catwoman that turned me off (that people tried to justify because "well they're criminals you expect them to be nice?" ignoring that Batman took part in quite a bit of shit as well)
-Fire Emblem Awakening is another recent example of "unexplainable skimpy battlefield armor because reasons" that pops up in a lot of Japanese games and I would argue does jump from sexualization to sexism because of the double standard applied between male and female characters
-Dragon Age (and a lot of "fantasy" games in general) do that awful "sexually abused women as a motivator for the protagonist" thing

Notice that all of these can, and usually are, explained away as "making sense in the world of the game". But you can make anything make sense in the world of a game. Those things exist because the game's creators want to, they could just as easily have made worlds where that didn't make sense

 

[oni-link]

Absoloute rubbish.

If the devs want tits and ass then deal with it.

Its videogames.

Jesus christ.

The devs want to make good games that sell well so they make a good living, that is all they want

It always surprises me when someone signs up to an enthusiast games forum to simply dismiss games as "just video games"

 

[Skux]

Even teenage boys lie on surveys, survey finds.

Pretty much. Of course a kid is going to answer what he thinks is the most morally and politically correct answer.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

It always surprises me when someone signs up to a enthusiast games forum to simply dismiss games as "just video games"

"You nerds want to discuss matters related to video games? Psh.



yeah, I waited 6 months for my account approval and post every day. so what"

 

[Yoshi]

Sexism has a lot to do with the study. I'll refer to that in my reply to the second part of your post, though.

Just to make things easier , I'll clarify exactly what sexism means. Your definition is well thought-out, but not right, and it'll be easier to just define it.

Sexism isn't about what you emphasise in regarding a person. Sexism is prejudice. It's usually unintentional or even unconscious (in the vast majority of cases it is an 'automatic' behaviour). It is a structural pattern of behaviour, by that I mean it's woven into a culture's DNA. For example, the idea that 'girls shouldn't sleep around' – which is plain wrong, but is a core belief of countless human civilisations for thousands of years. Nobody in such cultures questions it. Most of them aren't even aware of the thoughts.It's a prejudice – thinking 'this is just the way things are'. It's a belief which is not based on reason or reality. It includes, but isn't solely, misogyny, which is genuine, active disdain for women. Sexism is broadly a very passive aspect of a society.

So basically you'd define sexism as strictly the unconscious shape of what I'd have defined sexism as? The "emphasising" I was talking about was not intended to state if it is intentional or not. Maybe I'm overlooking something, but I think our definitions are rather close to each other, but it could also be possible that I just did not phrase it properly, because I get the impression you think I wanted to state sexism must always be a conscious choice.

Your definition of sexualisation is correct. But it's a metonym of 'sexism'. That is, it's possible to have a sexist culture which doesn't sexualise women at all. Sexualisation can be a positive thing. In certain contexts - eg unnecessary panty shots and poorly written, yet buxom female characters - it's clearly a symptom of structural sexism.

We completely agree here. Though I'd not be as strict with the "pervy, bad written" type of story, because I think it can be a symptom of sexism (and in reality most of the time probably is) but need not be and can just as well also just be pandering to certain fantasies or sexual role models of a given target demography.

Sexism ties into this topic because sexualisation - as you define it - often causes sexism in a culture. Right now, videogames are being squeezed further and further into a corner where they're the least representative artistic medium in terms of men/women. Men are probably 65+% of the characters, and women are, 8 times out of 10, overly sexualised.

And those made up stats are a symptom of a sexist culture. In a sexist culture which favours men, men will obviously occur more in works of art, and when women do occur, they will be represented more poorly (overly sexualised, underwritten

Other than the numbers, which you call made up yourself anyway, we are in agreement.

The pornography thing is a separate topic. And it's entirely possible to have porn, and a porn industry, which is 100% not-sexist. There are plenty of porn production companies out there who are trying to create pornography which is enjoyable for women as well as men, and are trying to treat their male and female employees/actors equally.

Yes, there can be, though in reality porn is most of the time advertised with candidly clad women with unnatural proportions and the focus is on them as sex-objects. I can't speak for the actual products themselves, maybe the porn advertisment on the web is unfair towards the actual porn, but my impression is that porn seems to be very sexist in a similar sense as you would call the one-sidedness of the sexualisation in games sexist.

Anyway. That's off-topic imo.

I disagree, I think an exact description of the problem is very much on-topic.

Edit: FYI I'm watching 2-3 anime series right now and playing Persona 3 and God Hand, and the sexual objectification in all of this Japanese media is disgusting. Except perhaps God Hand, which objectifies people of all shapes, sexes, genders and colours. Simultaneously I'm watching two Western cartoon series and playing a few Western games (eg The Witcher 3, Batman, Prototype 2), and they have, by comparison, almost no objectification/sexualisation. They are utterly even handed and feminist in comparison to the Japanese output. Japan has a problem, I think - I've watched a couple of documentaries about it, too, and it's staggering how many problems with sex and sexuality they have.

Luckily, the same cannot be said about games from Japan in general, because outside of Fire Emblem, Nintendo games for instance are almost free of sexualisation.

 

[IcyEyes]

Off the top of my head, and this is just stuff I've personally played
-Arkham City had some real nasty stuff around Harley and Catwoman that turned me off (that people tried to justify because "well they're criminals you expect them to be nice?" ignoring that Batman took part in quite a bit of shit as well)
-Fire Emblem Awakening is another recent example of "unexplainable skimpy battlefield armor because reasons" that pops up in a lot of Japanese games and I would argue does jump from sexualization to sexism because of the double standard applied between male and female characters
-Dragon Age (and a lot of "fantasy" games in general) do that awful "sexually abused women as a motivator for the protagonist" thing

Notice that all of these can, and usually are, explained away as "making sense in the world of the game". But you can make anything make sense in the world of a game. Those things exist because the game's creators want to, they could just as easily have made worlds where that didn't make sense

Thanks for the reply (with your personal motivation too!), much appreciated!

 

[Coffee Dog]

This really shouldn't be surprising to anyone who has been paying attention to recent game announcements; when even generic big AAA games like Horizon are embracing female protags the demographic fight is already on the upswing.

Let's ask these kids about minority protagonists next. I doubt the results would be so positive.

 

[Ivan Amiibo]

The sample size is fine. I see this comment a lot when surveys get discussed, but if you just take one statistics course, you'll find out that ~500 samples is enough to estimate an opinion or parameter of the population.

and if you ask the professor why that is, you basically get a slightly more complex "just because" answer that doesn't satisfy at all lol

 

[More_Badass]

Why do so many people want this survey to be wrong? Why do they want surveys IN GENERAL to be wrong?

I think you're confusing caution with something more.

I took behavioral statistics a few years ago (psych major) and since then, I tend to be more wary and critical of survey results when I see them in articles. Leading questions, double barreled questions, and other variables can very easily skew data and influence how people answer

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

Can someone give me a list of at least 3 or more games that *clearly* depict women in sexist way ?

(it's a serious question, not meant to be anything else!)

Quick google search on; "sexy game characters", "slutty video game characters" "hot female characters"

If you want to see the more raunchy stuff check out tumblr and pinterest. A lot more there.

 

[IcyEyes]

Quick google search on; "sexy game characters", "slutty video game characters" "hot female characters"


If you want to see the more raunchy stuff check out tumblr and pinterest. A lot more there.

Thanks!
So, correct me if I'm wrong, a female character with skimpy outfit means sexualized ?
I mean, there are a couple of images that show girls in bikini, is this also to be considered sexualized ?

Ps I'm not starting a "war" with you, just I need to understand better.

 

[DedValve]

You can be for women's rights and don't think there is to much objectification in games at the same time, too. We are not talking women's rights here, we are talking presentation in games.

All right then. Why can't I watch porn and be tired of how women are presented in games then? (Not directed at you but just generally given the original comment).

 

[TheGrue]

Uncomfortable boners are a real issue.

 

[JPLMD]

I think you're confusing caution with something more.

I took behavioral statistics a few years ago (psych major) and since then, I tend to be more wary and critical of survey results when I see them in articles. Leading questions, double barreled questions, and other variables can very easily skew data and influence how people answer

Yup this is how I feel. These kinds of things really need to be taken with a grain of salt. The research methods should be looked into more closely before creating an association. In the medical field, we are always asked to be skeptical of any new significant finding especially in psychiatric and behavioral related studies. Not saying it's not completely impossible for men at that age to have this perception but I find it unlikely.

Oh and just because you see guys hanging out with a bunch of girls doesn't mean they're all feminist and equal gender loving men...it's called hormones and puberty.

 

[RobFox64tm]

Then why do they keep buying these games? Convictions mean nothing when you aren't taking the action to back them up.

 

[Yoshi]

All right then. Why can't I watch porn and be tired of how women are presented in games then? (Not directed at you but just generally given the original comment).

You can. But if you are having a problem with the latter for the very reason that you think sexualisation is a bad thing in general then it would be strange.

 

[The Technomancer]

Thanks!
So, correct me if I'm wrong, a female character with skimpy outfit means sexualized ?
I mean, there are a couple of images that show girls in bikini, is this also to be considered sexualized ?

Ps I'm not starting a "war" with you, just I need to understand better.

"Sexualized" yes, almost indisputably (unless you're really on the defensive or something). But sexualized does not inherently mean sexist.

For example, Bayonetta is indisputably sexualized, but there's a lot of debate even within feminist circles as to if she's sexist or not (a lot of women actually find her empowering). On the other hand it's hard to justify anything about, say, most of those ridiculous RPG armor costumes even within the context of their fantasy and the lack of apparent character agency compared to someone like Bayonetta makes things even more iffy,and I'd say they're pretty sexist

 

[GoldenCrow]

Do people realise that sexuality or flashes of skin doesn’t equate to sexism? Sexism is the stereotyping, prejudice and discrimination based solely on them being a woman. Sexuality can play a part in objectification but just because a woman is wearing skimpy clothes doesn’t mean they are being objectified and quite frankly is entirely up to them how they dress.

For example if a woman in a game is wearing skimpy clothing and depicted entirely as an object of sexual desire or a slut/whore (and in a negative light) where her character development ends at the virtual skin on display then that is sexist. Where as the character might be wearing skimpy clothes but has really good character development and the choice of clothing makes sense within the story or setting rather than just being fan service then it isn’t sexist.

 

[213372bu]

I think you're confusing caution with something more.

I took behavioral statistics a few years ago (psych major) and since then, I tend to be more wary and critical of survey results when I see them in articles. Leading questions, double barreled questions, and other variables can very easily skew data and influence how people answer

Yeah, this is basically what I was going to say.

 

[PtM]

Do people realise that sexuality or flashes of skin doesn’t equate to sexism? Sexism is the stereotyping, prejudice and discrimination based solely on them being a woman. Sexuality can play a part in objectification but just because a woman is wearing skimpy clothes doesn’t mean they are being objectified and quite frankly is entirely up to them how they dress.

For example if a woman in a game is wearing skimpy clothing and depicted entirely as an object of sexual desire or a slut/whore (and in a negative light) where her character development ends at the virtual skin on display then that is sexist. Where as the character might be wearing skimpy clothes but has really good character development and the choice of clothing makes sense within the story or setting rather than just being fan service then it isn’t sexist.

Could all be an alibi.

 

[The Technomancer]

Do people realise that sexuality or flashes of skin doesn’t equate to sexism? Sexism is the stereotyping, prejudice and discrimination based solely on them being a woman. Sexuality can play a part in objectification but just because a woman is wearing skimpy clothes doesn’t mean they are being objectified and quite frankly is entirely up to them how they dress.

For example if a woman in a game is wearing skimpy clothing and depicted entirely as an object of sexual desire or a slut/whore (and in a negative light) where her character development ends at the virtual skin on display then that is sexist. Where as the character might be wearing skimpy clothes but has really good character development and the choice of clothing makes sense within the story or setting rather than just being fan service then it isn’t sexist.

I'll disagree with you on the second part because "its justified in world" can be used to justify literally anything (and this isn't limited to games). Just like we can ask why a character was dressed like that we can also ask why a world was built like that. Everything in a piece of media is intentional

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I usually find it's the current 18-24 year old crowd that's most fine with poor representation in games. Luckily the younger generation is being more progressively brought up (at least in most the schools I work for). We have programs specifically designed to encourage students to chase their interests, regardless of the status quo.

 

[……forgetit]

Doesn't surprise me at all. Even when I was in highschool everyone avoided games like that. You were a creep if you play DOA beach volleyball or something similar.

 

[The Technomancer]

I usually find it's the current 18-24 year old crowd that's most fine with poor representation in games. Luckily the younger generation is being more progressively brought up (at least in most the schools I work for). We have programs specifically designed to encourage students to chase their interests, regardless of the status quo.

The younger generation's ubiquitous internet saturation almost guarantees it because it reduces the "well no-one I know cares about it" factor that's a huge part of the inertia among older generations

 

[Dremark]

I still don't really understand GamerGate. The people in favour of the movement are against feminism, right?

The people in favor of the movement are for ethics in game journalism. There are a lot of people associated with the movement who are also anti-feminist though.

 

[The Technomancer]

The people in favor of the movement are for ethics in game journalism. There are a lot of people associated with the movement who are also anti-feminist though.

What was the unethical incident that got them started?