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Living in a world where a 7 is average

pashmilla

Banned
This is a topic I touched on in my Final Fantasy XV analysis/retrospective thing, and the Mass Effect downgrade thread stirred it up in my mind again, so I figured maybe I'd put my thoughts down on the subject as a whole and we could talk about it. I'll write it up into a more formal essay type thing at some point but for now I just wanted to share thoughts and gather ideas.

The tl;dr version is that prominent female characters in video games are not allowed to be ugly, because they're designed with the gaze of the presumed straight male player in mind.

This is far from being inherent only to gaming. We see it in Hollywood and the music industries, where female celebrities often feel the need to try to maintain their looks through extensive plastic surgery (Madonna, Megan Fox, off the top of my head) because they're painfully aware that their looks are a tradeable commodity on the showbiz stage. Once a female actress gets old, unless she's a revered dame like Meryl Streep, Helen Mirren, etc., chances are she's going to fall into obscurity. Because she's old, and old women can't be ugly, and what value does a woman have without her looks? Meanwhile, ageing actors like George Clooney and Harrison Ford still have successful careers, because they are not viewed with the male gaze - the presumed default audience - and thus do not have the same pressure to be attractive.

We see it very much in video games too. I pointed out that in FFXV, the male characters are very varied in their designs, in terms of facial features - big noses, scars, pores, wrinkles, greasy skin, chapped lips. Meanwhile, all the female characters are flawless mannequins, with flawless groomed hair and perfectly applied makeup.

4787f12c-0824-4a02-aa3b-1f8a03fa849a.jpg

An old picture, but it makes the point pretty well. While the main characters are fairly realistic, if anime-ised, Luna and Gentiana have perfect porcelain-doll features, almost to the point of uncanny valley.

Now, like I said, the ME: Andromeda downgrade thread reminded me of this. People were complaining about Fem!Ryder's derpface, and some claimed that the complainers' real problem was that Ryder wasn't a flawless model created for the male gaze. (By the way, it's both.)

So I went looking at the character pages for the original Mass Effect trilogy, wondering if there would be a noticeable difference in the designs of male and female characters. And hoo boy were there.


We can have female aliens, but only if they're hot blue bisexual female aliens! No weird lizard ladies for us.

Then I looked at The Witcher 3:


Definitely seeing a pattern....


Yup.

It isn't just these. Most games you can think of, this will be the case, whether Japanese or Western. Because in Japan, and in the US and UK and Europe and everywhere else games are made - we live in patriarchal societies where women are objectified, literally turned into "things", for the sexual titillation of men. This trend is endemic in most media, be it TV, film, games, and so on. It commodifies the female body, assigns a woman a perceived worth based on how attractive she is to men. And (this is probably my favourite phrase by now) media reflects and reinforces the norms of society. In only allowing "attractive" women into games, in order to satisfy the presumed straight male player, not only do devs continue to exclude the 48% of gamers who are women, but they also reinforce the toxic notion that a woman's sole value and worth lies in her desirability to men.

The thing with this trend is - not only is it offensive to women, a reinforcement of those unattainable beauty standards we're constantly measured against, that "ordinary" women are somehow lesser, but it's also offensive to men; it implies that men only perceive female characters as fap material, and wouldn't be able to handle the presence of an "ordinary" female character. But then, on the flipside of the coin, we have men who complain when a female character doesn't measure up to their standards of attractiveness, thus seemingly proving the devs' point and putting female representation back even further.

(credit to wee for the amazing thread title idea <3)
 

AR15mex

Member
Ohhh wow, so we are to blame here as well! So in other words if we want changes, we need to start doing it ourselves!
 

maxcriden

Member
Well said! Great OP. This is one aspect I've been liking in BOTW, actually. The male and female characters could have more body types*, for sure, but the face types are quite varied, and don't have the look generally of trying to be depicted as traditionally attractive (across either gender) and I don't think Zelda would be considered as "traditionally beautiful" as she has been in the past. The people by and large look normal.

*granted if we factor in non-humans there's definitely more variance in body types.

Edit: oh, and also, I really like that there is a significant age range of NPCs in this game. You get a lot of elderly folk and unusual relationships across characters that seem fairly progressive. There is a very old man with a middle-aged wife and this is done not for a creep factor but as part of an unusual text-based story in the game. In fact, it reminds me of an intriguing Japanese drama Muri na Renai, with a similar pairing, and there as well the younger woman wasn't the stereotypical "beautiful much younger" woman, but a middle-aged woman who looks like a normal person.
 

benzopil

Member
Why did you choose Watch Dogs and not Watch Dogs 2?

Also this thread title doesn't work if you have 4 pictures with a lot of faces, even somebody who doesn't read the OP will suspect that something's wrong.
 
D

Deleted member 59090

Unconfirmed Member
The Witcher uses preexisting characters so it's not the best example
 

hotcyder

Member
I though this thread was going to be about 8 Hate and anything below a 7 being trash

Still, good points well made
 

Zaphrynn

Member
Ohhh wow, so we are to blame here as well! So in other words if we want changes, we need to start doing it ourselves!

Seeing as it's mostly men making games, and gaming and STEM are still hostile towards women...Uh, yeah? At least that's a start. Nobody is saying only men need to change this, btw, but to pretend it isn't straight men pushing these characters is daft.
 
The Witcher uses preexisting characters so it's not the best example
in the book yennefer is described as middlingly attractive but with something about her that makes her more appealing. also she drowns her face in makeup.

in the game they just make her a supermodel
 
Well said! Great OP. This is one aspect I've been liking in BOTW, actually. The male and female characters could have more body types*, for sure, but the face types are quite varied, and don't have the look generally of trying to be depicted as traditionally attractive (across either gender) and I don't think Zelda would be considered as "traditionally beautiful" as she has been in the past. The people by and large look normal.

*granted if we factor in non-humans there's definitely more variance in body types.

Is there any female gorons? i cant remember seeing anyone, maybe theyre hermaphrodites
 

Amneisac

Member
This is the main point that I try to make in every "objectification of women in gaming" thread. People try to explain away the problem in every specific game as its addressed without looking at the big picture. Almost every single video game that features a female character has this same issue.
 
Ohhh wow, so we are to blame here as well! So in other words if we want changes, we need to start doing it ourselves!
What does this even mean? I feel like this thread triggered you.

Anyway, I agree with this. More body types isn't a bad thing and I hope that moving forward we see more. Going off of the idea that you want a recognizable silhouette to differentiate&#8203; between characters and make them more recognizable, I really don't see why it isn't more common to have more body types. You especially see it as common in animation. Genndy Tartokovsky's works are a good example. Each character is recognizable just by their silhouette and because they don't all have (generic male and female slim body) they're more unique and memorable. Plus, not everyone needs to be thin 5'9" man with short hair and stubble or blonde long haired pale woman. It gets boring.
 

Quonny

Member
Thought this was going to be a Sterling-Zelda review thread.

Also, while I agree with your points, your examples are a little weak. Witcher uses existing characters from years ago, Mass Effect 2 is over seven years old, why use Watch Dogs when Watch Dogs 2 has the same issues, etc.

Not to discredit the issue, as it's clearly one, but these examples are pretty underwhelming, especially as this issue has become more mainstream and talked about in the past five years or so.
 

pashmilla

Banned
Thought this was going to be a Sterling-Zelda review thread.

Also, while I agree with your points, your examples are a little weak. Witcher uses existing characters from years ago, Mass Effect 2 is over seven years old, why use Watch Dogs when Watch Dogs 2 has the same issues, etc.

Not to discredit the issue, as it's clearly one, but these examples are pretty underwhelming, especially as this issue has become more mainstream and talked about in the past five years or so.

honestly it's mostly bc I'm tired and sick and literally every example I could have used flew out of my head as soon as I started googling. If anyone has any better ones tell me and I'll add them
 

SomTervo

Member
This is really interesting, thanks for the thread. Never thought of it that way. Men are all wrinkly, detailed, weathered - women smooth, plastic, perfect. Dopple standardo.

Don't understand the thread title though?

The Witcher uses preexisting characters so it's not the best example

I think more importantly all the leading women in The Witcher 3 are borderline superheroes. Indeed, Yen and Triss are both sorceresses. Sorceresses make themselves beautiful by force in The Witcher's universe.

Women in side quests etc look far less perfect, and there are also many men (princes etc) who look 'pristine'.

Still, doesn't negate the trend on the whole.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
If you wanna use another example example from the game in question, this was called terrible in that downgrade thread and some even insinuated that Bioware intentionally makes female characters "ugly" in the goal of feminism.
mass-effect-andromeda-key-hi-res-screenshot.jpg


because it doesn't look exactly like a photoshopped picture of the model she's scanned from.

Like holy shit.
 

pashmilla

Banned
This is really interesting, thanks for the thread. Never thought of it that way. Men are all wrinkly, detailed, weathered - women smooth, plastic, perfect.

Don't understand the thread title though?

You know, bc we rank people on attractiveness out of ten, like "oh, she's a five"? And in games if you're below a 7 you're ugly. Something like that.
 

jph139

Member
I think a part of it is that important women in games have a pretty narrow age range. Like, there's a lot of female-centric games out there, but those characters are almost universally young adults.

Your male options are generally either "handsome young dude" or "grizzled old dude" which is limited as well, but you're not going to see a female Geralt - grey hair, wrinkles, scars - leading a game very often.
 
i think you have a very big flaw here

non of the male characters you shown or mentioned are considered ugly. they are all very attractive.


the difference is, that male attractiveness is seen more varied and widespread, while female is way more onesided.
scares, a big nose and all that stuff is not something ugly or unattractive, or even a flaw as a man. it can always be sexy
this is an attractive good looking man:
peter-dinklage-lightbox-2.jpg


you just don't make or have ugly characters of any gender in games and movies.
unlike you specially want them to be that way for whatever reason, what is rarely the case, but happens also.


i also do think that mass effect, with Aliens is a very poor example in general.
so you should rather discuss, why there is such a big discrepancy in the variety between male and female attractiveness.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I think a part of it is that important women in games have a pretty narrow age range. Like, there's a lot of female-centric games out there, but those characters are almost universally young adults.

Your male options are generally either "handsome young dude" or "grizzled old dude" which is limited as well, but you're not going to see a female Geralt - grey hair, wrinkles, scars - leading a game very often.
Very often? Not even remotely often, literally the only examples I can think of are Evie Frye in the dlc of Syndicate that takes place 20 years later:
guillaume-molle-evie-ingame-headshot.jpg


and Ana from Overwatch:
maxresdefault.jpg


Gamers have issues dealing with different chin structures let alone being able to handle the fact that women aren't all between the ages of jrpg teenager and young adult.
 
Mass Effect: Andromeda has really hit this home recently. Female Ryder has some issues but those mainly seem to be some wonky animation, the actual design itself is fine yet it's being treated like some great insult that it was allowed in the game.
Ohhh wow, so we are to blame here as well! So in other words if we want changes, we need to start doing it ourselves!
You ok?
honestly it's mostly bc I'm tired and sick and literally every example I could have used flew out of my head as soon as I started googling. If anyone has any better ones tell me and I'll add them

Street Fighter V is a recent one that comes to mind. Dudes of all shapes and sizes, women not so much.
 

SomTervo

Member
You know, bc we rank people on attractiveness out of ten, like "oh, she's a five"? And in games if you're below a 7 you're ugly. Something like that.

Crossed my mind, yeah - is the point that all the women have to be 10s in games because '7 is average'?

I dig.

Very often? Not even remotely often, literally the only examples I can think of are Evie Frye in the dlc of Syndicate that takes place 20 years later:
guillaume-molle-evie-ingame-headshot.jpg

Great example. Man I need to play that DLC, even though I heard it's not the best.
 

ASIS

Member
I came in expecting a completely different thread. But since I am here I'll post my two cents.

Personally, I think the only real problem of the gaming world is the"damsel in distress" trope. Other than that, I really don't think there's much of an issue about many of the topic surrounding gender.

You posted a few select games, but I've been playing Breath of the Wild, and one of the main characters is Impa, who's definitely not in the category you are describing, tales of Berseria, even though they show a little too much cleavage for my taste, also has varied female characters. I'v been watching some overwatch and I see it there too. The Last of Us 2 is also another example. I hear Horizon also does an excellent job but I still know nothing as I'm planning to go in blind with that one.

I'm sorry but I don't see it.
 

Quonny

Member
If you wanna use another example example from the game in question, this was called terrible in that downgrade thread and some even insinuated that Bioware intentionally makes female characters "ugly" in the goal of feminism.
mass-effect-andromeda-key-hi-res-screenshot.jpg


because it doesn't look exactly like a photoshopped picture of the model she's scanned from.

Like holy shit.

I think the issue with ME:A is that all the characters, male, female, alien, human, look off. Not ugly off, not wow-she's-not-a-supermodel off, like, off off. The textures, the lighting, the weird emotions they express (or don't express), the sunken eyes that just kinda float in the skull, and in combination with the voice acting...it's all just odd.
 

benzopil

Member
Thought this was going to be a Sterling-Zelda review thread.

Also, while I agree with your points, your examples are a little weak. Witcher uses existing characters from years ago, Mass Effect 2 is over seven years old, why use Watch Dogs when Watch Dogs 2 has the same issues, etc.

Not to discredit the issue, as it's clearly one, but these examples are pretty underwhelming, especially as this issue has become more mainstream and talked about in the past five years or so.

WD2 didn't have attractive (or "supermodel") female characters at all.
 
I like that this was a valid point brought up with the Overwatch cast last year when looking at its males compared to the females and slowly but surely there's been a bit of progress with that title having Ana and Orisa added, that last one could easily have gone for that sleek and slender female robo trope, instead we got ourselves a bulky quadruped thing.
 
in the book yennefer is described as middlingly attractive but with something about her that makes her more appealing. also she drowns her face in makeup.

in the game they just make her a supermodel
That's not really accurate, the sorceresses use magic to make themselves appear more attractive than they really are as well as using makeup. Yenneffer is said to be very attractive in the books.

Also the Witcher 3 does have a lot of variety in terms of female characters and their looks, most of the female NPCs are not made to be attractive. The main characters yes, but most of them are sorceresses who are unnaturally attractive due to their use of magic. That doesn't mean they weren't designed to be attractive to straight men, they definitely were, but they are also established in the source material to be that way.
 
Look at Mass Effect Andromeda threads right in this forum to see people slaming on ugly women then you'll get the answer on why devs make attractive women in their games.
 
I think the issue with ME:A is that all the characters, male, female, alien, human, look off. Not ugly off, not wow-she's-not-a-supermodel off, like, off off. The textures, the lighting, the weird emotions they express (or don't express), the sunken eyes that just kinda float in the skull, and in combination with the voice acting...it's all just odd.
exactly, but the thing that is spread around is femryder, with a comparison pic to the model she's based on.

it's nothing new, go in any netherrealm fighting game thread. people will complain about how bad the women look - it's not just the women, the men look janky as fuck too, but they don't notice it because they immediately find the women unattractive and thus poorly modelled while they don't notice it on the dudes.
 

Nuke Soda

Member
I thought this thread was going to be about the epidemic of people losing their shit over a 7/10.

It is an unfortunate reality of media that women have the short end of the stick. With how many billions and trillions as a whole it makes though it isn't changing.
 

Brokun

Member
Do women not want to look at or play as attractive women?

Any time a game gives me the choice of character creation I try my best to make an as attractive man as I can. If we were to grade looks on the global, non-model scale I would be a 6 at best and maybe that's even stretching it, but when the game gives me a choice I want to make myself a 10. Do women not want to do this?

Genuinely curious since my only point of reference is my wife and she doesn't care about this particular issue, but I know she doesn't represent the majority of the female player base because, well, she's a bit of an odd one lol.
 
Do women not want to look at or play as attractive women?

Any time a game gives me the choice of character creation I try my best to make an as attractive man as I can. If we were to grade looks on the global, non-model scale I would be a 6 at best and maybe that's even stretching it, but when the game gives me a choice I want to make myself a 10. Do women not want to do this?

Genuinely curious since my only point of reference is my wife and she doesn't care about this particular issue, but I know she doesn't represent the majority of the female player base because, well, she's a bit of an odd one lol.
that's beside the point - men in games are allowed to be ugly, frequently.

women are not.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Thought this was going to be a Sterling-Zelda review thread.

Also, while I agree with your points, your examples are a little weak. Witcher uses existing characters from years ago, Mass Effect 2 is over seven years old, why use Watch Dogs when Watch Dogs 2 has the same issues, etc.

Not to discredit the issue, as it's clearly one, but these examples are pretty underwhelming, especially as this issue has become more mainstream and talked about in the past five years or so.
?

compared to:
Claralille.png


WD2 is way more diverse.

I think the issue with ME:A is that all the characters, male, female, alien, human, look off. Not ugly off, not wow-she's-not-a-supermodel off, like, off off. The textures, the lighting, the weird emotions they express (or don't express), the sunken eyes that just kinda float in the skull, and in combination with the voice acting...it's all just odd.
That screenshot looks exactly like what i'd expect from a next gen RPG character who's customizable.
 
OP has some decent points but male gaze is an outmoded critical lens imo and OP also ignores that beauty standards for men and women are different, and that's a whole different kettle of fish that's much more complex to unwrap. But no one would say any of the 4 main FFXV dudes are ugly because, for example, Gladio has a scar. Gladio is rugged and hot as hell by any mainstream definition of male beauty.

OP also ignores that most women would probably prefer to play as attractive (female) characters, too. You can argue that that's because of ingrained sexism or because everyone has been brainwashed by mainstream media's unrealistic beauty standards, both of which may be true, but that don't make it not so.

We don't need uglier women in games, we just need more variety. Already some good examples given here - Ana, older Evie from Syndicate, WD2 - those are a great start, but we're not there yet.
 

4Tran

Member
There are two things going on here. The first is that male characters are the norm so you can have lots of different kinds of traits for them: young, old, handsome, ugly, and so forth. With female characters, the main character trait is that they're women. And since that's their main trait, there's a lot less reason to introduce variation. The second one is that one of the main purposes of female characters is to be attractive to the male gamer. An unattractive female character defeats that purpose so there's less reason for her to be in the game.

Generally speaking, if the game developers are consciously aware of these two underlying principles, they can fix them quite easily. The main issue is that these principles are invisible without careful examination, so the cycle keeps on getting perpetuated.
 

Jyester

Member
Never expected the thread to be about this particular topic, but here we are.

I mostly agree with you, but I'd argue that (leading) men are usually also designed with a certain ideal in mind. The examples you posted consist of sometimes grizzled, bust mostly handsome guys. I'm sure Geralt has his share of fans. One thing I enjoy about older films is that the male lead doesn't necessarily have to be overtly muscular or chiseled.

Coming back to games, I think both sexes are idealized, but for women the spectrum is much smaller.
 
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