Garrett Hawke
Member
okay, and being ugly is usually not attractive in men and yet we have ugly male game characters
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Living in a world where a 7 is average
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NinjaCoachZ
Member
What sucks is just how extreme it is. When devs try to design female characters that aren't conventionally-attractive, they often make them comically grotesque. Like Hanako in Persona 4, Queen Brahne in Final Fantasy IX, just for a couple examples that come to mind. I have no problem with those designs themselves, but it'd just be nice to have stuff that's not "all-or-nothing", you know?
Meanwhile with FFXV you have all the characters existing in spite of their imperfect features rather than having them inform their designs. It's true that in many respects they can still be considered attractive, but it's also elements like that which make them seem more "rugged" or "masculine". They are still designed according to a male ideal, and this ideal also informs how the female characters are designed. So it's always not completely fair to say "oh, but the men are sexualized too". The attractiveness is basically a byproduct of designers creating characters that appeal to their own ideals, rather than those as perceived through the eyes of someone attracted to them, if that makes sense. The point about the male gaze being dominant holds pretty true there, I think.
One female character I can think of who's scarred is Baiken from Guilty Gear. I think for the most part the games do a good job of not using her for cheap fanservice and handling her well, though in Xrd they added an eyepatch which de-emphasizes the scarring on her eye and looks more conventionally "cool". Plus her outfit has always shown cleavage which tends to be debateable.
It's been a problem with Street Fighter forever. Makoto is pretty much the only female character who isn't stereotypically "attractive" in some way. Meanwhile the same game had Necro and Oro in it.
Tekken is really bad about it though, because of the timeskip from 3 onward. The series gradually reunited the vast majority of its male characters, with many of them in their 40s or 50s and being just as fit as ever, with some like Kazuya, Heihachi, and Baek showing clear signs of aging, Bob being morbidly obese and flipping around like it's nobody's business... and yet Nina and Anna were literally put in a freezer to prevent their aging, Jun and Michelle vanished to conveniently be replaced by their younger daughters and when they finally came back in Tag 2 they showed no signs of age at all. Soulcalibur V was another Bamco fighter with similar stuff going on.
To be fair, Marshall Law was also replaced by his son in Tekken 3, but his "aging" arc was weird. In 4 and 5 he had a beard and more lines on his face, but in 6 he was clean-shaven which made him look way younger. The freezing shenanigans with Nina and Anna were pretty blatant though. Basically, while there was some variance in how they handled the male characters, the older female characters were either dropped or not allowed to age across the board, so there was a definite difference in standards there.
Meanwhile with FFXV you have all the characters existing in spite of their imperfect features rather than having them inform their designs. It's true that in many respects they can still be considered attractive, but it's also elements like that which make them seem more "rugged" or "masculine". They are still designed according to a male ideal, and this ideal also informs how the female characters are designed. So it's always not completely fair to say "oh, but the men are sexualized too". The attractiveness is basically a byproduct of designers creating characters that appeal to their own ideals, rather than those as perceived through the eyes of someone attracted to them, if that makes sense. The point about the male gaze being dominant holds pretty true there, I think.
One female character I can think of who's scarred is Baiken from Guilty Gear. I think for the most part the games do a good job of not using her for cheap fanservice and handling her well, though in Xrd they added an eyepatch which de-emphasizes the scarring on her eye and looks more conventionally "cool". Plus her outfit has always shown cleavage which tends to be debateable.
It's been a problem with Street Fighter forever. Makoto is pretty much the only female character who isn't stereotypically "attractive" in some way. Meanwhile the same game had Necro and Oro in it.
Tekken is really bad about it though, because of the timeskip from 3 onward. The series gradually reunited the vast majority of its male characters, with many of them in their 40s or 50s and being just as fit as ever, with some like Kazuya, Heihachi, and Baek showing clear signs of aging, Bob being morbidly obese and flipping around like it's nobody's business... and yet Nina and Anna were literally put in a freezer to prevent their aging, Jun and Michelle vanished to conveniently be replaced by their younger daughters and when they finally came back in Tag 2 they showed no signs of age at all. Soulcalibur V was another Bamco fighter with similar stuff going on.
To be fair, Marshall Law was also replaced by his son in Tekken 3, but his "aging" arc was weird. In 4 and 5 he had a beard and more lines on his face, but in 6 he was clean-shaven which made him look way younger. The freezing shenanigans with Nina and Anna were pretty blatant though. Basically, while there was some variance in how they handled the male characters, the older female characters were either dropped or not allowed to age across the board, so there was a definite difference in standards there.
Yeah WD2 is quite amazing how diverse and unique everything is instead of beauty model #3.
Trickster
Member
She looks fine there. But there's also many examples in which she legitemately just looks completely off.
Also many people who called out fem Ryder compared to Jayde Rossi, did so because because it's simply true that there is a huge difference between them. You are free to claim that it's because the real life model is photoshopped. However I've yet to see anyone provide an unphotoshopped image where the Jayde looks close to fem Ryder
This is the closest I could find of her with a pretty neutral look -
If you can find a better picture to prove your point, please do so.
I only played a little of the game and didn't get very far (open world fatigue). I did look up main characters in WD2 and only the two attractive women came up. So, yeah, you're right. It does appear much better, that's good.
But I'm not sure about your second point. I don't get what you're trying to convey.
hairygreenpeas
Neo Member
Great topic!
This sort of thing definitely does happen in Hollywood a lot, and it's really no surprise to see it in games as well. But I'm absolutely loving the fact that there are big developers out there that at least try to be inclusive through means of having an incredibly diverse cast of characters - not only in terms of skills and personalities, but also in terms of their ethnicity, sexual orientation, and general outward appearance. It's one of the things I adore about Horizon and Watchdogs 2.
Otherwise, default Ryder looks fine (but of course I'll be customizing her to look androgynous because that is my jam when it comes to games with CC.)
This sort of thing definitely does happen in Hollywood a lot, and it's really no surprise to see it in games as well. But I'm absolutely loving the fact that there are big developers out there that at least try to be inclusive through means of having an incredibly diverse cast of characters - not only in terms of skills and personalities, but also in terms of their ethnicity, sexual orientation, and general outward appearance. It's one of the things I adore about Horizon and Watchdogs 2.
Now I find that one alright. Tbh the only primary issue I really see with the Mass Effect "downgrade" controversy are the eyes and the facial animation. The former looks dead and the latter just leaves a lot to be desired.If you wanna use another example example from the game in question, this was called terrible in that downgrade thread and some even insinuated that Bioware intentionally makes female characters "ugly" in the goal of feminism.
because it doesn't look exactly like a photoshopped picture of the model she's scanned from.
Like holy shit.
Otherwise, default Ryder looks fine (but of course I'll be customizing her to look androgynous because that is my jam when it comes to games with CC.)Well, what makes a man attractive are not just looks. If that makes sense.
If that's your point then I suppose I'd agree, but again I don't see it as an issue.
It is not a popular opinion, I know. Which is why I tend to stay out of threads that are based on gender. The thread title fooled me though. But I'll take my leave now.
Most of the male human characters you showed there are super appealing. Geralt is incredibly sexualised (and hot - appearing naked multiple times). The mainstream idea of attractive for women is that perfect skin look, while for men it's the rugged look. Not saying that beauty standards are correct in the real world - just that the games you picked as examples equally tap into those standards for both genders.
Why are you surprised? It's hardly the developers' fault when the wanker kids are frequently making an outrage every time a female character is not a supermodel doll waifu. Look at League of Legends, every time they have tried to make a character that wasn't a perfect faced model they've been bombed with hundreds of threads of these immature kids being angry because the character doesn't have huge boobs or a doll animu face.
I mean, I've read in this very place that Aloy from Horizon was "ugly", what do you even expect at this point.
Lmao @ TW3 though. Literally the exact same face with different hair for all three females. Embarrassing.
I mean, I've read in this very place that Aloy from Horizon was "ugly", what do you even expect at this point.
Lmao @ TW3 though. Literally the exact same face with different hair for all three females. Embarrassing.
hydrophilic attack
Member
rockstar games tend to have characters (both male and female) that are not very attractive
and this thread title is beautiful
and this thread title is beautiful
Bethesda games have ugly EVERY character, so that might not be the best example.
SatoAilDarko
Member
I just want more women who aren't a single skinny body type. Especially when that body type has them sewn into their clothes.
Seriously there's like no space in any clothes for most female characters.
Seriously there's like no space in any clothes for most female characters.
prag16
Banned
She's Samara with different lighting.
But we're talking about looks. Hearts of gold aside, the point is many games don't even give you the option to learn if supermodel number 1 is remotely more virtuous than supermodel number 2, their stories begin and end with their physical description.
TheMrPliskin
Member
Preexisting characters like Triss, who had to be completely rewritten in order to fit DD Projekt Red's design requirements. There is nothing in the source material that says that every female character needs to wear high heels.
Plus, their original characters fit the same pattern. This argument doesn't fly.
Funny because I'm usually complaining about how unattractive most of the men are in games compared to the women. Bioware is really guilty (in the past) of making all the women flawless and most of the men unappealing. I think Kaidan and Dorian were the only good looking ones. Very well written post though, I agree with what you are saying. It's an unfortunate double standard.
Love the Witcher games but this argument doesn't fly. They blatantly retconned Triss's scars from the books so that they could show some cleavage.
Basketball
Member
just some of the main characters from 2016
iALX
Member
If you consider Geralt or any male FF characters ugly, I think your beauty perception may be a bit skewed.
Which one do you consider unattractive? Zaeed, Mordin, Grunt, Jacob, Garrus... Legion? Look into fanfiction a little, and you'll see what female players/writers consider attractive.
On the other hand (personal opinion): Morinth can chew through a watermelon with her jaw, Samara has nice facial features but a boring face, Jack's unattractive while bald and Kasumi's... well, never considered her beautiful nor unattractive. Hell, even default female Shepard from ME1 and 2 is anything but attractive. Only one from that list I find attractive are Miranda (and her character's been gen. modified to perfection), and Legion - of course! So, you see, it swings both ways.
You need not delve into Witcher's lore to find out why everyone looks like that. Geralt's almost a century old, Vesemir's the oldest witcher alive, Triss & Yen are sorceresses and Ciri is in her early 20s. Yennefer is actually quite ugly, but all sorceresses maintain looks of ideal beauty through magic (illusions, if I remember).
You're missing two crucial points in your original posts (and subsequent posts, as of this time), and those are: beauty standards aren't the same everywhere, and you're only looking into AAA games.
Which one do you consider unattractive? Zaeed, Mordin, Grunt, Jacob, Garrus... Legion? Look into fanfiction a little, and you'll see what female players/writers consider attractive.
On the other hand (personal opinion): Morinth can chew through a watermelon with her jaw, Samara has nice facial features but a boring face, Jack's unattractive while bald and Kasumi's... well, never considered her beautiful nor unattractive. Hell, even default female Shepard from ME1 and 2 is anything but attractive. Only one from that list I find attractive are Miranda (and her character's been gen. modified to perfection), and Legion - of course! So, you see, it swings both ways.
You need not delve into Witcher's lore to find out why everyone looks like that. Geralt's almost a century old, Vesemir's the oldest witcher alive, Triss & Yen are sorceresses and Ciri is in her early 20s. Yennefer is actually quite ugly, but all sorceresses maintain looks of ideal beauty through magic (illusions, if I remember).
You're missing two crucial points in your original posts (and subsequent posts, as of this time), and those are: beauty standards aren't the same everywhere, and you're only looking into AAA games.
FrontalMonk
Banned
Dingdingding. Let's also not forget that far more with women the cultural beauty standards are that fat == ugly, so basically the only exception to women being any bigger than a size 6 in a game is when you go into a character creator (if they let you get that big) and when it's an NPC and the fact that they are fat is the whole joke of their character, like with Ellie in Borderlands 2.
MulderYuffie
Member
I wasn't really paying attention I thought I was in off topic for a moment when I read "Living in a world where a 7 is average" I was gonna reply with "and here I thought I was doing good with a 7 1/2"
sixteen-bit
Member
Expected this to be about review scores tbh.
I think witcher 3 and Mass Effect series are really bad choices. I think you are being unfair to them.
In the Witcher Ciri has has this really long Geralt style scar right on her face.
Then there are those horrible 3 witch things. Sure the have attractive alternate forms but their true forms are hideous. The Baron's wife is old and unattractive. His daughter has a plain face too. Cerys like Ciri is attractive but is even more scarred (even more so than Geralt if you look strictly at her face). In the Witcher 2 a female characters eyes are literally gouged out with a spoon (off screen though seen the results later). There was a truly hideous female troll in that game (witcher 2).
As for Mass Effect, they aren't as severe as Witcher but you have the female Krogan Eve, the middle age looking ship doctor (forgot her name) and in the Omega DLC they introduced a female Turian. In Andromeda I saw a decidedly non-human alien (the pink one) as well as a female turian.
I'll admit that the introduction into Mass Effect of some diverse female's was probably because people complained but I think it should be noted that Bioware has and is introducing more variety.
In the Witcher Ciri has has this really long Geralt style scar right on her face.
Then there are those horrible 3 witch things. Sure the have attractive alternate forms but their true forms are hideous. The Baron's wife is old and unattractive. His daughter has a plain face too. Cerys like Ciri is attractive but is even more scarred (even more so than Geralt if you look strictly at her face). In the Witcher 2 a female characters eyes are literally gouged out with a spoon (off screen though seen the results later). There was a truly hideous female troll in that game (witcher 2).
As for Mass Effect, they aren't as severe as Witcher but you have the female Krogan Eve, the middle age looking ship doctor (forgot her name) and in the Omega DLC they introduced a female Turian. In Andromeda I saw a decidedly non-human alien (the pink one) as well as a female turian.
I'll admit that the introduction into Mass Effect of some diverse female's was probably because people complained but I think it should be noted that Bioware has and is introducing more variety.
Astral Dog
Member
I thought this would be about the Jim 7 again,a 7 should be good
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
The mentoo™ brigade missing the point as always. Here's a thought, using Nathan Drake as an example, no one complained when he looked like this in the first reveal back in 2014.
just some of the main characters from 2016
Actually her first game design was like that, she just got turned into a 11/10 after the downgrade.
Why would she need to drown herself in makeup when she was a hunchback that changed her appearance to look like a supermodel through magic?
That's definitely Rihanna.
Acerac
Banned
Males of that character type sure are a lot more common than females who aren't drastically underweight. If you get in to indie games there are a fair few males who fit that description, and even AAA games have a fair few side characters that match up well with those ideals.
Hell, I was shocked when I saw the
great faeries
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
That older render was much more traditionally attractive than the final model for Yennefer.Actually her first game design was like that, she just got turned into a 11/10 after the downgrade.
Surprised no one has posted that SF5 characters image yet.
But yeah, great post OP. I'm sitting here trying to think of any female characters that are even remotely unattractive from recent games, but I'm coming up blank. For the most part it seems to only be in cases where they completely unhuman, like aliens or fictional lizard races.
But yeah, great post OP. I'm sitting here trying to think of any female characters that are even remotely unattractive from recent games, but I'm coming up blank. For the most part it seems to only be in cases where they completely unhuman, like aliens or fictional lizard races.
Shame I never played ME3 then cause that design is fucking awesome
The Broker
Banned
I love the Witcher 3 and one of the reasons is its female cast.
muetimueti
Neo Member
All of you guys pointing out how male characters are typically attractive as well are missing a major thing: the attractiveness in female and male characters serves completely different purposes - the men are designed for the player to identify with, while the women are there for the player to look at. Conflating the two is misrepresenting the issue, imo.
This is obviously an oversimplification and there are games that get it right of course, but I don't think the truth in this can be completely denied.
This is obviously an oversimplification and there are games that get it right of course, but I don't think the truth in this can be completely denied.
butman
Member
The same here.
Geralt looks like he's in his mid-30s, so the age Wild Hunt's writers made up for him doesn't really factor into this in any way. Ciri wears makeup, high heels and the flimsiest shirt in the world, none of which have anything to do with her age and are extremely ill-fitting to her role in the story and the places it takes her.
If with traditional you mean it would exist in the real world, then yes, because final Yeneffer is simply perfect. Which goes with the fact that witches get their looks from magic.
I like this new straw man argument. Totally sidestep the fact that MEA has awful animations and weird uncanny valley faces for all characters, body types and genders, and go straight to "all criticism of it is sexist". This is a good way to handle the debate and ignore the actual criticism.
That said, OP is right for the most part. However this, like a lot of other problems related to sexualization, isn't gaming's across alone to bear. Gaming suffers from stereotypes introduced in old media. I'm glad that Overwatch is actively working to break female body stereotypes with characters like Mei, Ana, Zarya and Orisa.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
I think the thread title is needlessly trollish (or sexist, if it's meant to suggest a number rating for humans). As for what the thread is actually about: I don't care for faces in my human characters, but bodytypes in realistic looking games for playable characters I like to be limited to athletic and not too old, because I fear what happens to the mechanics if the developers choose to have the main character overweight or super-old.
You really need to check out Mass Effect Andromeda lol
I think Aloy is a firm 6. She's one noise lenght from being the most average charcter design possible.
I didn't mean anything unkind about this. I also haven't read any behind the scenes info, so I wasn't aware of that. I simply meant her portrayal is not what I would consider as traditional "considered beautiful" features. If I'm mistaken, my apologies.
The OP certainly has a point, but this is worth noting. How often have you played a standard wish fulfillment game with a short male lead? Or a balding or pudgy one? I mean, the vast majority of the men in the images in the first post are incredibly good looking by normal person standards - they are, on average, tall and muscular, with chiseled, symmetric facial features. The default male Shepard, for instance, is arguably prettier than any woman in Mass Effect; in the Witcher, Geralt is grizzled and scarred but has the body and features of a central european supermodel.
We idealize our avatars in these sort of games.
TheMrPliskin
Member
That post isn't saying "all criticism of it is sexist" it's pointing out that the response to Mass Effect Andromeda having some not extremely attractive character designs is that they're ugly and should be changed to be attractive.
Yes there are some really wonky looking animations in that game, but that doesn't explain crap like this:
This is the perfect example of why there aren't more "normal" female characters in videogames. How sad.
sensui-tomo
Member
making them thinner is something i could care less about, but something about the edited eyes seem better than bioware's.
Isn't that kind of a subjective blanket statement? There are plenty of females in games I would consider to be ugly. Conversely there are plenty of examples of ugly males in the OP I consider to be attractive.