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343 Industries' Josh Holmes explains design decisions in Halo 5

Monocle

Member
Who says these things aren't happening?
Anyone who's played Reach or Halo 4 and has been following Halo 5 closely enough to see the road it's plainly heading down? One thing's for sure: Halo 5 isn't enjoying the benefits of Bungie's less-is-more design philosophy where every movement, weapon, and attack fit within a carefully balanced scheme. Nope, we're getting "crowd pleasing" ground pounds, maps built to accommodate universal sprint and ledge climbing (to the detriment of other movement options), and much much more.
 

Madness

Member
That was before the CoD train started

And yet, Halo 4 was actually the fastest selling Halo title before the player base completely plummeted off a cliff. Halo still sells. Look at MCC. Were it not for how broken it was, it was single-handedly selling Xbox One consoles. Instead, when people learned it was a broken game, by week 2 onwards MCC sales just plummeted to where it was barely #10 on NPD.
 
i've been content with any changes they made but i think it's sad that they're blatantly copying a franchise that no one cared about until 2007-09
 
Anyone who's played Reach or Halo 4 and has been following Halo 5 closely enough to see the road it's plainly heading down? One thing's for sure: Halo 5 isn't enjoying the benefits of Bungie's less-is-more design philosophy where every movement, weapon, and attack fit within a carefully balanced scheme. Nope, we're getting "crowd pleasing" ground pounds, maps built to accommodate universal sprint and ledge climbing (to the detriment of other movement options), and much much more.

Bungie still follows this philosophy to this day, by giving us less content than Destiny needed and forcing us to play these more.
 
Shooters will eventually play all the exact same.

Fuck sprint. That shitty mechanic should not be in Halo.

Why is this still a discussion? That cod market is too big to ignore
 

TrounceX

Member
What is this fascination always with "immersion"? Is it something really so important to people that it's worth the tradeoff to the gameplay? Is anyone less "immersed" because they can't sprint? It's the same thing when people argue about ADS and how it's against the canon and spartans aim through their visors...oh my god WHO CARES?? Who cares who cares who cares!! (and yes I am vehemently opposed to ADS as well)

I don't know man...I just don't know if I have the energy for another Halo prerelease. I've fought the good fight on forums since H3 launched but it never makes a difference. At the very least they could give us an option to turn all these abilities off so the old guard can play Halo the proper way. I'd just play H2/3 forever but 343 already crippled those two games with their incompetence.
 
The immersion stuff is something that shouldn't be a focus for a game about fun like Halo. His other points about sprint make logical sense and I have faith that they'll be implemented well due to the pro players that they hired for this in particular.

Everyone has to be less negative; FPS games are evolving mechanics-wise and Halo shouldn't be left in the dust. The mantle, Ground pound, and dash will add layers to the good core Halo experience, while bringing in newer players. The paintball mode is geared towards the CoD players with the higher kill times.

I don't envy 343's position. They lose no matter what.

Remember, they ARE taking feedback into consideration. Also, know that the majority of players don't give a shit about whether or not sprint is in.
 

HTupolev

Member
It's been around since Doom.
Sprint in most 90's shooters was more a mechanism to get around the keyboard's lack of analog controls than anything else. It behaves totally differently from sprint in modern games (which tends to prevent shooting and locks you to forward looking).

Hell, in a lot of classics, players practically treated "sprint" as standard movement; there's the old thing about binding it to caps lock so that you could have it perma-on and never worry about it again.
 
343 did not invent sprint in Halo. Bungie did. There was nothing wrong with sprint in Halo 4 and playing the old Halo games in MCC, it's hard to go back to the slowness of them. Especially after Destiny.
What? Destiny is a far slower game than Halo 2 classic/anniversary. it's down right sluggish.
 

woodland

Member
Sprint is fine. IN fact, it's required. You archaic folk out there need to let go of that one. Not having sprint when I go back to Halo 1/2/3 just feels fucking stupid to be quite frank. I mean, human beings can run. It's that simple really.

Shit, human beings can also swim, do backflips, and lie flat on the ground. But none of that is in halo, and most of it isn't in any other FPS, with the exception of going prone.

It amazes me after seeing you in multiple Halo threads that you don't realize how stupid your posts are when you're typing them out.
 
Honestly, I think the Spartan abilities are good gameplay additions in the context of SP/co-op. The thing is, what's good for PvE is not necessarily good for PvP. Unfortunately, I don't think there's much you can add to the core gameplay that won't hurt the MP experience in one way or another.
 
I am excited for Halo 5 and can't wait to play it. I enjoy all of the Halo games, and I play MCC on a daily basis. I feel like people complain about this stuff for the sake of complaining.
 

Shpeshal Nick

aka Collingwood
I agree that slightly faster kill times are needed. But that's not the reason for Halo's decline. It started with Reach which took things even further than Halo 3. Sure they added sprint but they made base movement even slower than Halo 3. They gave you a mini sniper in the DMR. CE lovers rejoiced at a long range utility, single shot weapon, but with high aim assist, bloom, and slow strafe and movement speeds, it basically meant people would ping each other at distance back and forth. Just try and get someone to play Hemorrhage in Reach. Then add in the shit mechanics of Jetpack and Armor Lock. Armor lock which would make you invincible to everything, Jetpack that would allow you to basically just run roughshod over the map design.

Couple all this with poor post launch support and you can see why Reach sucked. No universal ranks, just Arena which wasn't properly established. Weird ass title updates that either removed bloom, reduced it, basically split the player base with the CEA maps and game play, etc. Removed squad slayer, poor maps where most were Forge remakes. It just wasn't a good game and you finally saw Halo fans step back from the series. Whatever Halo CE fans felt about 2 and 3, they still played those games. But for once, people would rather not play Halo than play it.

And then came Halo 4. Instead of thinking they learned from Reach, they take it one step further. Adding in more armor abilities, making sprint universal, instant respawn which meant someone could die, respawn and sprint back and kill the player who killed him before his Shields even recharged, global ordnance which meant randomly weapons would be placed on match. One team can get a fuel rod Cannon near base, another could get a needler. Personal ordnance where you could have 2 snipers in play, 2 rockets, binary rifle, Spartan laser. Basically making each map a heavies. Why go and play in the map when I can camp and just get assists and call down power weapons at my feet.

The worst is perhaps load outs and perks which essentially broke the game. Close quarters combat thrown out the window by allowing people the boltshot which before nerf was basically a shotgun at all times. Perks like ammo which meant you could get like 6 incineration Cannon shots. Stealth coupled with active camo meant you could basically be invisible to players at will. Wait till sniper is available in personal ordnance, die, respawn with camo/Stealth and you are basically an invisible sniper. Plasma pistol and plasma grenade load outs also mean vehicle combat was gone as you could easily destroy anything. Oh, you sprint in, are about to die, throw a plasma as a martyr, die and then respawn and do it again etc.

Game play was no longer about skill, but random elements of luck and chance. Matches decided in menus rather than on the field.

Everything you said is right. I fortunately didn't spend a lot of time experiencing it given I mostly pretty much just play SWAT when the option is there. It takes the best elements of both Halo and CoD, blends them together and removes the fucking radar (almost the best part about SWAT). What's not to love?

But as Zoba said, Halo CE did have very quick kill times, which also explains why so many have yearned for it to go online for so many years. No coincidence of course. My biggest issue with the long TTK is lag. Basically anyone outside of America is fucked in Halo because of the infamous "I loaded 15 clips into the guy and he killed me with one trigger press" that non-Americans have had to suffer through since 2004.

Don't underestimate the affect that has had on Halo's popularity either. Again, another reason CoD rose so quickly post CoD 4 but also why I love SWAT so much.

I played Halo 4 SWAT the other night in MCC and despite lag I still managed a nice 26 kills (couldn't drag my team of 3 over the line against 4 though, we weren't far off). Insta-kills (headshots) like in SWAT almost completely eliminate lag, which is another reason why I love it.

Having said that, "traditional' Halo wasn't so bad when you get the odd no lag match in MCC. Had they used 100% dedis, I'm sure my frustration with traditional Halo wouldn't be so bad.
 
I am excited for Halo 5 and can't wait to play it. I enjoy all of the Halo games, and I play MCC on a daily basis. I feel like people complain about this stuff for the sake of complaining.

Maybe they complain because Halo 4 sucked complete ass and the population fell off of Mount Everest and the community told 343 loud and clear that their vision of Halo was complete and utter shit, yet here we are with Halo 5?
 

Shpeshal Nick

aka Collingwood
Shit, human beings can also swim, do backflips, and lie flat on the ground. But none of that is in halo, and most of it isn't in any other FPS, with the exception of going prone.

It amazes me after seeing you in multiple Halo threads that you don't realize how stupid your posts are when you're typing them out.

My posts are stupid?

You're the one comparing the relevance of swimming and backflips in an FPS to sprinting.

Yeah, my posts are stupid.
 

Lord Panda

The Sea is Always Right
I just want a massive battlefield with a bucketload (I'm talking at least 10) of scorpion tanks pounding away at enemy armour, and battalions of spartans, marines, ODSTs, cats, dogs, and uncle Robbie just blasting shit up. All the while, air units are screaming by providing air support and you, the player, are smack bang in the middle of it all. A real freaking war ... kind of like being in a 1st person version of Halo Wars.
 

RBK

Banned
I just hope they incorporate spartan abilities into the campaign to where it's only introduced and utilized during special key points of the story, not where I can abused ground pounds throughout the entire level.

MP videos already looked very promising, the main issues with H4(Hint: It wasn't Sprint) seem to be removed. Don't really care for spartan chatter or tons of bleeps from weapon hits, can live with it. If anything, take off power weapon indicators and notifications.
 
Maybe they complain because Halo 4 sucked complete ass and the population fell off of Mount Everest and the community told 343 loud and clear that their vision of Halo was complete and utter shit, yet here we are with Halo 5?

So out of curiosity, aside from sprint, what parallels are you drawing between Halo 4 and Halo 5 that are negative in your opinion?

Halo 4 and Halo 5 don't seem all that similar to me from what they've shown so far.
 
Maybe they complain because Halo 4 sucked complete ass and the population fell off of Mount Everest and the community told 343 loud and clear that their vision of Halo was complete and utter shit, yet here we are with Halo 5?

Halo 4 is fun, and I am still able to consistently get in a game in Halo 4 to this day without any problems on any playlist I've played. H2A is pretty much what any "Classic" Halo fan could ever want yet I have a feeling in the next year no one is going to be even playing MCC because they will be to busy complaining about Halo 5, yet it's exactly the game they want Halo 5 to be.
 

Booshka

Member
I just want a massive battlefield with a bucketload (I'm talking at least 10) of scorpion tanks pounding away at enemy armour, and battalions of spartans, marines, ODSTs, cats, dogs, and uncle Robbie just blasting shit up. All the while, air units are screaming by providing air support and you, the player, are smack bang in the middle of it all. A real freaking war ... kind of like being in a 1st person version of Halo Wars.

Planetside 2 is the closest you are gonna get to that dream.

Oh and play it on PC.
 
Halo 4 is fun, and I am still able to consistently get in a game in Halo 4 to this day without any problems on any playlist I've played. H2A is pretty much what any "Classic" Halo fan could ever want yet I have a feeling in the next year no one is going to be even playing MCC because they will be to busy complaining about Halo 5, yet it's exactly the game they want Halo 5 to be.

A vast majority of the Halo community do not want Halo 5 to be anything like it is.
 
So out of curiosity, aside from sprint, what parallels are you drawing between Halo 4 and Halo 5 that are negative in your opinion?

Halo 4 and Halo 5 don't seem all that similar to me from what they've shown so far.

.There is sprint
.The maps are too big because of sprint
.There is a thruster pack
.There are other spartan abilities that are completely unnecessary
.There is too much going on the screen it's like a Michael Bay wet dream
.The announcer sounds like a fucking
douchebag (just like Halo 4)
.There are way to many medals
.The ADS looks stupid and takes up way to much of the screen
.You can clamber like mirrors edge (which wasn't in Halo 4, but it looks dumb)
 

woodland

Member
My posts are stupid?

You're the one comparing the relevance of swimming and backflips in an FPS to sprinting.

Yeah, my posts are stupid.

Did you not read your post claiming that a human was able to run and therefore should be able to in a video game? Humans can also swim the front stroke - why isn't that in Halo yet?

If you can't see the stupidity of your arguments, I see not point in trying to discuss it with you.
 

DJ Gunner

Member
So out of curiosity, aside from sprint, what parallels are you drawing between Halo 4 and Halo 5 that are negative in your opinion?

Halo 4 and Halo 5 don't seem all that similar to me from what they've shown so far.

When I watch Halo 5 gameplay, I see people sprinting all over huge corridor maps chasing kills.

Which is exactly what Halo 4 was, at it's core.

Basically, play Halo 4 with static weapon spawns, no random ordinance or loadouts/AAs- and then add ADS, and you have Halo 5.
 
When I watch Halo 5 gameplay, I see people sprinting all over huge corridor maps chasing kills.

Which is exactly what Halo 4 was, at it's core.

Basically, play Halo 4 with static weapon spawns, no random ordinance or loadouts/AAs- and then add ADS, and you have Halo 5.

so basically big team halo 4 on MCC, because that's exactly how it plays.

seriously, when you have the time go play (find) a game of big team on halo 4.
 
Cosmetic ADS that doesn't even need to be used. The reason people who hate ADS hate it is because of the penalty for hip fire by making it less accurate. From what we've seen that ain't the case in H5. I wouldn't mind if we could toggle it with classic zoom but if we can't it doesn't matter since i can still play as i have been in any other Halo game.

I don't even know what's supposed to constitute a "dudebro" but spartan chatter as in calling out enemy positions or announcing when they've picked up a weapon doesn't really bother me. Seems useful if someone doesn't have a mic.

Zoom is kinda important on the longer range rifles. Hardly a case of don't use it.
It also is considerably more cluttered than the zoom of prior games. Sight-line obstructing.
Lore wise it doesn't make sense.

Overall all, it adds nothing of value and just elicits a further "like CoD" response which isn't what 343i should be angling for after H4. If you have to defend it with stating that is merely cosmetic, you should step back and think why something poorly received with drawbacks is even being considered in the first place.

Dudebro, hard to convey properly.
Like an overly casual, frattish nature with constant ego stroking. It goes against immersion as a supersoldier.
 

DJ Gunner

Member
so basically big team halo 4 on MCC, because that's exactly how it plays.

seriously, when you have the time go play (find) a game of big team on halo 4.

I've played enough Halo 4 to know that I don't like the game, at all. Big Team, 4v4, objective or slayer- it's not Halo. It's Super Mega Ultra Halo (in a heavy filtered Stietzer voice) and it deserved to lose 95% of it's playerbase in less than six months.

But I'm also a realist and can acknowledge that the game had to evolve. My beef with what's happened, though, is that the caretakers of the franchise are chasing trends rather than setting them like the creators did.
 

Madness

Member
Everything you said is right. I fortunately didn't spend a lot of time experiencing it given I mostly pretty much just play SWAT when the option is there. It takes the best elements of both Halo and CoD, blends them together and removes the fucking radar (almost the best part about SWAT). What's not to love?

But as Zoba said, Halo CE did have very quick kill times, which also explains why so many have yearned for it to go online for so many years. No coincidence of course. My biggest issue with the long TTK is lag. Basically anyone outside of America is fucked in Halo because of the infamous "I loaded 15 clips into the guy and he killed me with one trigger press" that non-Americans have had to suffer through since 2004.

Don't underestimate the affect that has had on Halo's popularity either. Again, another reason CoD rose so quickly post CoD 4 but also why I love SWAT so much.

I played Halo 4 SWAT the other night in MCC and despite lag I still managed a nice 26 kills (couldn't drag my team of 3 over the line against 4 though, we weren't far off). Insta-kills (headshots) like in SWAT almost completely eliminate lag, which is another reason why I love it.

Having said that, "traditional' Halo wasn't so bad when you get the odd no lag match in MCC. Had they used 100% dedis, I'm sure my frustration with traditional Halo wouldn't be so bad.

Yeah, SWAT was challenging Team Slayer and BTB for you playlist in Halo 4. I love that the mode exists, and I often play it at times I don't feel like getting into team Slayer, BTB etc. Same with Team Snipers. The best part about SWAT in MCC was supposed to be 60FPS with dedicated servers. I agree if this launch wasn't such a mess, there wouldn't be as much pessimism for Halo 5. H2A emulates classic game play nicely. It's basically Halo 4 without the junk random elements. I actually wanted more maps so it would be viable. Imagine if there were 10-12 maps etc. And H2A SWAT plays pretty great too.

I've always said Halo innovated best with things that complemented the base game play. Something like Forge revolutionized Halo, getting things like firefight, new maps, new weapons ie. Grenade launcher, Railgun, new game types. Invasion, Ricochet etc.

Oh well we have 3 weeks to play the hell out of Halo 5 see whether we like it or not.
 

Ape

Banned
I think ill play the game and see if i like it or not. The beta is in a couple weeks so that works. I'll go in with an open mind but if it isn't fun then ill call it as I see it.
 

nbnt

is responsible for the well-being of this island.
I like the changes.

Ground pound should fuck the right off though. There's a difference between experimenting with movement changes/ADS, and adding a one hit kill super move. Even CoD doesn't do that.
 

JimiNutz

Banned
And yet, Halo 4 was actually the fastest selling Halo title before the player base completely plummeted off a cliff. Halo still sells. Look at MCC. Were it not for how broken it was, it was single-handedly selling Xbox One consoles. Instead, when people learned it was a broken game, by week 2 onwards MCC sales just plummeted to where it was barely #10 on NPD.

How long can 343 survive on the Halo name though?

Halo 4 MP was poorly received but people still came back for MCC (mainly for the nostalgia and amazing value package).
But MCC was broken at launch in a very public way and two big missteps like that are going to hurt the brand name.

Halo 5 is going to have to be awesome because I don't think there is any franchise in the world that will survive 3 bad launches in a row - especially from a new developer.

If Halo 5 doesn't get it right in a big way and really hit the ground running I worry for the franchise. People aren't just going to keep on coming back over and over and over. If they don't get it right this time it may be time to bring Perfect Dark out of retirement and hope that Gears can bring people in again.
 
I like the changes.

Ground pound should fuck the right off though. There's a difference between experimenting with movement changes/ADS, and adding a one hit kill super move. Even CoD doesn't do that.

don't remind me, stopped playing PVP in Destiny cause of garbage like that.
 
.There is sprint
Sprint will be discussed to death. That's why I said aside from sprint.

.The maps are too big because of sprint
We've seen what? Three maps? None of them even look that big. Hell, one is a Midship remake and the other is just a mostly flat simulation room. I feel like you're making pretty big assumptions there.

.There is a thruster pack
Was this even something people complained about in Halo 4? I literally never saw the Thruster Pack used outside of Infection or whatever it was called in Halo 4. You're free to dislike it but I would hardly draw comparisons between Halo 4 and Halo 5's Thruster Packs in terms of how they are used in gameplay.

.There are other spartan abilities that are completely unnecessary
Again, I don't see the comparisons to Halo 4 here. At first glance I'm not a huge fan of the shoulder charge or ground pound either but these are both things that are new to the franchise. If you don't like them that's cool but you can't say 343 didn't listen when a lot of the stuff that was complained about is gone now, such as Active Camo, Promethean Vision and Jet Packs.

.There is too much going on the screen it's like a Michael Bay wet dream
We must be seeing different things. It just looks like fast paced Halo to me. Lots of bullets, lots of grenades.

.The announcer sounds like a fucking
douchebag (just like Halo 4)
Hardly something that effects gameplay. I feel like you're reaching a bit here.

.There are way to many medals
Is this seriously something we're complaining about now? Too many medals? Come on...

.The ADS looks stupid and takes up way to much of the screen
And Halo 4 had no ADS. It had the standard zoom, same as any other Halo. It's not even true ADS anyway, just zoom with a different visual style. I get why some people don't like it but it's so massively overblown. It's not the point I'm trying to make anyway.

I mean, in the post I quoted you suggested 343 didn't listen to any of the complaints from Halo 4. I don't see how you can honestly believe that. Some of the biggest things that people complained about are gone. Loadouts are gone. Ordnance is gone. Players having different armor abilities is gone. Active Camo, Promethean Vision and Jet Packs are gone.

If you don't like certain things about Halo 5 that's cool, I get that. I'm not going to say your opinion is wrong, but to say that 343 didn't listen to the community at all in the jump from Halo 4 to Halo is just false. I think it has more to do with the fact that Halo 5 isn't like the older Halos and you dislike that so you try to draw comparisons to Halo 4 as a way to make the game seem terrible before the majority of people have even played it. Although please do tell me if I'm wrong.


When I watch Halo 5 gameplay, I see people sprinting all over huge corridor maps chasing kills.

Which is exactly what Halo 4 was, at it's core.

Basically, play Halo 4 with static weapon spawns, no random ordinance or loadouts/AAs- and then add ADS, and you have Halo 5.

I see the influences of Halo 4, sure, but from the gameplay I've watched I've actually noticed more similarities to Halo 3 only much faster and somewhat more streamlined. I haven't played it yet so I obviously I don't have a full grasp of the game but to me it seems more like an evolution of Halo 3 than it does an evolution of Halo 4. You're free to disagree with that though of course.
 
I don't think 343i should get to make the immersion debate around sprint when they have pulled the covers over their eyes around Zoom/Scoping. The Reticle in Halo is electronic. They link up to your Spartans HUD. When a spartan zooms in, it switches your Helmets Camera feed to your Weapons Camera Feed. When they move the weapon, the Reticle follows where the gun is pointing. If they are going to ignore that canon, that spartan capability in favor of having a spartan do an unnatural move to them -they are trained for speed and efficiency, and lifting the weapon up to your head is not fast nor efficient compared to using their equipment the way it is suppose to be used- then they can't make the "A Spartan should be able to sprint because immersion" debate.

Now that said, I'm keeping an opened mind about Sprint, only because they seem to have maybe come up with a solution to people running away. I'm going to reserve judgement for the beta.
 
my biggest complaint , why you gotta block the screen ??

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Killer

Banned
I don't think 343i should get to make the immersion debate around sprint when they have pulled the covers over their eyes around Zoom/Scoping. The Reticle in Halo is electronic. They link up to your Spartans HUD. When a spartan zooms in, it switches your Helmets Camera feed to your Weapons Camera Feed. When they move the weapon, the Reticle follows where the gun is pointing. If they are going to ignore that canon, that spartan capability in favor of having a spartan do an unnatural move to them -they are trained for speed and efficiency, and lifting the weapon up to your head is not speed nor efficient compared to using their equipment the way it is suppose to be used- then they can't make the a Spartan shouldn't be able to sprint because immersion debate.

Now that said, I'm keeping an opened mind about Sprint, only because they seem to have maybe come up with a solution to people running away. I'm going to reserve judgement for the beta.

bubu but immersion bro, IMMERSION!
 
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