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343 Industries' Josh Holmes explains design decisions in Halo 5

Sprint really doesn't belong in shooters...

Just up the base movement speed and add a walk button, there you go now you have some added depth where people can slow themselves down to hide the sound of their footsteps.

His entire 'add more gameplay/depth' argument for a sprint button makes no sense, just hilariously overselling them copying the cod formula.

It's funny that they're copying cod in a time where cod sales are declining and cod is even dead on pc. Go on copy the game people are sick and tired of while alienating all the fans your IP has, it'll go well for you.
 

Monocle

Member
While I agree, I don't think that means they shouldn't try. I just don't know if sprinting is going to make me feel like a Spartan. I definitely want immersion. The more the better. For campaign. Multiplayer though? Meh . . . Not so much. Hard to be immersed in multiplayer when someone is calling you a fuck face and tea bagging you.
Of course immersion is nice, but it's a ridiculous way to justify mechanics that work against the overall balance.

You're right, even if you wanted an immersive experience in multiplayer, you can't control how other people behave.
 

OverHeat

« generous god »
i was an exclusive Halo player before Destiny. When I went back last month H2A was the most boring shit i'd ever played.

I don't think Destiny is perfect by any means, nor do I think the series needs to go the Reach or Halo 4 route to "evolve". But I sure as hell think that "classic Halo" has not aged well. Unless spawning players out in the open with SMGs is still relevant game design.

I agree with you on all front,.
 

Madness

Member
Because SWAT needs to be more of the focus. It's the best mode in Halo. SWAT is essentially the WiiU of Halo MP modes. It's hurt by it's name and "marketing" more than anything else.

Change the name to Slayer Hardcore and put it third on the list and watch it flourish.

Are you trolling or what? I apologize if I don't understand since it's GAF or what. First you say Halo 3 started the decline, when it was perhaps the most popular and most played Halo ever. Then you say sprint isn't the reason a lot of fans hated the newer games, and that it needs to be there solely for realism, and now you're saying SWAT needs to be the focus for Halo? WHAT?

I love SWAT, it's fun to play, and really helps you get good at quick headshots but it's not Halo at all. It's a stripped down, basically golden gun style mode that completely invalidates almost everything about Halo, from the weapons, to the vehicles, to the grenades etc. It basically turns Halo into a twitch, who sees who shooter.

Heck, something like Richochet has been great for Halo. Complements the game play and sandbox, but adds something beyond just shooting. I'd like a Halo where we have multiple gametypes. But Slayer and Objective are what make Halo first and foremost.
 

E92 M3

Member
threw this together real quick

Vp0x2iw.jpg

That is really funny!
 

cluto

Member
You need more than just sprint to appeal to COD fans. If they were really looking to appeal to them they would have kept all the bullshit from Halo 4 that they seemed to have dropped for this game. Also god forbid we actually play the damned beta and see how these things come together before bitching about them.

That's why they added ADS.
 

Shpeshal Nick

aka Collingwood
You need more than just sprint to appeal to COD fans. If they were really looking to appeal to them they would have kept all the bullshit from Halo 4 that they seemed to have dropped for this game. Also god forbid we actually play the damned beta and see how these things come together before bitching about them.

Again, sprint has nothing to do with it.

The foundation of the entire thing is the TTK. Halo's is too long. Always has been but the console market didn't have another alternative until CoD4 came along. But the "faithful" point to Halo 3 still being "up there" after CoD4 came along as to conveniently blame Reach as the game when the real downfall began.

No, more alternatives just kept coming along to take more attention away from a shooter whose TKK never changed. You don't find it funny that for aaaaaaaaaaall the changes Halo kept going through from 2 onwards, the one thing that never changed was the TTK?
 

Two Words

Member
Sprint is also an action that the vast majority of Halo players expect to be able to utilize in both an offensive and defensive context. I know that this community does not feel that way (or likely believes that statement to be accurate), but the larger Halo community is very diverse and we are building a game for an audience with many different perspectives represented amongst them. Within that larger audience, most people expect to be able to sprint. Particularly as this is the third Halo game to feature the mechanic.

This is basically saying "We know Halo fans don't like this, but we're trying to make this game designed in a way that appeals to as many people as possible and we're willing to sacrifice optimal game design for it."
 
You need more than just sprint to appeal to COD fans. If they were really looking to appeal to them they would have kept all the bullshit from Halo 4 that they seemed to have dropped for this game. Also god forbid we actually play the damned beta and see how these things come together before bitching about them.

They've added ADS and further went dudebro with the IVs with the chatter. Getting there I'd say.

SWAT sucks.

You remove the shield mechanic from Halo and you are robbing the game of one the main things that make it unique. True Halo has to have shields, plain and simple.

SWAT is there basically for people that can't stand losing battles constantly even when shooting first.

Shield mechanic is hardly the one unique thing.
Anyway, shooting first doesn't matter if you can't aim in SWAT. Situation awareness and aiming, if you got it you'll have fun in SWAT. I like SWAT.
 
Again, sprint has nothing to do with it.

The foundation of the entire thing is the TTK. Halo's is too long. Always has been but the console market didn't have another alternative until CoD4 came along. But the "faithful" point to Halo 3 still being "up there" after CoD4 came along as to conveniently blame Reach as the game when the real downfall began.

No, more alternatives just kept coming along to take more attention away from a shooter whose TKK never changed. You don't find it funny that for aaaaaaaaaaall the changes Halo kept going through from 2 onwards, the one thing that never changed was the TTK?

Halo CE had fast kill times and the competitive halo community wants that back, but the devs have slowed them down and added a bunch of defensive abilities to make them even slower. Reach has the slowest movement (sprint nonwithstanding) and slowest kill times.

As someone pointed above, SWAT is a niche game mode and making it the default Halo TTK invalidates everything about the game in the first place, so that's not happening. But bumping the TTK up between CE and Halo 2 would be a step in the right direction. Fast TTK alone is a good counter to Sprint.
 

Two Words

Member
They've added ADS and further went dudebro with the IVs with the chatter. Getting there I'd say.



Shield mechanic is hardly the one unique thing.
Anyway, shooting first doesn't matter if you can't aim in SWAT. Situation awareness and aiming, if you got it you'll have fun in SWAT. I like SWAT.
Uhh I don't know how you can ignore how much more see first/kill first is a part of SWAT...
 

RSB

Banned
After Playing so many hours of Destiny going back to MCC ( H1 H2 H3) is an eyes opener I do not want to play a shooter were mobility is so basic anymore.
Funny, to me, going back to Halo after playing Destiny for two months felt absolutely amazing. Sure, the mobility is much more limited, but at least Halo doesn't force me to be a sitting duck when I need to use my gun (with any kind of accuracy) In Halo I can actually use the mobility options and the offensive options at the same time without any penalty, which is great.

Destiny's core gameplay is ok (definetly better than every other forced ADS shooter in the market) but it would be so much better if Bungie removed all those ridiculous accuracy penalties (and the movement speed penalty when ADSing too of course) Maybe for Destiny 2...
 

OverHeat

« generous god »
Funny, to me, going back to Halo after playing Destiny for two months felt absolutely amazing. Sure, the mobility is much more limited, but at least Halo doesn't force me to be a sitting duck when I need to use my gun (with any kind of accuracy) In Halo I can actually use the mobility options and the offensive options at the same time without any penalty, which is great.

Destiny's core gameplay is ok (definetly better than every other forced ADS shooter in the market) but it would be so much better if Bungie removed all those ridiculous accuracy penalties (and the movement speed penalty when ADSing too of course) Maybe for Destiny 2...

343i is doing that with H5
 

Juanfp

Member
Can at least wait wait to the game to release before to start criticizing it.
And with what they are doing with the beta, I can really see that they would emd eliminating the "ADS" and that spartan chatter.
 

BTM

Member
Bring it on. I'm actually excited for H5. Random drops and unequal starts were the major missteps of Halo 4, not sprint.
 

RSB

Banned
Halo CE had fast kill times and the competitive halo community wants that back, but the devs have slowed them down and added a bunch of defensive abilities to make them even slower. Reach has the slowest movement (sprint nonwithstanding) and slowest kill times.

As someone pointed above, SWAT is a niche game mode and making it the default Halo TTK invalidates everything about the game in the first place, so that's not happening. But bumping the TTK up between CE and Halo 2 would be a step in the right direction. Fast TTK alone is a good counter to Sprint.
Halo CE did it very well IMO. The ideal TTK was very fast, but the average TTK was noticeably longer. Most modern shooters, sadly, have very similar ideal and average TTK, which is bad.

343i is doing that with H5
No, they don't need to remove them, Halo never had them in the first place (thank god)
 

abadguy

Banned
They've added ADS and further went dudebro with the IVs with the chatter. Getting there I'd say.



Shield mechanic is hardly the one unique thing.
Anyway, shooting first doesn't matter if you can't aim in SWAT. Situation awareness and aiming, if you got it you'll have fun in SWAT. I like SWAT.

Cosmetic ADS that doesn't even need to be used. The reason people who hate ADS hate it is because of the penalty for hip fire by making it less accurate. From what we've seen that ain't the case in H5. I wouldn't mind if we could toggle it with classic zoom but if we can't it doesn't matter since i can still play as i have been in any other Halo game.

I don't even know what's supposed to constitute a "dudebro" but spartan chatter as in calling out enemy positions or announcing when they've picked up a weapon doesn't really bother me. Seems useful if someone doesn't have a mic.


Bring it on. I'm actually excited for H5. Random drops and unequal starts were the major missteps of Halo 4, not sprint.

This.
 

watership

Member
After playing Halo 4 mp matches lately, especially BTB, sprint is completely fine. No shield recharge while sprinting mechanic in H5 will make things interesting. Regarding change in Halo, you can't keep making the same game over and over again. Halo 1-3 have been made. Halo 4 MP with weapon drops and loadouts was a mistake but the gunplay, and movement was great.
 

OverHeat

« generous god »
Money talk guys, if you don't like it don't buy it. Then will see if all halo fans want to go back to the old gameplay style if the game fail at retail ;)
 

Peterpan

Member
In the fact that this beta can be done closer to launch and changes would be the same? Yes.
Then just don't play it. Most of you haven't even given it a chance and it's already bullshit. No you don't know that and can't say that as a fact that nothing will change. As most of these people can't say for a fact that the game is crappy.
Before most of you even read the article you made up your mind about what you were going to say, or am I lying?
 

Madness

Member
Again, sprint has nothing to do with it.

The foundation of the entire thing is the TTK. Halo's is too long. Always has been but the console market didn't have another alternative until CoD4 came along. But the "faithful" point to Halo 3 still being "up there" after CoD4 came along as to conveniently blame Reach as the game when the real downfall began.

No, more alternatives just kept coming along to take more attention away from a shooter whose TKK never changed. You don't find it funny that for aaaaaaaaaaall the changes Halo kept going through from 2 onwards, the one thing that never changed was the TTK?

I agree that slightly faster kill times are needed. But that's not the reason for Halo's decline. It started with Reach which took things even further than Halo 3. Sure they added sprint but they made base movement even slower than Halo 3. They gave you a mini sniper in the DMR. CE lovers rejoiced at a long range utility, single shot weapon, but with high aim assist, bloom, and slow strafe and movement speeds, it basically meant people would ping each other at distance back and forth. Just try and get someone to play Hemorrhage in Reach. Then add in the shit mechanics of Jetpack and Armor Lock. Armor lock which would make you invincible to everything, Jetpack that would allow you to basically just run roughshod over the map design.

Couple all this with poor post launch support and you can see why Reach sucked. No universal ranks, just Arena which wasn't properly established. Weird ass title updates that either removed bloom, reduced it, basically split the player base with the CEA maps and game play, etc. Removed squad slayer, poor maps where most were Forge remakes. It just wasn't a good game and you finally saw Halo fans step back from the series. Whatever Halo CE fans felt about 2 and 3, they still played those games. But for once, people would rather not play Halo than play it.

And then came Halo 4. Instead of thinking they learned from Reach, they take it one step further. Adding in more armor abilities, making sprint universal, instant respawn which meant someone could die, respawn and sprint back and kill the player who killed him before his Shields even recharged, global ordnance which meant randomly weapons would be placed on match. One team can get a fuel rod Cannon near base, another could get a needler. Personal ordnance where you could have 2 snipers in play, 2 rockets, binary rifle, Spartan laser. Basically making each map a heavies. Why go and play in the map when I can camp and just get assists and call down power weapons at my feet.

The worst is perhaps load outs and perks which essentially broke the game. Close quarters combat thrown out the window by allowing people the boltshot which before nerf was basically a shotgun at all times. Perks like ammo which meant you could get like 6 incineration Cannon shots. Stealth coupled with active camo meant you could basically be invisible to players at will. Wait till sniper is available in personal ordnance, die, respawn with camo/Stealth and you are basically an invisible sniper. Plasma pistol and plasma grenade load outs also mean vehicle combat was gone as you could easily destroy anything. Oh, you sprint in, are about to die, throw a plasma as a martyr, die and then respawn and do it again etc.

Game play was no longer about skill, but random elements of luck and chance. Matches decided in menus rather than on the field.
 

El_Chino

Member
After playing Halo 4 mp matches lately, especially BTB, sprint is completely fine. No shield recharge while sprinting mechanic in H5 will make things interesting. Regarding change in Halo, you can't keep making rye same game over and over again. Halo 1-3 have been made. Halo 4 MP with weapon drops and loadouts was a mistake but the gunplay, and movement was great.
I agree. I feel bad for 343i because no matter how much they try to evolve Halo's multilayer they will get shit for it. Bungie's last Halo game they tired something new and got hell for it. At the end of the day, people just want Halo 2/3 multilayer over and over again which in my opinion is no better then having CoD's recycled multilayer. If you really think about it, that's the sad truth.

No one can satisfy Halo's fanbase anymore it seems.
 
People need to realize that map design is important in speeding up gameplay. Is there a need for sprint in wizard/warlock/warlord? No because the map is small, there are great sight lines with a power up to fight for, and there are teleporters. On the other hand, Lockout can slow the slayer games down immensely depending on certain set ups.


Sprint affects map size by making them larger. Sure you can sprint to cover ground faster, but it's not like you can shoot at the same time and grenades need to be more precise (or larger blast radius) with the extra space in certain areas. It just makes more sense to increase the base movement speed, make maps smaller, and try balancing the maps (through layout and power weapon/up spawns) so games don't become stalemates. Remove radar to promote movement as well.

Sprint is understandable on larger maps because it takes a while to get into the action if not in a vehicle, but just seems unnecessary in smaller maps.


People are open to changes in Halo's gameplay, but it needs to be done in a balanced way that adds to Halo's core arena gameplay. At this point, Sprint has failed to do this in the past two Halos.
 
Since MC has a minor role apparently they should just write him out and call this game "The Guardian" and then this will be the new "halo".
 

cluto

Member
Cosmetic ADS that doesn't even need to be used. The reason people who hate ADS hate it is because of the penalty for hip fire by making it less accurate. From what we've seen that ain't the case in H5. I wouldn't mind if we could toggle it with classic zoom but if we can't it doesn't matter since i can still play as i have been in any other Halo game.

The argument you made was "they need more than sprint to appeal to CoD fans." Halo 5 has sprint and ADS -- those are two decently sized chunks of the CoD formula. Also, aiming down sights or not aiming down sights in Halo 5 isn't exactly the same because the SMG's spread is tighter when aimed, and I can't imagine that's the only example.
 
What does that have to do with anything related to what Josh said?

If you want to change how the game is played and turn it into something entirely different then just rebrand it. If you took MC and the Spartan armor out of Halo 3, I'd still be able to recognize that the game plays like Halo. Based off what's been said if you take that out of Halo 5 you wouldn't feel it's a Halo game. People will see MC and the Spartans and think "Halo" but the gameplay doesn't seem to be representative of Halo.
 

Welfare

Member
Then just don't play it. Most of you haven't even given it a chance and it's already bullshit. No you don't know that and can't say that as a fact that nothing will change. As most of these people can't say for a fact that the game is crappy.
Before most of you even read the article you made up your mind about what you were going to say, or am I lying?
I was pretty open to what 343 had to offer with Halo 5, as long as they realized what the majority of Halo fans wanted, but after this, meh.

I will still play the beta, but I'm just pointing out they could have it later in 2015 and the outcome from said beta would be the same.
 

Madness

Member
I agree. I feel bad for 343i because no matter how much they try to evolve Halo's multilayer they will get shit for it. Bungie's last Halo game they tired something new and got hell for it. At the end of the day, people just want Halo 2/3 multilayer over and over again which in my opinion is no better then having CoD's recycled multilayer. If you really think about it, that's the sad truth.

No one can satisfy Halo's fanbase anymore it seems.

With Halo 5, we'll have as many Halo games with radical changes than the classic game play. No-one wants Halo 2 and Halo 3 identically over and over. But you don't change up the game play radically. Look at Halo CE, to Halo 2 to Halo 3 and then look at Reach, to Halo 4 to Halo 5.

I agree 343 are in a hard place. That's what happens when you have a mature series. But series should always stick to their roots. If CoD is such a bad game having the same game every year, why is it still #1 in sales? Halo fans haven't been happy with the last two releases, so rather than make them happy, it's more of the same in a sense. If Halo 5 is bad or also dies down quickly after launch, then what? Halo 6 we have the same cycle of, Halo 2 game play is old etc.

If 343 wants to make their own shooter series, go ahead. Call it ONI: Guardians. Why does Halo have to be shadow of what it was?
 

cluto

Member
I agree. I feel bad for 343i because no matter how much they try to evolve Halo's multilayer they will get shit for it. Bungie's last Halo game they tired something new and got hell for it. At the end of the day, people just want Halo 2/3 multilayer over and over again which in my opinion is no better then having CoD's recycled multilayer. If you really think about it, that's the sad truth.

No one can satisfy Halo's fanbase anymore it seems.

This argument gets brought up in every Halo criticism thread (including earlier in this thread). Halo fans aren't opposed to change. We're opposed to bad change or change for the sake of change. No one complained about vehicle-boarding back in 2004 because it is a perfect example of a change that improves the Halo formula. It makes sense in Halo because it adds another bridge between infantry and vehicle combat. No one complained about the addition of moving geometry and interactive elements in multiplayer maps. No one complained about theater because it was an excellent system for saving and recording memorable moments. Gravity lifts instead of ladders and mancannons instead of teleporters were also (in my opinion) great changes.

These bad changes that we keep bitching about are being implemented because they're modern trends, not because they improve the Halo formula -- usually they have the opposite effect. We want more changes in the same vein as vehicle-boarding. I'd like to see more:
  • Creative and interesting weapons
  • Creative and interesting vehicles
  • Creative and interesting enemies
  • Creative and interesting encounters
  • Creative and interesting set pieces
  • Creative and interesting multiplayer maps
  • Creative and interesting gametypes
  • Creative and interesting gameplay mechanics that reinforce Halo's strengths
But apparently that's asking too much.
 

Peterpan

Member
I was pretty open to what 343 had to offer with Halo 5, as long as they realized what the majority of Halo fans wanted, but after this, meh.

I will still play the beta, but I'm just pointing out they could have it later in 2015 and the outcome from said beta would be the same.
Josh Holmes needs to get a PR person or really keep quiet though. I could have told him half of what he said was not going to fly, for free, I mean really 'crowd pleaser' smh. I am more skeptical after this, but I am going to go in with an open mind, then again I never been a 'hardcore' Halo multiplayer fan. Though me and my friends who I play local with and online with do have a feel of what is fun or not and COD for us in not fun.
 

BTM

Member
These bad changes that we keep bitching about are being implemented because they're modern trends, not because they improve the Halo formula -- usually they have the opposite effect. We want more changes in the same vein as vehicle-boarding. I'd like to see more:
  • Creative and interesting weapons
  • Creative and interesting vehicles
  • Creative and interesting enemies
  • Creative and interesting encounters
  • Creative and interesting set pieces
  • Creative and interesting multiplayer maps
  • Creative and interesting gametypes
  • Creative and interesting gameplay mechanics that reinforce Halo's strengths
But apparently that's asking too much.

Who says these things aren't happening?
 
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