Yeah do I really want to read something purportedly found out or just some insane ramblings. A TLDR would do!
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A Scar No One Else Can See - Max Landis on Carly Rae Jepsen
- Thread starter Skiptastic
- Start date
Yeah do I really want to read something purportedly found out or just some insane ramblings. A TLDR would do!
Jesus, that poor woman :-(
Edit: I was somewhat curious about the 150 page screed from a Hollywood eccentric, but now I'm just disgusted by this guy. I'm out.
Wow. That's shocking. He doesn't give a shit, nothing to do with him as far as he is concerned.
It's pretty evident in the film that he makes the shot because of the force, not because he can transfer his rodent shooting skills from a backwater town into an active warzone while his ghost uncle natters on in Luke's ear.
There's no exaggeration because it's a flimsy ass justification that even the conceit of the scene relies on to show that it's really the space magic that made it work.
And before that, he instantly mastered sensing lasers from a robot drone with minimal instructions.
Luke's relationship with the force is largely "Shit, this is impossible." and then the mentor figure goes "Nah, it's fine" and then he does it and goes "oh shit, it's working"
neverknowsbest
Member
It's condescending because he's talking down to the author, he's telling her what her words mean, because obviously he can see what she can't, because he's MAX LANDIS, underrated genius observer of people and discoverer of emotions.
It's self-centered because it's entirely about his interpretation of her work, and how special it is, and how special he is for having seen it when nobody else could. Look at the way the work is presented.
It's egotistical because he thinks his flawed, obsessive, paranoid theory is the one true way to see her body of work.
It's about intelligence over empathy because he's obviously put a lot of time and energy into the development of his theory and the collection of purported evidence, but he doesn't care about the only thing that is relevant: her actual feelings. Which he knows nothing about, and doesn't care about, because if he did, he would understand that she's not hiding some cryptic story about the sadness of her love life in her lyrics. Because only egotistical assholes claim to know other people's feelings better than they do.
I'm not saying that all art criticism is bad, and I believe that interpretation of art is dependent on the reader, but there's a limit to what you can say while still being in the realm of reality, and this goes way beyond that. It's the difference between having an interpretation of what a work means, and telling people what they are feeling. One is great, and interesting, and can be educational and elucidating about the creator's intent, and the other is being an egotistical asshole.
dantevsninjas
Member
You're literally just describing pop music...
It's the force + luke's skills. Plus literally half of ESB is all about Luke training to be better at using the force rather than just already being an expert at it
radios shipping overview
Member
C-c-c-c-c-cocaine
Max Landis struggles with bipolar disorder (specifically cyclothymia). I don't know why everyone chalks his behavior up to cocaine.
Rumblebones
Banned
Comparing Luke to Rey seems so disingenuous when you compare their feats.
Rey humiliated Kylo, a life long Force adept that studied under Luke Skywalker, literally on her first try.
There's no comparing that to the son of literal Force Jesus being able to block some shots in a safe environment under the tutelage of Obi and concentrate to make a shot he confidently claims he's made many times before back home.
But whatever. I don't think the Mary Sue argument regarding Rey will bear any fruit. There's no point. Little girls all over the world have one more positive bit of representation, that's what matters to me.
Rey humiliated Kylo, a life long Force adept that studied under Luke Skywalker, literally on her first try.
There's no comparing that to the son of literal Force Jesus being able to block some shots in a safe environment under the tutelage of Obi and concentrate to make a shot he confidently claims he's made many times before back home.
But whatever. I don't think the Mary Sue argument regarding Rey will bear any fruit. There's no point. Little girls all over the world have one more positive bit of representation, that's what matters to me.
Yeah, and The Last Jedi is set to be about Rey training to become an expert at the force herself.
My point isn't that Luke is shit and his force abilities are 100% unearned. But he does gain proficiency rather easily, with minimal instructions and minimal training time, even as an absolute noob who hasn't learned which end of the lightsaber to hold.
The problem is that when Luke does it, he's just being the protagonist and no one minds it, but when Rey does it, she's being a Sue, which is what makes it a sexist trope, which is the original point being made. It applies a double standard between genders.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Y'all literally cannot help yourselves can ya.
Rumblebones
Banned
Look in the mirror, Bobby.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Now you're just being disingenuous. Luke didn't end up being proficient enough with the Force to mind control people or beat a trained Jedi in a duel by the end of the first movie. You literally point out how Luke is a noob who can barely swing a lightsaber, while glossing over Rey's immediate expertise. That's the issue. There's no curve with Rey, like there was with Luke.
Calling her out for being a sue is dumb/sexist, but her character has flaws. Which is a shame, because Max Landis inadvertently made it really hard to point them out because of his dumb criticisms, heh.
I've been familiar with the phrase since my days of writing shitty fanfiction and forum RPs as a teenager - and while it may indeed be used to belittle the characterisation of a female protagonist, you're almost entirely wrong on its origins. The original Mary Sue was, yes, the protagonist of a fanfiction written by a woman (fanfiction being, then and now, a majority female endeavour) - but written as a parody of what she saw as a trend of poor characterisation. If it's mainly applied to female characters, that'll be because that's what you get for self-inserts from (shitty) women writers.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
So how is what I wrote "almost entirely wrong" when you're basically further explaining how it has almost always been unfairly applied to women, and used as such in the time since it was created?
The fact another woman was judging women doesn't somehow erase its usage/intent from that point forward. The presence of a woman either next to or behind sexism doesn't negate/erase that sexism. That's essentially the same argument that suggests a misogynist can't really be misogynist because he has a wife and daughters.
Her parodical criticisms, however well-intentioned they might have been initially, were essentially picked up and run with by people as a means to specifically shit on women and their forays into genre by holding their attempts to a much higher standard than most genre readers would ever think to apply to their favorite male authors, and the term was used as such for almost its entire existence, and still is, hence the conversation we're having right now.
(thank you for dropping the "ummm" bullshit, it's appreciated)
Nah, GAF already had the war of "The Death of the Author - the Author lost. Not only does the reader get to decide what the author means, but we get to decide what they feel, smell, ate for breakfast, and how tight their pants are. And it doesn't even matter if what we think is correct, right, factual, sane, or based in reality because we're all special consumers with special thoughts and our special opinions hold the same weight, if not more so, than the people who actually make art.
Also, regardless of Max's stated motivations and intentions, he obviously wanted people to talk about his work - whether they actually bothered to read it or not. Goal: success.
You're wrong in that she wasn't being mocked *for*, she was mocking *with* - and if you think it's almost always unfairly applied, you clearly haven't read nearly enough shit.
Also, I started my first post with "Um.." as a reflection of speaking patterns, haven't done so before on this site, and don't really know where the fuck you get off ranting on it like a douchebag? Maybe show us on the doll where the bad interjection touched you and chill the fuck out?
4 is a cutie
Banned
How do you plan on proving most Mary Sue claims are legitimate?
JeTmAn81
Member
Seven themes? She's beating the average pop singer by about five themes
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Being somewhat familiar with Max Landis and his personality, I wouldn't be even vaguely surprised if this is part of Max's romantic comedy scheme to try to hook up with Carly Rae Jepsen.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I never said she was mocked at all. I'm saying that her mocking, whatever positive intentions she might have had in making those criticisms, got essentially hijacked by men primarily as a very useful tool for keeping women in genre fiction & fandom down.
Her use of the term was easily (and has been continually) used as a means for men to suggest that women heroes, women writers, etc. are somehow lesser than their male counterparts and that their victories are diminished de-legitimized by dint of their "illogical" and/or "fantastical" routes to success.
So they did. And have done so, and continue to do so. The number of women shitting on other women for being/writing Mary Sues is very, very small now, and there's a reason for that. It's because whatever positives the term might have had got almost instantly poisoned, and that poison has been splashed around like Joker in an Art Museum for longer than you've likely been alive. It's sexist in nature, and has been almost from the second it was invented. It at its core suggests women can't do what men get to do whenever they feel like it without having some sort of iron-clad justification for it that men are never asked to provide at the same frequency.
UMMM I rescind my prior thanks then LOL
dragonchild
Banned
No, it's not. You can quantify aspects of music; in fact you have to be able to because that is what sheet music is. You literally cannot read or write music without quantifying it. Musicians have to understand things like dynamics, pitch, tempo, time signature, instrumentation, etc. Music includes a method to break these down into explicit instructions so composers can clearly communicate to performers how a piece should be played. If you can read music, you can assess how rich or bland it is, even if there's no sheet to read, because the concepts still apply. And pop music -- including CRJ's, but to be fair it's almost all of it -- is all extremely limited in its use of musical concepts.
itwasTuesday
He wasn't alone.
Bullet points
- I like futura, it gave the social network umf. those ? are dumb though
- The album is called E.mo.tion. ¿meta¿
- Max+GF eating tofu ramen in his youtube reply is an of course that's what hes eating moment
- emotion is good and this is a deep dive I can find the fun in reading, and maybe you should too.
- Bullet points are a pain in bbcode
lmao this is the silliest thing I've ever read. You have an extremely poor grasp of creativity
PeskyToaster
Member
Yes. Every song and even covers are discussed.
The gist of the piece is that all of Carly Rae Jepsen's songs are about a flirty relationship with a platonic friend who's already with someone else turns serious and then subject of the song retracts from the relationship leaving the singer sad. The love is secret, it is a bit obsessive, and there's a desire to escape from everything else. Usually the subject is unresponsive or unaware of the advances/plans the singer has. He also talks about some reoccurring sub-themes, motifs I guess with driving and parties and stuff. He basically made an overarching story that covers the 7 themes and can put every Carly Rae Jepsen song into acts or combination of two subsequent acts of the story. Kinda neat, more than a bit weird, uncomfortable really.
Nah, removing the Force from the equation, Luke's miracle shot on the Death Star is thousands of times less plausible than someone trained in staff combat being able to hold off a badly wounded opponent who doesn't even want to seriously injure her. Adding the Force in, it's fucking magic and there are no rules so who gives a shit? If Rey was a male character nobody would ever have batted an eye at that scene.
dragonchild
Banned
Tell us what creativity is, then. All you have here is condescending arrogance, backed by nothing.
Lord British
Member
I'm not a musician, I have no interest in reading or writing music. If this is what being a musician would do to my ability to listen to and enjoy music, I'm good. I'm happy to be ignorant, objectively wrong, whatever. I'll be over here dancing. 👌
That's great and all. But guess what, most people would describe your kind of complex music as boring. Orchestras have to play the same old classics over and over to get revenue.
So what if they're limited in use of concepts?
Voice is an instrument. The words convey meaning. And it's funny how you talk about sheet music. Because if you had a good music teacher they would have taught you that playing sheet music robotically isn't good.
Music is about feeling, good music invokes emotion.
It is art and it is subjective.
To say that a piece is "objectively bland" just conveys your elitist attitude, nothing else.
A 3 week manic episode would absolutely be the sort of thing that would inspire doing something like this.
Puck Beaverton
Banned
A: Max Landis is the worst
Q: Who is Max Landis?
Q: Who is Max Landis?
I know everyone's experience is different and I can't presume to know your own, but I've witnessed comparably baffling and exhaustive undertakings during a hypomanic/manic episode. I can't assume that this is the cause of this particular tome, but I think it's a more likely explanation than cracking wise about cocaine.
benicillin
Banned
He actively addresses that, actually.
I'm not going to go into a debate on the concept of creativity, but your post comes off like a parody. First off, knowledge of music theory absolutely isn't a prerequisite to making music. More importantly though, you absolutely can't asses how 'rich or bland' a piece of music based on it's sheet. At best, you're conflating technicality with complication.
You can't win with these people. They actually think Luke blowing up a military base the size of a moon with a single missile(this was his first time in a fighter jet, just to add to the ridiculousness of it all) is more "realistic" than Rey beating Kylo Ren in a fight. People fall back on the film just telling us Luke is a good shot because he is able to shoot small critters back home but then completely disregard that TFA shows that Rey has grown up in a hostile environment and has learned how to handle herself.
As for this bit of insanity from Max Landis, did he really just write 150 pages of this? A single sentence can sum up why her music is noticeably different from her contemporaries: "She, or at least her musical identity, is an introvert."
itwasTuesday
He wasn't alone.
- I can't
- I can't
- I can't
Hrmm, Ariel.
Dash_Riprock
Member
Max Landis truly is the personification of everything wrong with millenials.