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[Rolf NB]

Or maybe it's because there's enough there to interpret. You can't really interpret 7 or 9 like this.

FF VII: Cloud dies when he falls from the railing in the Mako reactor. He never actually hits Aerith's flower bed. At that point, he is already dead and the rest of the game is his fantasy about how his journey might have continued, had he not died then and there.

FF IX: Zidane freezes to death in the frozen caves. He never actually fights the first Tenor. At that point, he is already dead and the rest of the game is his fantasy about how his journey might have continued, had he not died then and there.

 

[Gilgamesh]

But keep in mind that during the entire game..they are impaled, burned alive, and eaten by monsters..yet they survive the battles and move on. Just look in Final Fantasy VII..how the characters ae slashed and killed multiple times yet eveyrthing's solved with a Phoenix Down..yet they couldn't use a Phoenix Down when Aerith was killed?..

That's exactly it, though. Squall received an ice spear through his chest in a cutscene, thus subjecting him to the same "cutscene rules" as Aerith.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

That's exactly it, though. Squall received an ice spear through his chest in a cutscene, thus subjecting him to the same "cutscene rules" as Aerith.

This is common in final fantasy games. Things that happen in cutscenes are in no way the same as things that happen during battles, obviously, as it would ruin 70% of the major plot related things that happen, possibly more.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

FF VII: Cloud dies when he falls from the railing in the Mako reactor. He never actually hits Aerith's flower bed. At that point, he is already dead and the rest of the game is his fantasy about how his journey might have continued, had he not died then and there.

FF IX: Zidane freezes to death in the frozen caves. He never actually fights the first Tenor. At that point, he is already dead and the rest of the game is his fantasy about how his journey might have continued, had he not died then and there.

The problem with this is in those games, besides the basic premise you just outlined in one sentence, there is no real evidence to back up the claim in any way that one would deem even half acceptable.

the events of ff8 on the other hand can definitely lend itself to obscure trains of thought, for the most part.

edit: Also, those worlds, at least FF7 has been thoroughly explained by way of prequel/sequel material.

 

[Scythesurge]

Your theory seems to hinge too much on the existence of things YOU think are silly and out of place. Like this is a way to somehow justify those goofy elements in a way meaningful to you. There is only one way to find out if you're on to something, like a plot thread that was later changed or something, or just crazy, and that's to ask. Hopefully someone in the press thinks this is cool enough to bring up sometime. I have a feeling the answers you'd get would be far more practical than you'd like to hear though.

That's Edea's eye at the end of disc 1 btw, not Squalls. They focus on it to show you the creepy shadow in her eye (to imply the Ultimecia possession maybe?) You can see the same shadow on the pupil from the zoomed out shots as well.

Yeah that's definitely Edea's eye, though I don't think that changes the theory.

 

[fernoca]

That's exactly it, though. Squall received an ice spear through his chest in a cutscene, thus subjecting him to the same "cutscene rules" as Aerith.

True.. :lol :lol
Like in Halo 3 ODST, the entire game they getting shot and hit with hammers..but they use a first aid and ..there, like new..but in one cutscene a character is hit with a hammer and his weak for the rest of the game..heck there were first aids close to him, why not just use one..

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

But right after that Squall says.

"No wound?"

Which is why this theory can be at least half plausible

 

[rainer516]

You're exaggerating. You may not agree, but it's going a bit far to say that the theories (sorry, hypotheses) presented in the article are "unbacked". They're speculative, but there's a clear line of thought leading to them.

Yes, sloppy thinking and faulty logic. Look, you seem like a smart guy, that is why I took the time to reply to your post seriously. But your statement is underdetermined, your theory has an indeterminacy of data to support your logical flow.

(A theory is underdetermined if, given the available evidence, there is a rival theory which is inconsistent with the theory that is at least as consistent with the evidence.)

Don't take this as a personal attack, but rather as an excuse to go back and work out what you did and re-evaluate your accepted conclusion. Your entire squallisdead site reads like a thoughtful analysis of cherry picked data points that you've strained to connect. Perhaps you'll make a good economist for a Washington DC think tank some day.

"Don't take this as a personal attack, but you'd make a good economist". I'm sorry?

For all your claims of believing I'm a "smart guy" you sure take on a condescending tone. Come back when you have something constructive to add as opposed to just using long words.

I have no intention of re-evaluating my conclusion. You can agree with it or not, no problem. But don't bring it to this level, that just undermines your own credibility.

I gave you a background on logic structures.
I pointed out the holes in your argument and objectively told you where you went wrong.

I took the time to define every obtuse term I used.
And since when is using correct terminology "big words"?

I don't know what else constructive means

I was just pointing out the shortcomings with your statement and opening it for discussion.


ps: And how is being an economist an insult?

 

[HamPster PamPster]

But right after that Squall says.

"No wound?"

Is there any evidence that this isn't just a bad translation?

Lets not forget the FF right before this was tactics...

Spoiler

I still prefer the old FFT translation over the one! Don't blame eden squall... blame yourself or god!

 

[Rahul]

Oops wrong thread

 

[bounchfx]

I already liked ff8, but this theory makes it way cooler.


although..

Personally, I've spent several years exploring the realities of this theory,

O_O

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

Is there any evidence that this isn't just a bad translation?

Lets not forget the FF right before this was tactics...

Spoiler

I still prefer the old FFT translation over the one! Don't blame eden squall... blame yourself or god!

Pretty sure it's a good translation. He just got impaled with ice and then wakes up clutching his body and wonders how it's possible, in disbelief, that he has no wound.

 

[Adam Prime]

FF VII: Cloud dies when he falls from the railing in the Mako reactor. He never actually hits Aerith's flower bed. At that point, he is already dead and the rest of the game is his fantasy about how his journey might have continued, had he not died then and there.

FF IX: Zidane freezes to death in the frozen caves. He never actually fights the first Tenor. At that point, he is already dead and the rest of the game is his fantasy about how his journey might have continued, had he not died then and there.

I loved this theory and this thread right up until this post! :lol

Seriously, though the only thing that might be able to support this crazy theory are the crazy ending FMVs, and like the person said above me "according to FMV rules" Squall suffers a fatal wound.

I support this theory... but at the same time I agree it's giving too much credit to the game.

 

[Rahul]

I don't really agree with this analysis. The only thing that disturbs me about FF8's plot is the orphanage plot twist. If someone could just explain that portion to me in a way that its not a cheap plot trick that completely throws the story apart, I'd be content with the game.

Squall makes it up because it makes him feel better about his youth. He's lonely. Wouldn't it be great if it turned out that all his friends were as close to a family as he'd ever had?

- What is the symbol in the middle of Squall's eye in this picture? I'm having a brain fart.

That image is used at the end of Disc 1. I think it's an upside down reflection of Rinoa looking down at him from the float.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

No it doesn't. Why can Riona live for thousands of years?

Because she's a witch, duh....

I think Rinoa's being Ultimecia makes more sense, than Squall's last seconds fantasy.And actually the game give more clues to that theory.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

I loved this theory and this thread right up until this post! :lol

Seriously, though the only thing that might be able to support this crazy theory are the crazy ending FMVs, and like the person said above me "according to FMV rules" Squall suffers a fatal wound.

I support this theory... but at the same time I agree it's giving too much credit to the game.

And I personally think we give too much credit to Shakespeare and they think I'm crazy!

Spoiler

not comparing shakespeare to kitase/nojima/whoever

 

[Rahul]

Of course you can make up the same for Zidane, Terra, Cloud, Tidus and whomever. But their characters don't connect. Squall has always been the emo, introvert kid who doesn't fit in. That's why this story makes so much sense. For Cloud and the others it wouldn't have, as much.

 

[Freshmaker]

Because she's a witch, duh....

None of the others lived that long.

I think Rinoa's being Ultimecia makes more sense, than Squall's last seconds fantasy.And actually the game give more clues to that theory.

The most I can potentially see as a viable theory is that Ultimecia is Squall and Riona's descendant. That'd explain why she has Greiver, and why she liked the sorceress and knight story so much til it turned on her.

Them killing their great great great granddaughter ought to win some dark emo points from the theory lovin' crowd too. :lol

 

[Tylahedras]

Like a lot of other people in this thread this strikes me more as an attempt to salvage some sense of purpose from messy poorly thought out prose.

Never the less it's a cool argument and I want to try playing the game with that in mind all the way through to see how well it holds up. Clearly you put thought and effort into your argument, and it shows.

Kudos.

I wish the other weird conspiracy theory esq notions about this game were as well thought out and supported.

 

[2San]

You guys are looking waayy wayyy to much into things. Likewise with Rinoa = Ultimecia theory makes no sense either. Just take it for what it is, sure it had plot holes which story doesnt?

Trust me if anything like this was remotely true the devs woulda explained it by now.

 

[Rahul]

Likewise with Rinoa = Ultimecia theory makes no sense either

You're right, R=U makes no sense. How does this one not make any sense, however?

 

[Moobabe]

But your statement is underdetermined, your theory has an indeterminacy of data to support your logical flow.

(A theory is underdetermined if, given the available evidence, there is a rival theory which is inconsistent with the theory that is at least as consistent with the evidence.)

I gave you a background on logic structures.
I pointed out the holes in your argument and objectively told you where you went wrong.

I took the time to define every obtuse term I used.
And since when is using correct terminology "big words"?

I was just pointing out the shortcomings with your statement and opening it for discussion.

It doesn't sound like you're being constructive, though I agree with you; it does read like he's cherry picked some arguments. Though, maybe his theory is "undetermined" but by your very definition the opposition theory that casts his into doubt is also undetermined surely?

Until we get word one way or another on the "reality" of the plot then his theory is just as plausible as anyone else's. I don't see too many people picking things out that go against his reading of the game.

 

[Lost Fragment]

Alright. I just finished reading the whole thing.

And while it's definitely an interesting theory that I've never thought about before, uh, Occam's razor.

 

[rainer516]

You know this is all well and good, but you gotta THINK BIGGER picture with the abstractions.


So the world of FF8 has 2 super powers. One to the east and one to the west.

The one to the east is a technologically advanced civilization, it's stayed isolated from the entire world, it was held back in some tech aspects but progressed in others. Too bad it was held back by traditional leadership. Ofcourse, this ruthless leadership has no support at all from the population. But this all changed when a bunch of folk from the big super power to the West invaded and tricked the Japa... I mean Esthar to give up their traditional rule.

But instead of rejecting rule from a westerner, the Esthar folk gladly accepted it. Now fast forward to the future. Esthar is a sleeping giant of technological marvel, the rest of the world just can't see it yet, because they are hiding their best tech behind the cloaking device that they also developed due to their advanced ways.

Oh wait, the big superpower that defeated/helped/tricked them back in World Sorceress War 2 now wants to start up again and is showing aggression world wide, bombing and sanctioning small countries, all because the leader of Galbadia is going behind his nation's back and having cigar meetings with some strange lady, who is also magical just like Monica Lewinsky.

But the Easterners had an idea a long time ago, they would send their best war orphans abroad to study the things most needed by the folks back home. Even if the SEEDs lose their way, they get back to Esthar eventually and then everyone bands together and defeat the United States... I mean Galbadia.

I guess if you can ever get past the Glorious Nippon nationalism fan-fiction, and notice how Sakaguchi moved to Hawaii and did most of Spirits Within there. Then was supposed to triumphantly return back to Japan and possibly take out the traditional SE CEO and become company head with his buddies Kiros and Ward?

Yeah, I guess SE saw straight through this blatant and thinly veiled attempt and sacked him before hand. Yup that's what happened because I clearly have a train thought going here. Also, he gave away Japanese national security secrets like the rest of the continent they have behind cloaking devices.

Spoiler

this entire post was typed on the fly and is meant to be a creative writing exercise for myself to come up with a "theory" before the gf finishes cooking vday dinner

 

[Digital-Hero]

Interesting theory but I think they are looking too deep. This is like trying to find a conspiracy on the back of cereal box ingredients. I just bought FF8 off PSN and will be playing it again soon.

Lastly, why doesn't somone ask Kitase and crew of an analysis of FF8 and what it really meant? Surely, they would be the definitive source rather than a nerd on the internet.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

None of the others lived that long.

None of the sorceress in the game seems the age or get old, so I think it's possible to Rinoa reach until Ultimecia's time, and there's no indication of the contrary at any point

 

[Roxas]

of all the things to "dream" about as your dying, taking part in a shitty rock concert and hitching a ride from an alien spaceship is one of the last things to think of. This theory is insane :lol

 

[Rahul]

of all the things to "dream" about as your dying, taking part in a shitty rock concert and hitching a ride from an alien spaceship is one of the last things to think of. This theory is insane :lol

What, as a teenager you wouldn't have wanted to perform in a rock concert and then rescue your girlfriend from aliens? IN SPACE?

 

[yankeeforever2]

I remember watching my roommate play through 8, and thinking the story was god awful. I think you are grasping at straws.

 

[Scythesurge]

What, as a teenager you wouldn't have wanted to perform in a rock concert and then rescue your girlfriend from aliens? IN SPACE?

I first played this game when I was in middle school, and I definitely could relate to that at the time. :lol

 

[anaron]

I just finished reading the theory, and while I really like the idea, hell so much of it is plausible there is still too many flaws in it.

Like for example, Raine isn't introduced till after disc 1, so why would he makeup this character? could he not have made Julia his proposed "mother" when Laguna clearly showed feelings for her?

And why would Squall fantasize about so many near death experiences? you would think that if he was in a "happy" place he wouldn't put Rinoa and his friends through such near-death situations.

I think you're trying to justify to many things, even though half of them are not as bad as you're making them out to be.

There is many things that could be explained about Rinoa's change of interest and the game still brings it up especially near the Adel fight, you can still see Rinoa cares for him.

You really believe she is still going to love a guy who tries to kill her and her comrads?
Someone who is sided with the Sorceress, who was on the side of vinzer deling, that has caused trouble for Timber? Rinoa doesn't fall in love with Squall immediatly, it gradually happens, vice versa.

I do love the theory, I really do, but the time loop plot is most likely the realy plot. And no as some people say, it is NOT a bad plot.

Relaxed Muscle- It is clearly stated that Sorceresses live a normal live span.(Ultimania)
So no, Rinoa cannot possibly be Ultimecia.

And I will say why, before people come in with more stupid reasons.

1. Griever is a manifestation of Squalls thoughts conjured by Ultimecia. Not the Ring.
2.Rinoa would not forget Squall if the reason she went batshit insane is because he died, no she would not have memory loss from GF's, Ultimecia didn't have any equipped.
3. Why would she kill her ownself? She has SOME sense of intelligence, I highly doubt she would be stupid enough to put her past self in trivial danger.

I'm probably forgetting more but oh well.

 

[Eliciel]

lol i am blown away holy **** i can't even think clearly.. seriously this theory just blew my mind...

holy goooood god what is going on ..i think the theory just explained the whole thing i mean seriously this cutscenes now start making sense! freaking awesome if squaresoft delivered such intense and deep storystructur. I would be completely confused if this theory really says the truth in any possible way.

I mean hey i liked the original plot...I mean I was really young when i first played ffviii...but now this theory is really exciting thanks for posting

 

[Burli]

I really like your theory, and the fact that you care about the game enough to think this deeply into it, I personally liked the game (whether because I was too young to dislike any FF games or not) and I really need to replay it with your idea in mind.

 

[androvsky]

What, as a teenager you wouldn't have wanted to perform in a rock concert and then rescue your girlfriend from aliens? IN SPACE?

Of course. That's why it's in the game in the first place. I don't think I'd fantasize that the ice witch that killed me was really this nice lady that raised me in an orphanage that I'd just dreamed up or somehow forgotten about.

 

[2San]

You're right, R=U makes no sense. How does this one not make any sense, however?

Even though Rinoa liked Seifer, and she thought she liked him. It was never sure. You have to know FF8 is heavily influenced from j-drama and anime. As it follows the same standard format. She shows interest from the start, but thinks she likes someone else(she is still single!). After an event her feelings take a 180 and her interest switches. Though she still cares about the former love interest. For people not used to Anime/J-Drama/Manga it might be drastic or unrealistic, but if you are used it to it's as expected.

It's also said that griever is a manifestations of Squall’s mind to support the theory. It's actually true that griever is a manifestations of Squall’s mind, but he was created there and then.

Ultimecia created Griever from Squalls mind right there and then in battle.
Look at what the japanese version says:

Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things
[from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment
you. Fufu.

Then, if you scan Griever, it says "In SQUALLS MIND, the strongest GF".

As for the end all those pictures where just added drama to make the end just that much more sweeter.

In anything Asian you shouldn't underestimate Destiny.

 

[TheExodu5]

Well, it honestly sounds like you're looking for a reason to like something that you otherwise wouldn't. If the creators meant for this to be the case then they would have made it more apparent (because we know they have no issues with portraying their main character batshit insane, like they did with Cloud)

The basis for the theory is that when Squall gets hit by those ice cubes, its blatantly obvious that it would kill anybody, right? I'm thinking that maybe the CG department fucked up and Square didnt have enough of a budget to re-do the scene, so they just rolled with it. Its not incomprehensible that the story changed during development and that the CG work was done early, creating a disconnect between game story and CG scenes.

I like the theory because if this was explained at the end of the game it would serve as a great plot twist ... but as it is Squall didnt die, and maybe its a pity.

Sounds spot on to me.

edit: I should add that it's a very solid theory though. I absolutely despise the story in FF8. What I like so much about your theory is how much it could affect how I'd accept the story. If just before the credits rolled it came back to the moment in front of Edea with Squall falling over dead...that would be pretty powerful.

 

[anaron]

Even though Rinoa liked Seifer, and she thought she liked him. It was never sure. You have to know FF8 is heavily influenced from j-drama and anime. As it follows the same standard format. She shows interest from the start, but thinks she likes someone else(she is still single!). After an event her feelings take a 180 and her interest switches. Though she still cares about the former love interest. For people not used to Anime/J-Drama/Manga it might be drastic or unrealistic, but if you are used it to it's as expected.

It's also said that griever is a manifestations of Squall’s mind to support the theory. It's actually true that griever is a manifestations of Squall’s mind, but he was created there and then.




As for the end all those pictures where just added drama to make the end just that much more sweeter.

In anything Asian you shouldn't underestimate Destiny.

I agree and disagree with you.

Rinoa did NOT like Squall when she first met him. That is clearly shown. There was no confusion on her part whatsoever. Did she grow to care about him a little near the end of disc 1? Sure, but it wasn't romantic.

Also: Rinoa and Seifer were dating, if you talk to the members on the timber train, they mention how Rinoa and Seifer's relationship started(well one says its a hot topic but no one will tell him or something like that)

The ending part was not just added for drama, it was Squall losing his memories of everything. Ultimecia says the whole "reflect on your child hood memories blah blah" stuff.

I'm honestly terrible at explaining the whole time compression ending, so I'll leave it up to someone else for the moment while I read up the script of the game.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

Hrm. Life on Mars? It occurs to me that something like this could have been an original intention of the creators but was changed at a later point in development. It's also worth noting that 'the game is the dream' was also brought up in Final Fantasy

Spoiler

. X .

.

 

[Rahul]

Sounds spot on to me.

edit: I should add that it's a very solid theory though. I absolutely despise the story in FF8. What I like so much about your theory is how much it could affect how I'd accept the story. If just before the credits rolled it came back to the moment in front of Edea with Squall falling over dead...that would be pretty powerful.

I already liked FFVIII, though. I just didn't find it the best RPG story ever written until this.

 

[charlequin]

You're right, R=U makes no sense. How does this one not make any sense, however?

It's not so much that it doesn't make sense as that it's standard bush-league pointless story deconstruction. Usually people judge a story based on its plot, characterization, themes, pacing, and other elements of construction, but when people decide that some terrible story can't really be terrible for some external reason (it's attached to a game they like, it's by their favorite author, etc.) you get nonsense like this where a whole story's worth of lousy construction is supposed to be justified by a dumb twist.

Person 1: "So actually he's been dead the whole time! WHAT A TWIST!"
Person 2: "So.... what if I was actually interested in finding out the real purpose of any of the confusing things that happened in Disc 1?"
P1: "Oh, uh, err... well, those things are never addressed. Because he's dead, y'see."
P2: "So there's just no explanation for Edea's actions? Or the first past-flashback dream sequence?"
P1: "Errr... no."
P2: "In fact, why is Squall wasting valuable imagination time during his dying moments flashing back to someone who isn't even anyone he's ever met, and then later inventing a circuitous explanation for why he was imagining this person?"
P1: "Errrr..."
P2: "Why are we following the story in the first place? What exactly is supposed to be interesting about this story if it's about how he's dead, given that in that circumstance there's no narrative tension, no consequences to anything that happens, and nothing interesting learned about any of the characters?"
P1: "Umm."

And so on.

It's actually really, really easy to insert fake "explanations" like this into any sufficiently complex story, but it doesn't actually contribute anything remotely useful to understanding that story; it's just assigning random meanings to different symbols and claiming to have "decoded" them. If the necessary elements aren't right there in the work to correctly draw out the meaning behind the interpretation in question, and if there's no actual thematic or narrative purpose to the interpretation besides that it "explains" away what's actually just lousy writing, it's just masturbatory and pointless.

 

[Rahul]

I've asked teh same thing.

Even if it were the Japanese version I doubt it would have much impact on how I wrote the article. How much can change from a few translation errors? "This guy are sick"? "Believe yourself or God"?

 

[anaron]

I've asked teh same thing.

I don't see how it could be a mis-translation, he clearly grabs his chest in shock and confusion.

I don't know, I think most people love if he died at the end, I actually would like it if he woke up from a coma or something along the lines of that, and realize everything he lived through was a lie. I think that would be more tragic then him just dying.

 

[2San]

I agree and disagree with you.

Rinoa did NOT like Squall when she first met him. That is clearly shown. There was no confusion on her part whatsoever. Did she grow to care about him a little near the end of disc 1? Sure, but it wasn't romantic.

Also: Rinoa and Seifer were dating, if you talk to the members on the timber train, they mention how Rinoa and Seifer's relationship started(well one says its a hot topic but no one will tell him or something like that)

The ending part was not just added for drama, it was Squall losing his memories of everything. Ultimecia says the whole "reflect on your child hood memories blah blah" stuff.

I'm honestly terrible at explaining the whole time compression ending, so I'll leave it up to someone else for the moment while I read up the script of the game.

Weather she liked or didn't like Squall from when she first met him is irrelevant. What she did show is interest. She could've gone for any guy or just not dance. Getting helped/saved by a guy in fiction does lead to romance most of the time.

Everyone seems to go an the conception that she was soo in love with Seifer. Trust me that's nothing new in jdrama/anime/manga, the love doesn't amount to much if the love interest isn't the main lead. Most of the time the former love interest dies or betrays her. In this case he got brainwashed and turned evil.

Can't say much about the ending FMV, since it was way back since I last played.

Edit: I liked the story as is. A stoic disinterested guy falls in love and starts to care about someone else rather then himself and as twist you find out their parents had a history too.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Okay, I've decided. When I replay the game (probably in a few weeks or a month or so) I won't be playing with this theory in mind but actually to try and disprove it. While it has a lot of weight and I may be forced to believe it after another playthrough, I don't want this theory to be true. I like the story as it is (yes, I'm serious) and unlike most of Gaf, I don't think a story has to be bleak or revolve around death to be good. I was rooting for Squall to have a happy ending that is more than a bullshit personal heaven deal.

Things I'll be looking for:
-ANY instance of moombas in disc 1 other than dolls (dolls would only further prove this theory as Squall could bring to life some inanimate object he saw at some point)
-Direct foreshadowing
-Stuff Squall shouldn't known that is shown in disc 1 that ends up in the supposed "dream".

It may be a futile effort, but I'm going to try. I'm sure everyone here other than those that don't want to admit Nojima could be a "competent" writer wants the theory to be true, but wish me luck anyway.

 

[Burli]

If just before the credits rolled it came back to the moment in front of Edea with Squall falling over dead...that would be pretty powerful.

The more I think about this happening, the more I realise just how powerful that would have been, damn.

 

[anaron]

Weather she liked or didn't like Squall from when she first met him is irrelevant. What she did show is interest. She could've gone for any guy or just not dance. Getting helped/saved by a guy in fiction does lead to romance most of the time.

Everyone seems to go an the conception that she was soo in love with Seifer. Trust me that's nothing new in jdrama/anime/manga, the love doesn't amount to much if the love interest isn't the main lead. Most of the time the former love interest dies or betrays her. In this case he got brainwashed and turned evil.

Can't say much about the ending FMV, since it was way back since I last played.

Actually she didn't really show interest, she saw the only lonenly guy in the room, and thought " Hey I have no one to dance with atm either, maybe he will want to dance until i find seifer!" She just leaves him on the dancefloor without even saying her name or asking for his. I would hardly call that "interest"

Do I believe she loved Seifer? no she even said she "thinks" not does. But that doesn't excuse the fact that she did really like him.

 

[Rahul]

It's not so much that it doesn't make sense as that it's standard bush-league pointless story deconstruction. Usually people judge a story based on its plot, characterization, themes, pacing, and other elements of construction, but when people decide that some terrible story can't really be terrible for some external reason (it's attached to a game they like, it's by their favorite author, etc.) you get nonsense like this where a whole story's worth of lousy construction is supposed to be justified by a dumb twist.

Person 1: "So actually he's been dead the whole time! WHAT A TWIST!"
Person 2: "So.... what if I was actually interested in finding out the real purpose of any of the confusing things that happened in Disc 1?"
P1: "Oh, uh, err... well, those things are never addressed. Because he's dead, y'see."
P2: "So there's just no explanation for Edea's actions? Or the first past-flashback dream sequence?"
P1: "Errr... no."
P2: "In fact, why is Squall wasting valuable imagination time during his dying moments flashing back to someone who isn't even anyone he's ever met, and then later inventing a circuitous explanation for why he was imagining this person?"
P1: "Errrr..."
P2: "Why are we following the story in the first place? What exactly is supposed to be interesting about this story if it's about how he's dead, given that in that circumstance there's no narrative tension, no consequences to anything that happens, and nothing interesting learned about any of the characters?"
P1: "Umm."

And so on.

It's actually really, really easy to insert fake "explanations" like this into any sufficiently complex story, but it doesn't actually contribute anything remotely useful to understanding that story; it's just assigning random meanings to different symbols and claiming to have "decoded" them. If the necessary elements aren't right there in the work to correctly draw out the meaning behind the interpretation in question, and if there's no actual thematic or narrative purpose to the interpretation besides that it "explains" away what's actually just lousy writing, it's just masturbatory and pointless.

I see your point and I value your perspective, but so far no one has brought me to the point of your described "Errr" and "Umm" retorts. Please offer some example of something I can't explain and I'll gladly consider it.

I think there's a part to this called storytelling. Some of the stuff that happens after disc 2 starts is probably unnecessary if you demand that only things happen that Squall would want, but there's a certain amount of world building and basic build up involved. Who knows why? I don't really care either way because it doesn't undermine the theory in my eyes.

Why are we interested in this story if he's dead? That's not how it works. You don't know he's dead until the game is completed and Ultimecia's final words and the ending credits illustrate his last moments. So until then, you're taken on a journey where Squaresoft has you believe you're experiencing something real, albeit very surreal and twisted. They keep layering on the hints and subtleties until the illusion can no longer be held up. At that point they explain what was really going on: he was dying. He throws his head back, as he did when he was hit with the block of ice, a tear flows down his cheek, and that's it.

Then, we're presented with green fields, blue skies, happy people, and everything is perfect.

I can't accept that construction in the ending without this explanation.

 

[Rahul]

Okay, I've decided. When I replay the game (probably in a few weeks or a month or so) I won't be playing with this theory in mind but actually to try and disprove it. While it has a lot of weight and I may be forced to believe it after another playthrough, I don't want this theory to be true. I like the story as it is (yes, I'm serious) and unlike most of Gaf, I don't think a story has to be bleak or revolve around death to be good. I was rooting for Squall to have a happy ending that is more than a bullshit personal heaven deal.

Things I'll be looking for:
-ANY instance of moombas in disc 1 other than dolls (dolls would only further prove this theory as Squall could bring to life some inanimate object he saw at some point)
-Direct foreshadowing
-Stuff Squall shouldn't known that is shown in disc 1 that ends up in the supposed "dream".

It may be a futile effort, but I'm going to try. I'm sure everyone here other than those that don't want to admit Nojima could be a "competent" writer wants the theory to be true, but wish me luck anyway.

Gogogo! This is what I did. It didn't work. Looking forward to your thoughts!

 

[SecretBonusPoint]

Squall's Dead? He has a morgue? Or just a collection of dead bodies?

Grammar of some subtitle is of course the least of concerns for this theory which is completely imagined from external stress and focus put on certain plot points. The game's narrative structure, entire segments of characters operating independant to Squall and more completely refute this silly fan-theory.

It had a messy rubbish plot, most japanese rpgs do. Humans are pattern seeking animals, but sorry, you're clawing at the wrong bush here.

 

[anaron]

I see your point and I value your perspective, but so far no one has brought me to the point of your described "Errr" and "Umm" retorts. Please offer some example of something I can't explain and I'll gladly consider it.

I think there's a part to this called storytelling. Some of the stuff that happens after disc 2 starts is probably unnecessary if you demand that only things happen that Squall would want, but there's a certain amount of world building and basic build up involved. Who knows why? I don't really care either way because it doesn't undermine the theory in my eyes.

Why are we interested in this story if he's dead? That's not how it works. You don't know he's dead until the game is completed and Ultimecia's final words and the ending credits illustrate his last moments. So until then, you're taken on a journey where Squaresoft has you believe you're experiencing something real, albeit very surreal and twisted. They keep layering on the hints and subtleties until the illusion can no longer be held up. At that point they explain what was really going on: he was dying. He throws his head back, as he did when he was hit with the block of ice, a tear flows down his cheek, and that's it.

Then, we're presented with green fields, blue skies, happy people, and everything is perfect.

I can't accept that construction in the ending without this explanation.

Well ignoring this theory, a big part of the game is watching Squall grow as a person, and the ending is generally supposed to show he finally gets the happy ending, he grew as a person and not only him, but Rinoa too.

But whatever the case, i disagree that the ending HAS to be this tragic death for it to be good. VIII's ending was great as it is, but it would also be amazing if your theory stands.