Jason's Ultimatum
Member
Still doesn't change the fact that Seifer kept Squall alive to toture him and get info from him, since he was the leader of SeeD's mission at the time. Seifer got possessed and became even more screwed up in the head.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Analysis: What really happened in Final Fantasy VIII (SPOILERS)
- Thread starter Rahul
- Start date
Agreed; I wouldn't be so arrogant to claim "my ending" is the only way to view the game. I just wanted to share it so people could go through what I went through.anaron said:
The time loop was always cool, as was the idea of time kompression. I just think my interpretation of events makes much of what was meaningless meaningful, and so I come away with more value.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
anaron said:
Not, at least Edea shows that it's not a normal live span, sicen she is still (looks) young while Cid clearly shows the past of the time....
And pretty sure Adel didn't live a normal live span, since at least she ruled esthar for quite some time....
2San said:
That I also disagree with.
It isn't up to interpretation, Rinoa showed she did not care about him at first. And she did not fall for him out of nowhere, you see her slowly develop feelings for him, just because she starts acting different doesn't mean " YUP SHE LUV HIM NOW" the development between the two is fine, though it could have been better.
Who's to say Sorceresses cannot change their appearance? look how Adel morphed into this fucked up looking creature. Ultimecia also morphed her appearance. It also shows when you first see Edea that she can grow her hair out.
If you remember Adel had to start searching for girls to rule over for her, because her time was coming soon. So I don't believe she ruled for THAT long.
Wolves Evolve
Member
The ending is absolutely key here.
I happen to have a slightly different theory to the same effect - Squall is completely delusional, and we have no strong reference point for where he is. I have settled on him being on a hospital bed with Rinoa asking if he is alright.
Image Analysis of the Ending
---------------------------------
Its not wise to try to attach psychological meanings to the sequence in the ending, but its worth looking at what occurs. Its not 'recapping his life on acid', I would argue strongly. Time Kompression is a self-justification for the conflation of Rinoa with other women. In images at the end, faces blur to suggest Rinoa is / is part of Squall's anima-archetype. I tend not to buy into Jungian silliness but I feel its strongly suggested in the text here. He cannot fixate on her face, cannot remember it. The interpretation under Squall's Dead is good; that he cannot fixate because he is slipping away. I think there's much stronger evidence to suggest that amnesiac delusion is setting in.
The key weakpoint of the plot - the worst and most abusive part - is the orphanage. Its convenience is insulting. But its so short. A revelation that should reverberate throughout the plot just kicks off and stops. Its barely mentioned again.
The elements come together - Time Kompression, Ultimecia, Orphanage and the memory--disturbed ending under the Squall's Dead model. But they also come together if Squall is a schizoid fantasist.
Cynics would say that if you need to come up with a model, the plot sucks. But the plot doesn't actually suck. It has significant problems that come together with an ending sequence that is probably one of the best in videogaming history - ambiguous but satisfying. It can only do so if the plot is somewhat ambiguous. There are huge issues but the general mood of the game succeeds despite itself.
I happen to have a slightly different theory to the same effect - Squall is completely delusional, and we have no strong reference point for where he is. I have settled on him being on a hospital bed with Rinoa asking if he is alright.
Image Analysis of the Ending
---------------------------------
Its not wise to try to attach psychological meanings to the sequence in the ending, but its worth looking at what occurs. Its not 'recapping his life on acid', I would argue strongly. Time Kompression is a self-justification for the conflation of Rinoa with other women. In images at the end, faces blur to suggest Rinoa is / is part of Squall's anima-archetype. I tend not to buy into Jungian silliness but I feel its strongly suggested in the text here. He cannot fixate on her face, cannot remember it. The interpretation under Squall's Dead is good; that he cannot fixate because he is slipping away. I think there's much stronger evidence to suggest that amnesiac delusion is setting in.
The key weakpoint of the plot - the worst and most abusive part - is the orphanage. Its convenience is insulting. But its so short. A revelation that should reverberate throughout the plot just kicks off and stops. Its barely mentioned again.
The elements come together - Time Kompression, Ultimecia, Orphanage and the memory--disturbed ending under the Squall's Dead model. But they also come together if Squall is a schizoid fantasist.
Cynics would say that if you need to come up with a model, the plot sucks. But the plot doesn't actually suck. It has significant problems that come together with an ending sequence that is probably one of the best in videogaming history - ambiguous but satisfying. It can only do so if the plot is somewhat ambiguous. There are huge issues but the general mood of the game succeeds despite itself.
Scythesurge
Member
This would reallllly fuck up the theory.cosmicblizzard said:
PumpkinPie
Banned
Squall has a dead?
That website in the OP just seems like the person that wrote it wasn't clever enough to understand the plot of the game.
That website in the OP just seems like the person that wrote it wasn't clever enough to understand the plot of the game.
Well I spent some time today thinking about this theory and I must say I think it's pretty solid.
I always despised the plot in FF8 but this interpretation really puts things together nicely enough. And I think it's pretty clear when you put it this way, I think you convinced me more that you really are! You won me over in a few hours
It's like my favourite game ever, Siren (by Toyama, the creator of Silent Hill, the first and only real one): you don't get an explanation, you don't get some silly text to guide you hand-by-hand, you just have to interpretate the story. And this one is really tight, it explains a lot of things. Have any of you guys ever seen a David Lynch movie, or Jacob's Ladder? Not that you'd like them seeing how you don't get this theory at all.
Too bad they had to cut some stuff at the end which would have surely shed some light on it. I think maybe this was too mature a story for squaresoft's standards at the time, too depressing (but oh so fascinating). Or maybe they just had to release the damn game before the timeline
Anyway, I was just thinking about the (horrible) ending theme... didn't it revolve a lot around dreams and stuff? Just a thought.
(As usual, I'm sorry for my English)
I always despised the plot in FF8 but this interpretation really puts things together nicely enough. And I think it's pretty clear when you put it this way, I think you convinced me more that you really are! You won me over in a few hours
It's like my favourite game ever, Siren (by Toyama, the creator of Silent Hill, the first and only real one): you don't get an explanation, you don't get some silly text to guide you hand-by-hand, you just have to interpretate the story. And this one is really tight, it explains a lot of things. Have any of you guys ever seen a David Lynch movie, or Jacob's Ladder? Not that you'd like them seeing how you don't get this theory at all.
Too bad they had to cut some stuff at the end which would have surely shed some light on it. I think maybe this was too mature a story for squaresoft's standards at the time, too depressing (but oh so fascinating). Or maybe they just had to release the damn game before the timeline
Anyway, I was just thinking about the (horrible) ending theme... didn't it revolve a lot around dreams and stuff? Just a thought.
(As usual, I'm sorry for my English)
It's been a while since I've played FFVIII, so I might have missed something. I'll rephrase my earlier comment in the form of a question: Why is Squall imagining the sorceress that killed him to be some nice lady that worked at the orphanage he may or may not have grown up in?
And I agree with the others, that ice chunk is not a mortal wound. It's very clearly stuck in his right shoulder; a bit of healing magic should fix him right up. And it did.
And I agree with the others, that ice chunk is not a mortal wound. It's very clearly stuck in his right shoulder; a bit of healing magic should fix him right up. And it did.
SecretBonusPoint
Banned
anaron said:
No, its inserting a completely separate external plotpoint into a game that makes no motion to even suggest it, ignoring an entire culture of entertainments penchant for heroes to survive gigantic piercing wounds, leak 20 pints of blood in the process and just walk it off after a day. Its switching off entire sectors of your brain, ignoring gigantic flaws with the theory and just listening to that whispering "maybe..".
A far better example of a game that actually does this "character was dead from the start" plot is Panzer Dragoon Saga.
SecretBonusPoint
Banned
Its not like Cloud survived the exact same kind of wound in the previous Final Fantasy is it.
androvsky said:
The problem with the ice wound is it is never talked about. Even Squall is shocked about it, wondering what happened. How can there be no wound at all? If were putting this theory into effect, it's not like he just thinks this right away, when he learns about it, it might be him trying to justify why this sorceress is doing what she did.
But I'm not the best at explaining this, especially since I'm not a believer yet.
Sword Familiar
178% of NeoGAF posters don't understand statistics
Himuro said:
Hey, the more holes you leave the more shit you can dump into them. Just proves how bad the story REALLY is.
charlequin
Banned
Rahul said:
Yes. "Storytelling," that's a useful word. It is composed of two root words: "story" and "telling." Let's focus on that latter one: storytelling does not, in fact, involve leaving things out of the telling entirely and requiring people to perform insane plot analysis in order to "unlock" the true, secret "underlying" meaning of the narrative; it involves telling the readers or viewers a story.
Well, I know why: because you made up a random theory to "explain" why a badly-written story was actually super-good and like all such interpretations, it ignores the bits that don't fit while investing an insane amount of importance into even minor elements that do.
Why is "world-building" necessary in a storyline that isn't real? What is the purpose of spending time on irrelevant side-stories that hypothetical-Squall, in such a situation, would never waste a moment imagining? If this is the ultimate purpose of the narrative -- the entire reason for the story's existence -- why are there so few clues that no one playing the game upon its release understood this purpose, and so many elements that quite straightforwardly push towards a literal interpretation of the story?
The theory you're offering isn't a new or clever idea; it's been used in many works before, like Owl Creek Bridge mentioned above (the Wikipedia entry even lists many of them), or the Gilliam film
Brazil
"No Reason"
If your theory transformed the bloated, inconsistent, meandering narrative of FF8 into a taut, purposeful story where every element had immense resonance and purpose, that'd be one thing, but you're just transforming it into a bloated, inconsistent, meandering narrative that also requires secret arcane knowledge and in-depth analysis outside of the actual experience of playing the game to "unlock."
Sure it is. Ultimately the premise of any story that's told is that there is a conclusion that makes the time and effort invested in exploring it worthwhile. When someone drones on and on about events with no coherence or relevance like that kid in Psychonauts, we say they "don't know how to tell a story" because a successful story innately possesses some purpose that both compels you to follow it to its conclusion and in some way leaves you satisfied even after it is over.
FFVIII has a quite cliche story, told badly and laden down with nonsensical and bizarre elements, but ultimately there's at least a few basic story threads you can follow through it: guy-gets-girl, jerk-becomes-nice-guy, hero-defeats-villain, acquaintances-become-friends. Your take, on the other hand, doesn't really have any narrative purpose -- it's the story of a guy who was an asshole, and then died, and then made up a bunch of shit which ultimately didn't matter because he was dead, and none of the actual mysteries of the living world that the dead asshole was involved in before he died were solved before he died and deprived us of the opportunity to learn about them.
EDIT: Or, shorter me:
HK-47 said:
SecretBonusPoint said:
Really? comparing VII to VIII?
Then lets also take into affect that Aerith died immediatly from getting stabbed in the stomach. Who's to say Squall couldn't have died right after, and it wouldn't help that he fell off the parade float, which would do further damage.
Sword Familiar
178% of NeoGAF posters don't understand statistics
Himuro said:
Looks like it went straight through his jacket, but missed his body. There being no blood supports this theory, too, which in turn explains the "no wound" part in disc 2. The new jacket was provided to mess with his
your
Sword Familiar
178% of NeoGAF posters don't understand statistics
Himuro said:
I wouldn't know, I've only played the first 15 minutes of it :lol
SecretBonusPoint
Banned
Men survive chest/torso stab wounds, women do not. This is the way of japanese entertainment. You have to really be selecting your frame of reference to ignore such a basic trope of the games country of origin.
SecretBonusPoint said:
Great, thats not the point.
Yes he COULD of survived, which I believe he did. My point being is, that there is easily a chance he did not survive, especially with a fall like that. To say "it's the way of japanese entertainment" is really a piss poor arguement, when in no way does that suddenly disprove that he died.
cosmicblizzard
Banned
To be fair, the falling thing is a common trope.
I'm not saying that disproves the theory, just throwing it out there.
RPG cliches said:
I'm not saying that disproves the theory, just throwing it out there.
anaron said:
No, there's no chance. Characters in action/fantasy movies/games don't die from wounds like that. The shots are set up very clearly (thanks to Himuro for the perfect screenshots) to put the audience on a very precise emotional path:
1. Oh crap, she's gonna nail someone!
2. Oh crap, giant chunk of ice through Squall's chest! They killed the main char...
3. Oh, it went into his shoulder. He'll be fine once I change discs.
If the audience was meant to think for a moment past shot 2 that he was dead, the chunk of ice would be in the middle of his chest or stomach. Putting it in his shoulder is a very clear, very deliberate way of saying "He's okay".
edit: I should say main characters. If you're a sidekick, a shoulder wound like means that you'll stop and hold off the enemy while the hero escapes. Or, for older characters, sit down and start rambling for about half an hour while they bleed out...
Rebochan said:
Oh I'm not saying that he did die, I believe he is alive and well, and I don't right now support this theory. But I'm not going to ignore it like it's nothing, there is weird points in the game that supports the theory, and it's fun to discuss it.
But with all this BS that the game has terrible writing, and it needs this to cover it up is what bothers me about this. The game does have a known storyline, and it's still a pretty damn good one.
Cosmic- That's a really interesting post. While if true, most of the time they survive, Squalls wound would more then likely do more damage to him if he falls on it.
Sword Familiar
178% of NeoGAF posters don't understand statistics
I'll go with the "it went cleanly under his armpit" theory before I'll support the "Squall dies" one. :lol
anaron said:
I love the game's storyline as it is. These theories bug me because they take a perfectly good story and try to shape it into something really stupid.
FF8 haters of course hate this stuff because they already hated the story in the place.
Which means that it's really, really sad when I'm nodding in agreement with the people in this thread that hated FF8.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Final Fantasy VI:
Terra is dead.
...Killed by Tritoch the Esper at the beginning of the game.
Terra is a woman, born as a sorceress, who, in an explosive accident, lost her family at a young age, as well as her ability to hear or speak. Now older, but isolated from much of the world, she has no other job prospects than to use her powers as a mercenary. She hates killing, but nonetheless as a non-communicative woman with no other skill than magic, she must fight for the Empire to put food on her table. When she is killed on a mission to Narshe, she enters into a fantasy world where she dreams that she has not been forced into killing work by economic circumstance, but rather by "slave crown" technology which the sinister Empire has used to rob her of her memories, her will, and even her speech and hearing! It changes the tragedy of her circumstances into a situation where an evil "other" is to blame. This evil is most personified by Kefka, a representation of the cruel world of circumstance which robbed her of her family, her hearing and speech, and forced her into immoral work. Terra imagines the world finds glee in tormenting her, and this is embodied in the clown general Kefka.
In this fantasy world, she can talk and hear just fine, and her common magic abilities are regarded as incredibly special.... It is a fantasy where her disabilities and economic situation are wished away, and her one skillful ability is seen as critical to the future of the entire planet! The introduction at the beginning of the game is actually speaking about the world of Terra's dreams. A group of rebels organize around her, really aspects of her psyche which seek to protect her from the Empire's "employment", and she ventures on a journey where she is the central figure of importance for the future of the world.
The isolation she feels as a disabled woman is channeled into a fantasy where her unique circumstances are actually a wonderful thing... she isn't merely some sad cripple, but rather, she is the result of a union between a human and an "angel"..... she is part-Esper. This comes from the feeling that she is different from other human beings, and isolated from them... She imagines she is actually a heavenly creature playing the role of a human. It makes her isolation seem to have meaning when she perceives herself in this way.
Terra's fantasy will eventually lead to the cruel forces of "Kefka" dominating over her world. Her story seems to come to an end in Thamasa.. she seems to have a happy moment with her protectors, including the noble General Leo... but Terra's inability to accept such a "perfect ending" causes her to sabotage it... she knows that life is cruel.. it must be... and so she causes the embodiment of cruel circumstances, Kefka, to rule over her entire world.. and bring it to ruin. The mental aspects which protect her, the rebels, are scattered far across this wasteland. She even loses herself... she visualizes herself as Celes, the former Imperial Soldier, who is basically who Terra wishes she was. Celes is Terra's idealized self... One who similarly works for the Empire with confidence. One who is similarly "abused" by the Empire (as Terra perceives that the Empire "forces" her to kill.. for money).. but Celes is a stronger version of Terra, and she simply turns around and leaves the Empire of her own free will. This is what Terra wishes she could have done.
In this world of ruin, she desires strength, so she becomes Celes. At first, Terra isn't fit to bear the burden of being a stronger woman... she contemplates suicide, as Celes. But eventually she steps up to a position of strength, and sets out on a jouney to gather her protectors. She eventually encounters her true self, lost in a maternal fantasy about caring for orphans, and she becomes herself again to complete one final mission: The defeat of Kefka.. or rather, the conquering of the belief that one is ruled by the circumstances of a cruel world. She will defeat Kefka in order to reassert her dignity, no matter what circumstances... Whether she is poor, disabled, or even dead, she will regain her self-worth no matter what cards life has dealt her.
The defeat of Kefka returns her afterlife to a world of blue skies and balance. She allows herself the peace which she couldn't believe back in Thamasa. Now she knows that, though her life is over, at least she could find dignity, even in a life which brought bad luck upon her. She needn't blame life for her problems any more. She is free, regardless of any external circumstances.
^ See anyone can do this. "Squall is dead" is probably a better theory... but damned if you couldn't find "alternative" tellings of most stories out there...
Terra is dead.
...Killed by Tritoch the Esper at the beginning of the game.
Terra is a woman, born as a sorceress, who, in an explosive accident, lost her family at a young age, as well as her ability to hear or speak. Now older, but isolated from much of the world, she has no other job prospects than to use her powers as a mercenary. She hates killing, but nonetheless as a non-communicative woman with no other skill than magic, she must fight for the Empire to put food on her table. When she is killed on a mission to Narshe, she enters into a fantasy world where she dreams that she has not been forced into killing work by economic circumstance, but rather by "slave crown" technology which the sinister Empire has used to rob her of her memories, her will, and even her speech and hearing! It changes the tragedy of her circumstances into a situation where an evil "other" is to blame. This evil is most personified by Kefka, a representation of the cruel world of circumstance which robbed her of her family, her hearing and speech, and forced her into immoral work. Terra imagines the world finds glee in tormenting her, and this is embodied in the clown general Kefka.
In this fantasy world, she can talk and hear just fine, and her common magic abilities are regarded as incredibly special.... It is a fantasy where her disabilities and economic situation are wished away, and her one skillful ability is seen as critical to the future of the entire planet! The introduction at the beginning of the game is actually speaking about the world of Terra's dreams. A group of rebels organize around her, really aspects of her psyche which seek to protect her from the Empire's "employment", and she ventures on a journey where she is the central figure of importance for the future of the world.
The isolation she feels as a disabled woman is channeled into a fantasy where her unique circumstances are actually a wonderful thing... she isn't merely some sad cripple, but rather, she is the result of a union between a human and an "angel"..... she is part-Esper. This comes from the feeling that she is different from other human beings, and isolated from them... She imagines she is actually a heavenly creature playing the role of a human. It makes her isolation seem to have meaning when she perceives herself in this way.
Terra's fantasy will eventually lead to the cruel forces of "Kefka" dominating over her world. Her story seems to come to an end in Thamasa.. she seems to have a happy moment with her protectors, including the noble General Leo... but Terra's inability to accept such a "perfect ending" causes her to sabotage it... she knows that life is cruel.. it must be... and so she causes the embodiment of cruel circumstances, Kefka, to rule over her entire world.. and bring it to ruin. The mental aspects which protect her, the rebels, are scattered far across this wasteland. She even loses herself... she visualizes herself as Celes, the former Imperial Soldier, who is basically who Terra wishes she was. Celes is Terra's idealized self... One who similarly works for the Empire with confidence. One who is similarly "abused" by the Empire (as Terra perceives that the Empire "forces" her to kill.. for money).. but Celes is a stronger version of Terra, and she simply turns around and leaves the Empire of her own free will. This is what Terra wishes she could have done.
In this world of ruin, she desires strength, so she becomes Celes. At first, Terra isn't fit to bear the burden of being a stronger woman... she contemplates suicide, as Celes. But eventually she steps up to a position of strength, and sets out on a jouney to gather her protectors. She eventually encounters her true self, lost in a maternal fantasy about caring for orphans, and she becomes herself again to complete one final mission: The defeat of Kefka.. or rather, the conquering of the belief that one is ruled by the circumstances of a cruel world. She will defeat Kefka in order to reassert her dignity, no matter what circumstances... Whether she is poor, disabled, or even dead, she will regain her self-worth no matter what cards life has dealt her.
The defeat of Kefka returns her afterlife to a world of blue skies and balance. She allows herself the peace which she couldn't believe back in Thamasa. Now she knows that, though her life is over, at least she could find dignity, even in a life which brought bad luck upon her. She needn't blame life for her problems any more. She is free, regardless of any external circumstances.
^ See anyone can do this. "Squall is dead" is probably a better theory... but damned if you couldn't find "alternative" tellings of most stories out there...
SecretBonusPoint
Banned
Hey do you remember that part in FF8 after battling a tank, your separated-from-Squall party on this missile base are shown to still be there when a shot of the entire thing going up in a mushroom cloud is revealed?
When they turn up again in the plot, is this because:
a) it is a shonen-level story where characters will survive because they have to
or
b) it is all an elaborate mental illusion inside Squalls mind because he realised he sent his friends to their deaths, and for the rest of the game he is just imagining they are still alive to soothe his shattered psyche.
When they turn up again in the plot, is this because:
a) it is a shonen-level story where characters will survive because they have to
or
b) it is all an elaborate mental illusion inside Squalls mind because he realised he sent his friends to their deaths, and for the rest of the game he is just imagining they are still alive to soothe his shattered psyche.
Rebochan said:
I disagree this theory would make the storyline stupid. But I do prefer the time loop over the Squall dies theory. I think this just more of a fun analyzation (atleast for me) on what the plot could have been. But I'm the only one who would still want Squall alive at the end, not just dies.
cosmicblizzard
Banned
anaron said:
Believe me, you aren't. Gaf hates him but he's one of my favorite characters in the series. I thought he grew enough to deserve a happy ending.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
As far as I can remember, the only game that actually features a dead main character is
. But then, the game's story is still good because he's not having a stupid dream. He's being animated by a divine force that he knows will leave him as soon as he finishes his quest.
He accepts that and saves the world despite knowing he has a death sentence hanging over him.
is the man.
Panzer Dragoon Saga
He accepts that and saves the world despite knowing he has a death sentence hanging over him.
Edge
SilentProtagonist
Member
So... I'm just gonna ask again..
If everything 'weird' and fantasyish happens after disc 1, then why do 3 characters all have the same dream at the same time? That seems a little strange, no? And I find it a little funny that things like moomba and all of these other 'fantasy' elements that are illegibly unbelievable (or out of place) are being picked out as evidence.. since it's.. you know a fantasy game with giant robots and teenagers summoning monsters from their bodies.
Interesting theory though.
If everything 'weird' and fantasyish happens after disc 1, then why do 3 characters all have the same dream at the same time? That seems a little strange, no? And I find it a little funny that things like moomba and all of these other 'fantasy' elements that are illegibly unbelievable (or out of place) are being picked out as evidence.. since it's.. you know a fantasy game with giant robots and teenagers summoning monsters from their bodies.
Interesting theory though.
Scythesurge
Member
One thing about the ending that make me think they were trying to say Squall is in time compression than Squall is having his last breaths is the rewindy sounds and effects. I could see you saying that's him reminiscing, his life flashing before his eyes, but it seems to say more that he is going through time compression.
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
Scythesurge said:
This is what I think too.
Indeed, normally you'd think the stuffed toys are based on the real life counterpart.SilentProtagonist said:
Yeah, I mean you go trough all of that drama and it's all a dream? If it where true, I'd be pissed. :O As with most games that are dream all your hard work just becomes pointless.cosmicblizzard said:
To the naysayers:
There are too many posts (haha) here for me to respond to each one individually, but I welcome the discussion and I'm glad I posted this because at least it, as Himuro noted, got people talking about what is essentially a frickin' ancient game come 2010.
It's too bad some of you fail to discuss it at a mature level and keep personal attacks separate from rebuking the analysis. I wonder what would have happened if I started this thread with "everyone who doesn't take this away from the game is an idiot"? I'd much rather have a discussion about the topic at hand, as some posters have done, than explaining why I'm not an idiot just throwing "external" ideas at the "stupid narrative".
There are too many posts (haha) here for me to respond to each one individually, but I welcome the discussion and I'm glad I posted this because at least it, as Himuro noted, got people talking about what is essentially a frickin' ancient game come 2010.
It's too bad some of you fail to discuss it at a mature level and keep personal attacks separate from rebuking the analysis. I wonder what would have happened if I started this thread with "everyone who doesn't take this away from the game is an idiot"? I'd much rather have a discussion about the topic at hand, as some posters have done, than explaining why I'm not an idiot just throwing "external" ideas at the "stupid narrative".