ashecitism
Member
Why should it pass info? It just bombs the room with lasers and the sensors pick it up and do the calculation. The basestation is dumb.
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Arstechnica hands-on Vive VR [3D controllers standard, no market fragmentation]
- Thread starter Man
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Why should it pass info? It just bombs the room with lasers and the sensors pick it up and do the calculation. The basestation is dumb.
See the video I posted above. It is disgustingly clever.
bah, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrsUMEbLtOs
They don't. Watch the video tuxfool linked.
They work practically like... lighthouses. All the detection, computation etc is done on the headset/computer side of things.
Maintenance
Member
Well, looks like I'm going with Vive then. Almost bought an OR DK2 but I'll wait after the recent news.
Turin Turambar
Member
ashecitism
Member
here's a gif
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
Thanks. Once the specs are released, I will get my hardware in line. I am super excited for this!
serversurfer
Member
See above.
serversurfer
Member
I did, but in the video you linked, they just say that it works, without explaining how. The GIF that ashecitism posted helps a bit, but how does the system know that first beam left the beacon 4.3 ms ago and not 4.2 ms ago? What happens if a second beacon comes by with an x-pass at the 3.7 ms mark? How does it even know which beacon that came from, if all of the beams are the same?
The beams are either carrying an encoded pulse or they're at different frequencies. The sync pulse tells the headset to start counting and from that point the time taken to read the pulse is then converted into a horizontal distance and azimuth.
It probably can tell the beacons apart through some process of elimination or encoding scheme in the light pulse. Given a short enough period between sync and the laser beams there shouldn't be any collision between different base stations.
Reallink
Member
You guys got a reality check coming talking about a $400 Vive, all but zero chance of that happening. 2 controllers, 2 lighthouses, and a dual screen HMD coupled with HTC's cautionary statements says no way in hell. The only tiny chance is if they really reach market this year and want try for a knock out punch to Oculus. Even then, I don't think they'll have the manufacturing capacity to make such an attempt worthwhile. Valve certainly aren't going to be pushing HTC on pricing one way or the other (see Steam Machines). I think $500 is the absolute minimum and I would not be shocked to see as high as $999 as an early adopter tax, blamed on unknown demand and limited production capacity.
Vive is definitely the ultimate form of VR going forward and will probably become the de facto standard on PC. Oculus have just sat on their hands, seemingly not doing all that much even with huge financial backing of Facebook and their strategy will do more damage to VR than help it...
I'm going Morpheus as my gateway into VR. I have faith in Sony and there will be great fun software on there and hopefully all the VR cinema, 360º video kind of experiences as well. If I ever have the ability to save the money for Vive, or when it becomes more and more financially accessible I'm definitely getting the spare room in my flat equipped. The future is near!
I'm going Morpheus as my gateway into VR. I have faith in Sony and there will be great fun software on there and hopefully all the VR cinema, 360º video kind of experiences as well. If I ever have the ability to save the money for Vive, or when it becomes more and more financially accessible I'm definitely getting the spare room in my flat equipped. The future is near!
Korean Jesus
Banned
3D controller is mandatory?
Not sure how that would work out. Most of the time when I'm off from work, I just want to rest my arms on my lap and play videogames to unwind.
Moving my arms around would just make me even more tired. We'll see.
Not sure how that would work out. Most of the time when I'm off from work, I just want to rest my arms on my lap and play videogames to unwind.
Moving my arms around would just make me even more tired. We'll see.
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
how to people take what they said and come up with this?
Stiler
Member
It still baffles me why all of these VR companies seem to just be stuck on using "controllers" instead of a glove.
Why is it the one thing Nintendo was actually on the right track with back in the day and it seems like all of the big players are just trying to avoid anything remotely near that design?
Why is it the one thing Nintendo was actually on the right track with back in the day and it seems like all of the big players are just trying to avoid anything remotely near that design?
Problem with a glove is that it isn't fixed geometry, so none of the solutions developed so far work with a glove.
Korean Jesus
Banned
That made no sense. English 101.
How would you wash your gloves? And even if you could, it would just worn out faster than if you were to come up with a peripheral that doesn't require to be washed periodically.
Arkam
Member
Thats a by far the easiest/cheapest hurdle to overcome. If thats a deal breaker, than VR is not for you at this juncture in time.
But dont get too bummed since it will only get cheaper over time
serversurfer
Member
Wouldn't that require some level of coordination/communication? If every beacon needs to be on a different frequency or whatever, how does a given beacon know which frequency it's supposed to use, or which are unavailable? Once the beacons decide what they're gonna do, how does the system know which one is which?
The sync pulse is the first, square pulse in the GIF? How does that help them? If the first scan pulse goes out 3 ms after the sync pulse, won't it always arrive 3 ms later, assuming the photo cell hasn't moved in the interim? You'd know you're still the same distance from the beacon, but you still won't have any idea if that distance is 1 m or 10 m, right?
Wouldn't that need to be coordinated in some way?
No idea on the specifics, but whatever they do, it works.
The sync pulse is exactly what it does, sync up the timer running on the headset. Yup, the scan pulse delay will be known (I doubt speed of light enters into consideration in a 20m radius).
I assume the native coordinate system of Lighthouse is polar, so the arc distance (azimuth) is determined by the time when the scan beam sweep first reaches the headset after the sync. The distance from the pole (radius) is determined by the time between individual beams sent as part of the entire scan beam/beams (the laser is split into a series of beams using some sort of grated mirror). As you get further away from the pole (base station) each beam spreads out increasing the time between individual beams.
There are two lasers in each station and each comprise of a separate coordinate system rotated by 90º.Thus the intersection of each determines the coordinates in 3d space. I imagine attitude of the headset is determined by the visibility of the beam by each photo diode.
The stations don't need coordination between each other. Only the headset needs to know which is which. The signals are all easily seperated as they're all determined according to the sync pulse (which probably what tells the headset what base station the scan beams are coming from).
Could be as simple as having a channel selection dial on each base station. Just set each station to the next available channel as you set them up.
Have the station dials set to 1 and 2 out of the box, problem solved. People would only need to adjust them if they wanted to buy a bunch to cover larger spaces.
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Lighthouse-based controllers are going to wind up being the de facto standard VR inputs at this rate. Pretty much the equivalent of the 360 controller for PC.
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
Did Oculus confirm whether they'd have the Touch for demo at E3? I need comparisons between that Vive like, yesterday.
Palmer said something after the conference that seemed like it would be.
TheDarkKnight774
Member
I am planning on buying two VR sets. It was Morpheus and then either Vive or Occulus. And right now it seems obvious to go with Vive
Stiler
Member
You would simply calibrate it, similar to what they have done with joystick systems for decades.
Then it'd have sensors on it to detect your finger/hand/wrist movements, which would be far better then any of these current solutions like the Oculus touch or the vive controller, because both require you to "hold" something and thus your hand movement is restricted right out of the gate, you will never be able to physically "interact" with objects while being forced to hold something which is why a "glove" is the most logical and best design choice for any VR controller.
They could even place a simply joystick/trackpad on the side of your index finger so you could easily use it with your thumb to control movement and things.
If its shape is always changing how do the sensors detect the glove in 3d space? Everything used for determination of location so far is based on pattern recognition. You could do some sort of calibration at the beginning, but as soon as you start using the glove then detectors will no longer be able to find it (or in the case of lighthouse, the glove won't be able to sense beams timings on the basis of known geometries). I don't think it is impossible, but rather requires much much more research.
Cave Johnson
Member
This is how you advertise VR, not that mess that was was $2 billion dollar funded Oculus. When people worry about them transitioning to a corporate entity concerns were brushed off in favor a more resource approach to the system. Yesterday was a prime example of worries being vindicated. An X1 pad to introduce the system? Implementation of 3rd person gaming as a means to buy into the "core" gaming market rather than, you know, actually proving the device technology first? Man, these people lost their way - I don't even know what the extent of Oculus would be!
And here lies the difference with Vive. They understand it's about making the technology to function first and alleviate concerns before jumping into the mainstream. Oculus is just repeating history and Valve at least is stepping in the correct direction.
And here lies the difference with Vive. They understand it's about making the technology to function first and alleviate concerns before jumping into the mainstream. Oculus is just repeating history and Valve at least is stepping in the correct direction.
InaudibleWhispa
Member
Sounds like a first class ticket to vomitville. The traditional portal gameplay involving jumping into the floor and getting flung forward at insane speeds, or getting stuck in an infinite falling loop sounds like a big no no. A puzzle game designed with VR in mind set in the Portal universe would be cool though, but the Portal mechanic itself might be too restrictive (in terms of what you can do and not feel sick).
I'm sorry, did you just accuse Oculus of rushing things? They began this whole VR craze, and have spent years refining it. So many years in fact, that just a few months ago it was popular sentiment (on this very forum) to label the Rift as vaporware.
Why does everybody on here have the memory of a goldfish?
Turin Turambar
Member
Killer app, in a more literal way than others! as in people would die puking
But in any case, the VR they are focusing to is Presence-enabled VR. That means you can forget first person games where you character can walk continuously, like Portal. Or Half Life. Or any game like that.
Well it isn't the traditional Portal - it's called "Robot Repair Human Diversity Outreach Program"
Turin Turambar
Member
Yeah because they haven't proved the technology work first. Like, doing the DK1, then the DK2, hundreds of demos and experiences done for them, the times they showed CB working (which is basically a 0.9 version of the final product) on different shows like CES and GDC...
What concerns are left to alleviate?
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
People like to be on the FB hate train. r/oculus has been gross lately with this fud. Admittedly Vive is more attractive right now due to shipping with lighthouse, though Oculus being incompetent or somesuch talk is some mighty fine hyperbole. Lots of hands in that management bucket with FB involved too me thinks re: MS deal.
Reallink
Member
To be fair we have no impressions of CV1, the games, or the motion controllers. If they're as or more incredible is that going to change your opinion? After the universally negative blow back regarding the Xbone pad and making the Touch an after market add-on, they're probably going to be reassessing their input strategy. My suspicion is they will be looking at pushing the Touch time table forward, delaying the headset, or shipping with I-Own-You's so they can make it a standard/mandatory pack-in. If I'm not mistaken, CV1 is Q1 2016 and Touch is Q2 2016 so there's not a huge gap.
VR Cinema is a pretty good example of the "bad VR poisoning the well" they had been so against in the earlier days. Seeing that up front was quite symbolic.
Edit: referring to the 2D game streaming demo specifically.
Uhh, everybody loves VR cinema. All of my friends who have tried it using my Gear VR have loved it. What are you even talking about?
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
Is vr cinema really "bad vr" though? As long as it's first person with low latency I don't see the issue. Surprised there was barely any first person content shown outside of Valkrie though.
Just saw this on r/oculus, I guess Zuck got the limited edition wireless version
/s
Reallink
Member
Think he's talking about the Xbone Stream Cinema, but yea, anyone who has actually used the virtual cinemas love them. Problem is the resolution isn't there to make them a full time use case, which is perhaps what he's speaking to. It is ultimately just a neat novelty to play around with, almost no one's going to be ditching big fancy TV's to stream Xbone games.
VR cinema is a cool application. However, it was really common for people to comment on how pointless it seemed to play a game that way. Almost would have been better for them to just show sports and movies instead.
Bad choice of words for me there though, "bad VR" was really talking about the hardware side when they used the term.
Yup, that was what I was referring to.
I'm not so sure if it is as simple as "reassessing their input strategy". They have committed to this direction likely for a whole bunch of reasons. Ultimately, their input device isn't going to be ready for the consumer release, and at least from the looks of it, will have occlusion problems typical of camera tracking unless games are designed to largely face forward. Settling with the Xbox One controller is in contrast with what they had said previously, but does make sense in relation to what is being developed with so far. That said, as the Vive Ars Technica article indicates, not all devs had the assumption of only standard controller input being the baseline.
There are many reasons why standard dual stick controllers are not good for VR games, as Oculus themselves used to say, but ultimately for a first gen product that will likely be followed up in 2 years, does it even matter? It almost seems like Oculus have the approach of dragging in the sceptical with the traditional input that they see as more accessible, with perhaps easier development and known game types to create but with the compromise of limiting presence due to such input. Valve are certain in their solution as a bare minimum making a lot of sense for their tracking, but also opening up to new game types entirely, but possibly freaking out the not so sure folk, despite the controllers being made for their simplicity and flexibility
The thing is that controllers are always going to be supported by games that work well with them. Oculus didn't need to institute a reference platform with a controller, merely simply not provide a reference platform beyond the headset until their control solution was finalized.
It is clear that what valve did, threw Oculus for a loop. Their camera tracking system isn't well suited for a freeform control solution. Inevitably it will run into the same problems that Sony will have by using the Move (and some of the problems MS had with the Kinect).
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
I wouldn't be surprised if Oculus' gen 2 hmd used a similar tracking method as lighthouse, occlusion problems seem too great with a camera setup.
Standard controller is a temporary bandaid until they roll out their Touch controllers. Too much room for potential vestibular disconnect issues (motion sickness) using the xbone for input, they really need to get the Touch out asap.
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
You are right, I used to instead of do.
But they aren't saying every game made is going to use the arm flapping. Don't buy the games that use that control method if you don't like it. There will be tons of other games that play like everything else.
It's not going to be $999.
There is still merit in Oculus' route of taking on an optical camera tracking system, since much of that could map to future implementations where solving that better can allow for better tracking. Valve's Lighthouse works right now and is right at the front, but years from now, I don't really know how that can scale and improve. Eventually (hypothetically) when these things get small enough and wireless, you may be going between rooms. Suddenly an optical solution and time invested in that for inside out tracking might be far more worthwhile than where Lighthouse could possibly go
But of course all of this is just purely speculative; there's no telling right now other than knowing by sheer numbers Oculus have a lot invested in the future of VR. They may crack a lot of stuff where Valve simply can't keep up in future
The valve solution is *much* more scalable (I'm not quite sure you understand how Lighthouse works). See this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrsUMEbLtOs). To expand the area all they need to do is use strong LEDs for the sync light, or use more base stations. They are considering its use beyond VR, as a guidance system for robots and quadcopters and other unmentioned applications.
You've completely missed my point. A camera that could track in future at any room scale accurately without the need for separately purchased Lighthouses is a better solution for that scenario, or even going outdoors under the assumption of wireless headsets. What is lighthouses scalability into headsets or going wireless / outdoors - that is entirely unclear, and from what we know about how it works, it won't work in such a way. That is what I mean by there being merit in what Oculus does with optical tracking solutions now leading into 5 years on
reptilescorpio
Member
No fragmentation is so good, awesome to hear.