• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Bethesda responds to Prey 2 cancellation

Nabbis

Member
Should probably sticky these industry shenanigans. Too many people either shilling or being fanboys for shitty corporations. Hopefully it would help a little with seeding a sense of critical thinking.
 
Was this the one where Bethesda wanted to buy a dev for cheaps so kept shifting milestones on the project so the dev would go bankrupt and could be scooped up?

Wouldn't be the first time something like this happened. Bandai stopped paying the guys making Splatterhouse because they didn't like the leadership, then when the studio went under they hired about half the team to finish the game.

Also games get cancelled for political reasons all the time. Go look up Command and Conquer F2P etc.
 

3HpiFi0.gif
 
ITT people learned that the wealthy exploit those less wealthy than them for profit and fun! What world do you all live in where you don't know this already?
 

Fezan

Member
I always have one question? Can't human head just rename the project and do some small tinkering and release game with summer other name. If it was really in alpha state then it just need to be ported to new console or even just PC and needs some polishing
 
I think I have a new most hated publisher. Move over Konami. Thankfully I have little to no interest in 99 percent of games that Bethesda releases as publisher or developer so they are easy to ignore.
 
I don't believe a single word that comes out the mouth of Pete Hines.
Nor should you, I would believe that most people on Neogaf would understand, but it's important to remember that at the end of the day publishers are not your friend. I got/had to sit in multiple meetings with publishers and they can get utterly brutal from a creative standpoint. You can have someone tell you that "If you can't do this without <insert feature here> maybe we need to call this a day, knowing that your studio(s) life/payroll depends on it. It is extraordinarily political and Hine's ego probably is not too far off from that exact scenario. Then they swoop in, scare you with "You'll lose funding, think of your studio, think of their jobs". Literally fucking vultures convincing you to give up while you starve in the desert and Bethesda, in this case, will be your water.

Basically, if it's going to cost $1xxxx.xx to make this feature/design choice that's not fundamental to the game you better have a DAMN good reason why resources should be used on this and put on your sales shoes to convince them.

I'm sure that's not news to most, but I have heard absolute horror stories about Bethesda.

God damn I don't miss being in this business at ALL.
 

Squishy3

Member
I always have one question? Can't human head just rename the project and do some small tinkering and release game with summer other name. If it was really in alpha state then it just need to be ported to new console or even just PC and needs some polishing
They'd probably need to do all new assets etc. because it was all done with money from Bethesda/Zenimax
 
They were so confident in the game they stuck the "remember to buy this soon" slip in the Skyrim box.

Shame corporate sleeze made it fall apart, looked like it would have been fun.
 

dangeraaron10

Unconfirmed Member
This is...absolutely scummy from Bethesda/Zenimax and will make me heavily reconsider never buying their games in the future.
 

Jarmel

Banned
This is well known that Bethesda was full of shit on this.
It happens. Marriages go bad. It happens.
Right, sort of like cheating on your wife. Shit happens. You must have accidentally stuck your dick in another woman. It happens.
 

Doop

Member
Man I don't think I've seen a single Pete Hines quote where he didn't sound like he was being super passive aggressive.
 
ITT people learned that the wealthy exploit those less wealthy than them for profit and fun! What world do you all live in where you don't know this already?

And that somehow absolves Bethesda? "Shit happens, so don't complain when you get shit on!"

Here in the actual world we live in, shame is an important aspect we use to maintain some semblance of social order.
 
Pre-E3 2011, the game was scheduled for a late March 2012 release. After Prey 2 was nominated for game of the show, Bethesda offered Human Head, a team of 55 in the Midwest more time and money to flesh out the game world. The game was nearly at an alpha state when Human Head stopped working in November 2011.

Milestone abuse and a failed hostile acquisitions basically goes like this:

Bethesda disputes Milestones - reasonable or not - and withholds payment while Zenimax, the parent company, offers to loan money while the issues are being sorted, saying it's just an administrative issue that is bound to get resolved, then after several milestones aren't met and the money "lent" becomes too important, it offers to buy the company as a solution.

The companies have done it several times already. Given their documented history, there is no reason to grant them the benefit of the doubt: this is a planned, predatory practice.

If you're giving me money and it looks like I'm failing, and you don't want to give me more money because you don't trust that I can complete the project, why are you trying to buy out my studio?

That's the six million dollar question: if this really was a case of Human Head dropping the ball, ******* up development and ruining Bethesda's investment, why did Bethesda want to pour more money into acquiring the entire studio/team in addition to the product?

The fact is, Human Head were doing such a good job that Bethesda pretended they were doing a shit job so they could gain the financial leverage needed to acquire the entire studio.

I'll try to explain it as best I can. I'm sure there's a proper phrase for it in consumer advocacy environments, but I just call it milestone abuse.

In a traditional publisher-developer relationship in the video games industry, the publisher usually pays the developer through a number of milestones. Here's an example.

> Milestone 1: Exit pre-production with a final design plan
> Milestone 2: Finish X number of levels and audio/graphical assets
> Milestone 3: Have a "vertical slice" demo (showing all core features)
> Milestone 4: Establish a pipeline with the quality assurance testers

Stuff like that.

This system is technically great since it keeps the developer accountable. They only get paid if they keep working and showing progress. I WISH they'd have something like this for Kickstarter.

The problem with milestone abuse is when the milestone criteria isn't shown to the public (due to corporate confidentiality and all of that). Since it's kept behind closed doors, people who actually give a shit can't make sure that the publisher isn't trying to exploit the developer by exploiting loopholes in the contract.

Since most studios can only afford to work on one major project at a time, they need the milestone payments in order to stay afloat. However, if the publisher wants to intentionally bankrupt the developer so that they can purchase their IPs and employee contracts (hostile acquisition), then the publisher just has to ride it out and see who runs out of money first. Since the publisher is almost always wealthier, they just have to play a waiting game and arbitrarily fail the milestones.

> Yeah, you set up a quality assurance pipeline but we don't think it's good enough. No, we don't have to explain why. You think anyone out there's going to look through this contract?

> Yeah, you exited pre-production, but we still count those 10 meetings you did afterwards as part of it. Actually, you deserve less money than we gave. Maybe you should be happy that we're just withholding payment and not suing you.

> You call this a vertical slice? We didn't finish focus testing yet! We still might want more features! Oh, we didn't tell you? That's not our problem.

Once the developer gets desperate enough and they almost reach bankruptcy, the publisher is in a good position to force a buy-out. Since whether or not they did anything legally wrong is really, really complicated and the developer no longer has any money to hire a legal team that can rival a publisher's, most of these end in hostile acquisitions.

The bigger problem here is that you could have very easily achieved the same result by suing Human Head for "not fulfilling the terms of their contract" (and not have to pay a single cent more), but Bethesda never pursued that because they'd have no legal case. If this was presented before an external court that doesn't care about video games, they'd see that Human Head adequately fulfilled all the portions of their contract.

A lawsuit would have been literally cheaper if that was the case. If Bethesda didn't have a documented history of abusing companies in such a way, its people would be granted the same latitude.

BETHESDA OWNS PREY. Human Head fails to complete the project, you take what they've got so far and dump it in some other studio's lap to finish.

The reason you break contract with Human Head is you feel like you're throwing good money after bad; if I pay you, you still won't finish this project, so I'll stop paying you and pay someone else to finish it instead.

Pete Hines "quality" story would ring true if:

1) Bethesda/Zenimax didn't try to acquire the company at the same time it was denying it payment.

2) Bethesda/Zenimax didn't have a recorded history of acquiring companies that way.

With those two elements, that behavior from the company becomes terribly suspicious at best.

Every game Bethesda's published in since New Vegas has missed its release window. Dishonored took four years, Dishonored 2 slipped from Spring 2016 to November, according to the leaked pitch documents Prey was pushed back from Q3 to 2017. Evil Within delayed four months. Wolfenstein: The New Order delayed from the XBONE and PS4 launch to mid-2014. Doom was restarted countless times under their 7 year watch. P2 wasn't an expensive game. HH were a team of 55 in the mid-west. The 15 million marketing budget exceeded the costs of the game. Since they restarted with Arkane, Bethesda had to grow a studio of 24 to 80ish, licence technology and restart the marketing cycle. Pete Hines is a liar because they didn't scrap the game. They took it to Obsidian, and in June 2012, offered "What we said was it was not coming out this year and we're still trying to sort some things out with Human Head," Hines told Eurogamer. "That really hasn't changed. I don't have an update for you on that, other than it's not coming out this year."

Bioware's Jason Richardson, gameplay programmer of P2:


Prey 2's narrative director (currently narrative director for Volition)

Pete Hines after reading...
9VBPNN3.gif


Seriously though, has this situation been run by any of the big game journalist sites? Cuz it should be, if they have the balls anyway. It's the first I'm hearing of it so, sincerely, thank you.
 

Mr. Tibbs

Member
http://rohogames.com/portfolio/prey-2/
When I arrived at Human Head Studios in February of 2011, my jaw hit the floor. I had seen Prey 2 for the first time and it was simply incredible. A labor of love, created by some of the most talented people I’ve ever worked with, it was also one of the most fun games I’ve ever played in mid-development. I would lose myself just jumping around the impressive world (my first job on the project was setting up timed races, so I guess this was appropriate!). Of course this was eventually cancelled, but I’m at least happy to be able to share with you what details I can about this special project.

I joined Human Head as a level scripter (though my role at the company has expanded since then). So my tasks on Prey 2 were entirely of a scripting nature. I created missions, both in the open world and in our dungeon levels. Many times these missions were open ended for the designer, allowing a great deal of variety in implementation. My favorite was a raid in which a faction was planting bombs in an enemy base. Setting up the bombs and combat set pieces in this dungeon allowed me experiment with player tension and pacing. Additionally, I scripted a number of interrogations. You play a bounty hunter in Prey 2, and unlike most FPS games, your gun is holstered unless you choose to hold it up. Doing this would cause reactions from some characters, even causing some to give you valuable information. For example, a character might demand some money from you before they tell you what you need to know, or they might be stubborn for their own reasons. Sometimes I would script it so that raising your gun caused the character to become scared and give up the information; other times, they would fight back, causing a brawl! Scripting these gritty, realistic encounters was, in a word, awesome.

So much stuff people never saw. The laser whip (best melee weapon ever), the rocket boots, the grappling hook... The scene when Tommy appears as the only Human face on Exodus out of a crowd of aliens. Teaming up with a noirish alien night club singer only to be double crossed. The Red Harvest-esque scenario of playing corrupt law enforcement off against the alien syndicate.
 

Jarmel

Banned
It's worth pointing out that they had a good chunk of Prey 2 finished. It wasn't just a vertical slice.

Instead, they get the same old "Prey 2 was never a game" and "It was just a demo" thrown around. Shameful. And completely untrue.

&#8212; Jason L Blair (@jasonlblair) June 1, 2013
 

luka

Loves Robotech S1
http://rohogames.com/portfolio/prey-2/




So much stuff people never saw. The laser whip (best melee weapon ever), the rocket boots, the grappling hook... The scene when Tommy appears as the only Human face on Exodus out of a crowd of aliens. Teaming up with a noirish alien night club singer only to be double crossed. The Red Harvest-esque scenario of playing corrupt law enforcement off against the alien syndicate.

this hurts


this hurts so goddamned much
 
I always have one question? Can't human head just rename the project and do some small tinkering and release game with summer other name. If it was really in alpha state then it just need to be ported to new console or even just PC and needs some polishing

Not if bethesda paid for it.
 

ReaperXL7

Member
Sucks because their new "Vision" for the game looks much less interesting to me then the original version of Prey 2. I was really looking forward to getting this cool sci-fi/Cyberpunk future shooterpg but it just didn't work out, the new iteration just looks like Bioshock in space.
 

BajiBoxer

Banned
Sucks because their new "Vision" for the game looks much less interesting to me then the original version of Prey 2. I was really looking forward to getting this cool sci-fi/Cyberpunk future shooterpg but it just didn't work out, the new iteration just looks like Bioshock in space.
Yeah. I think the new one looks fine, but when compared to what almost was... it's just depressing.
 
Yup, shit happens. Move on. People who keep bringing it up aren't helping.
Eh, Bethesda needs to be called out on their bullshit practices and we as gamers should be aware of the type of scummy deals some publishers/developers try to run because in the end it affects us as well. It's bad for the industry when there are hostile takeovers that could end up closing smaller dev houses.
 

gafneo

Banned
Eh, Bethesda needs to be called out on their bullshit practices and we as gamers should be aware of the type of scummy deals some publishers/developers try to run because in the end it affects us as well. It's bad for the industry when there are hostile takeovers that could end up closing smaller dev houses.

I'm sick and tired of companies in general cancelling games that have a ton of dev time with near finnish builds. I understand why pre-alpha demos get canned, but this was almost done.
 

10k

Banned
http://rohogames.com/portfolio/prey-2/




So much stuff people never saw. The laser whip (best melee weapon ever), the rocket boots, the grappling hook... The scene when Tommy appears as the only Human face on Exodus out of a crowd of aliens. Teaming up with a noirish alien night club singer only to be double crossed. The Red Harvest-esque scenario of playing corrupt law enforcement off against the alien syndicate.

It's a shame I like the new Doom and Wolfenstein because other than those IP I could give a fuck about Bethesda. This shit makes me sad :(
 

gafneo

Banned
I can't get over how this game has nothing to do with Prey. It's like if someone made Jurassic Park 5 and called it The Punisher.
 
Thanks for those posts, Mr. Tibbs. A helpful consolidation of the messy history. Hope more people see this thread since there are so many who still don't know.
 

gafneo

Banned
Thank you for this.

Holy shit. Fuck Bethesda.

Nah, just F that 20 minute board meeting that made one idiot think he was smart for cancelling a good game. Bethesda as a company has given us Doom, Wolfenstien, Fallout, Skyrim, Evil Within, and now Quake.
 
Nah, just F that 20 minute board meeting that made one idiot think he was smart for cancelling a good game. Bethesda as a company has given us Doom, Wolfenstien, Fallout, Skyrim, Evil Within, and now Quake.
id Software, Machine Games, and other devs made those games, not Bethesda the publisher. That's who that poster is referring to.

How do you think Bethesda/ZeniMax acquired those other dev companies?
 
Here is a good site if you want to see a lot of what made up Prey 2 before it was cancelled. 3 different hub worlds, weapons, the sphere, etc. Definitely gonna be using this stuff in an upcoming video on this subject.

http://www.aliennoire.com/home/images/
Looking forward to that video. Hope it coincides with NuPrey's release!

Also, for new page:

Nah. Confirms my thoughts that Hines is a compete sociopath. Here's what the lead world designer said once the caviler Bethesda finally got around to officially cancelling the game.
untitledp5q9j.png


Human Head stopped working on Prey 2 in November 2011 shortly before the game reached alpha after Bethesda tried to buy the studio through milestone abuse. Human Head, hoping Bethesda would honor their original arrangement, attempted to negotiate with Bethesda. Things were moving forward until March 2012, when talks stalled. Zenimax released a warning to Human Head to return to work through a Dutch news outlet that Prey 2 was going to be cancelled next week. That all stopped on April 9th, 2012 after Human Head announced plans to make Rune II.

On April 19th, Bethesda released an extremely passive-aggressive update, before giving the project to Obsidian who worked on it for a few months. Unfortunately, since they didn't have the source code, or rights to use any of the internal tech Human Head owned (mega-textures, global-based lighting, etc), it was doomed from the start. It was cancelled and quietly removed from Bethesda's upcoming titles on their site in August 2012.

Pre-E3 2011, the game was scheduled for a late March 2012 release. After Prey 2 was nominated for game of the show, Bethesda offered Human Head, a team of 55 in the Midwest more time and money to flesh out the game world. The game was nearly at an alpha state when Human Head stopped working in November 2011.

Milestone abuse and a failed hostile acquisitions basically goes like this:

Bethesda disputes Milestones - reasonable or not - and withholds payment while Zenimax, the parent company, offers to loan money while the issues are being sorted, saying it's just an administrative issue that is bound to get resolved, then after several milestones aren't met and the money "lent" becomes too important, it offers to buy the company as a solution.

The companies have done it several times already. Given their documented history, there is no reason to grant them the benefit of the doubt: this is a planned, predatory practice.

If you're giving me money and it looks like I'm failing, and you don't want to give me more money because you don't trust that I can complete the project, why are you trying to buy out my studio?

That's the six million dollar question: if this really was a case of Human Head dropping the ball, ******* up development and ruining Bethesda's investment, why did Bethesda want to pour more money into acquiring the entire studio/team in addition to the product?

The fact is, Human Head were doing such a good job that Bethesda pretended they were doing a shit job so they could gain the financial leverage needed to acquire the entire studio.

I'll try to explain it as best I can. I'm sure there's a proper phrase for it in consumer advocacy environments, but I just call it milestone abuse.

In a traditional publisher-developer relationship in the video games industry, the publisher usually pays the developer through a number of milestones. Here's an example.

> Milestone 1: Exit pre-production with a final design plan
> Milestone 2: Finish X number of levels and audio/graphical assets
> Milestone 3: Have a "vertical slice" demo (showing all core features)
> Milestone 4: Establish a pipeline with the quality assurance testers

Stuff like that.

This system is technically great since it keeps the developer accountable. They only get paid if they keep working and showing progress. I WISH they'd have something like this for Kickstarter.

The problem with milestone abuse is when the milestone criteria isn't shown to the public (due to corporate confidentiality and all of that). Since it's kept behind closed doors, people who actually give a shit can't make sure that the publisher isn't trying to exploit the developer by exploiting loopholes in the contract.

Since most studios can only afford to work on one major project at a time, they need the milestone payments in order to stay afloat. However, if the publisher wants to intentionally bankrupt the developer so that they can purchase their IPs and employee contracts (hostile acquisition), then the publisher just has to ride it out and see who runs out of money first. Since the publisher is almost always wealthier, they just have to play a waiting game and arbitrarily fail the milestones.

> Yeah, you set up a quality assurance pipeline but we don't think it's good enough. No, we don't have to explain why. You think anyone out there's going to look through this contract?

> Yeah, you exited pre-production, but we still count those 10 meetings you did afterwards as part of it. Actually, you deserve less money than we gave. Maybe you should be happy that we're just withholding payment and not suing you.

> You call this a vertical slice? We didn't finish focus testing yet! We still might want more features! Oh, we didn't tell you? That's not our problem.

Once the developer gets desperate enough and they almost reach bankruptcy, the publisher is in a good position to force a buy-out. Since whether or not they did anything legally wrong is really, really complicated and the developer no longer has any money to hire a legal team that can rival a publisher's, most of these end in hostile acquisitions.

The bigger problem here is that you could have very easily achieved the same result by suing Human Head for "not fulfilling the terms of their contract" (and not have to pay a single cent more), but Bethesda never pursued that because they'd have no legal case. If this was presented before an external court that doesn't care about video games, they'd see that Human Head adequately fulfilled all the portions of their contract.

A lawsuit would have been literally cheaper if that was the case. If Bethesda didn't have a documented history of abusing companies in such a way, its people would be granted the same latitude.

BETHESDA OWNS PREY. Human Head fails to complete the project, you take what they've got so far and dump it in some other studio's lap to finish.

The reason you break contract with Human Head is you feel like you're throwing good money after bad; if I pay you, you still won't finish this project, so I'll stop paying you and pay someone else to finish it instead.

Pete Hines "quality" story would ring true if:

1) Bethesda/Zenimax didn't try to acquire the company at the same time it was denying it payment.

2) Bethesda/Zenimax didn't have a recorded history of acquiring companies that way.

With those two elements, that behavior from the company becomes terribly suspicious at best.

Every game Bethesda's published in since New Vegas has missed its release window. Dishonored took four years, Dishonored 2 slipped from Spring 2016 to November, according to the leaked pitch documents Prey was pushed back from Q3 to 2017. Evil Within delayed four months. Wolfenstein: The New Order delayed from the XBONE and PS4 launch to mid-2014. Doom was restarted countless times under their 7 year watch. P2 wasn't an expensive game. HH were a team of 55 in the mid-west. The 15 million marketing budget exceeded the costs of the game. Since they restarted with Arkane, Bethesda had to grow a studio of 24 to 80ish, licence technology and restart the marketing cycle. Pete Hines is a liar because they didn't scrap the game. They took it to Obsidian, and in June 2012, offered "What we said was it was not coming out this year and we're still trying to sort some things out with Human Head," Hines told Eurogamer. "That really hasn't changed. I don't have an update for you on that, other than it's not coming out this year."

Bioware's Jason Richardson, gameplay programmer of P2:


Prey 2's narrative director (currently narrative director for Volition)
 
Top Bottom