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[Gizuko]

I don't really like this design either, not because of the skin shown, which isn't really a problem (I found Shulk's trunks funny, tbh), but because it looks like the damn armor would stab him in four different places before he finished swinging that sword.

Of course there are (many) other bikini armors out there that are ugly/badly designed and wouldn't work either, but that doesn't make this one any better, it's like crying over spilt milk.

 

[Auto-Reply]

It's bad!
Not only because it's a useless armor or is supposed to make the character look sexy/cool (it fails at that too)

The design is bad, you have large extending bowls/plates on your legs with huge gaps, they seem to hover over whatever is underneath.
A mirrored shoulder bowl on the upper and lower (front/back) side of the shoulder? With huge spikes that will cost you you're eyesight if you point at someting and rotate your shoulder.
it looks like metal baggy pants, a Final Fantasy McHammer. I hate the sword too, on top its a Jedi light saber handle but theres a formless metal 4x4 with a boltet on blade attached to it. Everything has this pearlescent paint-coating which makes it look flimsy and made out of glass.

 

[Etnos]

But the design is really fucking bad

like 99% of everything Squre Enix do these days, remember that Jim Sterling video? spot on...

 

[Angelus Errare]

You're making the enormous mistake of generalizing, exactly like the misguided blog post you defend. "people" go through all kinds of... and "everyone's closet homophobia".

You just defeated your own argument. Not only you can't demonstrate in any shape or form that those views represent everyone, but not even a relevant majority.


But hey, let's not forget that we're talking about a blog post by someone who is perpetuating an atrocious misquote of something said by a colleague to support an agenda.

Of course, she's totally got an agenda! (Like is "agenda" the only word people have to counter female complaints? Jesus) She's totes just trying to ruin gaming or whatever argument people were using against Anita. #NotAllGamers

 

[Crossing Eden]

Read my post again I wasn't talking specifically about your views. I was merely stating that the bold in your sentence is something that isn't even specific to this particular character model. As for your statement of not liking bikini armor, yes in the rare thread in which it's the guy on display these kind of statements are often echoed but really only serve to detract from the underlying issue Brianna is speaking on.

Mechanical nonsensical designs go hand in hand with almost all female bikini body armor in videogaming. I just find it pointless to point out the lack of mechanical design in a thread about the hypocrisy and double standard (Brianna even makes this point herself). The designs themselves are largely inconsequential to the entire argument she's presenting, again she makes a point of this. Simply because even if there was such thing as a "well designed" bikini armor at the end of the day the main issue will remain...the bikini armor itself and how utterly perverse it is in gaming for female characters.

This portion not aimed at you, but I do love the double standard in gaming. Female bikini armor people go through all kinds of mental decathlons to excuse it to include random and utterly pointless anecdotal evidence about how they know some random female who enjoys it, there for it's okay regardless of how shit the design is. Yet the minute there's a male character rocking this shit, everyone's closet homophobia among other issues comes busting out and they suddenly start caring about the "design".

The blog's argument still kinda falls flat unless every single person who expressed their distaste at some point defended bikini armor. Two wrongs do not make a right. It's a horrible generalization for her to imply that every one of those comments is an example of hypocrisy when some of them actually do make a point that it isn't because it's sexualized but because it's just a shitty design. The other part of the argument that falls flat on it's face is that the character isn't presented as "cool and stoic" but instead "sexy and vulnerable." That's just objectively false. There's literally only one screenshot that shows the MC in a vulnerable state, as in, he's sleeping and/or knocked out. The other screens are him being "cool and stoic."

 

[Abriael]

I love how this person has literally found proof that there's a double standard when it comes to sexualisation in games

Only, she hasn't. Because she didn't in any shape or form demonstrated that those that made those comments approve of bikini armor, nor that they represent a relevant percentage/majority. Evidence of a double standards needs to show two standards. I see just one.

An assumption is no evidence (this is the word you're looking for, by the way).

Of course, she's totally got an agenda! (Like is "agenda" the only word people have to counter female complaints? Jesus) She's totes just trying to ruin gaming or whatever argument people were using against Anita. #NotAllGamers

You seem to have missed the other 29 words of that line. How comes?

Using disingenuous methods to support a point is a telltale sign of having an agenda. By the way, the word "agenda" is not strictly negative. The methods she's using to support it are.

 

[Jawmuncher]

I'm just trying to figure out what the game is still. Same question I had in the other thread. Didn't care about the design.

 

[WanderingWind]

Of course, she's totally got an agenda! (Like is "agenda" the only word people have to counter female complaints? Jesus) She's totes just trying to ruin gaming or whatever argument people were using against Anita. #NotAllGamers

Trying a bit too hard to squeeze that one in there. Throwing in a #NotAll doesn't really work here.

 

[captainpat]

You could post nearly any Soul Caliber female character design and I'm sure it wouldn't get the same comments. Sigh.

I love how this person has literally found proof that there's a double standard when it comes to sexualisation in games and people are still refuting it. It's like the whole "I'm not against gay people but I'm uncomfortable with the idea of playing as a gay character" argument.

This. Sure there some people that would thing it's wrong on genders but lets not pretend as if there aren't a bunch of gamers that hate outfit but would would jump over backwards to defend this on a female character

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

The fact is, medieval women's armour in the style of men's armour, just never existed. There's no known records of any women's armour and even Joan of Arc's contemporary pictures never showed her in armour, they were a later addition by later artists. Female armour was... well, men's armour. Armour wasn't something most people even got in medieval war, it was reserved for those who could afford it, knights and so on.

From an entirely historical point of view, there should be no females even wearing said armour or they should be wearing men's armour.

From an entirely fantasty point of view, it doesn't matter, armour in games tends to look ridiculous anyway. The more sensible it looks, the less effective it is. Armour design in games is generally not great. The picture in the OP is bad regardless of who is wearing it and it's certainly not something I would want to see on a custom created character of either gender. In fact, when given the option, I do prefer to have female characters wearing armour that, at least, looks like it offers protection but it's entirely fantasy and if someone wants to make OP picture armour, then have at it, but give options for something less revealing as well.

 

[Nibel]

Hypocrisy would mean that the blog post must have also dug up proof of every poster mentioned that they evaluate female body armor differently, but of course it doesn't because it is just quicker and more comfortable to collect a bunch of posts that fit the own agenda and present it to tumblr as this and that.

Personally, I don't think of the design as being good - just like the Cidney/Cindy one - but considering on which platform this game is developed with the target audience in mind it makes sense.

It's very amusing to have this debate because of Final Fantasy since this is not out of the ordinary for the series.

 

[GrandHarrier]

Let's be honest. FF's design direction has been God awful for more than a decade now and I've long since gotten to the point that something like in the OP doesn't even surprise me.

 

[Riposte]

Trying a bit too hard to squeeze that one in there. Throwing in a #NotAll doesn't really work here.

Going too far is always a risk when you try to maximize snarkiness.

This. Sure there some people that would thing it's wrong on genders but lets not pretend as if there aren't a bunch of gamers that hate outfit but would would jump over backwards to defend this on a female character

What do we mean when we say "hate" and "defend"? Are they even necessarily opposed? Can't you defend the existence of something you hate and hate something you have no problems with existing? The tumblr in question is pretty much on a quest to fight "bikini armor", which I wouldn't really equate with knee-jerk reactions to a specific armor design.

 

[Parakeetman]

This. Sure there some people that would thing it's wrong on genders but lets not pretend as if there aren't a bunch of gamers that hate outfit but would would jump over backwards to defend this on a female character

Thats only if you are cherry picking and forget that there are a lot of topless / open chested male characters in the game also.

Then there is Voldo who is a lot more popular than folks think that only judge him based on his appearances.

 

[lazygecko]

The best part about this design is how the plate has separate breast holders (lol)...which I imagine would be very uncomfortable for women.

This is what it would/should look like

Just a single sheet that covers the entire chest, not this individual metal holder breast emphasiser...because I mean how else would we know it's a woman!?

This is how heavy armors worked for both genders in Dragon Age: Origins. You should have seen the amount of complaints on the Bioware forums.

Also I am not really buying this narrative that these types of designs grosses women out. It just seems like conjecture to me without any tangible studies to back it up. My experience (yeah yeah, anecdotal evidence disclaimer) from RPG communities like The Elder Scrolls or World of Warcraft is that women and men both enjoy these types of designs. It's not that strange really. The beauty standards that society imposes on us from birth tells us that the female anatomy is inherently something beautiful and aesthetically pleasing. No reason to think these values don't affect both genders the same way.

 

[WanderingWind]

It's very amusing to have this debate because of Final Fantasy since this is not out of the ordinary for the series.

I'm saying. Of all the groups to levy the "oh, is this not dudebro masculine enough for ya?" taunts at, people who play Japanese roleplaying games probably aren't really the most salient target. Those darn Atelier, FF and Tales fans, always conforming to societies views of masculinity.

 

[Abriael]

The tumblr in question is pretty much on a quest to fight "bikini armor"

Which, mind you, is in serious conflict with this part:

So Final Fantasy finally (all puns intended) decided to fully embrace its female-gazey nature and released initial promo pics with a male character not being cool and stoic, but under-dressed, sexy and vulnerable? Me like!

(and she added the picture below)

So she disapproves of sexy female armor, but approves of sexy male armor?

It's quite hilarious that Wu set out to expose other people's double standards/hypocrisy (and she really doesn't manage to), but actually succeeded in proving her own.

 

[cyress8]

Its a very bad design, not because of the skin. Those thigh plates. Wtf, is that! I can't help but see huge, jumbo thighs on this guy and it looks silly to me. I don't' mind the skin, but damn, they have to do something about how the armor looks in general.

 

[Riposte]

Its a very bad design, not because of the skin. Those thigh plates. Wtf, is that! I can't help but see huge, jumbo thighs on this guy and it looks silly to me. I don't' mind the skin, but damn, they have to do something about how the armor looks in general.

It's possible the reaction would be more positive with less armor now that you mention it. I don't think it is bad, I do feel like the metal parts are a bit too tacked on.

 

[fertygo]

Stop creating false equivalence

For example, I like this

And yeah I'll call that Mevius design god awful, just because its does look aesthetically eye blinding. Not because these hypocrisy bullcrap nonsense.

 

[Parakeetman]

Sure, I"m just pointing out that the shirtless FF protag has precedent. And if you're playing Final Fantasy and being upset about "feminized" character design, you (general you, not Parakeetman) lack any speck of self-awareness. Amano's art work was beautiful, but it hardly conformed to "traditional" masculine designs.

Amano captures what some would consider the very essence of fantasy, which is why I think his works are very popular with people that are into the type of setting / style. Very unique style he has.

Though as time changes so does peoples tastes in art / design, which is one reason why hes not as popular as he used to be outside of those who were originally familiar with his work and already liked it. More riding off the nostalgia factor so to speak, not exactly in a negative way, but not positive either. Though most def his art style will always remain a timeless classic due to the uniqueness of it.

 

[captainpat]

Thats only if you are cherry picking and forget that there are a lot of topless / open chested male characters in the game also.

Then there is Voldo who is a lot more popular than folks think that only judge him based on his appearances.

Sounds like false equivalence to me cause almost none of the characters look like and/or are presented like this final fantasy guy.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Oi I was right, it literally floats in place during the ingame screenshots.

 

[Riposte]

Stop creating false equivalence

For example, I like this

And yeah I'll call that Mevius design god awful, just because its does look aesthetically eye blinding. Not because these hypocrisy bullcrap nonsense.

Ah, JoJo's...

 

[gngf123]

Some of the comments in the OP specifically refer to his lack clothes, which I have absolutely no problem with. If the writer focused entirely on comments like that, and similar ones saying how the design "works on a girl", and didn't pick up general comments calling out bad character design I'd find it hard to disagree with the sentiment at all, even if I don't subscribe to the "bad armour design quota" line of thought at all.

There's a good point in there somewhere though, sexy armour is much more accepted and common on girls than it is guys.

I also liked Shulk's trunks. And wouldn't be against more "sexy" male armour in games.

This character design just isn't very good.

 

[WanderingWind]

Amano captures what some would consider the very essence of fantasy, which is why I think his works are very popular with people that are into the type of setting / style. Very unique style he has.

Yeah, his watercolor designs for FFVI are the pinnacle of intricacy in game character design.

 

[Glass Rebel]

Yeah, I think it's fair to say that "sexy" armour is way more accepted when worn by females and it's worth examining further. I just don't think that the way she presents her "evidence" is very convincing or compelling. Half of the quotes there are simply stating the obvious: That the design is terrible. It's not a knee-jerk reaction. You can see the character from several different angles and it's terrible either way you slice it. Ashley Riot from Vagrant Story doesn't get the hate this design does despite dat ass.

and...

The thing is, we’re waaaaay past the “badly designed sexy female armor” quota, so there’s lots of “badly designed sexy male armor” quota to meet. And until balance of the two is restored, I don’t really think anyone is in the position to request male sexyness to be up to some arbitrary design quality standard.

...this is a terrible argument and a terrible way of looking at things.

 

[jwk94]

Wow, definitely thought he was a girl.

 

[Shrike_Priest]

She has? Every thread about FFXV since her reveal has had people running in to complain about it, all the while completely ignoring Gladiolus' redesign. And the whole "she's a mechanic and wouldn't dress like that" argument doesn't hold up in a world where the main characters are fighting armored enemies while wearing designer clothing.

Actually, yeah it does. They're supposed to be this rich princish dude and his posse, of course they're gonna go around in badass designer clothing. One might argue that they'd don the some riot gear when going in, but that kind of suspense of disbelief we give to pretty much any pop-culture depiction of violence.

An exposed muscular torso is as much a symbol of power as it is of sexuality. When Bruce Lee takes his top off, it's not to induce ladyboners in half the audience, it's to make the rest go "phwoaar, look at that muscle! dude must bench like a ton!".

Cindy's design is terrible. Gladiolus isn't good either, but the whole "bare chested warrior"-ideal is way more well established than the "bare chested mechanic". Yes, to a degree it's undoubtedly fan-service, but the two are not equatable. Cid's role in FF has always been that of a mechanic/engineer. Her outfit is shameless fan-service and should be called out as such. And the Gladiolus design should be called out too (especially the redesign), but they are not the same thing.

 

[Lucumo]

The best part about this design is how the plate has separate breast holders (lol)...which I imagine would be very uncomfortable for women.

This is what it would/should look like

Just a single sheet that covers the entire chest, not this individual metal holder breast emphasiser...because I mean how else would we know it's a woman!?

You think so? I would guess it depends on what is underneath. If you wear a bra, it shouldn't really matter. Problem is probably the individual breast size, so this seems more of a custom armor. Your armor is fine as well and certainly much easier to craft.

 

[Aquamarine]

it's a fundamentally bad design. the same armor / design on a girl would not look good at all.

i have no problem with sexy male outfits.

hell, i encourage them. always nice to see sexy characters in video games, male or female.


is there a problem with gaf criticizing the armor unfairly (aka. if a girl wore it it would be okay)?

there might be a bit of that, but i think a lot of people genuinely just don't like the design regardless of gender so it's skewed.

My guess is that bad female designs get more of a pass. It's sort of like how a guy will give a stupid (But sexually appealing) girl a pass in many things, but they won't give a stupid (but sexually appealing) guy the same sort of slack.

With that said, FF doesn't seem to be the worst offender in gaming sexism by any stretch.

and that's something to think about and consider, because that tolerance towards bad, sexualized female designs definitely exists.

 

[captainpat]

Wow, definitely thought he was a girl.

He reminds me of the main character from Magna Carta

and yes that's a dude

 

[Bold One]

Wait, it was a tumblr blog post?

No wonder, its so far removed from reality

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Yeah, I think it's fair to say that "sexy" armour is way more accepted when worn by females and it's worth examining further. I just don't think that the way she presents her "evidence" is very convincing or compelling. Half of the quotes there are simply stating the obvious: That the design is terrible. It's not a knee-jerk reaction. You can see the character from several different angles and it's terrible either way you slice it. Ashley Riot from Vagrant Story doesn't get the hate this design does despite dat ass.

and...



...this is a terrible argument and a terrible way of looking at things.

It helps that the design you posted has a horrible low quality texture which makes it hard to distinguish that that's ass, and therefore less people are likely to notice or go looking for it.

 

[Turin Turambar]

Isn't it character design of JRPGs usually derided? Both male and female.
At least by non-fans of jrpgs.

From ridiculous shaped armors to skimpy outfits to really frigging weird clothes to accessories ahoy (belts!), etc etc. Nothing new.

 

[Cipherr]

I suppose Ill take enlightenment to how awful Squares character design is any way it comes.

This ain't new though, these guys suck. Either its a ridiculous about of belts buckles and shit no human would be able to wear while walking straight or its some preposterous floating, barely there bullshit that looks like something out of cheap sci fi accompanied by some over the top shades (I see you Final Fantasy).

Their character design sucks ass. Male, female, men, women, alien, whatever. Its sucked for a long fucking time. Guy in the OP looks like he is wearing metal plated Cross Trainers for fucks sake.

 

[Glass Rebel]

It helps that the design you posted has a horrible low quality texture which makes it hard to distinguish that that's ass, and therefore less people are likely to notice or go looking for it.

Honestly, I was just looking for an excuse to post something from Vagrant Story.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

I guarantee you the majority of those comments are males still uncomfortable with their own sexuality especially the ones using homophobic language.

 

[Falk]

I'm glad this thread exists because the horse wasn't beaten into a fine powder just quite enough with the previous one.

 

[Parakeetman]

Hey, I think I recognize that dude

I'm kind of partial towards this one tho..

The other thing that I appreciated about that gladiator subligar set, was that you could tell the designers behind it actually did somewhat a bit of research into historical armor and such from the time period when such things were worn in the Colosseum of Rome.

While not an real world picture, gives a pretty good idea. If you do various searches you can find a lot of other examples. While its not perfect as in exactly like what appeared historically, they did capture the general design aspects in FF14. Really do have to applaud the team behind the designs of the equipment in general.

Since was always a fan of the type of combat that took place in the Colosseum an interesting title back on the PSP was called "Gladiator Begins". Esp the fact that the pieces of armor had meaning to protecting your body parts. Gameplay was a bit jank at times, but still gave the player a pretty interesting experience if you can master the game mechanics. Was also released on the PS2 as "Colosseum Road to Freedom"

If you are interested in the era / Colosseum type of combat and where armor makes an actual difference by all means check it out.

The PSP one is a slightly more complete version compared to the PS2 one which still had a lot of issues. I own / have played through an excessive amount with all versions of the game that was originally released first here in Japan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AU16mdW_KjY

 

[GhostTrick]

The problem isn't skimpy armor. The problem is that it looks bad. But not because it's skimpy or sexy. Just because the design looks weird.

 

[abadguy]

No thanks, I'd rather oppose sexy armor designs like that regardless of gender so they stop being a thing altogether. Putting them on a male character doesn't magically make them okay.

I'll just oppose shitty character designs in general no matter how covered or uncovered they are. I don't go around trying to make the "how is that practical" argument when it comes to fantasy in general (i find it funny when people do though since the practicality argumen only arises when talking about "certain characters") i do speak up however wen the design just looks stupid, which this does.

 

[TheYanger]

Many (presumably) male video game players aren't interested in this character design. Heaven forbid.

You could go to any thread about a poorly designed half naked female character on this forum and find the exact same sorts of posts.

Am I saying female armor should look like that all the time? not in the least, but why should anyone have to censor their opinion of the character design? Nobody does the other way either.

Would the author be outraged at people posting this same thing about a female character design? No? Because that happens too. If you want to say that it leans more one way than the other I will absolutely agree, but that's more a symbol of our culture overall and (I'm assuming here) the demographics of the internet gaming forum world in general.

 

[Bold One]

Honestly, I was just looking for an excuse to post something from Vagrant Story.

it is a great game

 

[Parakeetman]

I'll just oppose shitty character designs in general no matter how covered or uncovered they are. I don't go around trying to make the "how is that practical" argument when it comes to fantasy in general (i find it funny when people do though since the practicality argumen only arises when talking about "certain characters") i do speak up however wen the design just looks stupid, which this does.

Part of the "practicality" argument also comes from those who actually work in the industry esp ones who do work with / have knowledge of how animations and such will work and where problematic points in a bad design will have an effect on the characters appearance in game depending on the types of motions performed.

In short bad clipping (object passing through / into the character)

One example here, granted know a lot of folks will not be familiar with this as it has not been released in the West is, Phantasy Star Nova. As some of the armor designs were just made for "style" yet no thought put into how they will actually work in game causing all sorts of weird clipping issues, even when the character stands idle which is bad. Considering that is something which should be caught as soon as the artist / modeler pulls it up on their system as the default idle pose pieces of the character or armor clip into each other. Which is a sign of poor design.

 

[pants]

I guarantee you the majority of those comments are males still uncomfortable with their own sexuality especially the ones using homophobic language.

PSA to the Buy, Sell, Trade thread : This guy's guarantees aren't worth shit.

 

[Bold One]

I guarantee you the majority of those comments are males still uncomfortable with their own sexuality especially the ones using homophobic language.

what? how did we get there?

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

PSA to the Buy, Sell, Trade thread : This guy's guarantees aren't worth shit.

How so?

 

[Zaptruder]

Is it sexist if we just have demands for better design when men are in skimpy armor?

We seem to happily accept most crappy female outfits that are sexy... as long as its sexy.

 

[captainpat]

Regardless of whether or not it's bad design can everyone at least admit that if outfit was on a female character it would be given waaaay more slack and defense, maybe not by you individual but in general.

I'm sure the point of that blog post is just is just pointing how hypocritical the gaming community is about this stuff