DoubleTake
Member
Something that occurred to me. Why isnt Willem in the Hunter's Nightmare as well? We can assume he was with Byrgenwerth when this happened because they very specifically went searching for eyes on the inside of the villagers.
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Bloodborne Story and Lore Discussion Thread [Unmarked Spoilers]
- Thread starter GorillaJu
- Start date
Something that occurred to me. Why isnt Willem in the Hunter's Nightmare as well? We can assume he was with Byrgenwerth when this happened because they very specifically went searching for eyes on the inside of the villagers.
Newtype-001
Member
Fancy Clown
Member
My guess is that either it's because Laurence is really the one who led the defilement of the hamlet, since he seems way more like the type to use force, or maybe because he's not dead yet in the waking world and he certainly didn't become blood drunk.
Isn't this the same for Gehrman?"Further to this we gain the Old Hunter bone from the same gravestone in the Old Workshop that, in the Dream workshop, is used to access the nightmare. In the battle Maria will use quickening but - unlike every other character that uses it - she has no animation for using the bone. The only conclusion is that it is hers."
avrophantasm
Member
Lothrics made a fantastic post over on tumblr outlining the possibilities for a connection between The Orphan of Kos and Gehrman. They believe the sound bite alludes to the possibility of Gehrman slipping into the Nightmare when he sleeps, due to having a big role in the purging of the Fishing Hamlet. The Orphan wants Gehrman to suffer like how it suffered. The dark fog hanging around Kos is the Orphan's true form; the creature we fight is a constructed body based on Gehrman that it uses to protect itself; I guess somewhat like False King Allant.
FlowersisBritish
fleurs n'est pas britannique
That's a lot more reasonalbe a theory than I came up with when i heard the sound bite. I really like the bit about all the big characters suffering appropriatley, but I don't think Lawrence had a role in purgin Old Yarnham? I think he was dead by then? The time line is very confusing. I also don't get Maria's punishment.
Anyway, here's a crazy half bake theory of my own. I think the Orphan of Kos is actually Ebriatus. Yeah, the form is initially human but when it enters it's second phase it grows and more importantly the bulging pink sack grows as well, along with his flesh cape becoming kind of wings. If we look at the flesh sack as the spot where Ebriatus's face eventually grows, they look kind of similar. Ebriatus is reffered to as the left behind great one, and my big thing is that she is praying at an altar that travels back in time. The thing that's sustaining the nightmare(the shadow) isn't the ghost of the Orphan, but of Kos. When you slay it, the scenes says Kos's soul returns to the Ocean. Basically, I think the being tormenting Germhan isn't the Orphan, but Kos itself.
I like how the Decorative Old Hunter set mention old hunters tying their right leg along with the using certain metals thinking it would ward off beast blood then mention superstitions during the night of the hunt implying that this doesn't actually work. But then you look at the set stats and it has better blood defense than the regular Old Hunter set. 
Fancy Clown
Member
Orphan definitely isn't Ebrietas, since the healing church found her in a Chalice dungeon I believe. And the healing church didn't exist when Byrgenworth found the orphan.
SoldnerKei
Member
does anyone know if there is any statement if there is possible that we reach two Grand Cathedrals on the DLC? one is the one where Laurence is chilling, the other where we access the Research Hall, you can see the same building from the bridge with the bloodticks things near the shortcut to the first lamp.
Also the lamp closer to Ludwig is on a building that looks pretty alike the one where we access Old Yarnham, but terrain is heavily altered here, as the terrain looks more like the nightmare frontier rather than Yarnham, as you come closer to Ludwig it looks again like Yarnham sewers. Since the nightmare is supposed to be based on memories I guess it make sense that the world is messed up to certain degree. that said, both lamps are on locations that resembles places close to Grand Cathedral, that's why I wonder if we are actually seeing two perspectives on this Hunter's Nightmare.
another thing is, when you go down the tunnel after the Grand Cathedral where Laurance is, on the spot with the box guns, you can see an Amygdala carcass, took me a while to notice this was actually an Amygdala and not just random scenary to take cover, maybe that's why we found an Amygdala's arm as weapon further on.
Also the lamp closer to Ludwig is on a building that looks pretty alike the one where we access Old Yarnham, but terrain is heavily altered here, as the terrain looks more like the nightmare frontier rather than Yarnham, as you come closer to Ludwig it looks again like Yarnham sewers. Since the nightmare is supposed to be based on memories I guess it make sense that the world is messed up to certain degree. that said, both lamps are on locations that resembles places close to Grand Cathedral, that's why I wonder if we are actually seeing two perspectives on this Hunter's Nightmare.
another thing is, when you go down the tunnel after the Grand Cathedral where Laurance is, on the spot with the box guns, you can see an Amygdala carcass, took me a while to notice this was actually an Amygdala and not just random scenary to take cover, maybe that's why we found an Amygdala's arm as weapon further on.
Fancy Clown
Member
Yeah there are two grand cathedrals in the nightmare. Not sure why though? Maybe they represent the split between humanity and beasthood since one has beast Laurence in it and the other had his human skull?
And the Amygdala skeleton was a cool touch, I noticed that as well. They are such mysterious creatures and I have no idea what their motives are. Do they work for Kos, considering it sent you to the Nightmare after it mistook you for a blood drunk hunter since you have the eye of one?
And the Amygdala skeleton was a cool touch, I noticed that as well. They are such mysterious creatures and I have no idea what their motives are. Do they work for Kos, considering it sent you to the Nightmare after it mistook you for a blood drunk hunter since you have the eye of one?
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Reposting this from the DLC thread:
Mind-blowing indeed.
The lore of this game is just the best.
From's writers or Miyazaki or whoever are amazing. Anyone interested in understanding a bit of the background/reasoning behind why things are named the way they are in the game NEEDS to read this thread on reddit. My mind is literally blown at the level of depth and attention to detail they put into this game. https://www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne...s_everything_makes_sense_now/?sort=confidence
Rupture of Membranes...
Subacrachnoid Space....
3 Meninges: Dura Mater(Tough mother), Arachnoid Mater(Spider Mother), Pia Mater(Tender Mother)....Kos, ROM, and Mergo
Blood-Brain Barrier....
Mind-blowing indeed.
The lore of this game is just the best.
DoubleTake
Member
Its very very interesting. At this point we all know that From usually has a reason for why they do things in these games. The post above should be evidence enough. I hope the guide sheds some true light on whats going on with the Orphan/Mergo/Gehrman parallels.
Orochinagis
Member
He is a baby, an old baby staying too much time on Kos corpse
If that theory is true, it follows how lazy is From in reussing assets instead of doing specific assets to the other Roms corpse being craked up and the realization of methamorphosis would sit faster and makes a lot of sense not just a random realization of something and everyone will follow because there are not other ways to explain whats happening on Yharman in that topic.
The second cathedral is on the Upper Cathedral ward, the layout is kinda modified to fit the nightmare scenario so far, in ther nightmare you are in Cathedral Ward and go to the Upper cathedral ward where is the lower yharman town, the hunters workshop and you climb up the clocktower from its base. on the base game you can go to the lower yharman twon but the area is so small and the door of the tower is closed.
Yup, is an amydgala maybe the hunters killed all of them of the poor amydgalas were fused as terrain to support the nightmare like the people on Yahargul being fused on the wall because scenery
Fancy Clown
Member
They do have the same shape but I don't know what the connection would be. I really have no idea what the winter lanterns are in terms of the story, same with the messengers since they both make up the lantern's head and can be seen on the undersides of the squidy creatures in nightmare frontier.
I think the research hall patients are precursors to celestials, which the living failures further cement as they are failed celestial emmissaries.
FlowersisBritish
fleurs n'est pas britannique
I'm actually pretty sure the patients are attempts to become celestial emissaries. My big thing for this is that you get a key that unlocks to a flower garden where you originally fight the Celestial Emissary, and those heads use the same magic on you.
Fancy Clown
Member
I guess I didn't really think about it but Kos and its Orphan are almost certainly the first Great Ones Byrgenwerth had ever encountered. Until that point they had just found phantasms and records of their existence from the Chalices. They likely don't meet Ebrietas until they perfect the living failures into celestial emissarys which allows the healing church to make contact.
Also, the statue of Willem and two other members standing over the withered corpse below the research hall? That's totally the Orphan right? Further lends credence to the sin being them killing and dissecting the Orphan in their studies just as they had the villagers of the hamlet. And I think in the statue it is missing its limbs, because I'm assuming Gherman and Maria cut off its limbs since it wouldn't be experimented on willingly. Then they cracked open it's head to look for eyes, just as you place the eye pendent in their. The brain fluid they use to create the blob head patients in the research hall probably came from the Orphan, too which would explain why they're trapped in the nightmare as well.
And Maria says "secrets beckon sweetly", so she was along for the ride. They did all this horrible stuff because this was their first encounter with Great Ones and wanted as much knowledge as possible. She was probably the one to kill the Orphan if she was so sickened she chucked her sword down a well and then eventually left a grave marker/and or lumenwood flower for Kos and the Orphan.
Also, the statue of Willem and two other members standing over the withered corpse below the research hall? That's totally the Orphan right? Further lends credence to the sin being them killing and dissecting the Orphan in their studies just as they had the villagers of the hamlet. And I think in the statue it is missing its limbs, because I'm assuming Gherman and Maria cut off its limbs since it wouldn't be experimented on willingly. Then they cracked open it's head to look for eyes, just as you place the eye pendent in their. The brain fluid they use to create the blob head patients in the research hall probably came from the Orphan, too which would explain why they're trapped in the nightmare as well.
And Maria says "secrets beckon sweetly", so she was along for the ride. They did all this horrible stuff because this was their first encounter with Great Ones and wanted as much knowledge as possible. She was probably the one to kill the Orphan if she was so sickened she chucked her sword down a well and then eventually left a grave marker/and or lumenwood flower for Kos and the Orphan.
avrophantasm
Member
Hey, everyone. If anyone's interested, Redgrave's put together a second version of the Paleblood Hunt. With the addition of the lore from the DLC, it's pretty useful for getting a good grasp of the game's timeline.
BossDarkseid
Member
Lol I only got up to Chapter 2 the other day...I'll give this a read later on.
Blood borne is equal parts bizarre and brilliant.
Having actually completed a "Souls" game in Bloodborne twice now, I want to go back for Dark, Dark 2 and Demons if it comes to PS4....
Nice, will give it a read now.
I haven't touched the game and I doubt I ever will, but the story and mythos of it had me on a wild goosehunt a few weeks ago while scouring through wikis and descriptions and being horrified at some of the abominations and the links between them all. The Pthumerians unsettle me.
That's right, I don't know why I didn't pay much attention to it before, or that no one has talked about it. It definitely seems like the corpse could be the Orphan. It definitely depicts that they are performing experiments and rituals over this corpse.
One thing I noticed, there is a small whispering voice that is a bit muffled at the entrance of the Fishing Hamlet, near the lamp. While wearing the Milkweed Rune, the guy chanting in the beginning mentions 'listen for the baneful chants, wherever they may be.' I decided to take that literally and see if I can make out what that voice is saying.
So far I can make out it says Bergenwerth, and it says something about the mother, and something about the baby, and something about the curse is upon us....
I can also make out words 'a call to...' and 'blood'.
Do you think this is worth searching for? I wonder if there are other voice tracks hidden within the Hamlet. You can hear the voice best by positioning yourself against the building in a corner where it is loudest, and swirl the camera around so that it is physically close to the building.
EDIT: Now that I listen further, it sounds like it is rhyming. I can almost make it out.
EDIT 2: I can hear it more clearly where the first fish guy crawls out under the building. Standing there, it's much clearer.
EDIT 3:
"Dear Kos. A Call to the blood[less] wherever it may be
Source of all greatness, [something] can be. [something about the sea as well]
A curse is upon [the fetus? something that starts with an 'f' sound]. Every baby.
Mother is Dead. Her baby is [curse?] upon the sea]"
There's a deeper voice that's hard to hear, but it sounds like she says "the bearer of peace is bloodless". Not sure on the last word.
I will add more as I make out the words. This might help provide some perspective. It almost sounds like a villager praying to Kos, or praying for the curse on the people who caused this calamity.
So far I can make out it says Bergenwerth, and it says something about the mother, and something about the baby, and something about the curse is upon us....
I can also make out words 'a call to...' and 'blood'.
Do you think this is worth searching for? I wonder if there are other voice tracks hidden within the Hamlet. You can hear the voice best by positioning yourself against the building in a corner where it is loudest, and swirl the camera around so that it is physically close to the building.
EDIT: Now that I listen further, it sounds like it is rhyming. I can almost make it out.
EDIT 2: I can hear it more clearly where the first fish guy crawls out under the building. Standing there, it's much clearer.
EDIT 3:
"Dear Kos. A Call to the blood[less] wherever it may be
Source of all greatness, [something] can be. [something about the sea as well]
A curse is upon [the fetus? something that starts with an 'f' sound]. Every baby.
Mother is Dead. Her baby is [curse?] upon the sea]"
There's a deeper voice that's hard to hear, but it sounds like she says "the bearer of peace is bloodless". Not sure on the last word.
I will add more as I make out the words. This might help provide some perspective. It almost sounds like a villager praying to Kos, or praying for the curse on the people who caused this calamity.
Robot Pants
Member
EDIT 4: GRANT US EYES. GRANT US EYES.
piccio_ssl
Member
Wow great catch Milk
There is a little bit of the dialogue at the beginning of the old hunters trailer iirc
There is a little bit of the dialogue at the beginning of the old hunters trailer iirc
Yeah, those voices are definitely in that audio clip. Also, I remember there was a voice clip when you first get picked up by the Amygdala arm to go to the Hunter's Nightmare. I'm gonna listen to that again to see if it's there as well. It might be that those clips in the hamlet are just those voices recycled. But there are other things buried within it.
GwyndolinCinder
Member
And the winter lanterns look like the doll aka Maria ....
DoubleTake
Member
Some of those lines are recycled things that the villager says at the beginning but Im sure theres more to it. Amazing how the game cryptically tells you to listen for their chants and if you do you are rewarded. Masterclass game design. Great catch btw, I wonder if these voices can be heard all through the Hamlet.
Yeah it's been shown in video that they are wearing a very similar outfit to the doll.
I have found so far that it's only in the beginning area near the lamp, and they fade away as soon as you get to the well and beyond.
DoubleTake
Member
Ah disappointing. Either way its good insight.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
Considering he's at the entrance to the hamlet, its like his punishment to forever curse the healing church/bergynworth to all passerbys forever.
DoubleTake
Member
At first I thought it was just a gameplay device so the player wont miss a spell he drops but then I realized its possible to kill Adeline and completely miss that item anyway, so im not sure. Someone brought up a good observation of how the things that shoot the purple skulls at you all look like the villager and seem to be specters since they disappear after 1 hit.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
I am satisfied with this write up.
Why do you think that's supposed to be Willem? Shouldn't he at least be wearing his trademark hat?
The corpse doesn't really resemble the Orphan. It's just a withered human, while the Orphan has many weird growths all over (fins, wings and the scythe on a string) and exaggerated features (massive neck).
Fancy Clown
Member
The middle figure is wearing Willem's hat. And why would they make a statue of Willem and two other church people doing some sort of ritual over a withered human? It doesn't make sense. And the Orphan statue doesn't have growths and a scythe on it because again, it's missing all its limbs.
The middle figure is wearing a tall Choir hat that folds out at the top. Willem's hat has a mask with bulbous eyes which goes around his face and a different overall shape.
The corpse is missing its legs, I don't see why they'd cut off its distinguishing features to make it appear like a regular human if it's supposed to be a sculpture representing a specific, important event.
Fancy Clown
Member
I'll have to look at it closer in game, but I think it's close enough that it's meant to represent those individuals even if it's one to one. Who else do we know that wears those super tall hats? Who's important enough to have a statue of them and be in the middle? And why else would there be a withered, child like corpse on the table that they are doing a ritual on? The fish guy in the hamlet even refers to the orphan as the wizened child, which is what that statue seems to depict.
Also the guy in the middle can't be some random choir guy because the research hall is set before the choir exists. And why would they make a holy statue of a random church member that happens to wear almost the exact same clothing Willem does doing a ritual over a random withered corpse, that is also a secret platform that leads to the research hall where they performed expirments from things learned from the Orphan, and even leads to the Orphan himself.
It also had a prominent place in the trailer for the DLC so I think it's quite a significant statue.
Jugendstil
Member
For anyone interested, YouTube user Brvtus is doing a really nice lore-based Let's Play of the DLC.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2dx7TLsA_W99eLMgFepLgg
Aside from straight up discussion of lore, he goes into a lot of detail about where some of the game's designers historical and anthropological influences might come from, it's really insightful and fascinating. He's pretty new to doing these kind of videos so there are some (minor) technical issues with stuff like audio quality, but he's really intelligent and I'm excited to see his videos continue.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2dx7TLsA_W99eLMgFepLgg
Aside from straight up discussion of lore, he goes into a lot of detail about where some of the game's designers historical and anthropological influences might come from, it's really insightful and fascinating. He's pretty new to doing these kind of videos so there are some (minor) technical issues with stuff like audio quality, but he's really intelligent and I'm excited to see his videos continue.
DoubleTake
Member
I called it a long time ago that its meant to be an effigy of Laurence and his knowledge of the blood, Micolash and his rituals with bells, and Willem in the middle.
Actually the statue hold even more symbolism. The beast underneath the table could mean the coming scourge of beasts? But its curious why there would be a statue like this in the area where they obviously performed blood healing on people.
Fancy Clown
Member
Nice, I'll check this out later.
I didn't even think about if the other two figures could be important people. Well, Laurance's human skull resides under this statue, so it could symoblize where he lost his humanity.
As for why the statue would be there. Well, it's all about the Orphan and eyes on the inside, which is what the research hall is for--studying eyes on the inside based on what they learned from the orphan. And the statue is an elevator to that location.
DoubleTake
Member
Actually your right. I forgot about the surgery altar beneath it. It wouldnt surprise me if what the patients usually saw was the surgery altar, but whenever they took someone up to the research hall theyde bring down the statue of the child.
Fancy Clown
Member
Yup, that definitely makes sense to me. Each altar ties in to the function of the floor of the church it leads to.
FlowersisBritish
fleurs n'est pas britannique
I really like your breakdown, but I think the statues might be something different. I think it's supposed to be a statue representing the two pillars of the Healing Church. In the center is Laurence(or maybe just byrgenwerth?) over seeing/teaching/instructing the two main schools of the Healing Church; The Choir and Micolash's crazies. It also kind of ties into the duality of the two colors of church garb(like the two hunters who you fight before it.)
Fancy Clown
Member
One of those hunters you fight ain't a hunter. It's Vicar Amelia. You send her to the nightmare after you kill her. That's why she's in there saying her prayer as you walk in.
FlowersisBritish
fleurs n'est pas britannique
Eh, she might have used to been a hunter. Worked her way up(though maybe not likely since she's kind of terrible in melee) Anyway kind of helps my point. You see her in the main hall, the leader and symbol of the Healing Church, and then you get punked by a hunter waiting out of sight(symbol of Micolash who was working in secret.) Just trying to build upon theories here
FF Seraphim
Member
It is my understanding that Willem never wanted to dabble in the blood to begin with. He as a "scientist" experimented on it but once he found out what it was he didn't want to mess with it. It was Laurence who beckoned the Moon Presence even after Willem told him to fear the old blood. The Rune Workshop Tool doesn't deal with blood in any way:
"Runesmith Caryll, student of Byrgenwerth, transcribed the inhuman utterings of the Great Ones
into what are now called Caryll Runes.
The hunter Who retrieves this workshop tool can etch Caryll Runes into the mind to attain their wondrous
strength.
Provost Willem would have been proud of Caryll's runes, as they do not rely upon blood in any measure."
Willem wanted the power but knew the quick and easy way (Using their Blood) was a mistake.
Orochinagis
Member
Brywengerth was kinda neutral (just stealing eye) just using the blood for experiments, the healing church and the choir were nuts in comparison.
Woot? You mean the low rank nun and the high rank nun battle?
Fancy Clown
Member
I think that's a bit of a stretch since the hunter that attacks you is a healing church hunter. School of Mensis kind of becomes it's own thing, and they wear byrgenwerth uniforms and their hunters have their own attire (you find one in a cell the floor below). It's more likely that he's guarding the Vicar on the blood treatment floor of the cathedral. I get what you mean though, it's a cool notion, but I don't think the evidence is quite there.
There's a healing church hunter with Ludwig's sword, and then there's the woman in white who recites the same prayer as Amelia in the same position and I believe has the same voice. And you have to kill her to access the nightmare so she could be sent there just as Laurence, the first Vicar, was.