Support NeoGAF

[Jombie]

So the consensus is is that it was Kos that initiated the research and beckoning of the Great Ones? I had originally thought Ebrietas was the catalyst for the narrative, but she's simply one who has ascended, right?

 

[Persona7]

Is there anything about this enemy in the lore?

Executioner
"There aren't many beings as imposing as the Executioner, patrolling Yarnham in search of new trophies."

 

[Fancy Clown]

So the consensus is is that it was Kos that initiated the research and beckoning of the Great Ones? I had originally thought Ebrietas was the catalyst for the narrative, but she's simply a one who has ascended, right?

They were researching them ever since they found the chalice dungeons, but yes Kos and the Orphan are the first Great Ones they encounter in the flesh and likely precipitated the founding of the healing church. The church itself beckons Ebrietas later, presumably after they perfect the living failures into Celestial Emissarys. Ebrietas may be a human who was ascended (since she counts as kin) but if she was it happened long ago when the great ones abandoned pthumeru.

 

[Orochinagis]

There's a healing church hunter with Ludwig's sword, and then there's the woman in white who recites the same prayer as Amelia in the same position and I believe has the same voice. And you have to kill her to access the nightmare so she could be sent there just as Laurence, the first Vicar, was.

It could be another Nun just reciting her healing speech, Didnt Amelia have Horns?.

Is there anything about this enemy in the lore?

I thought the executioners were working with Yahagurl but those guys are in key points around Yharman, and one is guarding Laurence. Maybe those guys are with the Healing Church?

 

[Akara]

Has anyone read this?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JL5acskAT_2t062HILImBkV8eXAwaqOj611mSjK-vZ8/preview

It's a great read and although I don't agree with some its a pretty damn good summary.

 

[Fancy Clown]

It could be another Nun just reciting her healing speech, Didnt Amelia have Horns?.

She has horns when she turns into a beast. In her human form she is dressed in a white robe with a hood, like the one in the nightmare. I guess it's possible it's not her, but I think it's too much of a coincidence with what they're both wearing, and what we see them doing. She recites the prayer the exact same way. I don't see Miyazaki adding this character that immediately calls to mind Amelia and seems to line up with her perfectly only to have it be some random character. Also don't healing church nuns wear black, like Adella?

If we could find if its the same voice actor as Amelia, or who the character is named as in the credits that might settle it.

I thought the executioners were working with Yahagurl but those guys are in key points around Yharman, and one is guarding Laurence. Maybe those guys are with the Healing Church?

Yeah I think they are just results of the churches blood experiments, like the guys with the staffs and lanterns, or the giant skeletons dudes with axes and wrecking balls. They might be in central Yharnam as an added layer of protection to prevent anything from getting to Iosefka's clinic and cathedral ward.

 

[Derpot]

Also don't healing church nuns wear black, like Adella?

There are two versions of the Church set, black and white. Black is more for the Church Hunters and white is for the members of the Healing Church working on medicine stuff, they are more like "doctors".

Yeah I think they are just results of the churches blood experiments, like the guys with the staffs and lanterns, or the giant skeletons dudes with axes and wrecking balls. They might be in central Yharnam as an added layer of protection to prevent anything from getting to Iosefka's clinic and cathedral ward.

Aren't the guys with the staffs and lanterns Pthumerians? They kinda look like Pthumerians, but I don't know...

 

[Fancy Clown]

There are two versions of the Church set, black and white. Black is more for the Church Hunters and white is for the members of the Healing Church working on medicine stuff, they are more like "doctors".


Aren't the guys with the staffs and lanterns Pthumerians? They kinda look like Pthumerians, but I don't know...

Totally forgot about the white healing church set, you're right. Hmm I still think there's a good chance she's Amelia, but that might put a bit of a damper on my theory. I don't remember if the maybe-Vicar was wearing the white church set specifically, or if it matches up with what Amelia is wearing in the waking world, since that also looks kinda like the white church set. Either way it makes sense she's praying at that altar specifically, since the white church set represents specialists in experimentally driven blood ministration.

I thought those guys were Pthumerians at first too, but I think I read that in the guide they are confirmed as church blood experiments.

 

[dan2026]

So after it was apparent that horrible super demon blood was turning people into monsters, why did noone say wait a minute maybe we should stop putting this shit inside us?

 

[Akara]

Totally forgot about the white healing church set, you're right. Hmm I still think there's a good chance she's Amelia, but that might put a bit of a damper on my theory. I don't remember if the maybe-Vicar was wearing the white church set specifically, or if it matches up with what Amelia is wearing in the waking world, since that also looks kinda like the white church set. Either way it makes sense she's praying at that altar specifically, since the white church set represents specialists in experimentally driven blood ministration.

I thought those guys were Pthumerians at first too, but I think I read that in the guide they are confirmed as church blood experiments.

Church Blood Experiements I think somewhat along those lines, definitely not Pthumerians, pthus use fire and blood and stuff.

 

[Zocano]

So after it was apparent that horrible super demon blood was turning people into monsters, why did noone say wait a minute maybe we should stop putting this shit inside us?

Wouldn't you want to be a god? Also functional immortality.

 

[Derpot]

Totally forgot about the white healing church set, you're right. Hmm I still think there's a good chance she's Amelia, but that might put a bit of a damper on my theory. I don't remember if the maybe-Vicar was wearing the white church set specifically, or if it matches up with what Amelia is wearing in the waking world, since that also looks kinda like the white church set. Either way it makes sense she's praying at that altar specifically, since the white church set represents specialists in experimentally driven blood ministration.

I thought those guys were Pthumerians at first too, but I think I read that in the guide they are confirmed as church blood experiments.

She was wearing the white church set, yup.
But if she's Amelia, does that mean that Amelia was cursed by Kos too? That would not be impossible since she was a vicar. She had the same title as Laurence who was also cursed since he is also in the Nightmare. Kos also cursed the children and heirs of the sinners.

 

[Fancy Clown]

She was wearing the white church set, yup.
But if she's Amelia, does that mean that Amelia was cursed by Kos too? That would not be impossible since she was a vicar. She had the same title as Laurence who was also cursed since he is also in the Nightmare. Kos also cursed the children and heirs of the sinners.

Yeah, that's my take on it. If Laurence is part of it than so can other Vicars. I think the curse is not so much exclusively hunters, but anyone that abuses blood and descended from the institution that fucked with Kos. Or in the patients of the research Hall's case, they probably have Kos/Orphan's brain fluid inside them.

 

[FF Seraphim]

There's a healing church hunter with Ludwig's sword, and then there's the woman in white who recites the same prayer as Amelia in the same position and I believe has the same voice. And you have to kill her to access the nightmare so she could be sent there just as Laurence, the first Vicar, was.

If it is Amelia then she must of been a Hunter for the Church as Laurence and Ludwig once was. It only makes sense that once she was killed that she would be sent to the Hunter's Nightmare...

 

[Orochinagis]

Totally forgot about the white healing church set, you're right. Hmm I still think there's a good chance she's Amelia, but that might put a bit of a damper on my theory. I don't remember if the maybe-Vicar was wearing the white church set specifically, or if it matches up with what Amelia is wearing in the waking world, since that also looks kinda like the white church set. Either way it makes sense she's praying at that altar specifically, since the white church set represents specialists in experimentally driven blood ministration.

I thought those guys were Pthumerians at first too, but I think I read that in the guide they are confirmed as church blood experiments.

Amelia have an unique armor set, unlike the nuns fight.

Edit:

Looks more like a priest set, quite unique.

Wouldn't you want to be a god? Also functional immortality.

Also more more propense to addiction than alcohol according to the items description.

Yeah, that's my take on it. If Laurence is part of it than so can other Vicars. I think the curse is not so much exclusively hunters, but anyone that abuses blood and descended from the institution that fucked with Kos. Or in the patients of the research Hall's case, they probably have Kos/Orphan's brain fluid inside them.

Everyone who got the blood treatment are destined to fell into bloodlust or suck other peop'le head or their head explote, pick your poison.

 

[Fancy Clown]

If it is Amelia then she must of been a Hunter for the Church as Laurence and Ludwig once was. It only makes sense that once she was killed that she would be sent to the Hunter's Nightmare...

Laurence was never a hunter though. But I think he played a big part in the sack on the village, so I don't think it matters too much.

Amelia have an unique armor set, unlike the nuns fight.

Edit:

Looks more like a priest set, quite unique.

.

Hmm it would be cool if it's Amelia, but maybe not. I wanna see if I can find the credits and look for a character name or voice actor.

ALTHOUGH the nightmare is set in the past, and you go further back as you progress, so that could still be Amelia before she's a vicar. She's just a very dedicated, devout, church member.

 

[Orochinagis]

Hmm it would be cool if it's Amelia, but maybe not. I wanna see if I can find the credits and look for a character name or voice actor.

ALTHOUGH the nightmare is set in the past, and you go further back as you progress, so that could still be Amelia before she's a vicar. She's just a very dedicated, devout, church member.

I hope not. I dont want her to be reduced to a dull NPC fight. let her be as she is.

Also I dont think you send people to the nightmare or the nightmare is set into the past. FROM is quite bad with the timelines as long is justifies their content

 

[FF Seraphim]

Laurence was never a hunter though. But I think he played a big part in the sack on the village, so I don't think it matters too much.

No Laurence was most definitely some sort of Hunter.

Old Bone:

"The bone of an old hunter whose name is lost.

It is said that he was an apprentice to old Gehrman, and a practitioner of the art of Quickening, a technique particular to the first hunters.

It is most appropriate that hunters, carriers of the torch who are sustained by the dream, would tease an old art from his remains. "

This is found in the Old Workshop where the Tomb Stone is in the Hunter's Dream. Now I may be wrong but I always thought the Tomb Stone represented Laurence and it being used for the Hunter's Nightmare sorta makes the connection for me.

 

[Orochinagis]

This is found in the Old Workshop where the Tomb Stone is in the Hunter's Dream. Now I may be wrong but I always thought the Tomb Stone represented Laurence and it being used for the Hunter's Nightmare sorta makes the connection for me.

The tomb could be Valtr's since he is the only hunters who lacks an eye and he lefts Yharman right after you complete the league quest

 

[FF Seraphim]

The tomb could be Valtr's since he is the only hunters who lacks an eye and he lefts Yharman right after you complete the league quest

But he is a Hunter from outside of Yharman, I do not think the game refers to him as one of Gehman's students either... Also I am not sure if he is even dead. He is the only one of his original party to survive.

 

[Derpot]

I think the apprentice is Lady Maria since she does the technique during the fight.
You can find the bone on the tomb in the real world where the Doll prays in the Hunter's Dream.
Also, the Doll's appearance is based on Lady Maria.
So maybe the tomb is actually Lady Maria's.

 

[Akara]

Amelia have an unique armor set, unlike the nuns fight.

Edit:

Looks more like a priest set, quite unique.

Also more more propense to addiction than alcohol according to the items description.



Everyone who got the blood treatment are destined to fell into bloodlust or suck other peop'le head or their head explote, pick your poison.

Oh god from can I get this set, please ;(

 

[Fancy Clown]

I hope not. I dont want her to be reduced to a dull NPC fight. let her be as she is.

Also I dont think you send people to the nightmare or the nightmare is set into the past. FROM is quite bad with the timelines as long is justifies their content

It would be an interesting look at the past though. And you don't send her there persobally, but because you kill her in the waking world she's trapped there. The hunter's Nightmare is definitely a representation of the past. It ends with the Orphan being born and all the villagers alive again, and the lumeflower garden is being tended by blob heads, not celestials.

No Laurence was most definitely some sort of Hunter.

Old Bone:


This is found in the Old Workshop where the Tomb Stone is in the Hunter's Dream. Now I may be wrong but I always thought the Tomb Stone represented Laurence and it being used for the Hunter's Nightmare sorta makes the connection for me.

Why would you think that it's Laurence's? It's most likely Maria's. Laurance was the first Vicar of the church, and a research assistant of Willem before that. I can't think of anything that points to him being a hunter.

 

[Orochinagis]

It would be an interesting look at the past though. And you don't send her there persobally, but because you kill her in the waking world she's trapped there. The hunter's Nightmare is definitely a representation of the past. It ends with the Orphan being born and all the villagers alive again, and the lumeflower garden is being tended by blob heads, not celestials.

Maybe the time runs different in nightmare, who knows

 

["God's Beard!"]

Does anybody else think that Ebrietas is or is related to the Orphan? Ebrietas is the Daughter of the Cosmos and Micolash rambles about "Kos or Kosm"(which means Cosmos literally).

It would make sense that Ebrietas began to favor the humans if it was raised around them after the scholars pulled her from the womb. It's odd that the Orphan would take the form of a hunter unless it was somehow symbolic of their sin. If the Hunter's Nightmare is a representation of the past then of course it's not the actual Orphan. The Healing Church is known to use symbolism, such as worshipping Laurence's human skull as a representation of the humanity he gave up. Therefore, the statue in the church in the nightmare is also potentially not a literal representation of the Orphan as a human-like figure.

So basically the scholars stole the fetus from the corpse of Kos and raised it in the Healing Church as a source of knowledge?

 

[Laughing Banana]

They were researching them ever since they found the chalice dungeons, but yes Kos and the Orphan are the first Great Ones they encounter in the flesh and likely precipitated the founding of the healing church. The church itself beckons Ebrietas later, presumably after they perfect the living failures into Celestial Emissarys. Ebrietas may be a human who was ascended (since she counts as kin) but if she was it happened long ago when the great ones abandoned pthumeru.

The game flat out said through Alfred that the discovery of the Holy Medium by a group of Byrgenwerth scholars within the Chalice Dungeons was the event that led to the founding of the Healing Church.

And besides, as I said before, Yharnam Hunters was founded as a direct response by the Healing Church to respond to the dangers of the beast scourge, yes? And it's pretty obvious that by the time Kos was discovered the Hunter organization has been established since Gherman--the first Hunter--and Maria--his disciple--was already there--and Ludwig too, a person who the game directly referenced as the First Hunter of the Healing Church.

Hmmm....

 

[BokehKing]

So I was wandering around Barnes and Noble last night and started to wonder

Is there any books out there you could recommend that comes close to the setting and theme of bloodborne? Stories of hunters and the beasts they stalk?

 

[Fancy Clown]

The game flat out said through Alfred that the discovery of the Holy Medium by a group of Byrgenwerth scholars within the Chalice Dungeons was the event that led to the founding of the Healing Church.

And besides, as I said before, Yharnam Hunters was founded as a direct response by the Healing Church to respond to the dangers of the beast scourge, yes? And it's pretty obvious that by the time Kos was discovered the Hunter organization has been established since Gherman--the first Hunter--and Maria--his disciple--was already there--and Ludwig too, a person who the game directly referenced as the First Hunter of the Healing Church.

Hmmm....

Why are all the references about the sin directed at Byrgenwerth then and not the Healing Church? Like the guy in the Hamlet cursing Byrgenwerth. And the statue of Willem, if it is him, in the research hall indicates his leadership paved the way for what the research hall would one day accomplish. And Ludwig couldn't have been there, because by the time Ludwig was a hunter, Gherman's workshop had been shut down. Not everyone in the Nightmare was there at the Hamlet, like all the old hunters in the first area. That's because the curse affects all hunters. Ludwig doesn't even sound like he knows the dark truth behind the healing church, so he certainly wouldn't know about the Hamlet. It is confusing that there are Hunters already though. But I have a couple theories about why they might already be around before the schism (which I imagine probably happened shortly after the Hamlet incident). 1) They already sent tomb prospectors into chalice dungeons so they know how dangerous they are, so they may have used Gherman for that. 2) they started the Hunters specifically for the Hamlet, because they needed people powerful enough to sundue all the villagers, and a Great One. Or 3) maybe Laurence already started experimenting with Old Blood, so they had a few minor beast incidents, so Laurence created Hunters to contain his experiments. Willem's adage about "fear the old blood" might have been precipitated by actually seeing why they should fear it in the first place. But those theories are kinda sketchy, but I'm just not convinced the Healing Church has been up and running and certainly don't think they had Ebrietas yet, especially since everything in the Hamlet is referenced as the Original sin. There's not even an altar of despair in the grand cathedral of the past in the nightmare.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

So I was wandering around Barnes and Noble last night and started to wonder

Is there any books out there you could recommend that comes close to the setting and theme of bloodborne?

Stories of hunters and the beasts they stalk?

Hmm, that, I couldn't say. Everything else about Bloodborne, though, is pure Lovecraft.

 

[Orochinagis]

Why are all the references about the sin directed at Byrgenwerth then and not the Healing Church? Like the guy in the Hamlet cursing Byrgenwerth. And the statue of Willem, if it is him, in the research hall indicates his leadership paved the way for what the research hall would one day accomplish. And Ludwig couldn't have been there, because by the time Ludwig was a hunter, Gherman's workshop had been shut down. Not everyone in the Nightmare was there at the Hamlet, like all the old hunters in the first area. That's because the curse affects all hunters. Ludwig doesn't even sound like he knows the dark truth behind the healing church, so he certainly wouldn't know about the Hamlet. It is confusing that there are Hunters already though. But I have a couple theories about why they might already be around before the schism (which I imagine probably happened shortly after the Hamlet incident). 1) They already sent tomb prospectors into chalice dungeons so they know how dangerous they are, so they may have used Gherman for that. 2) they started the Hunters specifically for the Hamlet, because they needed people powerful enough to sundue all the villagers, and a Great One. Or 3) maybe Laurence already started experimenting with Old Blood, so they had a few minor beast incidents, so Laurence created Hunters to contain his experiments. Willem's adage about "fear the old blood" might have been precipitated by actually seeing why they should fear it in the first place. But those theories are kinda sketchy, but I'm just not convinced the Healing Church has been up and running and certainly don't think they had Ebrietas yet, especially since everything in the Hamlet is referenced as the Original sin. There's not even an altar of despair in the grand cathedral of the past in the nightmare.

The curse affects everyone who uses the blood, not only the hunters, as Valtr said there are little vermins (the centipete one) living inside the people. Maybe those little vermines are curse since Kos had another kind of parasites (probaby a the great one) and she probably infected the humans in the process like the wasp incubating their eggs into another lifeform to be safe and later eat the host. Like the zombie werewolves.

Ludwing was a tomraider (roll credits) before the healing church then became a hunter as looking as his gear so there was a huge margin of time between Willem studies with Ebrietas. The healing church finding Kos and another lap of time when mensis started their studies and the choir fell to ebrietas influence. The DLC covered the gap after Ludwing finished serving the healing church and possibly used him into experiments and later disposed with the rest of the Old Hunters.

Is this the statue you are reffering to?

Looks like a slightly variation of him, with different ornament on the gear. The parasite already created some fungus on him to expose the spores......wait.... The last of Us spin off

 

[Fancy Clown]

If the curse affected everyone who used the blood though, everyone in Yharnam would end up in the nightmare, which is clearly not the case. One of the item descriptions says that one day the old hunters just up and vanished without a trace.

Yeah, that's the statue I'm talking about.

 

[Orochinagis]

If the curse affected everyone who used the blood though, everyone in Yharnam would end up in the nightmare, which is clearly not the case. One of the item descriptions says that one day the old hunters just up and vanished without a trace.

Yeah, that's the statue I'm talking about.

Maybe because the villagers didnt bathe in blood like the hunters but there are some human faces plasted on the enviroment maybe that explains it.

 

[NeoGiff]

This is probably old news by now, but I was watching Matthewmatosis' Dark Souls playthrough, and had a sudden mindblowing experience once he reached Oolacile and Marvellous Chester. Is Chester from Yharnam, or at least around the time period/world in which Bloodborne takes place? From his clothes, advanced weapon, attitude, dialogue, and allusions to being from somewhere else, it all seems to make sense.

Again, this is probably old news, but it was amazing as the pieces fell together. Miyazaki!!!

 

[DoubleTake]

Something just occurred to me. The messengers bear a striking resemblance to The Orphan of Kos

We see this statue in the DLC with what looks like Willem, Laurence and Micolash performing rituals over the body of a messenger/child. Notice how the body is missing the lower half, just like the messengers who we never see with a lower half...

What is the significance of the messengers being in a bath? Could this be a symbol for Orphan of Kos being of the sea?

(Yes, I Stole your photo Orochinagis)

Also assuming that the statue is meant to allude to the messengers and the scourge of the beast, how does this tie in with the opening of the game where we see a beast reaching for us until the messengers rescue us?

My interpretation is that the church was experimenting on children in an attempt to create their own "wizened child". I believe Willem semi achieved creating a wizened/ascended child with Rom, however he did so with a method other than blood. After leaving Byrgenwerth, Laurence founds the church and they too try to create a wizened/ascended child but this time they do it through the use of blood. The result is the messengers and the scourge of the beast, which is what I believe the statue alludes to.

I believe the statue is meant to call to mind the Laurence, Willem, and Micolash's attempts at creating an ascended child but I no longer believe its meant to be them within the game's world.

Any thoughts?

 

[Stratosphere]

Did anybody else notice that there appears to be an entire flooded city below Fishing Hamlet?

I figured that we would learn something about this in the DLC, but I don't think there was any reference.

 

[DoubleTake]

Did anybody else notice that there appears to be an entire flooded city below Fishing Hamlet?



I figured that we would learn something about this in the DLC, but I don't think there was any reference.

Yea the city is Yharnam/Hunter's Nightmare. In the place where you find the Pizza Cutter en enemy from later on in the hamlet drops from the sky.

 

[Stratosphere]

Yea the city is Yharnam/Hunter's Nightmare. In the place where you find the Pizza Cutter en enemy from later on in the hamlet drops from the sky.

Well shit, not sure why I didn't think of that lol. I guess I forgot that the entire DLC exists in a nightmare, and so things are not going to make logical sense. We essentially ascend from Yharnam, up through the astral clocktower, to the Fishing Hamlet at the edge of the sea...

 

[DoubleTake]

Well shit, not sure why I didn't think of that lol. I guess I forgot that the entire DLC exists in a nightmare, and so things are not going to make logical sense. We essentially ascend from Yharnam, up through the astral clocktower, to the Fishing Hamlet at the edge of the sea...

Exactly. It symbolizes where everything began and the curse that looms over Yharnam and its Hunters.

 

[Orochinagis]

BEWARE bad english incoming.

Something just occurred to me. The messengers bear a striking resemblance to The Orphan of Kos

We see this statue in the DLC with what looks like Willem, Laurence and Micolash performing rituals over the body of a messenger/child. Notice how the body is missing the lower half, just like the messengers who we never see with a lower half...

What is the significance of the messengers being in a bath? Could this be a symbol for Orphan of Kos being of the sea?

(Yes, I Stole your photo Orochinagis)

Also assuming that the statue is meant to allude to the messengers and the scourge of the beast, how does this tie in with the opening of the game where we see a beast reaching for us until the messengers rescue us?

My interpretation is that the church was experimenting on children in an attempt to create their own "wizened child". I believe Willem semi achieved creating a wizened/ascended child with Rom, however he did so with a method other than blood. After leaving Byrgenwerth, Laurence founds the church and they too try to create a wizened/ascended child but this time they do it through the use of blood. The result is the messengers and the scourge of the beast, which is what I believe the statue alludes to.

I believe the statue is meant to call to mind the Laurence, Willem, and Micolash's attempts at creating an ascended child but I no longer believe its meant to be them within the game's world.

Any thoughts?

Looks like the Church meet them a quite while ago, alonside the phumerians in their time reverencing them. The messenger are older than the church since you can find them in the chalices.


There are some statues on the unseen village and in some parts of Yharman, always holding a candle. Looking at their neutral nature looks like Laurence used them as beacons to establish the Lamps network, in the white ribbon description says.

"White ribbon that messengers are oddly fond of.

A ribbon made of fine lace that shines remarkably,

more suited to pretty young girls than silly old messengers."

Tells you the messengers are old and not some sort of kids, you can see them holding blue/green lantern on the Nightmare Frontier giving you clues where to go if you get lost.

The bath messengers are quite interesting, The shop messengers grow "hungry" the more you progress the game, growing in numbers and the rising the prices, always connected to the great ones world via water.

The Insight messenger are curious, the dont seem interesting about your journey and only appears if you have a significant amount of insight, selling you items of old times like chalices materials and specific boss gear

Gehrman probably make those Baths to give them a place to stay and dont wander around the Dream floor like their other counterparts in Yharman.


About the photo if you look closely the lamps always have some sort of bells which the Church used it as some sort of antennas to communicate between lamps, probably Laurence's doing. Like the hunter pistol says it break the frecuency the bells.

Probably the Church have lots of experiments trying to understand the great ones "ocean" creating the Nightmare in the process using portion of the Great one world or creating their own phase/realm using the great ones influence as batteries while a human would act as a host altering his brain funtions in the process.

You can see the middle statue giving a brain surgery to the patient, probably after experimenting with the fishmen eyes according to the Accursed Brew.

"Skull of a local from the violated fishing village. The inside of the skull was forcibly searched for eyes, as evidenced by innumerable scratches and indentations.

No wonder the skull became stewed in curses.

They who offer baneful chants.
Weep with them, as one in trance"

The bell statue is giving a specific frecuency to the patient, using the bells sound as catalyst to react or be called. that would explain the maidens function to call other villagers from other worlds or zones to a specific task maybe their appereance is consecuence of the experiments on hers too aside of looking old.

The book statue is lecturing or chanting something, I have no idea what it is outside Amelia's healing church speech or something like "beware the pale blood". You can see Adeline strange behaviour like the Church brainwashed her, Maria tried to save her in vain
.

 

[Fancy Clown]

Good stuff on the messengers. They are also on the bottom of the squid creatures in Nightmare Frontier, inexplicably.

 

[Orochinagis]

Good stuff on the messengers. They are also on the bottom of the squid creatures in Nightmare Frontier, inexplicably.

Those ones light their candles after you die several times leading you to the second floor if you follow their candles. I want to belive Kos is one of those native Kin squids but was impregnated with great ones parasites.

 

[Elios83]

Has this DLC shed light on some of the obscure aspects of the story?
Have people found out more about the Moon Presence?
The goal of the hunt was to kill Mergo since the beginning and why? Great Ones can be against each other?
And if previous attempts with other hunters failed what determines the end of a hunt night and the beginning of a new cycle with a new red moon?
Was Rom's veil keeping Mergo's nightmare locked otherwise it would have absorbed the whole Yharnam and who gave Rom such power?
Is it confirmed that Gehrman had a wife who gave birth to a great one child like Arianna and with the umbilical cord he summoned the Moon Presence just to be trapped and used as the host of the hunter's dream with the purpose of guiding other hunters towards his goals?

 

[MilkBeard]

Has this DLC shed light on some of the obscure aspects of the story?
Have people found out more about the Moon Presence?
The goal of the hunt was to kill Mergo since the beginning and why? Great Ones can be against each other?
And if previous attempts with other hunters failed what determines the end of a hunt night and the beginning of a new cycle with a new red moon?
Was Rom's veil keeping Mergo's nightmare locked otherwise it would have absorbed the whole Yharnam and who gave Rom such power?
Is it confirmed that Gehrman had a wife who gave birth to a great one child like Arianna and with the umbilical cord he summoned the Moon Presence just to be trapped and used as the host of the hunter's dream with the purpose of guiding other hunters towards his goals?

Im not sure about some of these things, but in the 108 page essay, the writer theorizes that Rom was indeed not a Great One naturally, but rather ascended to a higher status because of Willem. He theorizes that based on Roms form, its name, and Micolash 's dialogue. That Rom was perhaps an infant that maybe consumed the 1/3 umbillical chord. I will have to read that part again. But it makes sense. We know Rom is a female, and that Miyazaki feels it is his favorite design.

 

[Fancy Clown]

Has this DLC shed light on some of the obscure aspects of the story?
Have people found out more about the Moon Presence?
The goal of the hunt was to kill Mergo since the beginning and why? Great Ones can be against each other?
And if previous attempts with other hunters failed what determines the end of a hunt night and the beginning of a new cycle with a new red moon?
Was Rom's veil keeping Mergo's nightmare locked otherwise it would have absorbed the whole Yharnam and who gave Rom such power?
Is it confirmed that Gehrman had a wife who gave birth to a great one child like Arianna and with the umbilical cord he summoned the Moon Presence just to be trapped and used as the host of the hunter's dream with the purpose of guiding other hunters towards his goals?

Nothing new on MP, Mergo, or blood moon cycle as far as I have found. For your last question, the DLC does shed more light on Gherman and a special lady in his life.

 

[Elios83]

Nothing new on MP, Mergo, or blood moon cycle as far as I have found. For your last question, the DLC does shed more light on Gherman and a special lady in his life.

Thank you, this is a a bit disappointing to hear, we'll never know the plot holes about this game unless the story document is published

Im not sure about some of these things, but in the 108 page essay, the writer theorizes that Rom was indeed not a Great One naturally, but rather ascended to a higher status because of Willem. He theorizes that based on Roms form, its name, and Micolash 's dialogue. That Rom was perhaps an infant that maybe consumed the 1/3 umbillical chord. I will have to read that part again. But it makes sense. We know Rom is a female, and that Miyazaki feels it is his favorite design.

Yes Rom was not a Great One. It ascended to the status. Micolash said the Kos(m) gifted him with the eyes. Everyone wanted to ascend to the power of the great ones but they all followed different paths.
What is not clear is the role of Rom in the big scheme of things since different events (the Queen's ghost appearence and the fall of the red moon) are triggered by his death.
It seems like Rom was used as a tool by Willem to protect Yahrnam from the damages that others did (including Laurence and Micolash).

My biggest doubts are about the Moon Presence, the purpose of the hunt night itself and its cyclical aspect.
Btw I don't agree with the author of that pdf on a few points, he assumes that Mergo is dead just because the Queen has blood on her womb, he says that Gehrman is the Child of the MP and to me that's totally not possible, he's also not considering at all the possible origin of the umbilical cord that Gerhman had in his workshop.

 

[Orochinagis]

Has this DLC shed light on some of the obscure aspects of the story?
Have people found out more about the Moon Presence?
The goal of the hunt was to kill Mergo since the beginning and why? Great Ones can be against each other?
And if previous attempts with other hunters failed what determines the end of a hunt night and the beginning of a new cycle with a new red moon?
Was Rom's veil keeping Mergo's nightmare locked otherwise it would have absorbed the whole Yharnam and who gave Rom such power?
Is it confirmed that Gehrman had a wife who gave birth to a great one child like Arianna and with the umbilical cord he summoned the Moon Presence just to be trapped and used as the host of the hunter's dream with the purpose of guiding other hunters towards his goals?

1.-Nope big ones but

Doll's model is based on Maria, a Gehrman student.
The League is a group based on hunters of the old days
Alfred is a Old Hunter (quite obvious)
The Old Hunters possibly hunted Kos throught the Nightmare and capture it for the Church
Kos could be the starting point for the Church to create the Nightmare and the Dream,
Ludwig was a Church test subject and discarded afterwards after his job founding the chalices and probably ebrietas


2.-Nope

3.-The game first goal was to slay everything in your way as much as possible since you are a hunter and hunters job is to hunt beasts and obey the church commands, then after you defeat Rom, it turned into stop Micholash ritual about bringing a Great one in Yharman. Looks like the great ones have some sort of status or ranks if you follow it you can see Amygdalas are like the explorers of the great ones or just a ant like creatures who entered Yharman alonside the slugs, the vermins, the great ones and parasites


4.- Hunters every hunt night job was just stop the beasts outbreak making time to the Church to do their things, so no. The current Hunt Night in BB didnt break the circle anyway.
5.-Yes, The Healing Church and probably Byrgenwerth made Rom to hide or explore the veil who kept Yharman out of Great Ones influence, It was not, the Amygdalas were already in Yharman but people didnt have "insight" to see them until Rom falls and the vein with her.
Fun Fact, Rom besides being a Human ascended into a Kin status

6.- Nope

 

[DoubleTake]

Thank you, this is a a bit disappointing to hear, we'll never know the plot holes about this game unless the story document is published



Yes Rom was not a Great One. It ascended to the status. Micolash said the Kos(m) gifted him with the eyes. Everyone wanted to ascend to the power of the great ones but they all followed different paths.
What is not clear is the role of Rom in the big scheme of things since different events (the Queen's ghost appearence and the fall of the red moon) are triggered by his death.
It seems like Rom was used as a tool by Willem to protect Yahrnam from the damages that others did (including Laurence and Micolash).

My biggest doubts are about the Moon Presence, the purpose of the hunt night itself and its cyclical aspect.
Btw I don't agree with the author of that pdf on a few points, he assumes that Mergo is dead just because the Queen has blood on her womb, he says that Gehrman is the Child of the MP and to me that's totally not possible, he's also not considering at all the possible origin of the umbilical cord that Gerhman had in his workshop.

As far as we can tell Mergo is "dead" and exists only in voice when pulled into a nightmare. When we kill Queen Yharnam in the tombs she drops the Yharnam Stone which has a fetus inside of it. This can only be assumed to be Mergo, who is long dead but exists on another plane(not necessarily a Nightmare or Dream).

The description of Bloodstone Shards reads "After death, a substance in the blood hardens, and that which does not crystallize is called a blood stone." We also know that Yharnam was carrying a Child of Blood(Oeden's Child). The Yharnam Stone is evidence of Mergo having died on the physical plane, from stillbirth. Even more evidence resides in the description of the cord you get for defeating Wet Nurse. "This Cord granted Mensis audience with Mergo, but resulted in the stillbirth of their brains."

Its assumed that Mergo was having no influence over the waking world until Micolash beckoned him and his cries drew the Moon Presence closer. Perhaps Mergo was at peace on another plane with wherever the perpetually stirring consciousness of his mother was until he was pulled from that place and dropped into a Nightmare by Mensis. We know Great Ones are sympathetic in spirit, and often answer when called upon, Mergo would be no different I assume although his situation seems a bit more forced onto him. Nowhere does the game tell us to kill Mergo. Only to silence its harrowing cries, cries that distressed or bothered the Moon Presence. This line of thinking shows that Old Ones aren't necessarily against one another, but their existence affects other Old Ones as well.

-Mergo's cries catching the attention of/bothering the Moon Presence.
-Moon Presence drawing closer affecting the blood inside of Yharnamites, causing the beast plague to become even worse.
-Rom being Vacuous holding back the effects of Mensis' Rituals/Beckoning of the Nightmare Newborn(Mergo, formerly the Queen &Oeden's Child of Blood)

I also dont see how Gehrman could be the child of the MP. Did he mean as a surrogate or actual blood child? I havent read the Paleblood Hunt in a while so I dont remember if this was part of his older version or if he added it in the newest edit.

What is your theory for the origin of the umbilical cord thats found in the workshop? I dont believe it could be from a human child seeing how its clearly of otherworldly design. I believe the 3 cords are part of the same one that Byrgenwerth took from Kos' carcass after experimenting on it and killing her child.

 

[Elios83]

1.-Nope big ones but

Doll's model is based on Maria, a Gehrman student.
The League is a group based on hunters of the old days
Alfred is a Old Hunter (quite obvious)
The Old Hunters possibly hunted Kos throught the Nightmare and capture it for the Church
Kos could be the starting point for the Church to create the Nightmare and the Dream,
Ludwig was a Church test subject and discarded afterwards after his job founding the chalices and probably ebrietas


2.-Nope

3.-The game first goal was to slay everything in your way as much as possible since you are a hunter and hunters job is to hunt beasts and obey the church commands, then after you defeat Rom, it turned into stop Micholash ritual about bringing a Great one in Yharman. Looks like the great ones have some sort of status or ranks if you follow it you can see Amygdalas are like the explorers of the great ones or just a ant like creatures who entered Yharman alonside the slugs, the vermins, the great ones and parasites


4.- Hunters every hunt night job was just stop the beasts outbreak making time to the Church to do their things, so no. The current Hunt Night in BB didnt break the circle anyway.
5.-Yes, The Healing Church and probably Byrgenwerth made Rom to hide or explore the veil who kept Yharman out of Great Ones influence, It was not, the Amygdalas were already in Yharman but people didnt have "insight" to see them until Rom falls and the vein with her.
Fun Fact, Rom besides being a Human ascended into a Kin status

6.- Nope

To me the biggest problem is still the role of the Moon Presence which seems to be the actual mastermind behind the hunting.
The Church originally created the hunting as you say just to get rid of beasts during the red moon nights but the whole Hunter's Dream dimension doesn't seem something that Church wanted (just like the didn't want people to go mad or transform in mosters), Gehrman was trapped inside it by the Moon Presence.
So the biggest question is the goal of the MP.
Having a child like all the other Great Ones want to? But how? I don't think that Great Ones can have a child by obsorbing blood echoes from the hunters.
Also the MP clearly doesn't want hunters to find umbilical cords infact with three of them the player is considered an enemy/rival.
Also I don't get if there's a specific event that puts an end to the red moon and a specific one that triggers it. We can say that it's the MP that brings the red moon cyclically though.

And an other doubt I have is why if you use the lanterns in Yharnam it asks you if you want to awake as if you were dreaming while exploring Yharnam? Is that because you're actually trapped in the Hunter's Dream but allowed to travel to accomplish your mission?

As far as we can tell Mergo is "dead" and exists only in voice when pulled into a nightmare. When we kill Queen Yharnam in the tombs she drops the Yharnam Stone which has a fetus inside of it. This can only be assumed to be Mergo, who is long dead but exists on another plane(not necessarily a Nightmare or Dream).

The description of Bloodstone Shards reads "After death, a substance in the blood hardens, and that which does not crystallize is called a blood stone." We also know that Yharnam was carrying a Child of Blood(Oeden's Child). The Yharnam Stone is evidence of Mergo having died on the physical plane, from stillbirth. Even more evidence resides in the description of the cord you get for defeating Wet Nurse. "This Cord granted Mensis audience with Mergo, but resulted in the stillbirth of their brains."

Its assumed that Mergo was having no influence over the waking world until Micolash beckoned him and his cries drew the Moon Presence closer. Perhaps Mergo was at peace on another plane with wherever the perpetually stirring consciousness of his mother was until he was pulled from that place and dropped into a Nightmare by Mensis. We know Great Ones are sympathetic in spirit, and often answer when called upon, Mergo would be no different I assume although his situation seems a bit more forced onto him. Nowhere does the game tell us to kill Mergo. Only to silence its harrowing cries, cries that distressed or bothered the Moon Presence. This line of thinking shows that Old Ones aren't necessarily against one another, but their existence affects other Old Ones as well.

-Mergo's cries catching the attention of/bothering the Moon Presence.
-Moon Presence drawing closer affecting the blood inside of Yharnamites, causing the beast plague to become even worse.
-Rom being Vacuous holding back the effects of Mensis' Rituals/Beckoning of the Nightmare Newborn(Mergo, formerly the Queen &Oeden's Child of Blood)

I also dont see how Gehrman could be the child of the MP. Did he mean as a surrogate or actual blood child? I havent read the Paleblood Hunt in a while so I dont remember if this was part of his older version or if he added it in the newest edit.

What is your theory for the origin of the umbilical cord thats found in the workshop? I dont believe it could be from a human child seeing how its clearly of otherworldly design. I believe the 3 cords are part of the same one that Byrgenwerth took from Kos' carcass after experimenting on it and killing her child.

Your theory about Mergo makes sense to me. So basically Micolash created the nightmare dimension in his attempt to latch onto a great one using Mergo's umbilical cord.
Mergo's spirit or whatever (I didn't know about the fetus stone) answered and was trapped itself in the nightmare dimension along with his wet nurse. The nightmare dimension is stopped from engulfing all Yharnam thanks to the Church and Willem using Rom's powers.
I don't know why the Moon Presence wants to interfere though using hunters to put an end to the nightmare, maybe it was considered a threat to itself if it wanted the hunting to continue.

About the umbilical cords, I don't think they can be parts of a single one.
You obtain them from totally different sources. One from Arianna, an other from Iosefka (and they belong to their own attempts at giving birth to a great one, they're not relics they found somewhere), then we have Mergo's and the last one if from the Gerhman's workshop.
They are different.
The speculation about the Gerhman umbilical cord was that it belonged to a woman she loved (maybe his wife) that died during a failed attempt at giving birth to a great one. He kept the umbilical cord and he ended up summoning the Moon Presence which trapped him in the Hunter's Dream to make him his slave. The doll was made after her.
I'm reading that in the DLC there's something that might confirm this. But I've still not played it.

 

[Wensih]

Has anyone read this?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JL5acskAT_2t062HILImBkV8eXAwaqOj611mSjK-vZ8/preview

It's a great read and although I don't agree with some its a pretty damn good summary.

I started reading tonight. While I think the research and theories that went into this are phenomenal, I think that it's poorly written and introduces topics and terms only to explain them paragraphs later. For example, he first mentions the Moon Presence in this sentence with no prior introduction to what the Moon Presence is: "It prevented the beckoning of the moon presence by Laurence's Healing Church." It's paragraphs later that I discover that the Moon Presence is a Great One and when the author changes Moon Presence into a proper noun.

 

[Orochinagis]

To me the biggest problem is still the role of the Moon Presence which seems to be the actual mastermind behind the hunting.
The Church originally created the hunting as you say just to get rid of beasts during the red moon nights but the whole Hunter's Dream dimension doesn't seem something that Church wanted (just like the didn't want people to go mad or transform in mosters), Gehrman was trapped inside it by the Moon Presence.
So the biggest question is the goal of the MP.
Having a child like all the other Great Ones want to? But how? I don't think that Great Ones can have a child by obsorbing blood echoes from the hunters.
Also the MP clearly doesn't want hunters to find umbilical cords infact with three of them the player is considered an enemy/rival.
Also I don't get if there's a specific event that puts an end to the red moon and a specific one that triggers it. We can say that it's the MP that brings the red moon cyclically though.

And an other doubt I have is why if you use the lanterns in Yharnam it asks you if you want to awake as if you were dreaming while exploring Yharnam? Is that because you're actually trapped in the Hunter's Dream but allowed to travel to accomplish your mission?

Gehrman is hosting the dream to support the Hunters in the hunting nights but nothing really changed to break the hunt, Laurence fell into bloodlust and Willem stopped his research about the old blood. Years, maybe centuries have passed and Gehrman got trapped inside the dream like you said, unable to break his vow about keeping the Dream alive waiting for Laurence or Willem to set him free, according to his dialogue he is too old to support the Dream and is waiting for them to remove his shakles.

Oh, Laurence... what's taking you so long... I've grown too old for this, of little use now, I'm afraid...

Oh, Laurence... Master Willem... Somebody help me... Unshackle me please, anybody... I've had enough of this dream... The night blocks all sight... Oh, somebody, please...

Thats why he turns hostile if you want to take his place, he believes you already fell into bloodlust and he trust no one but Laurence and Willem which means both were part of the creation of the Dream somehow.

Moon presence only shows up when the Gehrman is killed and the dream turn into a Nightmare esque enviroment probably due the dream is desintegrating without the host. Mechanic that was never in action probably due obvious gameplay consecuences.

But anyway MP's true motives to use its energy as a battery to support the Dream are never mentioned or if the moon presence is captive inside the dream and breaks free (making the dream turning into a Nighmare?) because you killed Gehrman is unknown, drinking its blood turns you into a Great One probably because you absorb it inside its world.

The last question is quite easy, the dream is not in earth but in another dimension or realm, it is on its own world so the hunter "wake ups" and return to Yharman. Saying this when Gehrman kills you in the Dream he detachs you from the Dream like he did with the Old Hunters