Council Pop
Member
We already have a right wing bully for PM
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British Labour MP has asked the UK government to regulate loot boxes
- Thread starter Audioboxer
- Start date
We already have a right wing bully for PM
Save a stamp and just email them?
Bits N Pieces
Member
Panini are going to be quaking in their boots.
The alcohol point makes sense. Getting the really manipulative stuff out there makes sense but stuff like lootboxs in Battlefront 2 etc seems like such a minor thing to get ruffled up by. Unless the revealed odds are designed to drag more money out of people but in a games industry designed to keep players playing and pouring money back into the industry, making money on exploiting people is what this industry does best.
Audioboxer
Member
The industry making money is fine, but making money whilst being transparent should be a goal. Debates about "gambling" till pigs fly aside, when money is being handed over for RNG that is unknown an argument can be made in this current digital-heavy world we live in/play in/interact with, drop rates would be beneficial. Sometimes life has to react to how the humans in this era are behaving. Loot boxes and paying money for digital goods is a massive industry now, where consumer protections are pretty much the wild wild west. Existing laws/regulations are stumbling to be updated/interact with some of the digital entertainment industry as it stands.
I'd recommend signing the petition. It's over 10k now but more signatures help. After you sign it, it will give you a link to your local MP for email
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/201300
It links to a Kotaku article on China at least. The petition seems like it's been written by a 19-year-old who's been burnt spending £1,000+ of their part-time wages on loot boxes. That's beside the point though, getting things spoken about by MPs is the key here.
ArkhamFantasy
Member
If the industry refuses to regulate itself then it presents the possibility of the government stepping in, which is bad for everyone.
There's no way to spin this, the ESRB and PEGI fucked up, badly.
There's no way to spin this, the ESRB and PEGI fucked up, badly.
Daffy Duck
Member
If theres one Government I trust to fuck the loot box stuff up its the Tories
Sir_Crocodile
Member
The ๖ۜBronx;252063950 said:
It's absolute garbage and adds nothing. We don't leave gambling unregulated just because it doesn't effect some people.
With our current governfment they'd just try and ban the purchase of loot boxes. :/
Heartskips
Banned
Excellent. Hopefully people will support this.
A second class stamp is 56p.
And also I think the majority of people that write to their MP are older. And so they would use paper.
NullPointer
Member
This right here.
Audioboxer
Member
I doubt it. It generates soo much money. Then again, most of the taxes that are owed through the gaming industry don't exactly make it into the Governments hands/countries tax pot ¯\_(ツ
_/¯Seeing some of the "but trading cards" posts as usual. If you don't want loot boxes to be regulated just come out and say that. Ultimately, if trading cards end up needing more small print on the back that says something like "1 rare card guaranteed, 1 in 10 chance of receiving multiple", so what? That doesn't stop you buying trading cards. I doubt many people on here are buying them, it just seems to be a lazy defence to say "please don't regulate my loot boxes".
The ๖ۜBronx;252063950 said:
this is the 'big government vs small government' approach. US is more favourable towards less regulations, Europe is in favour of more regulations. I'm pretty sure that companies will not keep in check themselves and that the market and the consumers will not self regulate towards any kind of satisfying ethical position. we need governments to protect us from the growing power of companies, now more than ever.
Stone Ocean
Member
Publishers won't do anything, they'll just push as hard as they canThe ๖ۜBronx;252063950 said:
ESRB won't do anything
PEGI won't do anything
Consumers won't do anything, "just don't buy it" means nothing when talking about games that sell millions upon millions of copies. People don't care.
Night.Ninja
Banned
Wow speechless
MPS pay about 100* ore attention to a letter than an email. Emails wont go near the MP normally, but almost every letter they receive gets read by them personally,
peanutbutterlatte
Member
She couldnt bully beef
A letter has much more value than an email.
Whether it should have more value or not is an entirely different discussion.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
I don't trust the government to handle law that requires knowledge of how game mechanics and microtransactions should and shouldn't be combined.
Gambling has a narrow legal definition that loot boxes don't meet so gambling laws aren't a good fit either.
The best path forward is self regulation, which would have to come from the platform holders rather than publishers or the ESRB.
Gambling has a narrow legal definition that loot boxes don't meet so gambling laws aren't a good fit either.
The best path forward is self regulation, which would have to come from the platform holders rather than publishers or the ESRB.
NullPointer
Member
Trading cards can also be traded and sold, and singles can be bought from stores.
And as the Beastcast for this week pointed out, they're not tailor-made to the buyer in the way that digital lootboxes can be, when backed by metrics gathered in these online games.
The ๖ۜBronx;252063950 said:
This comment like most of the Reddit thread comments are complaining that this will cause the government to take away their video games.
I'm hoping most of them are just dumb teenagers thinking video games are some underground thing. And not an industry worth billions with tens of thousands of employees
ArkhamFantasy
Member
He's bringing up a good point that ideally, the industry would regulate itself so we dont have a bunch of old (and conservative) people in the government doing it and fucking everything up.
What he so conveniently left out is that the ESRB/PEGI folded like paper towels on this issue so THEY opened up the possibility of government intervention. He should direct his anger towards the industry itself, not at the government for looking into an unregulated predatory scheme.
JonnyDBrit
Member
Yeah. They're a physical thing that ultimately retains some modicum of value. The contents of lootboxes often cannot be traded even within the games where they're obtained, and even for those that are, they're literally nothing outside of the games they're used in.
There's parallels, sure, but enough differences as well that one should account for them.
Roberto Larcos
Member
Then we change the legal definition of gambling. That's why we petition the lawmakers.
Not really loot boxes are more akin to buying Magic or Pokemon cards which isnt gambling. As you know youll receive a certain set of items you dont know the rarity or if you receive duplicates.
Gambling would be the case that you buy a loot box and get nothing out of it. Loot boxes can be ignored.
Audioboxer
Member
Platform holders, as in Sony/MS, or the publishers? Considering Blizzard reworking Overwatch just to escape Chinese regulation, leaving this in the hands of the publishers is a bit... funny.
I've seen all the debates around this. I was just trying to boil it down to the closest like for like situation I can think off. Odds having to be revealed. Which for anyone that enjoys spending money on loot boxes, that does... nothing to hamper your enjoyment? Unless you have an innate fear that if you know the drop rates it might make you retroactively feel you wasted your money? The odds are stacked against you getting the skins/legendaries you want. That is how money is made, more money that it ever would be just letting people buy the skins for something reasonable ($5~10). Many may roll the dice at $60/80/100+ just trying to get one or a few skins/items they want.
Personally, I think that is why there is some vicious defending against any sort of criticism/request for regulation of loot boxes. Some people are soo invested monetarily they've passed into the realms of self-doubt/regret but don't want that piled onto their feelings if and when drop rates/chances are known. It's not as pleasant rolling your money away when you know that winning chance is 7%. Not knowing it means you can convince yourself THIS is your time to win big, without the reality slapping some sense into you.
Although I don't think anything will come from this (yet) it's the start of a conversation that might lead somewhere and it might cause publishers to hold back a bit from going too far knowing it's actually being discussed and going too far could tip it over the edge.
I'm not surprised it's the UK doing this though, as I said in the ersb thread the only way something would get done about it would be through UK/EU not USA.
Regardless it's a tricky situation since I don't think card packs, kinder eggs etc should fall under it and I'm not sure I trust our government to get it right but at least it's not just being completely ignored and they recognise there's an issue
I'm not surprised it's the UK doing this though, as I said in the ersb thread the only way something would get done about it would be through UK/EU not USA.
Regardless it's a tricky situation since I don't think card packs, kinder eggs etc should fall under it and I'm not sure I trust our government to get it right but at least it's not just being completely ignored and they recognise there's an issue
ArkhamFantasy
Member
1. Laws and Regulations are suppose to adapt to new predatory schemes, whether it fits the 50-100+ year old definitions of physical real world gambling doesnt mean it shouldnt be regulated.
2.Look at the thread title, its not being ignored, the ESRB and PEGI have opened the door for the government (Conservative governments btw) to come in and regulate the industry.
Roberto Larcos
Member
At any rate, I'd accept a little mark on the bottom of a Kinder Surprise indicating which toy is inside as collateral in this instance. If the kid really wants to be surprised, they can pick it blind. If they want to complete the set, they can do so more easily. Everyone wins (except Kinder).
Cards have resell value and some rare cards can go up to hundreds of dollars among collectors. Loot Boxes have no reseller market and once you buy you're stuck with it even if it's a duplicate.
He really should have asked his mum to check the grammar before submitting this government petition.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/201300
It links to a Kotaku article on China at least. The petition seems like it's been written by a 19-year-old who's been burnt spending £1,000+ of their part-time wages on loot boxes. That's beside the point though, getting things spoken about by MPs is the key here.
I agree. If the industry keeps pushing and pushing, someone will eventually push back.
So if a casino decides they don't want to adhere to gambling laws anymore, all they have to do is hand out some consolation prize of negligible value with every play? Cool.
Can't people trade or sell duplicates though?
Daffy Duck
Member
I wouldnt mind lootboxes at all if they offered me the ability to just buy what I want.
I mean they like giving us options, let those of us who dont like gambling just buy what we want and let the gamblers gamble on loot boxes.
I also dont have to buy a £60 sticker book for my Pokemon cards, and then have to buy extra pages to stick them in to get the full experience.
I mean they like giving us options, let those of us who dont like gambling just buy what we want and let the gamblers gamble on loot boxes.
I also dont have to buy a £60 sticker book for my Pokemon cards, and then have to buy extra pages to stick them in to get the full experience.
If this becomes an EU wide regulation, in some countries the games would be automatically banned from sale. This a big deal.
In fact I've been thinking of starting an EU parliament petition to hopefully have it categorized as gambling across all the EU. However, my English isn't perfect and I'd like to do it properly.
https://petiport.secure.europarl.europa.eu/petitions/en/registration/register
Audioboxer
Member
There's some decent debate about trading cards here, including this comment
https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/73eitw/arent_things_like_magic_the_gatherings_booster/
As I mentioned above as well, what's soo terrible that if digital games have some transparency applied to them (drop rates), if physical cards get caught up in that regulation passing in the UK?
Why would a game have to be banned? If you mean individual countries ban gambling, that is on them. The rest of the nations do not need to bend the knee because of some countries who take prohibition too far. IIRC Germany used to ban really violent video games (it still bans Nazi imagery in games I believe). Australia once didn't have an 18/M equivalent rating for games.
The UK is coming out of the EU anyway... So this specific topic seems more like the UK doing its own thing, like China has.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/73eitw/arent_things_like_magic_the_gatherings_booster/
As I mentioned above as well, what's soo terrible that if digital games have some transparency applied to them (drop rates), if physical cards get caught up in that regulation passing in the UK?
Why would a game have to be banned? If you mean individual countries ban gambling, that is on them. The rest of the nations do not need to bend the knee because of some countries who take prohibition too far. IIRC Germany used to ban really violent video games (it still bans Nazi imagery in games I believe). Australia once didn't have an 18/M equivalent rating for games.
The UK is coming out of the EU anyway... So this specific topic seems more like the UK doing its own thing, like China has.
All loot boxes can be ignored no one tells you you have to buy x amount off them. The government doesnt need involvement in this case.
Everybody wins?
Stone Ocean
Member
If publishers care about that, they can go ahead and get rid of lootboxes.
Spaced Harrier
Member
Good. Fuck this utter creeping nonsense now.
I don't trust the UK government, but PEGI and the publishers brought this on themselves through sheer greed.
It is.
You are paying real money, and don't know what you are getting.
That's the definition of gambling.
It may or may not be specifically legislated against in your region but that doesn't prevent it from being gambling.
I haven't seen anyone except me actually go to the trouble of posting their local laws, and mine imply that publishers are bookies.
Regardless, laws are old and technology moves fast.
But can always be changed.
PEGIs hypocrisy is clearly seen in how they treat simulated gambling games like SEGA casino are rated strictly 18+
The gambling in Lootboxes isn't simulated.
It's pure, distilled, finely engineered and precise.
Games with lootboxes should be 18+
Detailed odds displayed.
Publishers should have to have a Gambling license.
They should have to work with anti Gambling charities to support the victims of gambling addiction
Have systems in place to cool down loot box purchases. Hard limits.
Display front and centre in their games links to Gambling addiction recovery sites.
I've hardened my stance on this in the last couple of days when a friend told me he dropped 500 into a game.
I know he can't afford that, but he was vulnerable and exploited.
That's the equivalent of 12 full priced games. Years Worth for most people, and one game got that out of him in a couple of weeks.
I don't trust the UK government, but PEGI and the publishers brought this on themselves through sheer greed.
half the posters here said:
It is.
You are paying real money, and don't know what you are getting.
That's the definition of gambling.
It may or may not be specifically legislated against in your region but that doesn't prevent it from being gambling.
I haven't seen anyone except me actually go to the trouble of posting their local laws, and mine imply that publishers are bookies.
Regardless, laws are old and technology moves fast.
But can always be changed.
PEGIs hypocrisy is clearly seen in how they treat simulated gambling games like SEGA casino are rated strictly 18+
The gambling in Lootboxes isn't simulated.
It's pure, distilled, finely engineered and precise.
Games with lootboxes should be 18+
Detailed odds displayed.
Publishers should have to have a Gambling license.
They should have to work with anti Gambling charities to support the victims of gambling addiction
Have systems in place to cool down loot box purchases. Hard limits.
Display front and centre in their games links to Gambling addiction recovery sites.
I've hardened my stance on this in the last couple of days when a friend told me he dropped 500 into a game.
I know he can't afford that, but he was vulnerable and exploited.
That's the equivalent of 12 full priced games. Years Worth for most people, and one game got that out of him in a couple of weeks.
Daffy Duck
Member
They cant be ignored in Call of Duty where there are better weapons in them.
That system is the most predatory out there.