Support NeoGAF

[LAM09]

Hope it happens

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

All they've said is that it doesn't fall under the category of gambling. Which it doesn't. They haven't said they're not looking at implementing something else.

They didnt say they were either. The ESRB in particular even went as far as to make a whataboutism to deflect attention away from lootboxes, it looked like it was written by Bobby Kotick.

PEGI was more professional about it, they didnt deflect or use whataboutism, they simply stated that this didnt meet the legal definition of gambling, and that they aren't in charge of declaring something gambling. Both of which are true, but they didnt follow up with a "But we're looking into ways to regulate this and make sure people are not being exploited" or anything along those lines.

All they did was play defense for the publishers. Not exactly inspiring any confidence, which is probably why we have stuff like this happening in the OP.

 

[Oxirane]

Slightly off topic: Have any games with gameplay altering loot-boxes (besides card games) implemented a draft (or sealed) event system? Then those items would be added to the user account to use in other things.

I haven't paid too much attention to the loot box implementations recently so, off the top of my head, some things I'd like to see considered (assuming loot boxes won't be going away):
- Odds of getting things,
- Odds for things within each category

+pie in the sky type stuff
- Notifications of which things will be consumable vs permanent
- Refunds on currency if the odds get changed, or new rarities added
- Running totals of how much money has been spent
- Monthly spending limits (possibly with opt-out option)

 

[Salty Rice]

It would be amazing if the UK government does something good for once.

You can defend them how much you want but shitty loot boxes need to be dealt with in some way.

 

[Marcel]

Considering what the UK has done on porn and the internet they will just ban any game with a monetization structure. Kind of crazy to see people cut off their nose to spite their face after the video game violence regulation debacles of the 1990s. All it takes for gamers to become paragons of morality and virtue is a company reaching for your wallet apparently.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

Second to top post there, to add some discussion point.

That's bull. Part of the responsibility of the government is to protect its citizens, to protect consumers from predatory and manipulative practices from corporations. When they fail to self-regulate, then the government must regulate them.


If anything this would hopefully scare the industry to change things with lootboxes like it did in the 90s to scare them to create the ESRB.

 

[Audioboxer]

Slightly off topic: Have any games with gameplay altering loot-boxes (besides card games) implemented a draft (or sealed) event system? Then those items would be added to the user account to use in other things.

I haven't paid too much attention to the loot box implementations recently so, off the top of my head, some things I'd like to see considered (assuming loot boxes won't be going away):
- Odds of getting things,
- Odds for things within each category

+pie in the sky type stuff
- Notifications of which things will be consumable vs permanent
- Refunds on currency if the odds get changed, or new rarities added
- Running totals of how much money has been spent
- Monthly spending limits (possibly with opt-out option)

MS did get burned on not disclosing their Forza 7 VIP change to becoming a consumable (not legally, but I think they feared false advertising claims when the public raged out), but that got changed on their store to reflect being consumable. This is prior to them completely reversing the change back to permanent. I guess that could apply to loot boxes where it's consumables (loot boxes with perishables must state that they contain them).

The rest of the pie in the sky stuff will mostly be put down to parental controls. As in, you restrict credit card access and that is how you're supposed to deal with spending. Anyone over 15/18 (whenever you can get your own bank account) is arguably stated to be in charge of their own finances. Bait/switch with drop rates is really why we want transparency. Then if a pub/dev can be investigated for suspicious drop rate rigging, they'd be liable for fines/prosecution if it was proven.

The odds are what most of us are pushing for, either as being regulated as gambling or as a secondary law like what China passed for drop rates to be known to adapt to our current digital future. Just a more robust implementation than China so Blizzard cannot weasel their way out again.

Considering what the UK has done on porn and the internet they will just ban any game with a monetization structure. Kind of crazy to see people cut off their nose to spite their face after the video game violence regulation debacles of the 1990s. All it takes for gamers to become paragons of morality and virtue is a company reaching for your wallet apparently.

They haven't banned the rest of the gambling industry, so that's a bit of a false comparison here. There's enough evidence the UK will happily allow gambling games if regulated. Go on Sky Bet and you can play plenty.

I posted the porn comment in the OP as I found it a funny reddit comment. It's true our Conservative Government needs swipes taken at it, but jokes aside here as I just said to you, you do not actually having a backing for the opinion games with gambling would be outright banned.

 

[Tovarisc]

It would be amazing if the UK government does something good for once.

You can defend them how much you want but shitty loot boxes need to be dealt with in some way.

And if they are serious about this it kicks ball rolling, most likely leads to EU and US also jumping on this particular regulation train.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

Considering what the UK has done on porn and the internet they will just ban any game with a monetization structure. Kind of crazy to see people cut off their nose to spite their face after the video game violence regulation debacles of the 1990s. All it takes for gamers to become paragons of morality and virtue is a company reaching for your wallet apparently.

This is the publishers and PEGIs fault, no one elses. Neogaf didnt submit this petition. Most of the people against them want the industry to regulate itself, not to have a conservative government come in and mess with it.

 

[Anne]

OW stuff

I'll explain the system. You get lootboxes for levelling or buying them. You get one rare or higher item in every box, and it can even be 4 legendaries if you are lucky. If you get a dupe, you get a small amount of currency based on the rarity of the dupe. You keep that forever unless you spend it.

When events happen, lootboxes change during the event. Any box bought or earned during the event window gives an event item along with the normal droprate. Certain items are only available during the event i.e. Witch Mercy is only available in Halloween events.

You can use currency earned from dupes to buy items. The catch is that event items cost 3x as much currency to get. That sounds nuts, and it only sort of is. It's reasonable to earn enough currency regularly playing to grab an event legendary. It's still quite an uptick on timed content though. The events will last like 3 weeks~.

The common strat for most long time players is to just keep playing outside of events. Once you have enough content, there is literally no reason to buy a non-event lootbox ever. None of the content is going anywhere and you will get it from RNG or get the currency to get it pretty fast actually. You can end up with enough currency very easily to just buy things out of events if you play daily.

The issue comes in for those that don't play daily. When an event rolls around, that's when you have to buy boxes. That's the main criticism of the events: Most new content is gated behind events. If you don't play regularly, that's where you gotta drop some money on the RNG, and it can be a bit much if you're aiming for specifics.

As far as the Chinese thing goes, they don't expect any reasonable consumer to ever buy $800 dollars of currency for a skin. That's not even whale chasing. Whales are not even that stupid or addicted. You can drop $100 in boxes and play just a bit and get everything you want out of the event and then some. It's just a way to skirt the law and give people something of so little value as to make it really just about the boxes. Why they do that, Idk but it doesn't look good any way you cut it.


Just want to give you the full spec of the system. The main criticisms really are centered around event content being a bit exploitative and their dodging of Chinese laws. Event content used to not be purchasable period btw. People kicked and screamed and yelled and that got changed.

 

[Marcel]

This is the publishers and PEGIs fault, no one elses. Neogaf didnt submit this petition. Most of the people against them want the industry to regulate itself, not to have a conservative government come in and mess with it.

If people want clueless bureaucrats with no nuance to solve their problems then they will get a clueless bureaucratic solution with no nuance i.e. flat sales bans.

 

[spanna]

You might want to correct your initial statement to your MP.

The Isle of Man is not a British territory. We are a crown dependency.

We probably have the good protection for online gambling etc as we have a large e-gaming sector here and it is well regulated.

 

[Jonnax]

If people want clueless bureaucrats with no nuance to solve their problems then they will get a clueless bureaucratic solution with no nuance i.e. flat sales bans.

Well then that's too bad. Maybe they shouldn't have been so exploitative in the first place.


Flat sales ban of what?

You're trying to say that game publishers won't change their games to be compliant with the law?

 

[mazillion]

Would defining loot boxes as gambling also define stuff like hearthstone card packs as gambling? I'm not really sure how you'd distinguish between the two.

Yeah I'm not sure either... I have a tough time imagining a world where Hearthstone card packs are suddenly government regulated.

 

[Audioboxer]

Well then that's too bad. Maybe they shouldn't have been so exploitative in the first place.


Flat sales ban of what?

You're trying to say that game publishers won't change their games to be compliant with the law?

Not much point in arguing with Marcel around this, considering this is the kind of response you can get

There's no point in arguing with me. I disagree with you. All the self-regulatory bodies that actually matter disagree with you. Customers have tacitly accepted the loot box systems and made them successful. Save your breath, your arguing is simply for your own ego because the fight's over.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=251817203&postcount=251

I already said to go check out Sky Bet, but here is the National Lottery site

Games with gambling aren't getting "flat out banned" in the UK. It's another deflection like the "but trading cards" arguments. Ironically, in this topic we've discovered how trading cards do tell you their odds.

 

[Stallion Dan]

If they toss it over to the Gambling Commission then, assuming anything happens at all (unlikely), we get every game with lootboxes branded 18+ and lootboxes don't actually go anywhere.

We'd get the odds at least.

 

[DavidDesu]

Would defining loot boxes as gambling also define stuff like hearthstone card packs as gambling? I'm not really sure how you'd distinguish between the two.

I would argue that anything where you spend money to get an undefined item or group of items pretty much is gambling. You’re paying money for something that could be rare and have value, or you get a ton of duplicate items you already have and everyone else has and has next to no value as a result.

I know this will piss off some people who play games where it has shades of gambling... but I’d say the sooner we clamp down hard on this stuff the better. The fact that so many of these games, either within the game, or outside of the game, allow trading of said items ultimately using actual cash then it absolutely becomes gambling then. Money is intrinsically involved.

Also, these games and the whole loot crate functionality does use very similar techniques to gambling to lure people to pay money. Even just teasing cool aesthetic additions is enough of a lure and it WILL mean that some people with addictive and hoarding personalities will become addicted and some will ultimately spend money they shouldn’t be spending just to get a fancy paint job on a virtual vehicle or whatever.


I’m sorry guys but I think it’s gambling and the publishers of these games know that while many people can resist getting involved, they’re going to make a fuck ton of free cash off of those who can’t control their addictive tendencies. I’d like to see pricing for consumables in games come under legislation also, it’s madness that most mobile games, with gameplay revolving around endlessly making your numbers bigger and little more, have consumable currencies in game that can be bought for £60. It’s insane to any rational person and these games aren’t really games, they’re time sinks charging insane amounts so people can continue the basic gameplay loop of levelling ever higher.

 

[Chobel]

Why do many people here think UK officials will outright ban games with lootboxes/MTs instead of actually regulating this stuff (assuming they even address this)? Is gambling banned in UK?

 

[Stead Fast]

If you sign the petition link in the first post it automatically gives you a link to your local MPs details (email) to let them know you signed it.

It has now passed the 10k mark

I'll be doing that regardless but I'm pretty vocal to my MP regardless so I'll do both.

This is the best news I've seen all day.

 

[Audioboxer]

Why do many people here think UK officials will outright ban games with lootboxes/MTs instead of actually regulating this stuff (assuming they even address this)? Is gambling banned in UK?

No, see above. Games with gambling aren't even banned.

 

[paperspace]

⁣

 

[Marcel]

Why do many people here think UK officials will outright ban games with lootboxes/MTs instead of actually regulating this stuff (assuming they even address this)? Is gambling banned in UK?

I dunno, it's probably because of the various idiotic choices that the UK government and some of its denizens have made as of late. It would fit in with the rest of their behavior from 2016 onwards. Not to excuse any of the idiots here in America to be certain, lol.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

Why do many people here think UK officials will outright ban games with lootboxes/MTs instead of actually regulating this stuff (assuming they even address this)? Is gambling banned in UK?

Fear of old conservatives who have never played a game sticking their noses in something that they dont have a good understand of.

I understand the concern and i share it, thats why we have PEGI and the ESRB , but those companies folded like paper towels on this issue and here we are.

 

[BobTheFork]

Yesterday, it was worrying that no one was doing anything.

I mean, we can't win can we?

I'm more interested in them regulating the re-selling of virtual loot. The gambling aspect worries more than just preying on people with real money loot boxes.

 

[Veon]

Why do many people here think UK officials will outright ban games with lootboxes/MTs instead of actually regulating this stuff (assuming they even address this)? Is gambling banned in UK?

Unfortunately, our government isn't in the best shape at the moment and they could use this as an excuse to regulate gaming even further.

 

[RPGam3r]

I don't view these as gambling, much like I view cards, shopkins (or the many other blind bag toys that my daughter loves) etc. So in turn I don't expect them to have the same regulations.

 

[CookTrain]

This tears me whichways... The last few days have shown the industry at large to be somewhat dismissive of concerns about the issue. So stepping up a notch to government, maybe that's the only way to get something done. Conversely, there are some members of parliament that have an axe to grind with gaming.

I guess if developers, publishers and PEGI wanted to hold course, this is the risk they run. Keith Vaz is probably salivating at having a new in-road to chastise videogames.

 

[Linkified]

Drugs can be ignored so why does the government bother making them illegal? Let all the cocaine and heroine run wild, people can just ignore it if they don't want it

Are you seriously comparing Health regulations with regulations for a small part of an entertainment industry? Not comparable at all.

A loot box is either used an ingame currency - so who cares. Or uses real money - in the box you know that you are or going to get an item(s) for use within that game. Gambling is where there is an odds that you won't receive anything . I.e. Take a risky action for a desired result. There is no risk with loot boxes. The user is guaranteed items to use in the game.

 

[Marcel]

This tears me whichways... The last few days have shown the industry at large to be somewhat dismissive of concerns about the issue. So stepping up a notch to government, maybe that's the only way to get something done. Conversely, there are some members of parliament that have an axe to grind with gaming.

I guess if developers, publishers and PEGI wanted to hold course, this is the risk they run. Keith Vaz is probably salivating at having a new in-road to chastise videogames.

Yeah you guys be sure to have fun with those old guard violence alarmists and moral gatekeepers who would love to have a new chance to take a run at broad actions on video games again.

 

[Audioboxer]

Are you seriously comparing Health regulations with regulations for a small part of an entertainment industry? Not comparable at all.

A loot box is either used an ingame currency - so who cares. Or uses real money - in the box you know that you are or going to get an item(s) for use within that game. Gambling is where there is an odds that you won't receive anything . I.e. Take a risky action for a desired result. There is no risk with loot boxes. The user is guaranteed items to use in the game.

How about not regulating for sexual content/violence/bad language?

The monetary chasing of a desired outcome plays into the mind in the same way gambling does. There's no point in pretending gamers do not open loot boxes for legendaries, whilst not really giving a shit about the other crap you can get. Hence why some of us are a little frustrated at others obsessive denial of the word "gambling" being anywhere near loot boxes. Even outwith the law/ESRB/PEGI debate. It should be pretty obvious to anyone why chasing a desired outcome by spending money in an RNG system feels like gambling.

How gambling principles and seductive animation compel players to drop cash on card packs and weapon crates.

http://www.pcgamer.com/behind-the-addictive-psychology-and-seductive-art-of-loot-boxes/

 

[jwhit28]

Are you seriously comparing Health regulations with regulations for a small part of an entertainment industry? Not comparable at all.

A loot box is either used an ingame currency - so who cares. Or uses real money - in the box you know that you are or going to get an item(s) for use within that game. Gambling is where there is an odds that you won't receive anything . I.e. Take a risky action for a desired result. There is no risk with loot boxes. The user is guaranteed items to use in the game.

It's still the same sort of predatory behavior as gambling and the publishers should have to fund programs for people that become addicted. Right now they can't even bother to acknowledge that it can become a problem.

 

[nekkid]

How common are games where you use money to purchase loot boxes?

I don’t mean the purchase of in-game currency that can be used to buy loot boxes or other items, I mean you are directly handing over money for the loot box and only the loot box.

 

[Audioboxer]

How common are games where you use money to purchase loot boxes?

I don’t mean the purchase of in-game currency that can be used to buy loot boxes or other items, I mean you are directly handing over money for the loot box and only the loot box.

Nearly all of them that have loot boxes. It's more a case of finding games where you can't buy currency/keys.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

Yeah you guys be sure to have fun with those old guard violence alarmists and moral gatekeepers who would love to have a new chance to take a run at broad actions on video games again.

Why aren't you acknowledging peoples posts about PEGI? People here are calling for PEGI to regulate, not the government.

 

[Chris1]

Are you seriously comparing Health regulations with regulations for a small part of an entertainment industry? Not comparable at all.

He's saying there's no point in the government regulating lootbox gambling because people can just ignore it. Well people can just ignore drugs or even alcohol/smoking too.

Of course those are more extreme examples as they have effects on peoples health but gambling addictions isn't something to laugh about either you know. The point I'm making is just because something can be ignored doesn't mean it shouldn't be regulated.

 

[CookTrain]

How common are games where you use money to purchase loot boxes?

I don’t mean the purchase of in-game currency that can be used to buy loot boxes or other items, I mean you are directly handing over money for the loot box and only the loot box.

Halo 5 and Overwatch are two I think of immediately.

 

[Moze]

Seems like something Tom Watson would care about.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

How common are games where you use money to purchase loot boxes?

I don't mean the purchase of in-game currency that can be used to buy loot boxes or other items, I mean you are directly handing over money for the loot box and only the loot box.

It's becoming normal now. Shadow of War, Forza 7, Battlefront 2, and CODWW2 all have them. Thats why the lootcrate discussion has blown up in the last week, thats why PEGI and ESRB issued statements, and thats why governments are receiving petitions about it.

 

[nekkid]

Halo 5 and Overwatch are two I think of immediately.

Well to me those types are the only ones you could potentially regulate.

 

[nekkid]

It's becoming normal now. Shadow of War, Forza 7, Battlefront 2, and CODWW2 all have them.

Not sure about the others, but that doesn’t fit my question at all.

 

[Audioboxer]

Not sure about the others, but that doesn’t fit my question at all.

Buying currency for the loot box is pretty much the same as buying the loot box. I'm not sure what the distinction is between key and box itself? Both lead to money being used to open it.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

Buying currency for the loot box is pretty much the same as buying the loot box. I'm not sure what the distinction is between key and box itself? Both lead to money being used to open it.

Yeah, im also confused, whats the difference?

 

[CookTrain]

I think if you can put real money in and get loot boxes for it, it's kind of immaterial the hoops you jump through inbetween. Seems like a technicality at best.

 

[nekkid]

Buying currency for the loot box is pretty much the same as buying the loot box. I'm not sure what the distinction is between key and box itself? Both lead to money being used to open it.

Because if you can use the in game currency to buy things of definite worth (i.e. you know what you’re buying) then the purchase itself is not subject to RNG. In Halo 5 it is, where your cash is explicitly used to buy a REQ pack, for example.

Any regulation can only control the purchase, not the usage. If it’s the usage that determines whether or not a loot box is unlocked, then that’s distinctly different.

 

[Chobel]

Buying currency for the loot box is pretty much the same as buying the loot box. I'm not sure what the distinction is between key and box itself? Both lead to money being used to open it.

Yeah, im also confused, whats the difference?

You can't use real money to buy loot boxes Forza 7, at least not yet.

 

[Audioboxer]

Because if you can use the in game currency to buy things of definite worth (i.e. you know what you’re buying) then the purchase itself is not subject to RNG. In Halo 5 it is, where your cash is explicitly used to buy a REQ pack, for example.

Any regulation can only control the purchase, not the usage. If it’s the usage that determines whether or not a loot box is unlocked, then that’s distinctly different.

The box is subject to RNG regardless. Some games do allow in game earned currency to be spent on items from within the box, or on the box itself. However, when money can be paid to open the box and done so repeatedly to an uncapped amount, you're still paying for RNG. Usually you'll find what is needed to buy the box with in game currency is a lot less than the items themselves. The lure is for people to go after the boxes to try and win with their currency, or at least break even. What often happens in these systems to make a profit is you always lose more than you win.

Games have since time began had RNG without real cash being able to be used. Loot games are some of the most popular. We're seeing far more games offer incentives of paying money to keep playing the RNG system. Faster than you can do it without paying money. Hence gamers criticising some games tweaking their economies or balances too far in favour of horrendous grinds to push people out consider paying money.

 

[Chris1]

Buying currency for the loot box is pretty much the same as buying the loot box. I'm not sure what the distinction is between key and box itself? Both lead to money being used to open it.

I think it's a technicality thing, no real difference in practice

FIFA points are worth £0 as they have no real value (you can't sell them so they are worth nothing) while £10 is worth £10

 

[nekkid]

The box is subject to RNG regardless. Some games do allow in game earned currency to be spent on items from within the box, or on the box itself. However, when money can be paid to open the box and done so repeatedly to an uncapped amount, you're still paying for RNG. Usually you'll find what is needed to buy the box with in game currency is a lot less than the items themselves. The lure is for people to go after the boxes to try and win with their currency, or at least break even. What often happens in these systems to make a profit is you always lose more than you win.

I’m not talking about the way the consumer sees it, I’m talking about how legislation can control it. And that would only be able to have a say if you are explicitly purchasing something that’s random.

 

[Audioboxer]

I’m not talking about the way the consumer sees it, I’m talking about how legislation can control it. And that would only be able to have a say if you are explicitly purchasing something that’s random.

I think it would be relatively straightforward. Any games where MTs can buy keys, currency or boxes themselves that lead to the ability to roll the dice in any way. If this is the case drop rates of the box or chance at RNG must be explicitly stated and always up to date. Failure will lead to fines/prosecution of consumer manipulation.

 

[Azusa]

I'd recommend signing the petition. It's over 10k now but more signatures help. After you sign it, it will give you a link to your local MP for email

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/201300

[...]and can lead to real money being lost/earned.

What? You lose money every time you buy a box but you never win any money :thinking:

The whole petition is written very badly. Especially this:

Currently only china has introduced new laws to force companies to display the odds of winning which had been standard in the uk gambling industry for years

I dont understand it. Its so badly worded. China didn't apply gambling laws or regulation to loot boxes but created a new special law for online games.

Also writing China as china and UK as uk. Is it a petition to the government or a blog post?