Support NeoGAF

[LosDaddie]

what is it with the internet and tipping/circumcision threads? I swear it's like a phenomenon.

You mean tipping/mutilation threads

 

[Condom]

bwahaha that can't be true. Still circumcision is for savages.

Eh, isn't that 'factually' not true? Savages would not have access to the proper means for safe circumcision.

 

[Fiktion]

correlation does not equal causation

That's what control groups are for.

 

[PeskyToaster]

Your parents make more life altering choices for you all the time. I don't get why the argument gets thrown around that parents made this specific choice when it's not even a major one.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Your parents make more life altering choices for you all the time. I don't get why the argument gets thrown around that parents made this specific choice when it's not even a major one.

Because its tied to religion, not from their culture and gets to let people sound like their better than others (mutilation! Barbarism! Savagery!).

 

[genjiZERO]

Eh, isn't that 'factually' not true? Savages would not have access to the proper means for safe circumcision.

I'm trying to be a little flippant. I'm saying the practice of circumcise is uncivilised.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

I'm not cut, but you could never tell. No foreskin can contain this beast.

 

[Popstar]

i seriously don't understand how so many people don't think it's a big deal.... I don't care if the baby doesn't remember it later, he still feel huge pain at the moment, and that's not cool at all!

Can you do anything you want to a baby with the excuse that he'll not remember it? I want my baby to look like a lizard, i'll cut his tongue in half, no big deal, he will not remember it!

If an adult want to circumcise himself, no problem, it's his choice! But for the baby.... not at all

It sounds weird but until the 80s or so there was widespread belief infants couldn't feel pain.

 

[The Lamp]

There were other studies like this that suggested that the pain of circumcision at birth has potentially dangerous consequences on mental health that parents don't even realize. A GAFer posted it in the last circumcision thread, but his post disappeared when I tried to refer back to it.

Anyway, yeah I'm not going to circumcise my kids. If they need it later they can get it, otherwise there's no need at birth.

 

[Massingberd]

Your parents make more life altering choices for you all the time. I don't get why the argument gets thrown around that parents made this specific choice when it's not even a major one.

Chopping a piece off your own child's body isn't a major decision? If it isn't, it fucking well should be. This isn't hair, it doesn't grow back, and it does severely hurt.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

lol gonna be a tough sell....

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

I'm not circumcised but even I find this strange. Where is the link?

I mean trauma? How many kids younger than 5 would remember?

 

[PeskyToaster]

Chopping a piece off your own child's body isn't a major decision? If it isn't, it fucking well should be. This isn't hair, it doesn't grow back, and it does severely hurt.

Lots of things hurt. I don't remember it so it doesn't bother me and it's not anything I think about on even a yearly basis. I don't think life for anyone would be different either way. Unless it gave you austism.

 

[unholyrevenger72]

I mean trauma?

Uncut boys on average learn to walk 6 months sooner than the circumcised boys

 

[Flo_Evans]

Has anyone with the "don't remember must be ok" line of reasoning ever think about why we don't remember early childhood?

Infants brains are still developing. If the study shows infant trama has a chance for increased developmental difficulties we would be insane to contine subjecting infants to "optional" trama.

 

[Massingberd]

Lots of things hurt. I don't remember it so it doesn't bother me and it's not anything I think about on even a yearly basis. I don't think life for anyone would be different either way. Unless it gave you austism.

Whether you can remember it as an adult or not is totally irrelevant.

 

[Bleepey]

What does statistician/epidemiology-GAF think of how the lay population is interpreting the data?

 

[Korey]

So...is autism notably higher in countries where they circumcise?

 

[entremet]

Whatever your views on circumcision, doing them on newborn boys seems a bit much. They can always get them later in life, when they can make that decision for themselves.

I do think the whole mutilation angle of argument is a bit hyperbolic.

 

[PeskyToaster]

Whether you can remember it as an adult or not is totally irrelevant.

I think this is an interesting discussion though a bit off-topic now. Probably much more important than the decision over circumcision.

The discussion of memory, experiences, and how they affect and shape us. Do they still have an effect after the memory is gone? Could someone without the ability to form memories learn fear or be affected by trauma? I know there's been studies on short term vs long term memory on people with hippocampus damage but this is different to me.

 

[DJ_Lae]

I'm not circumcised (though you can barely tell) but I call bullshit on this.

 

[Always-honest]

I'm not circumcised (though you can barely tell) but I call bullshit on this.

Huh? My imagination suddenly runs short.

 

[Condom]

I'm trying to be a little flippant. I'm saying the practice of circumcise is uncivilised.

Civilised:
1. Having a high state of culture and social development.
2. Cultured; polite ⇒ a civilized discussion


Obviously the majority of cultures were circumcision is practised have a high form of culture/social development.

Saying you think it's uncivilised is the same as saying people practising it are savages.
I know that you probably mean it in an emotional way but then there are better ways to express your opinion. Stating opinions like facts can hurt discussion.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

I always post this in these threads; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQyLOiwZawA


I wish people were better at removing themselves from either camp. I only think that it should not be peformed on babies. The science is stacked against it, but it keeps getting lost in the scientific backlot.


It sort of terrifies me that in the US, women are conditioned into thinking uncut dicks are gross or less hygienic and ugly and all that shit. But I guess this is nothing compared to what women are going through. The statistics on women getting surgeries for removing labia skin is pretty crazy as well. I had no idea that having a "porn vagina" was part of the womens body images as well.

It's really crazy how far we're taking these things as a society.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

That conclusion is ludicrous.

It's much more likely that families who circumcise their children have other factors that could lead to autism. Given Scandinavian attitudes about circumcision, I would guess that very many of the sampled children are Jewish or Muslim. Jewish people are disproportionately autistic. While I'm not familiar of research performed on Arab populations, the genetic closeness of Jewish and Levantine Arab people might mean that autism is common in both groups.

Because circumcision is not the norm in Denmark, families that do circumcise may often share a religious, genetic, socioeconomic, or intra-cultural background.

I don't want to sound racist but I volunteered at a children's hospital in Toronto and a lot of the kids there were from a Muslim background. They make up 5% of Toronto but maybe 25-30% of the hospital. I don't know if it's because of the high birth rates, but they also have a lot of cousin marriages, I think that has something to do with it too. Yes yes, I know, not everyone there married their cousins or had a lot of babies etc. I'm just hypothesizing, I don't make judgements on individuals.

 

[cruets]

So what's the autism rate with Jewish boys?

 

[serenewarfare]

Ah, the regular GAF circumcision thread. I see all the regular debates are already being had. I have a hard time understanding why it is even argued considering, irrelevant of the facts one way or another, the choice of circumcision comes down to the parents and, no matter how much anyone screams otherwise, it isn't one's place to tell parents what to do and not do to their children as long as the positives and negatives of such action are at least comparable.

To put it otherwise, why fight and argue over something that will most certainly never be resolved?

 

[GameGuru59]

It sort of terrifies me that in the US, women are conditioned into thinking uncut dicks are gross or less hygienic and ugly and all that shit. But I guess this is nothing compared to what women are going through. The statistics on women getting surgeries for removing labia skin is pretty crazy as well. I had no idea that having a "porn vagina" was part of the womens body images as well.

It's really crazy how far we're taking these things as a society.

As long as you can afford it, I don't really see anything wrong with making yourself look better.

 

[Always-honest]

So what's the autism rate with Jewish boys?

After this many briet milas you'd think the entire population would be autistic.
Their houses are built on ground that is part foreskin.

 

[eyeball_kid]

I wish people were better at removing themselves from either camp. I only think that it should not be peformed on babies. The science is stacked against it, but it keeps getting lost in the scientific backlot.


It sort of terrifies me that in the US, women are conditioned into thinking uncut dicks are gross or less hygienic and ugly and all that shit. But I guess this is nothing compared to what women are going through. The statistics on women getting surgeries for removing labia skin is pretty crazy as well. I had no idea that having a "porn vagina" was part of the womens body images as well.

It's really crazy how far we're taking these things as a society.

Wait, what? There is an anti-circumcision camp who thinks that people are just doing this to babies so their penis "looks better"?? Circumcision improves risk factors for STDs, as well as penile/cervical(for female partners) cancer risk reductions. I'm sure there is a minority of people doing this for cosmetic reasons, and obv. religious reasons, but the majority of circumcisions are done for health reasons.

What is the Venn diagram overlap of anti-circumcision people and anti-vaccine people?

 

[Rushersauce]

Wait, what? There is an anti-circumcision camp who thinks that people are just doing this to babies so their penis "looks better"?? Circumcision improves risk factors for STDs, as well as penile/cervical(for female partners) cancer risk reductions. I'm sure there is a minority of people doing this for cosmetic reasons, and obv. religious reasons, but the majority of circumcisions are done for health reasons.

What is the Venn diagram overlap of anti-circumcision people and anti-vaccine people?

You really want to compare anti vaccine people with anti circumcision? Okay....

 

[Tesseract]

Wait, what? There is an anti-circumcision camp who thinks that people are just doing this to babies so their penis "looks better"?? Circumcision improves risk factors for STDs, as well as penile/cervical(for female partners) cancer risk reductions. I'm sure there is a minority of people doing this for cosmetic reasons, and obv. religious reasons, but the majority of circumcisions are done for health reasons.

What is the Venn diagram overlap of anti-circumcision people and anti-vaccine people?

uphill battle, mate. noble of you to carry the torch tho

 

[shinra-bansho]

but the majority of circumcisions are done for health reasons.

It frankly strains credulity to assert that circumcision is predominantly performed on infants because the parents of said infant are thinking about cervical cancer of their baby boy's future sexual partners, or other issues that are abated by adequate hygiene.

Outside of religious reasons, the major reason for or against the prevalence of the practice is cultural, not ex post-facto health justifications.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

Wait, what? There is an anti-circumcision camp who thinks that people are just doing this to babies so their penis "looks better"?? Circumcision improves risk factors for STDs, as well as penile/cervical(for female partners) cancer risk reductions. I'm sure there is a minority of people doing this for cosmetic reasons, and obv. religious reasons, but the majority of circumcisions are done for health reasons.

What is the Venn diagram overlap of anti-circumcision people and anti-vaccine people?

Did I say that?

I think I just said it was crazy that there are so many women who get it for cosmetic "designer vagina" procedures.
I have no idea about the ratio - I wouldn't presume to know, and I have no stakes in it.

 

[FUME5]

"The study suggested that there is a link between the pain of the procedure - the surgical removal of the foreskin - and the development of ASD."

So, if we follow that logic, if you get kicked really hard in the nuts before you turn 5, does that increase your chance of Alzheimer's?

 

[eyeball_kid]

It frankly strains credulity to assert that circumcision is predominantly performed on infants because the parents of said infant are thinking about cervical cancer of their baby boy's future sexual partners, or other issues that are abated by adequate hygiene.

Outside of religious reasons, the major reason for or against the prevalence of the practice is cultural, not ex post-facto health justifications.

Doing a quick bit of googling...

Most of the American circumcisions are not done for religious reasons, but rather, for hygienic ones. I don't know what their citation is for this.

Canadian Family Physician survey:

Single most important reason for circumcision (230 parents surveyed)
Hygiene 73 (51.0%)
Prevention of infection or cancer 22 (15.4%)
Father circumcised 12 (8.4%)
Personal preference 11 (7.7%)
Religion 9 (6.3%)

Granted, 230 is far less than a good statistical sample, but hygiene+infection/cancer prevention is still far and above the main reason.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

Doing a quick bit of googling...

Most of the American circumcisions are not done for religious reasons, but rather, for hygienic ones. I don't know what their citation is for this.

Canadian Family Physician survey:


Granted, 230 is far less than a good statistical sample, but hygiene+infection/cancer prevention is still far and above the main reason.

From a previous post; http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...9/myths-about-circumcision-you-likely-believe

Lot of myths debunked.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Doing a quick bit of googling...

Most of the American circumcisions are not done for religious reasons, but rather, for hygienic ones. I don't know what their citation is for this.

Canadian Family Physician survey:

Granted, 230 is far less than a good statistical sample, but hygiene+infection/cancer prevention is still far and above the main reason.

Setting aside response bias, that a lack of circumcision is considered necessarily unhygienic or less hygienic, when the practice of sound or poor hygiene is essentially unrelated, is itself a cultural artifact.

 

[J2 Cool]

my penis burns at this news. I remember finding out about circumcision and the decision my parents made, and being somewhat pissed my mom was making decisions on my penis. It's fucked up, although I do like how my penis looks. My guess is Americans don't think about religious or hygenic reasons, just aesthetic and populous reasons, which only makes it more fucked.

 

[Amory]

Lol

 

[The One and Done™]

Unlikely.

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

So what's the autism rate with Jewish boys?

LOL, how about the reverse...Jewish cut boys equates to being more wealthy. I've just secured funding for my own warped study.

 

[ItIsOkBro]

mine must have been done by a professional.

 

[Sàmban]

Let me fucking solve this study:

1. Children who get circumcised are much more likely to come from families higher in class standing than lower since circumcisions in NA tend to be done for hygienic reasons.

2. Autism is associated with higher families in higher class standing.


PROBLEM SOLVED. Where's my money, science?

 

[Valhelm]

Doing a quick bit of googling...

Most of the American circumcisions are not done for religious reasons, but rather, for hygienic ones. I don't know what their citation is for this.

Canadian Family Physician survey:


Granted, 230 is far less than a good statistical sample, but hygiene+infection/cancer prevention is still far and above the main reason.

Honestly, I think those are all excuses. I doubt many parents truly think that cutting is significantly more hygienic.

People circumcize their kids because their parents did the same. Lots of people think uncut penises look gross or unnatural.

 

[ibyea]

Managed to access the journal. According to the abstract:

Results With a total of 4986 ASD cases, our study showed that regardless of cultural background circumcised boys were more likely than intact boys to develop ASD before age 10 years (HR = 1.46; 95% CI: 1.11–1.93). Risk was particularly high for infantile autism before age five years (HR = 2.06; 95% CI: 1.36–3.13). Circumcised boys in non-Muslim families were also more likely to develop hyperkinetic disorder (HR = 1.81; 95% CI: 1.11–2.96). Associations with asthma were consistently inconspicuous (HR = 0.96; 95% CI: 0.84–1.10).

M. Frish, J. Simonsen, "Ritual circumcision and risk of autism spectrum disorder in 0- to 9-year-old boys: national cohort study in Denmark", J R Soc Med, DOI: 10.1177/0141076814565942

I will say, those are some rather large confidence interval.

Edit: Here is the statistical method used, for those curious enough:

Statistical methods
Birth and perinatal characteristics and ASD risk
To assess individual associations with ASD risk in both boys and girls, we first examined the birth and perinatal characteristics as explanatory variables in a series of univariate Cox proportional hazards regression analyses with stratification on birth year and age as the underlying time scale.39 Hazard ratios (HRs) with 95% confidence intervals (CIs) served as our effect measure. Next, we used a two-step procedure to select which of the examined birth and perinatal characteristics to include as potential confounders in the main analysis of the association of foreskin status with ASD risk. First, a p value&#8201;<&#8201;0.05 in the associated overall Wald test in univariate analysis qualified birth and perinatal ASD risk factors for further consideration. In the second step, only those birth and perinatal characteristics that were significantly associated with ASD risk in a multivariable model (p&#8201;<&#8201;0.05) were subsequently included as potential confounders in the main analysis.

Ritual circumcision and ASD risk
We compared proportions of ASD subtypes in intact and ritually circumcised boys using the Chi-squared test. All statistical analyses of the association of foreskin status with ASD risk and, in separate analyses, with risk of the two supplementary outcomes, hyperkinetic disorder and asthma, were carried out as Cox proportional hazards regression analyses stratified on birth year and cultural background with age as the underlying time scale and with adjustment for birth and perinatal characteristics that were independently associated with ASD risk, as described above.39 HRs with 95% CIs compared the hazard among ritually circumcised boys with that among the reference group of intact boys. Each boy&#8217;s foreskin status was treated as a time-dependent variable being intact from birth and, when relevant, shifting to circumcised on the recorded date of ritual circumcision. Boys undergoing foreskin surgery other than ritual circumcision were censored on the date of such surgery. By including the cultural background variable and birth year as stratification variables and using age as the underlying time scale in all analyses, we ensured that all HRs of ASD, hyperkinetic disorder and asthma were based on culturally comparable, same-aged strata of circumcised and intact boys observed during comparable calendar years. To determine if the proportional hazards assumption was acceptable in our main model for the association of ritual circumcision with ASD risk, we plotted the martingale-based residuals as a function of the underlying time, an exercise which revealed visually satisfactory model fit.40

Robustness analyses
In a set of supplementary analyses, we evaluated the robustness and specificity of the observed association of ritual circumcision with ASD risk. We had no information about ritual circumcisions in Denmark after 31 December 2003, because ritual circumcisions were no longer performed in Danish hospitals after that date, and surgeons in private clinics no longer reported such operations to the National Health Service Register, because public subsidies were no longer offered. Consequently, our main analysis in which all cohort members were followed from birth to their 10th birthday was limited by incomplete circumcision data, notably among boys born late in the cohort defining period 1994&#8211;2003. In one robustness analysis, we ended follow-up for ASD on 31 December 2003, to avoid any influence of misclassification of exposure status in subsequent calendar years. However, the more reliable HR estimate obtained in this robustness analysis came at the cost of reduced statistical power.

In a second robustness analysis, we evaluated in a parsimonious model the possible impact of not including any of the individually significant birth and perinatal ASD risk factors as confounders. The idea was that while the included birth and perinatal characteristics were clearly associated with ASD risk, they might not necessarily be confounders in the association of foreskin status with ASD risk.

Third, we divided the ASD outcome in two subcategories, namely infantile autism and all other ASD diagnoses to learn if infantile autism in the age group 0&#8211;4 years was particularly strongly associated with ritual circumcision.

Finally, we studied the risk of ASD between January 1994 and April 2013 among 0- to 9-year-old sisters of circumcised boys and all other girls in Denmark. We did this to explore whether observed associations of ritual circumcision with ASD risk in boys might be explained by family factors that were not adequately accounted for by stratifying on cultural background in the statistical model. Specifically, in a Cox proportional hazards model, we examined relative risk of ASD among all Danish girls in which being a full sibling (i.e. having the same mother and father) of a boy undergoing ritual circumcision was the time-dependent exposure variable shifting from unexposed to exposed on the (first) date of ritual circumcision in a brother (for sisters born before the brother&#8217;s ritual circumcision) or at birth (for sisters born later). As for the main analysis in boys, this analysis was stratified on birth year and cultural background, and adjusted for all birth and perinatal characteristics that were independent risk factors for ASD in girls (Table 1), again using age as the underlying time scale.

M. Frish, J. Simonsen, "Ritual circumcision and risk of autism spectrum disorder in 0- to 9-year-old boys: national cohort study in Denmark", J R Soc Med, DOI: 10.1177/0141076814565942

 

[lazygecko]

Americans circumcise because Dr. Kellog wanted to give boys a harder time to masturbate.

I am not making this up.

 

[ItAintEasyBeinCheesy]

STDs or autism man I better just have girls

 

[Loofy]

Americans circumcise because Dr. Kellog wanted to give boys a harder time to masturbate.

I am not making this up.

No someone else made it up.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

Americans circumcise because Dr. Kellog wanted to give boys a harder time to masturbate.

I am not making this up.

Speaking of Dr. Kellog, do you know where I can find out more about him? He literally sounds like Satan on earth, but I wonder how much of that was due to him being a product of his time.