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[SneakersSO]

Wow..you actually think everything MS has planned for Scorpio has already been announced and there are no big time launch games coming? Sorry but your first paragraph is basically useless.

No, i'm not saying they've announced everything RE: Scorpio, but if what you're implying is that MS has a stockpile of Scorpio 'launch' titles they are going to be showing, you're way, way off. They'll be showing X1 games, first & foremost. Then they'll be showing those same X1 games running at Native 4K on Scorpio.

Your problem is that you think 'Scorpio launch titles' is an actual thing, but you're not accepting the fact that the Scorpio is a stronger Xbox One, not a new system or console generation. There is not going to be Scorpio exclusive titles, ESPECIALLY at launch. MS has already said this; Spencer himself has said no Scorpio exclusive titles. Are you calling Phil Spencer a liar?

More assumptions..I'll repeat myself from my earlier post..

The Scorpio power gap from Xbone is much larger than PS4-->PS4 Pro. PS4 has won the install base and has more pull WW than Xbone, IMO the Pro was too early, too underpowered and mishandled as far as marketing hype and awareness..comparing the potential of Scorpio to Pros performance so far is lazy.

Whats going on with the PS4 Pro right now has nothing to do with 'power', and everything to do with a higher end console on the same console library as a cheaper market alternative that has already established itself. You think more power would make the PS4 games that have Pro patches be that much better? It wouldn't. This has nothing to do with power - the games were always going to look fairly similar but with higher resolution options. Fanboys are the ones who got themselves heated with bigger numbers. Scorpio is stronger, great - the games being developed are still X1 games, except they'll have higher resolution options. You're literally trying to turn the Scorpio into something its not.

But lets forget all that for a moment. Let's pretend that the Scorpio does wind up being a new console generation. Right now, consumers are at a state where they're looking for software to play, not hardware to buy. There are several market indicators for this, and these were market indicators both 1st parties observed in 2010 when they both decided to extend their respective console generations. You can't just launch consoles & expect them to sell - the market needs to be ready to adopt them. The market is not ready to buy new hardware right now. Pro sales reinforce this.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

You massively misunderstand what the Scorpio is.

No, people see the Scorpio exactly for what it is, despite MS' smoke and mirrors.

god bless scorpio

 

[Sr. Wiggles]

Will games like forza 7, call of duty have a all online together aproach between one and scorpio, how will it work?

Why would they not? This is an upgrade... everything online will work the same.

 

[Sr. Wiggles]

No, people see the Scorpio exactly for what it is, despite MS' smoke and mirrors.

And what is that?

 

[Beerman462]

Ok, that's just crazy talk. Tons of games are already running at 1440p or better on PS4 Pro. Why would a more powerful console than the PS4 Pro max out at that resolution?

It's not "maxxed", but you're not hitting 1440p 60 in more demanding titles. So you can bump the resolution a bit more and raise settings even more. You will need those higher settings at a higher resolution. I still think 720p with medium settings is the worst we'll see on XB1 if Scorpio is the target.

 

[SEGAvangelist]

It's not "maxxed", but you're not hitting 1440p 60 in more demanding titles. So you can bump the resolution a bit more and raise settings even more. You will need those higher settings at a higher resolution. I still think 720p with medium settings is the worst we'll see on XB1 if Scorpio is the target.

My guess is that Scorpio won't be the target until first party XB1 games are phased out, so I doubt we'll see many 720p games. We haven't since launch for the most part, especially with dynamic resolutions becoming more popular on XB1.

 

[SneakersSO]

Will games like forza 7, call of duty have a all online together aproach between one and scorpio, how will it work?

Yes, ofc - this is how it works now with PC, with Pro & PS4. Its one of the mandates of mid-generation console revisions; they're the same version, just running on different performance specs depending on the machine that is running it. An X1 game is also a Scorpio game. Its the same disc. You just put it into a different machine.

 

[Netherscourge]

So, will developer houses have to hire PORT teams or SCALING teams to get a single game to run on 3 different pieces of hardware? (XB1, XB1S, Scorpio)?

 

[SEGAvangelist]

So, will developer houses have to hire PORT teams or SCALING teams to get a single game to run on 3 different pieces of hardware? (XB1, XB1S, Scorpio)?

No. They just target XB1 and XB1S get a slight advantage boost. They also do a Scorpio mode just like they currently do a PS4 Pro mode. Luckily many games for XB1 have dynamic resolutions, so Scorpio will likely provide the boost needed for these games to be at max resolution most of the time even without a patch. I'm curious to see how Halo 5 will look on Scorpio especially.

 

[Hiro_Kunimi_80]

Cause the CPU is an immense bottleneck in the APU architecture that both of these consoles share, and unless MS changes the CPU to be a completely stronger one, which would further both increase the MSRP of the Scorpio & complexity in development when creating a Scorpio branch of an X1 build, then they're going to be sticking to a higher clocked version of the same CPU, at the most.

CPU on Scorpio will change as well for sure.

Not only because Microsoft team knows that it's one of the main bottleneck in order to maximize the experience at 2K/4K resolution level and they will allocate some budget to upgrade the cpu too..

but also there's no way that AMD loose the opportunity to push their new technology on Scorpio on the very year they are try to get back vs Intel with ZEN architecture, starting with CPU Desktop / server class in Q1-Q2 , and by a strange coincidence release new APU and mobile cpu class during Q3-Q4


scorpio won't feature just a more powerful gpu, but heavily change also on ram type and amount, bandwidth and cpu.

Scorpio will be , without a doubt , an Xbox4 with back compatibility

if this business model will work on the market, ( and I hope it will, because keeping the same hardware for 5/6 years it's silly considering how fast the industry is changing as performance level nowadays ) we will see a 3 years cycle of hardware upgrade, with back compatibility scaling down the graphic level to previous platform.

 

[Ambient80]

No, i'm not saying they've announced everything RE: Scorpio, but if what you're implying is that MS has a stockpile of Scorpio 'launch' titles they are going to be showing, you're way, way off. They'll be showing X1 games, first & foremost. Then they'll be showing those same X1 games running at Native 4K on Scorpio.

Your problem is that you think 'Scorpio launch titles' is an actual thing, but you're not accepting the fact that the Scorpio is a stronger Xbox One, not a new system or console generation. There is not going to be Scorpio exclusive titles, ESPECIALLY at launch. MS has already said this; Spencer himself has said no Scorpio exclusive titles. Are you calling Phil Spencer a liar?

I don't think Phil is lying, but I wouldn't be surprised if both Sony and MS ended up changing those policies and there eventually will be titles exclusive to Scorpio and PS4 Pro. I feel like, particularly with Scorpio but also with the PS4P, something will eventually have to give if a developer wants to fully take advantage of the new hardware. If not, then we're paying for power that won't actually be used. It would be like if the non-pro/Scorpio consoles of this gen were forced to cater to the PS(3)60. I guess that's my main concern. Are we going to be buying consoles that generally won't ever be really maxed out in terms of performance because they're being held back by lesser hardware? For most of the casual audience they probably won't notice as much, but for more hardcore enthusiasts it could become an issue.

And I'll admit, I could be reading this incorrectly or be missing some information. If so please correct me.

EDIT: Correct Better to lesser in second paragraph, sorry if that confused anyone.

 

[tapedeck]

No, i'm not saying they've announced everything RE: Scorpio, but if what you're implying is that MS has a stockpile of Scorpio 'launch' titles they are going to be showing, you're way, way off. They'll be showing X1 games, first & foremost. Then they'll be showing those same X1 games running at Native 4K on Scorpio.

Your problem is that you think 'Scorpio launch titles' is an actual thing, but you're not accepting the fact that the Scorpio is a stronger Xbox One, not a new system or console generation. There is not going to be Scorpio exclusive titles, ESPECIALLY at launch. MS has already said this; Spencer himself has said no Scorpio exclusive titles. Are you calling Phil Spencer a liar?

So you basically are doubling down on your assumptions but this time in more detail..ok.

For the record, YES I believe MS will have some big game announcements for Scorpio (gimped versions on Xbone) that will move hardware. None of that goes against anything Phil has said so I'm confused by your dramatics there but whatever.

Whats going on with the PS4 Pro right now has nothing to do with 'power', and everything to do with a higher end console on the same console library as a cheaper market alternative that has already established itself. You think more power would make the PS4 games that have Pro patches be that much better? It wouldn't. This has nothing to do with power - the games were always going to look fairly similar but with higher resolution options. Fanboys are the ones who got themselves heated with bigger numbers. Scorpio is stronger, great - the games being developed are still X1 games, except they'll have higher resolution options. You're literally trying to turn the Scorpio into something its not.

So your entire argument is the Scorpio will be viewed by the market AND by developers the exact same as the Pro despite all the differences I already pointed out..I just flat out think you're wrong but it's a useless debate cause opinions.

But lets forget all that for a moment. Let's pretend that the Scorpio does wind up being a new console generation. Right now, consumers are at a state where they're looking for software to play, not hardware to buy. There are several market indicators for this, and these were market indicators both 1st parties observed in 2010 when they both decided to extend their respective console generations. You can't just launch consoles & expect them to sell - the market needs to be ready to adopt them. The market is not ready to buy new hardware right now. Pro sales reinforce this.

See above you just keep repeating yourself and doubling and tripling down on your crystal ball. I'm at work way too busy to give detailed responses right now but I'll come back later lol.

 

[SneakersSO]

I don't think Phil is lying, but I wouldn't be surprised if both Sony and MS ended up changing those policies and there eventually will be titles exclusive to Scorpio and PS4 Pro. I feel like, particularly with Scorpio but also with the PS4P, something will eventually have to give if a developer wants to fully take advantage of the new hardware. If not, then we're paying for power that won't actually be used. It would be like if the non-pro/Scorpio consoles of this gen were forced to cater to the PS(3)60. I guess that's my main concern. Are we going to be buying consoles that generally won't ever be really maxed out in terms of performance because they're being held back by better hardware? For most of the casual audience they probably won't notice as much, but for more hardcore enthusiasts it could become an issue.

And I'll admit, I could be reading this incorrectly or be missing some information. If so please correct me.

Something will have to give if developers want to take advantage of the hardware, but its not like devs are some force that are COMPELLED to take full advantage of the latest & greatest specs. In actuality, what we see in the PC space is that devs are often encouraged to target as broad of a spec base for maximum potential return of investment.

The fact is, we are paying for power, and it will be used towards the things that require the most power - namely, resolution & VR. Notice that resolution, particularly 4K resolution (native 4K for the Scorpio) is one of the chief things that get brought up when these machines were first being talked about. Truth is, we can't just 'use' more power - we have to use that power on something. Higher-fidelty assets, textures, higher polygon counts - it all varies. The one thing that does happen when these things go up though is that production costs balloon. It takes way more artists & animators to fully use more hardware power because we need to create more higher-fidelity visuals in order to utilize them. So, devs aren't necessarily in a rush to increase their budgets just so they can compete on a visual level.

Hardcore enthusiasts have an outlet if they want to buy games that utilize their hardware more fully, and even then, its still not being fully utilized; PC.

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

The problem with the CPU is that there is only really two choices available for an APU from AMD. Zen has a tonne of question marks around it, namely price, die size, thermals, availability. Collectively those could put it out of reach which leaves one option. A Jaguar variant.

A lot of people seem convinced the Scorpio will have Zen, but I would say the return of the Jaguar is much more likely. MS have spoken several times about the hardware of the Scorpio, not once have they mentioned an improved CPU.

 

[Sword Of Doom]

Why not just call it a generation and move on? They're still selling a lot of XB1's and it kind of sucks for those consumers.

I personally would much rather have it this way because I know Sony is trying to do the balancing act with the Pro and it really isn't helping that system. But consumers should probably know that the hardware they're buying now might be basically abandoned in less than a year.

 

[SneakersSO]

So you basically are doubling down on your assumptions but this time in more detail..ok.

For the record, YES I believe MS will have some big game announcements for Scorpio (gimped versions on Xbone) that will move hardware. None of that goes against anything Phil has said so I'm confused by your dramatics there but whatever.

So your entire argument is the Scorpio will be viewed by the market AND by developers the exact same as the Pro despite all the differences I already pointed out..I just flat out think you're wrong but it's a useless debate cause opinions.

See above you just keep repeating yourself and doubling and tripling down on your crystal ball. I'm at work way too busy to give detailed responses right now but I'll come back later lol.

The only difference you have pointed out is "Uh, the Scorpio is stronger than the Pro", which isn't as big a difference to the larger market reality when the games are going to basically look the same. Its more power.

What the heck sort of visual difference do you think you're going to see in a game that is on Scorpio versus X1, outside of resolution? You think you're going to see a generational difference? Let me ask you - have you ever looked at a cross-generation game (think CoD Ghost, Titanfall 1, Assassin's Creed Black Flag) and thought "Man, I can totally see the difference". I bet you you haven't, and thats because the entire asset library is being created against the lowest common denominator, which is the last-gen version.

As a developer myself, I already see the Scorpio as basically a high-end spec for X1 titles. Thats all it is. Maybe I fit in the ultra settings for my PC build onto the Scorpio runtime file, but thats it. Why would I spend more time & resources to better utilize the Scorpio when its going to be a market minority compared to the X1 & PS4? Thats where i'm making my money and selling the most copies. It will take YEARS before the Scorpio comes close to either the X1 or PS4's marketshare, if it ever does - why increase my budget to utilize it if barely anyone is going to be enjoying it?

Whats a big announcement for Scorpio to you? Halo 6 in 2018 at native 4k? You think thats gonna move hardware, especially if its launching on PC? Forza 7 in fall 2017, with it running on Scorpio in Native 4K - yeah, thats gonna drive hardware sales through the roof. So I have to assume you think MS has a pocket studio squirreled away that we don't know about working on a Scorpio exclusive that just blows away the X1 version, even though its still an X1 game. This is not happening.

 

[SEGAvangelist]

Why not just call it a generation and move on? They're still selling a lot of XB1's and it kind of sucks for those consumers.

I personally would much rather have it this way because I know Sony is trying to do the balancing act with the Pro and it really isn't helping that system. But consumers should probably know that the hardware they're buying now might be basically abandoned in less than a year.

They would piss off millions of customers and their games would sell less copies if exclusive to Scorpio. A new generation makes no business sense at this point.

 

[Samurai G0SU]

wait.. people are still holding on to a 'new gen' without any thought about back/forward compat with xbox one?

Far as im concerned with MS - generations are over and everything playing right now on the xbox one will play on ANY hardware (within xbox consoles) moving forward because of SOFTWARE features embedded into windows10/dx12 console version.

Some tech wizard can prove me wrong.

With that in mind - Xbox games will always stay with you, is what im understanding. Their attempt to enable bc with the 360 shows this motive to have your xbox library with you no matter how many years in the future, even with newer hardware.

I also cant wait to hear more on how devs will develop for the scorpio edition vs how it compares to the xbox one version

 

[ChosenPredator]

wait.. people are still holding on to a 'new gen' without any thought about back/forward compat with xbox one?

Far as im concerned with MS - generations are over and everything playing right now on the xbox one will play on ANY hardware (within xbox consoles) moving forward because of SOFTWARE features embedded into windows10/dx12 console version.

Some tech wizard can prove me wrong.

With that in mind - Xbox games will always stay with you, is what im understanding. Their attempt to enable bc with the 360 shows this motive to have your xbox library with you no matter how many years in the future, even with newer hardware.

I also cant wait to hear more on how devs will develop for the scorpio edition vs how it compares to the xbox one version

I'm guessing our games will come with us since we can play some OG 360 titles, I'm waiting for scorpio to make the transition, i kind of like the PCX infusion.

 

[KageMaru]

Considering the biggest differences in most games are that the Xbone versions run at lower resolution, I wouldn't call it taking advantage of ps4 more than getting around the Xbone's limitations.

What's most likely is that Scorpio games will run at higher res than their Pro equivalents, but to most people the difference would be negligible and wouldn't justify the scorpio's higher price tag

Running games at a higher resolution is taking advantage of the additional power. We sometimes also see slightly better shadow resolution or motion blur but it's not like most of the developers are holding back the PS4 version to keep it closer to the XBO version.

 

[cakefoo]

I feel like this could go well if the Scorpio is able to play all of the games of its successor. Release a more powerful console every 4 years, each console gets 8 years of support.

 

[friz898]

this, really.

Hadn't considered it that way. Well, it sounds like it will be enough of a difference that it could be a "new gen" .....maybe? sorta? Now my head hurts.

But really, if it is coming out a full year from today'ish..then well what is that 3-4 years or something from xb1 release? That is a new gen somewhat, I mean, Nintendo does it with short gens sometimes, and didn't the 360 follow the original pretty fast and come out super early to start the new gen of it's time?

 

[Bits N Pieces]

I've asked this before but never got an answer so ill ask again, what is the minimum CPU requirements needed to output VR at a level that could support Vive or Oculus?

VR is one of the differentiators' between Scorpio and XB1, so what do you need to run high fidelity VR or whatever the buzz word they used was?

 

[Sydle]

I've asked this before but never got an answer so ill ask again, what is the minimum CPU requirements needed to output VR at a level that could support Vive or Oculus?

VR is one of the differentiators' between Scorpio and XB1, so what do you need to run high fidelity VR or whatever the buzz word they used was?

I asked this in another thread and the answer was clearly an i5 class CPU, but it does bear repeating that MS has not officially said they're supporting VR with those devices specifically.

 

[SneakersSO]

Hadn't considered it that way. Well, it sounds like it will be enough of a difference that it could be a "new gen" .....maybe? sorta? Now my head hurts.

But really, if it is coming out a full year from today'ish..then well what is that 3-4 years or something from xb1 release? That is a new gen somewhat, I mean, Nintendo does it with short gens sometimes, and didn't the 360 follow the original pretty fast and come out super early to start the new gen of it's time?

I mean, it isn't a new gen unless the manufacturer says it is and intends for it to be. Nintendo shouldn't really be brought when talking about the market & business model Sony & MS operate in, since they have an entirely different gameplan and business strategy.

The 360 came out fast, but there are a few key differences there, first one being that the audience was looking for a stronger hardware set in 2005. There were market indicators for it as early as '04. And the 360's early launch wasn't really a 'good' idea until Sony dropped the ball with the PS3 the way that it did.

The market is in a wholly different place right now. Experiences aren't being held back due to lack of power, even on the PS4/X1, and consumers are being asked to invest more in their hardware purchases now than they were in the PS2/Xbox days, so there is more of an audience attachment built up with the machines we have now than there were then. Consumers, devs, and the market just aren't ready to move on, in terms of a generations I mean, from the PS4/X1, and probably won't be until 2019/2020 at the earliest.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

The Pro requires a PS4 version, Scorpio doesn't require and Xbone version. I guarantee we'll see Scorpio only games but not PS4 Pro only games.

This is flat out wrong.

For at least the first year and a half we won't be seeing Scorprio exclusives outside VR games. I hope we do, but we won't. At most, youll see games planned for a 2019 release being developed exclusively for Scorpio during 2018. I think 2019 is the earliest we see a Scorprio exclusive game released.

 

[Cartho]

The problem with the CPU is that there is only really two choices available for an APU from AMD. Zen has a tonne of question marks around it, namely price, die size, thermals, availability. Collectively those could put it out of reach which leaves one option. A Jaguar variant.

A lot of people seem convinced the Scorpio will have Zen, but I would say the return of the Jaguar is much more likely. MS have spoken several times about the hardware of the Scorpio, not once have they mentioned an improved CPU.

This. ^

I really feel like people are setting themselves up for disappointment with all this talk of Zen. AMD themselves have said that semi custom zen based chips will start properly becoming available in 2018 - that's after Scorpio is set to launch. I expect Zen is being looked at for the PS5 or whatever the future Xbox might be, but I find the idea that they will have managed to get it into Scorpio already very unlikely.

Even if they managed to have semi custom Zen SoCs ready by the later half of 2017, the design of scorpio would surely have to have been totally nailed down by then. It's not like they can have a semi custom, Zen based APU be ready to use in August and then have a system fully built around it, built, tested extensively and ready to be mass produced and shipped for November - it's just never going to happen.

I reckon, for Zen to be in Scorpio, it would need to be ready pretty much now. That way they would be able to get it properly running to allow testing, software implementation and manufacture. As AMD's CEO said earlier this year that they would be working closely with Sony and Microsoft to develop "new, custom design SoCs" which would be ready "in 2018".

I'd put money on Scorpio using Jaguar, or some variant of it. In addition, as some people have said, if Scorpio really was using a very advanced new CPU architecture then MS would be shouting it from the rooftops. We've not heard a single thing about the CPU in all of the discussions on it since it was first announced. Unless MisterXmedia is to be believed and we've got another Xbox 1 situation, where they had a VASTLY more powerful system but deliberately didn't tell anyone about it because they didn't want to.... erm... scare their competitors.... Or something. /s

 

[2+2=5]

Why is it that hard for some people to understand that the relantionship between xb1 and scorpio is like the one between a weak pc and strong pc? Games evolve and eventually stop running on older pcs, that's what will happen with xb1 and scorpio, it doesn't look like that the compatibility with weak pcs is stopping pc games to look immensely better than console games right?

That's an immensely good thing, for too much time console developers capitalized on incompatibility between consoles forcing people to buy all the consoles from the exact same manufacturer while pcs with completely different hardwares can play the same games.

 

[Ponn]

The only difference you have pointed out is "Uh, the Scorpio is stronger than the Pro", which isn't as big a difference to the larger market reality when the games are going to basically look the same. Its more power.

What the heck sort of visual difference do you think you're going to see in a game that is on Scorpio versus X1, outside of resolution? You think you're going to see a generational difference? Let me ask you - have you ever looked at a cross-generation game (think CoD Ghost, Titanfall 1, Assassin's Creed Black Flag) and thought "Man, I can totally see the difference". I bet you you haven't, and thats because the entire asset library is being created against the lowest common denominator, which is the last-gen version.

As a developer myself, I already see the Scorpio as basically a high-end spec for X1 titles. Thats all it is. Maybe I fit in the ultra settings for my PC build onto the Scorpio runtime file, but thats it. Why would I spend more time & resources to better utilize the Scorpio when its going to be a market minority compared to the X1 & PS4? Thats where i'm making my money and selling the most copies. It will take YEARS before the Scorpio comes close to either the X1 or PS4's marketshare, if it ever does - why increase my budget to utilize it if barely anyone is going to be enjoying it?

Whats a big announcement for Scorpio to you? Halo 6 in 2018 at native 4k? You think thats gonna move hardware, especially if its launching on PC? Forza 7 in fall 2017, with it running on Scorpio in Native 4K - yeah, thats gonna drive hardware sales through the roof. So I have to assume you think MS has a pocket studio squirreled away that we don't know about working on a Scorpio exclusive that just blows away the X1 version, even though its still an X1 game. This is not happening.

Who are you trying to fool with this shit? The only difference is in resolution? How many Pro threads have we had already denying the only benefit is resolution, and Scorpio is going to somehow be worse than PS4 Pro in other benefits with the added hardware boost? You are making it seem like its a hardware thing when its the same question being asked all along, which platform will devs make their baseline. Or more accurately which one will they be pressured into. Try posting this in one of those PS4 Pro threads that try and convince people without 4k tvs the benefits and see what happens. As MS and Sony get more and more people to buy into these upgrades they are going to be demanding more and more from the dev's for return on their investment. Do you honestly think the gamers that buy these systems are ever going to be satisfied with just a resolution bump?

It's already amazing how these 1.5 consoles have created these dynamically opposed talking points for discussions based on how people want to frame their argument.

"These consoles are just resolution bumps, OG box owners aren't missing anything"

"Guffaw, there is so much more to the Pro version than just a resolution bump educate yourself fool!"

One of these talking points is going to become louder and louder and more demanding. I give you one guess which one it is. The charade is not going to last for long, not when MS and Sony want to push consoles.

 

[Fox_Mulder]

Xbox one was a mistake?

 

[SneakersSO]

Who are you trying to fool with this shit? The only difference is in resolution? How many Pro threads have we had already denying the only benefit is resolution, and Scorpio is going to somehow be worse than PS4 Pro in other benefits with the added hardware boost? You are making it seem like its a hardware thing when its the same question being asked all along, which platform will devs make their baseline. Or more accurately which one will they be pressured into. Try posting this in one of those PS4 Pro threads that try and convince people without 4k tvs the benefits and see what happens. As MS and Sony get more and more people to buy into these upgrades they are going to be demanding more and more from the dev's for return on their investment. Do you honestly think the gamers that buy these systems are ever going to be satisfied with just a resolution bump?

It's already amazing how these 1.5 consoles have created these dynamically opposed talking points for discussions based on how people want to frame their argument.

"These consoles are just resolution bumps, OG box owners aren't missing anything"

"Guffaw, there is so much more to the Pro version than just a resolution bump educate yourself fool!"

One of these talking points is going to become louder and louder and more demanding. I give you one guess which one it is. The charade is not going to last for long, not when MS and Sony want to push consoles.

There are several people, Pro owners included, both in press & on this forum, who have gone into Pro discussions and made this same point I am making - that outside of the spec difference, the changes weren't that noticeable outside of IQ & resolution. Certainly not when it comes to asset quality or fidelity. Okay, the hair in FFXV looks a little bit better, we have a some better floor textures in certain areas - but the biggest difference noted seems to always come back to resolution & IQ.

In fact, current discussion is that the biggest difference in IQ isn't even the resolution bump, its HDR capabilities, which both baseline PS4 & X1S (does default X1 offer it too?) offer out of the box. And you think Sony & MS are going to pressure a developer into supporting their box?

Where does either 1st party have the power to pull a stunt like forcing embedded support for high-end spec that is more than a resolution/IQ bump. "Increase your budget and create a build of your game that caters to our high-end machine, which has a fraction of the audience our low-end machine does, or we'll not let you release your game on any branch of our platform!" Sounds like a really solid pressure plan to me. /s

The gamers that buy these systems are going to primarily be the most hardcore audience for either platform. When we start looking at how many natural console advantages the Pro seemingly tosses out the window when compared to the PS4, its sales relative to the PS4 become way more clearer. The audience that cares about power above all else isn't gaming on consoles - they're on PC. Scorpio & Pro don't change that, not even in the slightest. If you're a fanboy and see the higher TF count & drool, while not considering the reality of both the market & how tiered console support has fared in the past or of cross-generational development & the results they yield, then the disappointment is pretty much of their own creation. Especially when you consider that both Sony & MS touted higher resolutions first & foremost when discussing their respective higher-spec machines.

 

[Yautja_Warrior]

No gamer left behind....... But games might look like crap on the old system though.....

MS would be better off being silent for now and focus on building the damn thing before talking loads of PR crap, making sure they get it right, as they don't want another crappy launch on their hands.

 

[Ponn]

There are several people, Pro owners included, both in press & on this forum, who have gone into Pro discussions and made this same point I am making - that outside of the spec difference, the changes weren't that noticeable outside of IQ & resolution. Certainly not when it comes to asset quality or fidelity. Okay, the hair in FFXV looks a little bit better, we have a some better floor textures in certain areas - but the biggest difference noted seems to always come back to resolution & IQ.

In fact, current discussion is that the biggest difference in IQ isn't even the resolution bump, its HDR capabilities, which both baseline PS4 & X1S (does default X1 offer it too?) offer out of the box. And you think Sony & MS are going to pressure a developer into supporting their box?

Where does either 1st party have the power to pull a stunt like forcing embedded support for high-end spec that is more than a resolution/IQ bump. "Increase your budget and create a build of your game that caters to our high-end machine, which has a fraction of the audience our low-end machine does, or we'll not let you release your game on any branch of our platform!" Sounds like a really solid pressure plan to me. /s

The gamers that buy these systems are going to primarily be the most hardcore audience for either platform. When we start looking at how many natural console advantages the Pro seemingly tosses out the window when compared to the PS4, its sales relative to the PS4 become way more clearer. The audience that cares about power above all else isn't gaming on consoles - they're on PC. Scorpio & Pro don't change that, not even in the slightest. If you're a fanboy and see the higher TF count & drool, while not considering the reality of both the market & how tiered console support has fared in the past or of cross-generational development & the results they yield, then the disappointment is pretty much of their own creation. Especially when you consider that both Sony & MS touted higher resolutions first & foremost when discussing their respective higher-spec machines.

Everything you just said is on the devs though, not the hardware. Dev's that don't want to invest in the difference are going to try their damndest to keep the difference just at resolution (and I noticed you are already adding IQ to your argument now). My point is Sony and MS pushing these consoles is not going to be compatible with this attitude, somethings going to give. At the heart of it we are in agreement but i'm not liking the deflection from it being on the devs or that they aren't making a choice here. They are going to be forced sooner or later to show their hand one way or the other. When MS shows off an exclusive for Scorpio or at least a 1st party title programmed first and foremost for the Scorpio that is going to set gamers who bought into these machines off. People, gamers, are not going to invest money into these consoles and be silent about differences, not in this day and age. And neither MS nor Sony are going to do much to defend 3rd party devs besides a canned response of "We are not forcing our partners to utilize the extra power. That is up to them. Go talk to them." MS and Sony want to turn the console market into a PC type market so something is going to give.

 

[Aztechnology]

I know this has been said every way to Sunday but...

People on GAF need to get it through their head that unless something drastic changes like we run into a huge wall for improvements in hardware (Moore's law may have been broken but most consumer devices still have a long way to catch up to the capabilities we have with current fab etc.) That the long console iterations are over. The market itself has changed as well, PC is driving things forward on the top end and they can't risk falling too far behind or mobile will catch them. Console makers want to stay on the cutting edge as well.

If you're going to buy a console, expect it to handle and play stuff you want right now. Buying a $300 console and expecting it to give you "the best experience" for a the better part of a decade is a fool's errand. Just like building a PC to handle current games shouldn't be expected to run everything great in 2-4 years. The PC at least will handle everything behind it and a good amount forward and is modular though.

 

[SneakersSO]

Everything you just said is on the devs though, not the hardware. Dev's that don't want to invest in the difference are going to try their damndest to keep the difference just at resolution (and I noticed you are already adding IQ to your argument now). My point is Sony and MS pushing these consoles is not going to be compatible with this attitude, somethings going to give. At the heart of it we are in agreement but i'm not liking the deflection from it being on the devs or that they aren't making a choice here. They are going to be forced sooner or later to show their hand one way or the other. When MS shows off an exclusive for Scorpio or at least a 1st party title programmed first and foremost for the Scorpio that is going to set gamers who bought into these machines off. People, gamers, are not going to invest money into these consoles and be silent about differences, not in this day and age. And neither MS nor Sony are going to do much to defend 3rd party devs besides a canned response of "We are not forcing our partners to utilize the extra power. That is up to them. Go talk to them." MS and Sony want to turn the console market into a PC type market so something is going to give.

Devs aren't going to want to invest in the difference, as you say, cause there isn't really anything in it for them - its more work for not any extra money. Their main sellers are always going to be the PS4 & X1 versions. If the Scorpio doesn't sell gangbusters out the gate, heck if its sales pace isn't at what a normal console would be, its even less incentive to fully support it. And heck, unless the Scorpio gets a non-Jaguar CPU, it isn't even like the primary bottleneck is out of the way either.

People are going to be screaming about native 4K vs. Sony's Checkerboard rendering solution, but the primary consoles that'll be sold will remain the PS4 & the X1, despite what the fanboys are screaming about. MS & Sony would never throw 3rd party under the bus, are you kidding me? MS, from day 1, has been specific in saying they want devs to utilize the power however they want.

If, in say, 2019 or 2020, when maybe the Scorpio has caught the X1's marketshare and MS has a strong enough reasons to build a huge game, expenses and all, to take full advantage of the Scorpio & declare it this 1st party title the 1st Scorpio exclusive, then people will finally take notice. But that is so far down the road and requires the Scorpio to do so well on the market that, at that point, MS will most likely opt to declare a new piece of hardware that they will openly refer to as the new generation leader, and that'll be the benchmark. Sony will probably be exploring PS5 options around that time too.

And no, Sony doesn't want to turn this into a PC market. They've openly said they still believe in generations, and I imagine that console market sacrifices both the Pro & Scorpio is going to present to the casual buyer is going to make this mid-generation upgrade a 1 & done for both parties. I don't see either machine taking off, and the only people who are gonna give a shit are the fanboys online, while everyone else continues to play their PS4 & X1 and call it a gen.

I know this has been said every way to Sunday but...

People on GAF need to get it through their head that unless something drastic changes like we run into a huge wall for improvements in hardware (Moore's law may have been broken but most consumer devices still have a long way to catch up to the capabilities we have with current fab etc.) That the long console iterations are over. The market itself has changed as well, PC is driving things forward on the top end and they can't risk falling too far behind or mobile will catch them. Console makers want to stay on the cutting edge as well.

If you're going to buy a console, expect it to handle and play stuff you want right now. Buying a $300 console and expecting it to give you "the best experience" for a the better part of a decade is a fool's errand. Just like building a PC to handle current games shouldn't be expected to run everything great in 2-4 years. The PC at least will handle everything behind it and a good amount forward and is modular though.

What you're saying - the whole best experience thing - isn't why the mass market consumers buy consoles. The mass market buys consoles cause they want something that is both cheap and easily plugs into their main entertainment unit, and gives them the least amount of hassle in order to play their games. Its the no.1 reason consoles still exist, in a market where someone can buy/build a PC for an equivalent price to a current console & get equivalent or better performance. PCs are a separate experience altogether, and most households are not only moving away from purchasing PCs, most of them are purrchasing more mobile devices that can stream to their entertainment center. PCs are becoming an enthusiast market, at least at home, which is fine, but the mass market consumer who still enjoys the AAA game experience wants something that can be hassle-less compared to PC, and thats where consoles come in.

In many respects, the Pro & potentially the Scorpio, sacrifice this streamlined convenience & give users this huge amount of rendering options tailored to what your home set is. And its in there, in that loss of just plug & play, that I feel the Pro & potentially the Scorpio will get left behind. Cause if you have these consoles and you're being told "You only get the most out of them if you have the RIGHT kind of 4K" or "You only get the most out of these machines if you have the RIGHT kind of HDR", and suddenly the consumer is gonna go eh, i'l buy the cheaper option that plays all the big name games.

 

[PFD]

This sounds terrible, why would they even say that

 

[Papacheeks]

Devs aren't going to want to invest in the difference, as you say, cause there isn't really anything in it for them - its more work for not any extra money. Their main sellers are always going to be the PS4 & X1 versions. If the Scorpio doesn't sell gangbusters out the gate, heck if its sales pace isn't at what a normal console would be, its even less incentive to fully support it. And heck, unless the Scorpio gets a non-Jaguar CPU, it isn't even like the primary bottleneck is out of the way either.

People are going to be screaming about native 4K vs. Sony's Checkerboard rendering solution, but the primary consoles that'll be sold will remain the PS4 & the X1, despite what the fanboys are screaming about. MS & Sony would never throw 3rd party under the bus, are you kidding me? MS, from day 1, has been specific in saying they want devs to utilize the power however they want.

If, in say, 2019 or 2020, when maybe the Scorpio has caught the X1's marketshare and MS has a strong enough reasons to build a huge game, expenses and all, to take full advantage of the Scorpio & declare it this 1st party title the 1st Scorpio exclusive, then people will finally take notice. But that is so far down the road and requires the Scorpio to do so well on the market that, at that point, MS will most likely opt to declare a new piece of hardware that they will openly refer to as the new generation leader, and that'll be the benchmark. Sony will probably be exploring PS5 options around that time too.

And no, Sony doesn't want to turn this into a PC market. They've openly said they still believe in generations, and I imagine that console market sacrifices both the Pro & Scorpio is going to present to the casual buyer is going to make this mid-generation upgrade a 1 & done for both parties. I don't see either machine taking off, and the only people who are gonna give a shit are the fanboys online, while everyone else continues to play their PS4 & X1 and call it a gen.



What you're saying - the whole best experience thing - isn't why the mass market consumers buy consoles. The mass market buys consoles cause they want something that is both cheap and easily plugs into their main entertainment unit, and gives them the least amount of hassle in order to play their games. Its the no.1 reason consoles still exist, in a market where someone can buy/build a PC for an equivalent price to a current console & get equivalent or better performance. PCs are a separate experience altogether, and most households are not only moving away from purchasing PCs, most of them are purrchasing more mobile devices that can stream to their entertainment center. PCs are becoming an enthusiast market, at least at home, which is fine, but the mass market consumer who still enjoys the AAA game experience wants something that can be hassle-less compared to PC, and thats where consoles come in.

In many respects, the Pro & potentially the Scorpio, sacrifice this streamlined convenience & give users this huge amount of rendering options tailored to what your home set is. And its in there, in that loss of just plug & play, that I feel the Pro & potentially the Scorpio will get left behind. Cause if you have these consoles and you're being told "You only get the most out of them if you have the RIGHT kind of 4K" or "You only get the most out of these machines if you have the RIGHT kind of HDR", and suddenly the consumer is gonna go eh, i'l buy the cheaper option that plays all the big name games.

So what I was saying back when these were leaked, then got dog piled by people because I voiced what these would do that no one but the hardcore IQ whores care about. I mean look at how many games fully are utilizing the pro. It's all like you said mostly resolution, and image quality that we see. I'm not seeing tons of effort in making a game run at 60fps. Minus maybe a few outliers like Rise of the tomb raider.

Pretty much called that PRO is mainly for selling VR and 4k tv's on Sony's side. Scorpio is also for VR mainly oculus and overcoming the power gap they currently have with base PS4.

 

[Hawk269]

Why is it that hard for some people to understand that the relantionship between xb1 and scorpio is like the one between a weak pc and strong pc? Games evolve and eventually stop running on older pcs, that's what will happen with xb1 and scorpio, it doesn't look like that the compatibility with weak pcs is stopping pc games to look immensely better than console games right?

That's an immensely good thing, for too much time console developers capitalized on incompatibility between consoles forcing people to buy all the consoles from the exact same manufacturer while pcs with completely different hardwares can play the same games.

This so much. I don't get how many posters do not understand how PC game developers and Console game developers that make games on PC make it to where the game scales based on the hardware. It is something so simple to understand that it blows me away that people can not comprehend this. Games will be made and the game will scale between the Xbox One and the Xbox Scorpio. Much like many games right now.

 

[SEGAvangelist]

This sounds terrible, why would they even say that

You realize this isn't anyone from MS that said this, right? It's just an indie developer making a what if type comment.

 

[Aztechnology]

So what I was saying back when these were leaked, then got dog piled by people because I voiced what these would do that no one but the hardcore IQ whores care about. I mean look at how many games fully are utilizing the pro. It's all like you said mostly resolution, and image quality that we see. I'm not seeing tons of effort in making a game run at 60fps. Minus maybe a few outliers like Rise of the tomb raider.

Pretty much called that PRO is mainly for selling VR and 4k tv's on Sony's side. Scorpio is also for VR mainly oculus and overcoming the power gap they currently have with base PS4.

Pretty much every PS4 Pro game at this point has been a retroactive or last minute update. You'll see more complex changes ahead. If this was the case then PC would just have one universal setting as well with just some resolution differences etc.

Why is it that hard for some people to understand that the relantionship between xb1 and scorpio is like the one between a weak pc and strong pc? Games evolve and eventually stop running on older pcs, that's what will happen with xb1 and scorpio, it doesn't look like that the compatibility with weak pcs is stopping pc games to look immensely better than console games right?

That's an immensely good thing, for too much time console developers capitalized on incompatibility between consoles forcing people to buy all the consoles from the exact same manufacturer while pcs with completely different hardwares can play the same games.

This was exactly my point, I've argued this back during the meltdown on GAF when the Pro was first announced and I'm still arguing it now. It's like a Sisyphean feat to get a lot of people on GAF to think about this logically.