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[Papacheeks]

Lmao. There's tons of positive impressions of demos of games already out there that looks and run great by published media sites since before we even knew neo was a thing. But when one rumor shows up that "dev" says VR games are going to run like garbage among all the other positive and mixed impressions you've somehow made the "no-brainer" post. Get over yourself

Yea, and they are demos? Not retail final software. And those PS4's could in fact not be retail units.

Also a demo is tailored usually to portray the best working parts of your game. Who's to say different sections of said game has frame rate or other issues when they release.

Halo 5 demoed very well, but when digital foundry got it's hands on the final code, we found out how intense the dynamic resolution scaling was, and how enemy animation frame rate was halved which was really a distraction while playing.

Look at Just cause 3, game looked fine at shows and in high quality footage, and then it released and was a shit show frame rate wise.

Don't take everything at face value until it's actually in consumer hands.

 

[Matt]

Yea, and they are demos? Not retail final software. And those PS4's could in fact not be retail units.

Also a demo is tailored usually to portray the best working parts of your game. Who's to say different sections of said game has frame rate or other issues when they release.

Halo 5 demoed very well, but when digital foundry got it's hands on the final code, we found out how intense the dynamic resolution scaling was, and how enemy animation frame rate was halved which was really a distraction while playing.

Look at Just cause 3, game looked fine at shows and in high quality footage, and then it released and was a shit show frame rate wise.

Don't take everything at face value until it's actually in consumer hands.

Dude, no. No one is demoing on special super-PS4s, and VR games have pretty strict performance requirements mandated by Sony.

What people have been seeing is what they are going to get.

 

[gunslikewhoa]

Then why even make a thread that most knew from the beginning to be click bait? ANd then condemn those who comment on the click bait title?

It's almost like the person who created the thread and the people doing the condemning are different people...

Regardless,maybe people who only read titles before posting deserve to be condemned.

 

[EventHorizon]

yeah, if it were about the tracking it should have been specified.

i really think the dev was being too general, and actually just meant the graphics potential, which is hard to refute. but to say that NEO is some kind of "oh shit" reactionary mission seems completely made up. considering how long it takes to plan and engineer new hardware the timeline doesn't fit. PSVR games would have been barely functioning around the time they decided to make NEO.

I'm just trying to be fair and cover all the bases. I could image a developer for a hand tracking game like Job Simulator or Hover Junkers trying to make their game work for the PS4 + PSVR and getting frustrated causing them to make a generic statement saying "VR on the PS4 was awful". I'd also imagine that they'd be under a NDA so couldn't get more specific than that. I'm not saying that is what is happening but that it fits what little we know.

Or it just could be someone who is very caught up on graphics and can't tolerate the necessary downgrade needed for VR on PS4. There are many people in this thread who at least claim to feel the same way. I'd equate that to the type of people who say a game is garbage if it isn't 1080p and 60 FPS.

 

[Papacheeks]

Dude, no. No one is demoing on special super-PS4s, and VR games have pretty strict performance requirements mandated by Sony.

What people have been seeing is what they are going to get.

So your telling me a demo from a year ago is going to play exactly the same at retail? Or another part of the game that has not been shown wont or will have issues?

So any game that releases will be pre-patched to adhere to the performance guidelines?

So your % telling me there wont be frame rate issues on any VR game? There wont possibly be sacrifices made in final code to adhere to said guidelines to get it to run properly?

 

[Abdiel]

Dude, no. No one is demoing on special super-PS4s, and VR games have pretty strict performance requirements mandated by Sony.

What people have been seeing is what they are going to get.

He's refusing to hear it. He's got a narrative, that's what he's believing. He's so bent out of shape about the neo that he's almost a circle.

Seriously. They've been demonstrating these psvr units on existing ps4 hardware for ages, it was always core units. This is getting ridiculous.

Rigs and valkyrie are already mind blowing on core ps4.

 

[wonderful103]

So your telling me a demo from a year ago is going to play exactly the same at retail? Or another part of the game that has not been shown wont or will have issues?

So any game that releases will be pre-patched to adhere to the performance guidelines?

PSVR has mandatory performance guidelines set by Sony.

This differs from retail non-VR games

 

[benny_a]

PSVR has mandatory performance guidelines set by Sony.

This differs from retail non-VR games

You can't reason someone out of a position they haven't reasoned themselves into.

 

[Papacheeks]

He's refusing to hear it. He's got a narrative, that's what he's believing. He's so bent out of shape about the neo that he's almost a circle.

Seriously. They've been demonstrating these psvr units on existing ps4 hardware for ages, it was always core units. This is getting ridiculous.

Rigs and valkyrie are already mind blowing on core ps4.

I'm not refusing anything. If you actually stopped knee jerk reacting you would have seen 2 minutes after my first original post I put Corrected. But you were just waiting to fucking pounce on anyone not in the positive GAF NEO/VR foray.

I'm tailoring my expectations, I also think RIGS looks fucking amazing for a VR game. But you or I have no clue what or if there are frame rate dips, or if the game was scaled back a bit to accommodate how intense the action is.

And if these launch titles come out being totally fine and awesome, my fear is knowing what we know how some of them are reaching the said spec guidlines, what down the line will get sacrificed, and how OG PS4 will perform on more complex/detailed games.

So far VR on PC has no mandate and experiences all vary.

 

[Abdiel]

I'm not refusing anything. If you actually stopped knee jerk reacting you would have seen 2 minutes after my first original post I put Corrected. But you were just waiting to fucking pounce on anyone not in the positive GAF NEO/VR foray.

I'm tailoring my expectations, I also think RIGS looks fucking amazing for a VR game. But you or I have no clue what or if there are frame rate dips, or if the game was scaled back a bit to accommodate how intense the action is.

And if these launch titles come out being totally fine and awesome, my fear is knowing what we know how some of them are reaching the said spec guidlines, what down the line will get sacrificed, and how OG PS4 will perform on more complex/detailed games.

Positive neo foray, huh? I don't want to hear about you, calling me with a knee jerk. I left your quite up after you corrected, because it was so inane. But you then came back with more of the same.

I've already said, I don't care if you have issues with the neo, but I'd prefer that you argue with actual facts or rationality instead of the tripe you've thrown at real insiders with valid knowledge trying to help clarify for you.

Accusing me of knee jerk is laughable. If you were really tailoring your expectations, you'd listen to the verified information, not the anonymous unverified stuff that people are using to throw shit around.

 

[Matt]

I'm not refusing anything. If you actually stopped knee jerk reacting you would have seen 2 minutes after my first original post I put Corrected. But you were just waiting to fucking pounce on anyone not in the positive GAF NEO/VR foray.

I'm tailoring my expectations, I also think RIGS looks fucking amazing for a VR game. But you or I have no clue what or if there are frame rate dips, or if the game was scaled back a bit to accommodate how intense the action is.

And if these launch titles come out being totally fine and awesome, my fear is knowing what we know how some of them are reaching the said spec guidlines, what down the line will get sacrificed, and how OG PS4 will perform on more complex/detailed games.

So far VR on PC has no mandate and experiences all vary.

The frame rate mandate won't get relaxed. It's about keeping people from getting sick.

Can I promise that everything will be perfect all the time? No, of course not. Nothing ever is. But you have absolutly posited in this thread that PSVR games may have been demonstrated on nonstandard PS4s and in ways specifically intended to hide their performance issues, and that's just not true.

 

[Papacheeks]

Positive neo foray, huh? I don't want to hear about you, calling me with a knee jerk. I left your quite up after you corrected, because it was so inane. But you then came back with more of the same.

I've already said, I don't care if you have issues with the neo, but I'd prefer that you argue with actual facts or rationality instead of the tripe you've thrown at real insiders with valid knowledge trying to help clarify for you.

Accusing me of knee jerk is laughable. If you were really tailoring your expectations, you'd listen to the verified information, not the anonymous unverified stuff that people are using to throw shit around.

Outside of MATT, and the few others saying everything runs fine on current PS4 for VR, how is that fact now? It's their said experience on whatever game they are either developing on VR, that may or maynot be super intensive, or maynot even be a vr game. We just take their un detailed word for it?

I remember way back when titanfall was coming out, i called out a developer from Respawn, on how long they worked on the game, the said I was wrong. Then The final Hours by Geoff Keighly came out and confirmed my suspicions on issues getting the game to market hence it being content light.

I'm not saying they are not bringing forth valid information and insight, but none of it, is technical or even elaborates the issues I have with it for future titles. He doesn't know how some other studios game is going to run at launch. He doesn't know to adhere to the performance mandates that big downgrades could infact occur, and when NEO is launched show the discrep I'm talking about between both machines.

So if a game doesn't meet the requirments SONY WILL pull it from stores or PSN? Sony is following every 100+ VR title to a T on performance guidelines they set?

Or are these mandates literally set within the development kit? If that's the case then I guess I am a moron and apologize to everyone.

The frame rate mandate won't get relaxed. It's about keeping people from getting sick.

Can I promise that everything will be perfect all the time? No, of course not. Nothing ever is. But you have absolutly posited in this thread that PSVR games may have been demonstrated on nonstandard PS4s and in ways specifically intended to hide their performance issues, and that's just not true.

I never said everything I posted was gospel I said it was all a possibility and even you know how some bigger companies have run games they;ve shown on non-retail hardware, never said I could be totally wrong.

So your saying when studio demos their game they dont pick a certain section they know runs without a hitch? Because my understanding from couple of my friends at Ubisoft, Gearbox say otherwise. If the games come out without a problem and everything is gravy then great. But I don't for a minute with how company's/studios have been with showing games take everything at face value.

Especially when VR on PC is so hit or miss right now.

 

[Jabba]

Lorne Lanning also said PSVR games are going to be good.

Matt, Demonite, M0dus other devs, I don't know how you stand it.

If any dev would please answer. Can a dev shoot for 65 fps for a buffer zone for a title, or that's not how it works?

 

[Paz]

Dude, no. No one is demoing on special super-PS4s, and VR games have pretty strict performance requirements mandated by Sony.

What people have been seeing is what they are going to get.

Is it not incredible that people are willing to completely go with an un-named source and extrapolate a bunch of nonsense from their ramblings, despite that stuff all going against things that have already been officially announced and publicly playable for a year?

I find it incredible.

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

Dude, no. No one is demoing on special super-PS4s, and VR games have pretty strict performance requirements mandated by Sony.

What people have been seeing is what they are going to get.

Papacheeks has had an agenda since the very first rumours about Neo leaked. It's best to ignore him at this point. Just argues for the sake of it.

 

[Alucrid]

Outside of MATT, and the few others saying everything runs fine on current PS4 for VR, how is that fact now? It's their said experience on whatever game they are either developing on VR, that may or maynot be super intensive, or maynot even be a vr game. We just take their un detailed word for it?

I remember way back when titanfall was coming out, i called out a developer from Respawn, on how long they worked on the game, the said I was wrong. Then The final Hours by Geoff Keighly came out and confirmed my suspicions on issues getting the game to market hence it being content light.

I'm not saying they are not bringing forth valid information and insight, but none of it, is technical or even elaborates the issues I have with it for future titles. He doesn't know how some other studios game is going to run at launch. He doesn't know to adhere to the performance mandates that big downgrades could infact occur, and when NEO is launched show the discrep I'm talking about between both machines.

So if a game doesn't meet the requirments SONY WILL pull it from stores or PSN? Sony is following every 100+ VR title to a T on performance guidelines they set?

Or are these mandates literally set within the development kit? If that's the case then I guess I am a moron and apologize to everyone.

i'm more likely to believe developers than the incoherent ramblings of some guy on neogaf

 

[Jacksinthe]

Yea, and they are demos? Not retail final software. And those PS4's could in fact not be retail units.

Also a demo is tailored usually to portray the best working parts of your game. Who's to say different sections of said game has frame rate or other issues when they release.

Halo 5 demoed very well, but when digital foundry got it's hands on the final code, we found out how intense the dynamic resolution scaling was, and how enemy animation frame rate was halved which was really a distraction while playing.

Look at Just cause 3, game looked fine at shows and in high quality footage, and then it released and was a shit show frame rate wise.

Don't take everything at face value until it's actually in consumer hands.

RIGS says hi.

But I suppose the actual game, matches and all with MP is just showcasing the best parts which are, you know, the game.

Devs commented in this thread already but I suppose that's not good enough. First hand experience with and developing for PSVR isn't first hand enough for you, I guess.

 

[Paz]

So if a game doesn't meet the requirments SONY WILL pull it from stores or PSN? Sony is following every 100+ VR title to a T on performance guidelines they set?

If you only knew the number of inane things that behave in an identical or controlled fashion across every single Playstation game ever released because of Sony's technical requirements you would be shocked. Performance checking VR games is going to be a fucking breeze for them.

 

[Aostia]

Good to have this debunked!!!

 

[Papacheeks]

Papacheeks has had an agenda since the very first rumours about Neo leaked. It's best to ignore him at this point. Just argues for the sake of it.

My agenda? Like that I have an opinion on thinking it's not a great direction for the industry? SO neogaf is all about if your for something? So it's follow the conversation or be called a called out a hater or a agenda seeker?

Sorry for having an opinion.

 

[androvsky]

Outside of MATT, and the few others saying everything runs fine on current PS4 for VR, how is that fact now? It's their said experience on whatever game they are either developing on VR, that may or maynot be super intensive, or maynot even be a vr game. We just take their un detailed word for it?

I remember way back when titanfall was coming out, i called out a developer from Respawn, on how long they worked on the game, the said I was wrong. Then The final Hours by Geoff Keighly came out and confirmed my suspicions on issues getting the game to market hence it being content light.

I'm not saying they are not bringing forth valid information and insight, but none of it, is technical or even elaborates the issues I have with it for future titles. He doesn't know how some other studios game is going to run at launch. He doesn't know to adhere to the performance mandates that big downgrades could infact occur, and when NEO is launched show the discrep I'm talking about between both machines.

So if a game doesn't meet the requirments SONY WILL pull it from stores or PSN? Sony is following every 100+ VR title to a T on performance guidelines they set?

Or are these mandates literally set within the development kit? If that's the case then I guess I am a moron and apologize to everyone.

Sony did delay Wipeout HD six months when it failed the epilepsy tests. When it comes to potentially making people ill and giving their fancy new headset a bad name, I suspect they'll be a little more serious about what passes the TRCs.

 

[benny_a]

My agenda? Like that I have an opinion on thinking it's not a great direction for the industry? SO neogaf is all about if your for something? So it's follow the conversation or be called a called out a hater or a agenda seeker?

Sorry for having an opinion.

Realistically nobody really gives a shit if you don't like a direction, but actual exchange of thoughts could be had on that topic for sure.

It's all the absurd conspiracy nonsense and your display of the fantasy prone personality type that you barf all over your keyboard that people take issue with foremost.

 

[Papacheeks]

Realistically nobody really gives a shit if you don't like a direction, but actual exchange of thoughts could be had on that topic for sure.

It's all the absurd conspiracy nonsense and your display of the fantasy prone personality type that you barf all over your keyboard that people take issue with foremost.

Like what? Using history of video games where we've had companies try these similar things and fail, or games play like butter on stage and in press releases then to get retail and have it not be what was shown?

 

[Jacksinthe]

My agenda? Like that I have an opinion on thinking it's not a great direction for the industry? SO neogaf is all about if your for something? So it's follow the conversation or be called a called out a hater or a agenda seeker?

Sorry for having an opinion.

Opinions are only opinions until faced with facts and then debunked.

Contuing your tirade isn't an opinion any longer, that opinion becomes an agenda in the face of facts.

Funny how that works, eh?

 

[gunslikewhoa]

My agenda? Like that I have an opinion on thinking it's not a great direction for the industry? SO neogaf is all about if your for something? So it's follow the conversation or be called a called out a hater or a agenda seeker?

Sorry for having an opinion.

The problem is that you seem to be looking at everything even remotely related to this 'not great direction for this industry' through 'I hate this direction for this industry'-tinged glasses.

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

My agenda? Like that I have an opinion on thinking it's not a great direction for the industry? SO neogaf is all about if your for something? So it's follow the conversation or be called a called out a hater or a agenda seeker?

Sorry for having an opinion.

It stopped being a credible opinion the moment you started ignoring fact multiple users threw at you in favour of baseless moral panic. It's reached a point where nothing you're saying is based in reality but you double down on it because 'fuck Neo and everything it represents' or something.

 

[pixellated_man]

I shall await Digital Foundry comparison videos of VR recorded demos v. retail.

Good decision. In the meantime please give a rest to your non stop fud / gloom and doom spewing.

 

[orochi91]

I shall await Digital Foundry comparison videos of VR recorded demos v. retail.

Great.

How about keeping the FUD to a minimum until then?

 

[Papacheeks]

It stopped being a credible opinion the moment you started ignoring fact multiple users threw at you in favour of baseless moral panic. It's reached a point where nothing you're saying is based in reality but you double down on it because 'fuck Neo and everything it represents' or something.

What facts? You mean developers saying Neo or VR is what it is it's fine? How is that fact?

Showing a screenshot that shows something like VR frame rates for retail software that's fact. Showing a clip or another screenshot of how easy development on NEO/OG PS4 is, that's fact.

Someones word which could be their personal experience with teh devkit on their own engine is just that, their interpretation/expierence.

 

[LeleSocho]

First off, there have been plenty of reviews of people saying the PSVR is quite enjoyable to contrast with your claim that "Technical gurus behind these visors have made clear that we are far away to a believable good experience." Perhaps you are talking at a photorealistic level but that is an unfair comparison. We did not need photorealistic graphics to enjoy our our non-virtual video games so why make this a requirement on virtual games. Yes, virtual games won't look as good purely on a graphical quality level as non-virtual games...so what?

I'm not talking about photorealism i'm talking about elements that prevent immersion or hinders it. The moment games will be created with higher resolutions, framerates and sensors in mind they'll become impossible to be ported down to stuff like ogPS4 and/or ogPSVR.

Second, you say you are talking about the future. Well in the future someone could buy the Neo if they wanted a performance boost. That is a much more logical upgrade path for a current PS4 owner than to suggest they dish out $600 for a state of the art VR headset 2-3 years from now along with any computer upgrades needed to power it. If someone is going to go state of the art in VR 2-3 years from now, getting a PSVR this year isn't going to affect that. Those are entirely different price ranges so they aren't really competing options.

The much more logical choice is for a current PS4 owner to pick up a PSVR around release. If they find that they like it and want more ummpf then they can pick up a Neo next year to complement it. They could also sell their PS4 to help pay for it while still being able to play all their existing games on their new Neo console. That combo is going to be future proof for a while as it will have many VR games targeted specifically for that spec.

Going forward I fully expect to see a new improved fully compatible VR headset that could work with the Neo for even better results. At that point, the owner could upgrade their headset if desired. Rinse. Repeat.

The key takeaway is that the console will no longer be a fixed spec for an extended period of time. It will likely only offer the most cost affordable tech at each refresh so it won't be cutting edge, but you'll be able to upgrade at regular intervals if you feel like chasing the tech curve.

This is very true and it actually doesn't go against what I (and the premise of the thread for what it matters) said which is that the ogPS4 is not going to give you good VR experiences in the future and you need to upgrade if you want them.
I have not said that what they showed is bad or it's not going to work as showed on the hardware we already have only that in no time all of these will be seen as obsolete and what will be the new standard will not be able to run on old hardware.
Sorry if i repeated myself in few lines but it seems i can't manage to get the point across.

 

[Thebeardofknowledge]

Like what? Using history of video games where we've had companies try these similar things and fail, or games play like butter on stage and in press releases then to get retail and have it not be what was shown?

Something tells me you won't make it long enough to eat that crow.

 

[Dreamgazer]

What facts? You mean developers saying Neo or VR is what it is it's fine? How is that fact?

Showing a screenshot that shows something like VR frame rates for retail software that's fact. Showing a clip or another screenshot of how easy development on NEO/OG PS4 is, that's fact.

How do you know the DEVs aren't just showing off frame rates for sections of the retail software that runs well? How do do you know DEVS aren't running the PS4 Neo "retail" version, instead of the PS4 version?

How do you know the clip or screenshot isn't some professional acting BS?

Why do we even bother with E3? They could all be pre-rendered trailers being run on PC?

HOW DO WE KNOW ANYONE ON GAF IS EVEN REAL?

GIVE ME THE FACTS!

 

[The Last Wizard]

I knew it! Sony are still evil! Evil I say! Evil, greedy and cocky!

 

[Papacheeks]

How do you know the DEVs aren't just showing off frame rates for sections of the retail software that runs well? How do do you know DEVS aren't running the PS4 Neo "retail" version, instead of the PS4 version?

I WANT SCREENSHOTS!!!

 

[Dreamgazer]

I WANT SCREENSHOTS!!!

THEY'RE BULLSHOTS!

 

[PeregrinSe7en]

Reading through this thread has been entertaining.
All the usual suspects jumping at the chance to dump on the psvr - only to have the rug pulled out underneath them minutes later - ha!

we need a wall of shame to round these people up lol

 

[Papacheeks]

THEY'RE BULLSHOTS!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

 

[Cthulhu_Steev]

tales from the papacheeks.

 

[jayu26]

I am starting to experience existential crisis because of this thread.

OT: Sooner Sony puts out PSVR demo kiosks running on PS4 base model the better.

 

[wonderful103]

THEY'RE BULLSHOTS!

Well, joking aside, that is still prevalent in the console space, to be frank. E3 will be yet another breeding ground for that this year.

"We're totally playing the PS4 version. This Xb1 game is in engine!"
{plugged into high end PC with controller, or people who have practice-synced their controller actions to a video recorded from an ultra rig}

 

[ModBot]

Ok then. I think that's it. This thread is drifting into major derail and personal insult land. It's been real, folks.