Support NeoGAF

[Peltz]

Ok. Then show me a single modern open world game with this level of hands-off freedom. Seriously. I want to play it.

If you're saying BotW isn't anything new for other, modern devs, I need to know which games you're talking about, because I want to play them.

Morrowind. I'm a huge fan of Zelda and BotW, but Morrowind offers as much freedom as BotW in many ways. It's not as organic of a game, nor does it feel as good combat wise, nor do the NPCs feel as charming.

But as far as freedom is concerned, Zelda sort of feels like a modern day Nintendo-like execution of what Morrowind promised for the future of games 15 years ago, but no one else (until now) was ever able to realize.

Like BotW, all of Morrowind's gameplay is governed by a series of rules (but in this case, they are not physics based). But I can craft a spell in Morrowind to increase my acrobat skill then jump over entire mountains if I wanted to. In fact, here's a video of someone who managed to jump from one end of the game to the other:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Whz-LQlbI-U

You can do all sorts of crazy stuff like this. But in no way is it as approachable or enjoyable to play as BotW. It's definitely a classic that you may really enjoy though. It's not like the modern Bethesda games that followed it either. It's a great open world.

Just don't go into it expecting BotW or Nintendo-like polish. It's janky as fuck and feels like the whole world is held together by spit and glue. But if you give it a chance, you will find that there's a really really deep game there.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

Morrowind.

Played it years and years ago. Loved it. Same with Daggerfall. But both are such a different type of open world game and they're from a completely different era. But it is true that those games were made from a developer that is still creating stuff today.

I'm asking about the modern AAA space, though. No one believes BotW is doing things no other game has ever attempted, ever. But I want to play something recent that is like this. Seriously. I have to believe something else it out there.

 

[jroc74]

Ok. Then show me a single modern open world game with this level of hands-off freedom. Seriously. I want to play it.

If you're saying BotW isn't anything new for other, modern devs, I need to know which games you're talking about, because I want to play them. The closest modern game I can think of is MGS V, but this game goes so much further than that.

I was in the middle of editing my post when you posted this.

Played it years and years ago. Loved it. Same with Daggerfall. But both are such a different type of open world game and they're from a completely different era. But it is true that those games were made from a developer that is still creating stuff today.

I'm asking about the modern AAA space, though. No one believes BotW is doing things no other game has ever attempted, ever.

Sometimes its hard to tell...lol.

And the other part of my post was...compared to the Zelda series. Its definitely new for Zelda.

Not so much for some other developers.

 

[jonjonaug]

Morrowind.

Zelda offers more freedom in terms of gameplay systems, but I would say that Morrowind is one of the few games that come close to BOTW and playing BOTW reminded me a lot of the first time I played Morrowind.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

I was in the middle of editing my post when you posted this.

I'm not talking about being able to turn off UI elements, markers, or minimaps. You can do all of that in BotW already.

Zelda offers more freedom in terms of gameplay systems, but I would say that Morrowind is one of the few games that come close to BOTW and playing BOTW reminded me a lot of the first time I played Morrowind.

Yeah, Morrorwind really was something special. I can't really stand Bethesda's gameplay systems, but it was still a really great experience.

Not so much for some other developers.

You keep saying this and I keep asking you to expand on it and you won't. Like, please give me one example of a modern game with BotW's level of freedom, so I can go buy it. I own all modern platforms. I want another game like this. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm genuinely asking.

 

[Cuburt]

I've definitely been waiting to hear what other devs had to say after playing the game.

Nintendo's GDC panel made me think there was a lot of stuff in the game that developers would really respect.

 

[obauma]

I had 0 interest in buying a switch before - after watching this I'm going to get one as soon as I can get my hands on one.

 

[guek]

This is a genuine question: what modern AAA game has this level of freedom and hands-off approach toward the player? I'm seriously asking, because I want to play it . By "modern", I mean this generation. No Man's Sky, perhaps? Haven't played it, so I don't know if it qualifies.

What's unique about how open BotW is not its scope, it's the freedom to really go everywhere without feeling like you're still following the pre-set path the developers created for you. Skyrim for example is just as open but everyone has to follow a set narrative for actual game progression. Of course, Nintendo still guides you but the motivation is exploration itself. Everyone rolled their eyes when they hyped up the ability to see anything in the distance and actually go there because that's been a thing for years and years. The difference they didn't convey at that time was you're going to actually want to go to that far off point just for the sake of going there and seeing what you find along the way. The game design is ridiculous in how deceptive it is. The game plays YOU without you realizing it by stringing you along in different points of interest constantly and making it feel worth the effort because the likelihood of being rewarded for your curiosity is extremely high.

 

[cubicle47b]

Ken Levine talking about hunting for amiibos at the end had me dying.

 

[foxuzamaki]

Just watched the entire thing, great podcast, its interesting to hear developers talk about playing games the same way we are, in that they arent just thinking of making games 24/7, sometimes they just want to play a game and can have all the same praises and gripes we gamers have.

Certain comments from like ken levine and the like made me realize that some of them are also really into japanese games in the same way gaf is.

 

[Peltz]

Zelda offers more freedom in terms of gameplay systems, but I would say that Morrowind is one of the few games that come close to BOTW and playing BOTW reminded me a lot of the first time I played Morrowind.

I agree.

What's unique about how open BotW is not its scope, it's the freedom to really go everywhere without feeling like you're still following the pre-set path the developers created for you. Skyrim for example is just as open but everyone has to follow a set narrative for actual game progression. Of course, Nintendo still guides you but the motivation is exploration itself. Everyone rolled their eyes when they hyped up the ability to see anything in the distance and actually go there because that's been a thing for years and years. The difference they didn't convey at that time was you're going to actually want to go to that far off point just for the sake of going there and seeing what you find along the way. The game design is ridiculous in how deceptive it is. The game plays YOU without you realizing it by stringing you along in different points of interest constantly and making it feel worth the effort because the likelihood of being rewarded for your curiosity is extremely high.

I think the scope is important, as well as the freedom, but to me, the real unique factor is the interactivity. Every building can be entered, every surface can be climbed or navigated, every tree can be cut down, every animal can be either collected or killed, and literally everything visible is touchable. Plus you can combine all these things in countless unique ways.

Literally everything you see in the game is part of the gameplay and part of the level design. There is no window dressing and no stuff there just because it looks pretty. Nothing was put into the game without being made interactive and useful to the game in some way.

 

[jroc74]

This is a genuine question: what modern AAA game has this level of freedom and hands-off approach towards guiding the player? I'm seriously asking, because I want to play it . By "modern", I mean this generation. No Man's Sky, perhaps? Haven't played it, so I don't know if it qualifies.

I was responding to this.

Thats why I mentioned maps, icons, mini maps, huds.

If you mean like this post:

What's unique about how open BotW is not its scope, it's the freedom to really go everywhere without feeling like you're still following the pre-set path the developers created for you. Skyrim for example is just as open but everyone has to follow a set narrative for actual game progression. Of course, Nintendo still guides you but the motivation is exploration itself. Everyone rolled their eyes when they hyped up the ability to see anything in the distance and actually go there because that's been a thing for years and years. The difference they didn't convey at that time was you're going to actually want to go to that far off point just for the sake of going there and seeing what you find along the way. The game design is ridiculous in how deceptive it is. The game plays YOU without you realizing it by stringing you along in different points of interest constantly and making it feel worth the effort because the likelihood of being rewarded for your curiosity is extremely high.

....other games might not be to the level of BotW is but that doesnt mean they guided you full stop.

How many times have ppl said they played GTA V and just messed around in the game doing no missions? Many open world, sand box games are like this.

Even then there is no set way to complete side missions in GTA. Main missions not so much.

You keep saying this and I keep asking you to expand on it and you won't. Like, please give me one example of a modern game with BotW's level of freedom, so I can go buy it. I own all modern platforms. I want another game like this. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm genuinely asking.

I am expanding on it. You are looking for something specific tho.

Read my latest response......

You want a modern example of another game like BotW? How about kudos for Nintendo for finally expanding on the Zelda formula.

And for Mario Odyssey. Something that many of us have been asking for for years.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

I was responding to this.

Thats why I mentioned maps, icons, mini maps, huds.

If you mean like the post above....other games might not be to the level of BotW is but that doesnt mean they guided you full stop.

Even if you turn off UI elements, you're still being guided by every other modern open world game I've personally played. Games like The Witcher 3, Shadow of Mordor, and GTA V. You are locked from main quest content (and even side content in many cases) until you complete other objectives.

When I say "guided", I don't mean "lead to your destination by an icon". Maybe "gated" is a more appropriate word.

 

[Ziocyte]

BotW really is a masterclass in open world. And like they were saying in the podcast, to come out on your first real attempt at something like this and just completely nail it is unbelievable. Was a really good listen (a little gushy maybe, but well deserved); would definitely recommend.

 

[(mat)]

No

Thank you. :^)

 

[guek]

Tbh, I don't think what makes BotW's game design work so well is easy to understand or readily apparent on the surface. I'm not even saying that like I 100% "get" it either as evidenced by my difficulty articulating what I mean. BotW is an incredibly psychological game that incorporates everything in its environment to manipulate the player. It's not as simple as saying you can go anywhere or that you fill the map itself or any other simple answer. The game is too nuanced to describe that way.

 

[uncle_koploski]

I don't know why people say this Nintendo's first try at open world.

Wasn't Xenoblade Chronicles X an open world game?

 

[Neoweee]

I'd love to have a blow up of Ken Levine's face during this. At time he seems at awe and chuckling at a bunch of the weird shit, but also eye-rolling a bit when other's are praising it to the "best game ever" degree.

I don't know why people say this Nintendo's first try at open world.

Wasn't Xenoblade Chronicles X an open world game?

And Xenoblade 1, sort of. X was a complete smoldering train wreck of a game, so I'm glad they used it as a learning experience. There's like 50% of that game's content that I would never touch just because the interface and mechanics behind them are so extraordinarily bad. Oh God, fuck the affection system, the party system, the insurance system, and the...

 

[Rushersauce]

Maybe those denying the good reviews, and being salty about it can shut up, now.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

I don't know why people say this Nintendo's first try at open world.

Wasn't Xenoblade Chronicles X an open world game?

And the first Xenoblade Chronicles. I don't think a lot of gamers and people in the industry realize that Monolith is a first party studio. And that they assisted with this game .

 

[Tathanen]

And the first Xenoblade Chronicles. I don't think a lot of gamers and people in the industry realize that Monolith is a first party studio. And that they assisted with this game .

You can see a lot of Xenoblade Chronicles X in certain parts of BotW, Zora's Domain in particular really evokes it a lot. BotW's world is like a much-more-polished and tighter version of a lot of Xenoblade stuff.

I can only hope Xenoblade 2 is "the next step" in this polish, but lookin at that trailer it sure doesn't look like it will be. Monolith+EAD seems to be the magic combo.

 

[Huge Succeeded]

Maybe those denying the good reviews, and being salty about it can shut up, now.

This kind of thing will go ignored by anyone who wants to deny the game credit at all. They're just going to make the same posts re:Breath of the Wild that they have been.

 

[gamerMan]

Wow, the Disneyland comparison totally works. The layout in this game really does always have something unique or interesting visible without ruining the picturesque feel of it. I'm really not sure how they accomplished that.

It's like tight level design, but it goes on for miles and miles with tons of variety.

The map layout is probably one of the best things about the game. If you were to look at the map from above you would see that each zone has its own color much like Disneyland. Also between each zone you would see the transition from one zone to the next. The game is constantly communicating to the player on a subconscious level.

Like Disneyland, the entire world is laid out with visual magnets to visibly guide you from one area to the next. It acts as the "invisible hand." These visual cues are used to create "predictable foot traffic" through Zelda's world. Within each zone are smaller attractions.

The developers in the video called this the "Hot dog stand effect". Disney calls these visual magnets "Weenies."Here is a great article on how Disneyland purposely laid out to direct foot traffic. Wayfinding in Themed Design: The "Weenie"

 

[Cerium]

Hopefully BOTW will influence all open world games going forward. It really sets the bar higher.

I don't know why people say this Nintendo's first try at open world.

Wasn't Xenoblade Chronicles X an open world game?

Well it's the first attempt by this team, although there were some Monolith designers brought on for this purpose.

 

[Skittzo0413]

Morrowind. I'm a huge fan of Zelda and BotW, but Morrowind offers as much freedom as BotW in many ways. It's not as organic of a game, nor does it feel as good combat wise, nor do the NPCs feel as charming.

But as far as freedom is concerned, Zelda sort of feels like a modern day Nintendo-like execution of what Morrowind promised for the future of games 15 years ago, but no one else (until now) was ever able to realize.

Like BotW, all of Morrowind's gameplay is governed by a series of rules (but in this case, they are not physics based). But I can craft a spell in Morrowind to increase my acrobat skill then jump over entire mountains if I wanted to. In fact, here's a video of someone who managed to jump from one end of the game to the other:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Whz-LQlbI-U

You can do all sorts of crazy stuff like this. But in no way is it as approachable or enjoyable to play as BotW. It's definitely a classic that you may really enjoy though. It's not like the modern Bethesda games that followed it either. It's a great open world.

Just don't go into it expecting BotW or Nintendo-like polish. It's janky as fuck and feels like the whole world is held together by spit and glue. But if you give it a chance, you will find that there's a really really deep game there.

I can't agree enough with this post. Actually, I made a thread basically saying this several months ago.

Breath of the Wild really feels like a modern Morrowind where the focus is less on RPG elements and more on physics and "chemistry", yet the end result winds up being the same. In Morrowind you can brew an acrobatics potion to let you leap to Red Mountain in one jump to take on the boss (though you need a couple more items before beating the game). In Breath of the Wild you can use stasis or octo balloons on a log to fly directly to Hyrule castle.

It's that same manner of using the systems and rules the game gives you and doing whatever the hell you want with them, where nothing feels like cheating or feels off-limits.

 

[Thoraxes]

You can see a lot of Xenoblade Chronicles X in certain parts of BotW, Zora's Domain in particular really evokes it a lot. BotW's world is like a much-more-polished and tighter version of a lot of Xenoblade stuff.

I can only hope Xenoblade 2 is "the next step" in this polish, but lookin at that trailer it sure doesn't look like it will be. Monolith+EAD seems to be the magic combo.

It really does remind me a lot of XCX a lot in terms of map design and points of interest with exploration. Just that this is designed for one level of traversal, where XCX is a little more multi-faceted in terms of micro and macro (skell, flying, foot).

 

[jroc74]

Even if you turn off UI elements, you're still being guided by every other modern open world game I've personally played. Games like The Witcher 3, Shadow of Mordor, and GTA V. You are locked from main quest content (and even side content in many cases) until you complete other objectives.

When I say "guided", I don't mean "lead to your destination by an icon". Maybe "gated" is a more appropriate word.

Ok, fair enough.

Only examples I can think if is games like Terraria and Minecraft.

As to are they AAA....well...I'll let other ppl debate that one.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

Ok, fair enough.

Only examples I can think if is games like Terraria and Minecraft.

As to are they AAA....well...I'll let other ppl debate that one.

These are actually great examples. I see a lot of Minecraft in this game. Even though they're very different in many ways.

 

[Huge Succeeded]

These are actually great examples. I see a lot of Minecraft in this game, actually. Even though they're very different in many ways.

I see about as much if not more Minecraft in this game than I see the DNA of other open world RPGs.

 

[nubbe]

Ken Levine talking about hunting for amiibos at the end had me dying.

They release the game of all time, but don't have any Amiibo's to sell

 

[Flipyap]

It's things like this that make me convinced that Breath of the Wild is going to become an immortalized classic and required reading on open world game design.

I hope that's true, but it's also kind of sad because it feels like Breath of the Wild wouldn't exist without games like Morrowind, Far Cry 2 or Dragon's Dogma and those games were essentially forgotten as open world game design spiraled out of control in a different direction. Still, better late than never.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

I hope that's true, but it's also kind of sad because it feels like Breath of the Wild wouldn't exist without games like Morrowind, Far Cry 2 or Dragon's Dogma and those games were essentially forgotten as open world game design spiraled out of control in a different direction. Still, better late than never.

I feel like Far Cry 2 did a lot right, but is a very frustrating game in many ways.

Still, it's awesome.

 

[guek]

....other games might not be to the level of BotW is but that doesnt mean they guided you full stop.

I'm not saying that though. It's not the degree of guidance that's different, there are varying degrees of guidance in other games as well. The way they guide you though and how they motivate the player feels very different. Likening it to Scribblenauts or Minecraft is apt because you feel like you're creating your own experience.

 

[spekkeh]

That was a great watch OP, thanks. Perhaps not as insightful as I may have wanted? But still really infectious to hear industry vets talk about feeling young again. One of the only times I say through a 45 minute YouTube video on people talking about games ha.

 

[victreeb3l]

It really does remind me a lot of XCX a lot in terms of map design and points of interest with exploration. Just that this is designed for one level of traversal, where XCX is a little more multi-faceted in terms of micro and macro (skell, flying, foot).

Eastern Akkala and Faron gave me some serious XCX nostalgia.

 

[Version 3.0]

I hadn't even thought about it until they mentioned it (which just goes to show how right they are), but this game is indeed the least buggy or glitchy modern open world I've ever seen. Amazing.

And really, it's a technical marvel. All those systems working, all the moving parts, from tiny bugs to huge dragons, and it runs very well.

But all the talk is about "huge framerate issues". Compare this game's performance "issues" to any other open world, especially before months of patches. It's a finished product out of the box. Unbelievable in this day and age. And from a company doing its first modern open world.

 

[Peterc]

Ok. Then show me a single modern open world game with this level of hands-off freedom. Seriously. I want to play it.

If you're saying BotW isn't anything new for other, modern devs, I need to know which games you're talking about, because I want to play them. The closest modern game I can think of is MGS V, but this game goes so much further than that.

This, if you can't answer his questions. Stop being silly about how botw isn't groundbreaking. Proof it with games, otherwise stop complaining about something you can't proof. Botw input is what developers need, a good example is that the chief from blizzard is blown away by zelda and is also playing it. Maybe a good direction for wow 2?

 

[ShadowgeistX]

I don't know why people say this Nintendo's first try at open world.

Wasn't Xenoblade Chronicles X an open world game?

I'm going to agree with this. The feeling of exploration in this game reminds me a LOT of XCX. That world was a joy to explore too.

 

[Kurt]

It does what other games should do these days.

It's not only the engine,
It's about live weather changements. How the world comes to live because everything is moving (grass, wind, ....)

It's about the smartest enemies / animations that i've seen in a game.

It's like "they finally made it to the next step of how a game should be"

There is just so many to talk about a single game. To many things.
I mean it doesn't have to be the same genre to implement something like that.

 

[Penguin]

Really liked the talk

My only qualm is shading of Xenoblade/X with BOTW being Nintendo's first open-world game.

 

[Chaos17]

I really don't think it does. It's a great game but it really doesn't do anything new, just what it does do it does well. Biggest thing devs can learn from the game is giving more freedom to players.

Did you listened to it before posting a comment ? because you're repeating a lot the same thing through many threads.
No one is talking being a revolution at all.

 

[LegendofLex]

Your point about the dungeons is interesting, because I always thought that was also the weakest part of Zelda 1. It seems they sorta crossed the "sameyness" aspect of the Zelda 1 dungeons with the puzzle-like dungeons of the post LttP series to wind up with the 120 shrines. I really think the main dungeons were either an afterthought or more of a brand new experimentation, rather than them trying to reformulate the dungeons from the original.

Don't get me wrong though, I really liked how the main dungeons sorta forced you to think outside the box. They were just far too short with far too few enemies (and enemy types).

Well, I mean, the sameyness was never part of the appeal of the dungeons in Zelda 1.

What was appealing about the dungeons was that they were very dangerous compared to the overworld (lots of new and harder enemies not seen outside of dungeons) and it was tricky to navigate from the start all the way to the end (it helped to have a map that showed the layout of the dungeon and a compass that showed the endpoint).

Breath of the Wild's dungeons really aren't like that at all. The shrines definitely aren't like that. They don't seem to have been using Zelda 1 as an inspiration for them, outside of there being a stark contrast between the overworld and dungeon environments.

 

[Tathanen]

The big differentiator I think with Zelda's open world is a combination of being systems-driven (physics, chemistry) and being 100% climbable. In a lot of huge worlds you kind of play "on top" of them. They're background, you follow the paths, you skate over the surfaces, you interact with the key points. In BotW you play "in" the world, you can clamber over every surface and interact with every feature.

Since we're talking about Xenoblade, it's a good example. In Chronicles X the world seems similar to BotW on the surface, big mountains and forests and lakes and whatnot. But all you can do is run over the surfaces, and only if they aren't too steep. There's no true interaction, it's a "game setting." The level of adhesion between Link and the world in BotW is what's largely unprecedented at this scale. Elements of it are found in a ton of games sure, but it's the combination of the world's size, its system-driven nature, and its player-character adhesion that make it a First.

 

[purdobol]

Maybe a good direction for wow 2?[/b]

I'm not a big fan of WOW but got to say no. MMO should focus on massive multiplayer part first and foremost. And as weird as it sounds, not many MMOs do? I often see the question regarding MMO "can I play this solo?" and it's baffling. If you can do this solo what's the point then?

 

[Mory Dunz]

The climb anything anywhere is really the crux of this games exploration magic, and like they said, it's so hard to design a game around that that I don't see many copycats in the future.

yeah, that sounds like hell to get that working well.


imagine the bug testing, or reaching somewhere you "shouldn't". Sounds exhausting. I suppose the solution was: make as few places that you can't reach as possible

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

This game legit feels like hundreds of people worked on it for years

 

[koss424]

BotW doesn't really do anything new per se but its incredible how polished the game is. 70 hours in and haven't come across a single bug or glitch. Everything works as it should. And that's pretty amazing for an open world game of this scale.

I've played quite a few games that have swept me in and have me thinking during the workday of getting back to the game as soon as I get home, but i haven't played a game were it seems I am truly a part of an epic story. I've had encounters/boss battles in BotW where I've finished the fight or quest and I'm like wow - that was an amazing experience. I can't quite put my finger on what exactly separates it from other games I've played but it's there.

 

[kitzkozan]

I can't agree enough with this post. Actually, I made a thread basically saying this several months ago.

Breath of the Wild really feels like a modern Morrowind where the focus is less on RPG elements and more on physics and "chemistry", yet the end result winds up being the same. In Morrowind you can brew an acrobatics potion to let you leap to Red Mountain in one jump to take on the boss (though you need a couple more items before beating the game). In Breath of the Wild you can use stasis or octo balloons on a log to fly directly to Hyrule castle.

It's that same manner of using the systems and rules the game gives you and doing whatever the hell you want with them, where nothing feels like cheating or feels off-limits.

I agree with BOTW being a modern and superior ES III: Morrowind type of open world. The biggest difference is that I will never associate any developer who worked on the Elder's Scroll as a "genius". Bethesda do have great ideas, but they also have very bad ones which make their way into their games. They simply cannot find the balance or have the level of polish that you have from Nintendo EPD.

 

[phanphare]

Ken Levine talking about hunting for amiibos at the end had me dying.

yeah was about to post this, that got a solid chuckle out of me

"hmmm, $73 isn't so bad...."

 

[Peltz]

Really liked the talk

My only qualm is shading of Xenoblade/X with BOTW being Nintendo's first open-world game.

Xenoblade Chronicles wasn't an open world game. Xenoblade Chronicles X was though.

The first Xenoblade was really just a normal JRPG with large environments and a lot of exploration. It was pretty linear though.