Support NeoGAF

[bigboss370]

 

[Ricky Ricardo]

Being an upgrade and not a replacement means this is highly unlikely. Devs will target the basic PS4 and then use the left over juice on the PS4K to make things prettier and/or smoother.

You really think first party developers like Naughty Dog are going to spend most of their time optimizing for the PS4 and then add some slightly better textures, AA, AO, etc for the PS4K version?

As opposed to building a 1080p30 title on PS4K and throwing the kitchen sink of high end rendering techniques at it and toning everything down for the PS4?

No way some of these enterprising 1st party devs leave the performance upgrade of the PS4K on the table. And that's exactly where the problems will start.

 

[sixteen-bit]

lmao

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Lol. Was he trolling maybe?

I like to think it was just mixing things up. For example if Zoetis isn't up to speed with tech and specs he may have mixed up 2X GPU performance with 2 GPUs/SLI and not realised SLI is Nvidia.

I don't see myself as massively knowledgeable with tech but like to think I know the basics.

 

[Proelite]

Desktop Polaris 10 will have 1.2 ghz clock and thus 33℅ more flops, 5.4 teraflops.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

The last thing I remember Zoetis saying was that PS4K would be SLI. That almost certainly isn't the case.

Yeah his word isn't gospel.

 

[R10Neymarfan]

It doesn't work that way. This is R9 380x territory, not GTX 970 territory.

It's like a down clocked 290

 

[onQ123]

If this is true don't forget who discovered it.


http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=199232654&postcount=1587

Also if Polaris 10 isn't basically PS4 GPU @14nm & 2X the CUs why is AMD making a DirectX11 GPU in 2016?

It's the PS4 GPU at 14nm & now able to fit 36CUs where 18CUs at 28nm used to fit.


I say that Polaris 10 is made from PS4 going 14nm & Polaris 11 is from Xbox One going 14nm & Vega will be the monsters

 

[Renekton]

Severe CPU bottleneck <__<

 

[Tatsumi Oga]

I'm not big on knowing about hardware, but it seems Polaris is a very big deal?

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

Literally just more fps in ps4 games.

I wonder why they just didn't make a ps4 that only just upscales to 4k and supports 4k content. Make it the ps4slim equivalent.

If the above is true about polaris, that would be why.

 

[Papacheeks]

You really think first party developers like Naughty Dog are going to spend most of their time optimizing for the PS4 and then add some slightly better textures, AA, AO, etc for the PS4K version?

As opposed to building a 1080p30 title on PS4K and throwing the kitchen sink of high end rendering techniques at it and toning everything down for the PS4?

No way some of these enterprising 1st party devs leave the performance upgrade of the PS4K on the table. And that's exactly where the problems will start.

^

Someone get's it.

Literally just more fps in ps4 games.

I wonder why they just didn't make a ps4 that only just upscales to 4k and supports 4k content.

This is exactly what I thought they should have done, and all the PC elite people or Pro PS4K people burned me at the stake.

 

[Nikodemos]

No way some of these enterprising 1st party devs leave the performance upgrade of the PS4K on the table. And that's exactly where the problems will start.

According to the documents, Sony cert people expect devs to do precisely that. Code for the PS4 and add bells/whistles for the Neo.

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

So it's nothing but still a rumored overclock? Ughhhh.....I guess I'll be waiting until Sony actually says something. Yet another unconfirmed rumor..

 

[ViciousDS]

According to the documents, Sony cert people expect devs to do precisely that. Code for the PS4 and add bells/whistles for the Neo.

when the hardware is there......you don't just let it sit and not tap it. They expect them to do it.....But I'm expecting Black Ops 3 cross gen shenanigans. Where games don't advance at all in tech on the base model and even later in the cycle start to look worse than previous titles due to companies most likely outsourcing the base model.


That's what is probably going to happen. They are going to have the main Dev team do the Neo version and outsource the base version. Then we are going to get some extreme fuckery.

Can't wait to see Iron Galaxy Studios in action

 

[John Wick]

Curiously enough, what more can ND do?

This refresh doesn't seem beefy enough for a 30fps to 60fps jump, and UC4 already has phenomenal IQ.

And why might that be???
The CPU has a 31% boost and the GPU more than double. Memory has 18% boost. Explain to me why Uncharted 4 which is already known to run 40fps in single player mode on the normal PS4 can't run at 60fps on the Neo???

 

[RoboPlato]

I think as long as it has hdmi 2.0a its good, there's no performance hit and its not GPU dependent.

That's what I thought but I wanted to be sure. Wasn't positive how it worked outside of HDR mastered sources.

 

[Audioboxer]

when the hardware is there......you don't just let it sit and not tap it. They expect them to do it.....But I'm expecting Black Ops 3 cross gen shenanigans. Where games don't advance at all in tech on the base model and even later in the cycle start to look worse than previous titles due to companies most likely outsourcing the base model.


That's what is probably going to happen. They are going to have the main Dev team do the Neo version and outsource the base version. Then we are going to get some extreme fuckery.

Can't wait to see Iron Galaxy Studios in action

So you're expecting the Neo install base to double the original? There's more of a chance of a company outsourcing the Neo version than original. The Xbox 1 still exists and last time I checked there is 40m PS4s and zero Neos.

Some fuckery happens in 2 to 3 years time after Neo install base reaches some 10s of millions? Well get ready to care more about getting fucked that the PS5 is now coming out anyway. Are people really now prepared to enter a constant state of fear worrying about years down the line instead of buying what you can afford now and enjoying it?

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Curiously enough, what more can ND do?

This refresh doesn't seem beefy enough for a 30fps to 60fps jump, and UC4 already has phenomenal IQ.

I think if the GPU is Polaris based then it surely is a big bump?

I ask: Would upgrading my PC from a HD7850/70 to a (slightly cut down) Polaris 10 be a good upgrade?

My answer would be very much yes. I would hope it gave more than you suggest and hope Sony doesn't restrict things too much.

 

[Locuza]

I believe some PC folks stated in a previous PS4K thread that AMD and NVIDIA don't count Tflops the same.

In other words, AMD Tflops are not the same as NVIDIA Tflops.

They count it the same way and in the end FLOPs are simply saying how many floating-point-operations in theory the processor could handle.
But the end result depends on a long execution pipeline.

There is a lot going on, there is the Command-Processor, various scheduler, the Rasterizer/Geometry-Engines, primitive checks and so on.
They don't contribute to the whole FLOPs story at all but are vital in many regards for the end performance.
The floating-points operations are counted by the arithmetic units and those things are stronger on GCN than on Kepler and even Maxwell (if your workload fits the thread group of 64 well), the components around it are the reason why AMD is losing against Nvidia GPUs with a far lower FLOP count.

On top of it there is the driver and shader-compiler, where Nvidia does a better job, utilizing more of the hardware potential.
Not a problem on consoles, Sony and MS are writing their own stuff.

Zoetis already confirmed it's not Polaris.

Anything but Polaris would be crazy, power-consumption, GDDR5 bandwidth, box-size, everything would be quite bad till terrible.

I'm not big on knowing about hardware, but it seems Polaris is a very big deal?

It's very likely the biggest µ-architecture step forward which AMD did since the introduction of GCN.
Also using the new 14nm FinFET process technology at GlobalFoundries.
It's the next big round of efficiency, architecture improvements and lot of features in general.

 

[rpg_fan]

If this is true don't forget who discovered it.

Shall we also not forget your claims of a second gpu?

 

[Sorral]

Looking this over, this seems like it will delay the real substantial upgrade that would have come with the PS5 at year 5-6 of this generation especially on the CPU side.

Considering the kind of specs PCs are getting soon enough, and how the current PS4 will still hold back the PS4K, I don't see this being worth the hassle in the long run for me as a consumer. In fact, I'd say it is harmful in that a delayed PS5 means that the low specs of PS4/PS4K, compared to PCs, will still be the main target for third parties to design their games around.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Shall we also not forget your claims of a second gpu?

I thought this was the source: https://cgit.freedesktop.org/~agd5f...s&id=f3737d519277961f295f0a17e337f63542d17efb

?

 

[onQ123]

Shall we also not forget your claims of a second gpu?

Who says that there isn't a 2nd low power GPU for system tasks?

 

[orochi91]

Explain to me why Uncharted 4 which is already known to run 40fps in single player mode on the normal PS4 can't run at 60fps on the Neo???

Is that true? I hadn't heard of that, but if so, then yea, reaching 60fps would be within the realm of possibility in NEO mode.

My answer would be very much yes. I would hope it gave more than you suggest and hope Sony doesn't restrict things too much.

I would agree, but the fact that PSNeo will be shackled by the launch PS4, coupled with that Jaguar CPU, I've tempered my expectations as to what developers will realistically do with all that extra power.

Games made exclusively from the ground-up for the Neo console would be ideal, but that would spell disaster for Sony.

They count it the same way and in the end FLOPs are simply saying how many floating-point-operations in theory the processor could handle.
But the end result depends on a long execution pipeline.

There is a lot going on, there is the Command-Processor, various scheduler, the Rasterizer/Geometry-Engines, primitive checks and so on.
They don't contribute to the whole FLOPs story at all but are vital in many regards for the end performance.
The floating-points operations are counted by the arithmetic units and those things are stronger on GCN than on Kepler and even Maxwell (if your workload fits the thread group of 64 well), the components around it are the reason why AMD is losing against Nvidia GPUs with a far lower FLOP count.

On top of it there is the driver and shader-compiler, where Nvidia does a better job, utilizing more of the hardware potential.
Not a problem on consoles, Sony and MS are writing there own stuff.

Thank you for the in-depth explanation.

I can now refer to this post when other posters are erroneously comparing AMD and NVIDIA GPUs in a 1:1 fashion.

 

[Proelite]

Who says that there isn't a 2nd low power GPU for system tasks?

Y does system tasks need a second GPU? 1% timeslice on the main GPU would be much cheaper to do.

 

[JCreasy]

AMD is supposedly going to extrapolate Polaris across as many performance tiers as possible. So the PS4 is probably a cut down, lower clocked Polaris 10 than the one at GDC shown running at Fury/X levels.

Link please?

I can't find a video of this demo.

 

[Schnozberry]

Who says that there isn't a 2nd low power GPU for system tasks?

Because Sony isn't going to add cost and complexity to the console for giggles.

 

[ZoyosJD]

If this is true don't forget who discovered it.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=199232654&postcount=1587

Throw enough shit something is bound to stick.

I don't think this console is going to brute force it's way to 4K I think it's going to be by smart design & the main GPU will still be the same while there is hardware for pushing it to render at 4K.

my thought is that it will be a smaller GPU that's made for 4K rendering & maybe use half precision floating point & other things for higher performance while not being as big & power hungry as the main GPU.

You straight fell for that SLI trap. Should have stuck to your initial thoughts.

 

[ArchedThunder]

when the hardware is there......you don't just let it sit and not tap it. They expect them to do it.....But I'm expecting Black Ops 3 cross gen shenanigans. Where games don't advance at all in tech on the base model and even later in the cycle start to look worse than previous titles due to companies most likely outsourcing the base model.


That's what is probably going to happen. They are going to have the main Dev team do the Neo version and outsource the base version. Then we are going to get some extreme fuckery.

Can't wait to see Iron Galaxy Studios in action

This isn't a completely different platform like jumping from PS3 to PS4, it's the same architecture, the same CPU but with a higher clock, the same RAM but with higher bandwidth and a stronger GPU. The optimization for the stronger hardware will be nowhere near as much work as a completely different piece of hardware and Sony will almost definitely provide tools to make it even easier on devs, not to mention most engines these days are built for scalability already anyways. Since this is not a completely new platform and just an extension of the existing PS4 devs will target the regular PS4 99% of the time.
Sony and Microsoft (and probably Nintendo) are all moving towards iterative hardware, there is no way they won't make sure that it's as easy as possible for devs to support this.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Is that true? I hadn't heard of that, but if so, then yea, reaching 60fps would be within the realm of possibility in NEO mode.



I would agree, but the fact that PSNeo will be shackled by the launch PS4, coupled with that Jaguar CPU, I've tempered my expectations as to what developers will realistically do with all that extra power.

Games made exclusively from the ground-up for the Neo console would be ideal, but that would spell disaster for Sony.



Thank you for the in-depth explanation.

I can now refer to this post when other posters are erroneously comparing AMD and NVIDIA GPUs in a 1:1 fashion.

See this is what I don't understand. On paper specs seem to me to be a major bump if, like you say, the CPU doesn't hold things back. So what is the point if the OG PS4 gets priority? Makes zero sense to me and no one in their right mind will buy a more powerful version if Sony are going to restrict it to silly levels to appease OG owners.

Sony can't have their cake and eat it too.

 

[onQ123]

Y does system tasks need a second GPU? 1% timeslice on the main GPU would be much cheaper to do.

Maybe because some tasks don't need a 4tflop GPU

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

Games made exclusively from the ground-up for the Neo console would be ideal, but that would spell disaster for Sony.

Depends on when they do that. Let's not kid ourselves: those kind of games will eventually happen, but it's going to have to be when sales momentum is in favor of Neo and sales of regular PS4s are dying down. I would not be surprised if at some point there is no more than a $50 price difference between this and regular PS4 (maybe even as soon as next year; assuming PS4 gets a cut to $299 this year and Neo launches at $399, they could drop Neo to $349 next holiday season), and in that case you would have to be an idiot to buy the regular PS4 over the Neo.

Along w/ that sales momentum they could just also phase out the regular PS4 altogether and do a new bundle for Neo to maintain the "upper" tier value proposition while dropping the normal Neo down to that $299 or even $249 to act as the entry-level option.

But yeah; games taking full advantage of Neo is gonna happen eventually. Just, by then, most people are not going to be too upset since sales momentum would be in favor of Neo anyway.

 

[ArchedThunder]

See this is what I don't understand. On paper specs seem to me to be a major bump if, like you say, the CPU doesn't hold things back. So what is the point if the OG PS4 gets priority? Makes zero sense to me and no one in their right mind will buy a more powerful version if Sony are going to restrict it to silly levels to appease OG owners.

Sony can't have their cake and eat it too.

You can do a lot on top of existing PS4 games to make them look a lot better.

 

[Renekton]

See this is what I don't understand. On paper specs seem to me to be a major bump if, like you say, the CPU doesn't hold things back.

It will hold things back so don't expect major jumps.

 

[onQ123]

Throw enough shit something is bound to stick.



You straight fell for that SLI trap. Should have stuck to your initial thoughts.

Speculate until the truth comes out. & I still think there is a 2nd small GPU that's not for the devs but for the system.

 

[orochi91]

See this is what I don't understand. On paper specs seem to me to be a major bump if, like you say, the CPU doesn't hold things back. So what is the point if the OG PS4 gets priority? Makes zero sense to me and no one in their right mind will buy a more powerful version if Sony are going to restrict it to silly levels to appease OG owners.

Sony can't have their cake and eat it too.

Yea, Sony will have to make a serious case for the PSNeo.

If it is actually launching this year, then almost all the big AAA releases (UC4, TLG, Horizon, FF15 and etc) will have to demonstrate a very noticeable upgrade when switched to NEO mode.

Along w/ that sales momentum they could just also phase out the regular PS4 altogether and do a new bundle for Neo to maintain the "upper" tier value proposition while dropping the normal Neo down to that $299 or even $249 to act as the entry-level option.

But yeah; games taking full advantage of Neo is gonna happen eventually. Just, by then, most people are not going to be too upset since sales momentum would be in favor of Neo anyway.

I give it 2 years before vanilla PS4s are phased out.

That would give the launch model a 5 year window (2013-2018), which is perfectly acceptable.

The PSNeo will probably be used as a tool to "extend" this gen till 2020/2021, that's when the supposed PS5 should launch.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

You can do a lot on top of existing PS4 games to make them look a lot better.

It will hold things back so don't expect major jumps.

See Sony! Neither here nor there. 4TF GPU? Cool, but you can't use it.

I'm going to bed.....

 

[scitek]

No support for HDR or wide color gamut is a huge misstep, I think. That needs to happen with anything touting 4K as a focus right now.

 

[truth411]

This will unlock the rest of the screen in The Order.

CPU cant be the whole tale... right?

Lol!!! Ice Cold.

 

[anexanhume]

I highly doubt it's Polaris. I'm sure that would piss off devs more and complicate the tools.

 

[RoboPlato]

No support for HDR or wide color gamut is a huge misstep, I think. That needs to happen with anything touting 4K as a focus right now.

I'm trying to get an answer on that. I assume it will but there's no concrete word. HDR is even more exciting to me than some of the other features.

 

[RedAssedApe]

Speculate until the truth comes out. & I still think there is a 2nd small GPU that's not for the devs but for the system.

what do you mean by "system tasks"? isn't that what one of the jaguar cores is reserved for?

I'm trying to get an answer on that. I assume it will but there's no concrete word. HDR is even more exciting to me than some of the other features.

what does HDR bring to gaming? i feel like i've heard that term bandied about all the way back from half-life 2 and thought it was something related to lighting in that tech demo they put out.

 

[ChaoticBlue]

that they are using the upcoming Polaris technology.

 

[Memento]

I dont understand anything of this.

So my question is: is it a significant upgrade?

 

[scitek]

I'm trying to get an answer on that. I assume it will but there's no concrete word. HDR is even more exciting to me than some of the other features.

At $400, it wouldn't be unlike the deal the PS3 was when Blu-ray was new. A standalone UHD BD player costs just as much.

 

[RoboPlato]

what does HDR bring to gaming? i feel like i've heard that term bandied about all the way back from half-life 2 and thought it was something related to lighting in that tech demo they put out.

HDR lighting is used a lot in games but what I'm referring to here is HDR in 4k displays which support wider color gamuts

At $400, it wouldn't be unlike the deal the PS3 was when Blu-ray was new. A standalone UHD BD player costs just as much.

Exactly, which is why I think this is a great idea.

 

[Tagyhag]

I dont understand anything of this.

So my question is: is it a significant upgrade?

The truth is, we won't really know until E3.

And we won't really really know until it's actually out.

And then it'll be based on people's individual standards. Will going from 1080/~30fps to 1080/locked 30fps be enough or 1080/30 to 1080/60 etc.

 

[vpance]

I highly doubt it's Polaris. I'm sure that would piss off devs more and complicate the tools.

Doubt it too. It'll just be a double up of whatever is in PS4 Slim. No need to have separate architectures for 2 SKUs.

 

[shouamabane]

As a big fan of 60 fps and Blu-Ray video, this thing sounds great. I hope it works out well.