Taking the floor value rather than the ceiling really isn't any better.
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Digital Foundry: Neo GPU are point-for-point a match for RX 480
- Thread starter Shtof
- Start date
Taking the floor value rather than the ceiling really isn't any better.
dead monkey uk
Member
What do you mean, most TV adverts and branding mentions 4K now. How could they not use PS4K, even if the Neo only has 4K for media and games upscalled to 4K they could still advertise the Neo as the best device for 4K TV owners.
Depends on what company you prefer ;-)
thelastword
Banned
Absolutely, can't wait for E3, I am very much excited for our first set of iterative consoles ever, it's novel and it's also so great that AMD is there to make this happen. I really like where this is going and that it's possible. I know if these consoles had to depend on an NVidia solution, there's no way we would be discussing $400.00 for such powerful GPU's.
Exciting times ahead for both MS and Sony......
SenjutsuSage
Banned
Everyone is so focused on the GPU, but the GPU will be good regardless. I'm more interested in the next xbox having great memory bandwidth, notably better than what the Xbox One does, even more system RAM, and a much advanced CPU. If this next system, whatever it's packing, has those three things then we are officially in business.
I personally would like to see a minimum of 12GB of RAM in the next Xbox, preferably 16GB, a much more advanced CPU, and at least 280GB/s of memory bandwidth, preferably 300GB/s or better..
If Microsoft ends up waiting till late 2017 then they might as well take advantage of whatever tech advancements that they can.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
Seems like you want a PC...no system (ie console) is gonna have those specs for a reasonable price even in late 2017 without taking a bath in red.
gundamkyoukai
Member
MS has to balance between tech and price .
The specs you asking for would cost a fair amount even in 2017 .
And anyone thinking MS going to eat a big lost ( meaning anything over $50 maybe).
Are kidding there self.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
I don't think everything I mentioned is all that unreasonable late 2017 depending on how the various technology comes together.
NotSmartEnough
Member
Sorry, I've overstepped the mark: not all branding is UHD, but there is a shift from using 4k to using UHD.
4k is technically 4096 x 2160, the UHD format we're discussing here is 2160p, 3840 x 2160.
dead monkey uk
Member
I have noticed more TVs advertising UHD as a feature but 4K is what will draw in consumers, similar to the way HD has. The exact resolution of 4K means nothing to 95%* of console buyers.
I can see the branding for the PS4K as having the 4K font in gold. Part of the marketing will be around unlocking the potential of your 4K TV, especially if it includes a UltraHD Blu-ray drive.
*
Source my arse
4 X Xbox One BW. 68 X 4 aka 70 X 4 approximately = 280 GB/S. That's my educated guess. And it's a solid number!
LordOfChaos
Member
My question would be if they still need to use eSRAM for compatibility though. GDDR5 may offer more bandwidth, but latencies would be different and games would be programmed to use that pool (it's not an automatically managed cache like Crystalwell)
I think they will need it but also don't see it's a big issue to include it on the die, too. It should occupy only a small amount of space and could also still be used by new games as a fast programmable cache.
Risk Breaker
Member
4.2-4.4 TFLOPS are fine, anyone begging for a higher clock needs to realize that this is still a PS4 (apparently meant to be a PS4 slim that was as easy to make more powerful as it was to keep at 1.84 TFLOPS) and it will play PS4 games that will be made with the lowest common denominator in mind (XB1). Going higher seems like a bit of a waste, and is silly to push for the highest power possible to play a game that still needs to look OK and be playable on the XB1.
8+ TFLOPS will make more sense in a rral new generation that doesn't need to cater to the XB1's 1.23 TFLOPS.
8+ TFLOPS will make more sense in a rral new generation that doesn't need to cater to the XB1's 1.23 TFLOPS.
DarkConfidant
Member
Yeah, this is what Im wondering
potatohead
Member
They must have some pretty promising leaks/sources going to these guys.
The rumours have been pretty consistent for a good few weeks at least.
We'll see though, but the rumours being pretty specific, I think they are definitely in the ballpark, or closer, at least.
dead monkey uk
Member
The specs of the Neo dev kits were revealed from the Sony documents seen by Giantbomb. Does not mean there might not be changes by release, but gives a good idea of specs.
Digital Foundry has a good article on the leaked specs http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-sonys-plan-for-playstation-4k-neo-revealed
Astral Dog
Member
Wow that would be (as close as can be at this time) a half generation jump :O
GrayDock
Member
The esram took almost 1/4 of the X1 APU and it's one of the reasons for the weak GPU - to keep the APU size/cost in check they cut the GPU side to make room for the ESRAM.
If MS can cut it they will, but I don't think they can w/o creating backward problems with the X1.
Maybe they can go the X360 way and make a daughter die with the ESRAM, leaving the apu die with only cpu+gpu, but what about latency then?
Proelite
Member
32mb Esram will take less than half the die space it did on 14nm.
If you have dedicated wires for it going to and from the GPU it could be possible.
But the dieshrink should make the esram way smaller than before like everything will be smaller or lets say won't need so much space.
Either way, I am curious how they will do it.
Lister
Banned
It's unreasonable for a $400 console. Even $500 one. Maybe they can subsudize it down to $600, but I doubt it - and I doubt their investors would be happy taking yet another hit on the Xbox brand.
GrayDock
Member
All the die would be smaller going from 28nm to 14nm, so all the die will be 1/4 anyway and the esram woult take 1/4 of it again (considering the X1 die).
You'll have to make room for the ESRAM in any case and will lose cpu+gpu space for it.
Proelite
Member
12GB and 16GB of ram in 2017 should be pretty cheap.
12 GB of LPDDR4 on a 128 bit bus. 68gb/s.
16 GB of DDR4 on a 256 bit bus. 100gb/s.
Then on the GPU 1-4GB of HBM2 depending on price. 512 gb/s.
You'll have a memory setup like Xb1 but actually much faster, allows for easy BC, and potentially cheaper depending on Esram vs HBM2 costs.
Proelite
Member
Why would they want or need to shrink the die space? This is scorpio not a slim version.
The components on the die would be smaller, why would the die size itself be?
Taekwonmaster
Member
Could it be possible that the NX, Scorpio and Neo will use the Polaris architecture and just adjust the clocks to accommodate their needs?
It would be awesome to have a generation where the big three have similar power and the games are once again the principal differentiation.
I want this.
It would be awesome to have a generation where the big three have similar power and the games are once again the principal differentiation.
I want this.
geordiemp
Member
Being the most powerful is not the most important, BUT being powerful enough to allow important third party games to run well is important.
For current gen xb1 could not meet 1080p on many titles, that was important. If all games were 1080p on both, and one had slighly better LOD or physics nobody would of cared,
For this next step, the goal for many posters appears to be 1080p60, how the console dev reaches that goal for games like souls series or witcher is up to them.
So for me anything over 4 TF who cares, but the choice of CPU and bandwidth will probably make allot of difference for some games. Both consoles need more bandwidth and zen is my wish.
If a console goes 6 TF but has a crap CPU, and sill runs at 1080p with lovely effects but cant lock at 60 FPS then its a waste of time and money imo.
I would just keep my Ps4 for exclusives and buy the better console if thats Xbox. And no,, I dont want to play online games with or against a mouse thanks, would rather pull my teeth out.
So your not expecting it to be using an APU? So a dedicated CPU with 16 GB of Ddr4 and 4gb hbm2 for a discrete GPU that's 6Tflops (2 separate chips) for only $400?? I think your setting yourself up for disappointment bro.
Edit: no matter the price only 1-2gb of ram for such a gpu would be ridiculous.
Your effectively describing a new generation console base on available tech at the time, that happens to be backwards compatible.
Proelite
Member
1-4GB of HBM2 on the APU.
Basically the same setup as Xb1 but the HBM2 replaces the esram. Overall more ram and much faster and possibly cheaper.
gundamkyoukai
Member
Why would you use such a small amount of memory on the gfx part of the card ?
If you are using two pools of memory .
GrayDock
Member
I didn't say the scorpio die would be smaller nor that X1 die would be shrunk, what I said is that even at 14nm the esram would take cpu-gpu space on the die. A small absolute space than the esram in the X1 die, 14nm is smaller than 28nm so the absolute size for the same 32MB will be smaller, but the relative space could be the same 1/4 of the die.
And even if the esram becames 1/8 of the die, it is some space that could be spent on the cpu-gpu logic.
If Sony and MS have the same budget (U$, thermal, size, etc) for the APU, the MS one will be weaker, tflop speaking, because of the esram.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
No this is NOT TRUE. It's an Xbox 1.5
If it's a totally new cpu and gpu, with a new memory solution to feed a 6tflop gpu. There is nothing 1.5 about it, it's a completely new console (new architecture) that's backwards compatible.
Edit: On the other hand the PS4k is literally a beefed up PS4, that's the difference.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Mix and match to get your speed and size with a minimum of 8 GB then 16GB @ 2X the bandwidth then 32 GB @ 4X the bandwidth.
gundamkyoukai
Member
I think power will decide that for some people .
You can have a whole new new architecture but that don't matter to some people .
That is only if they take the same parts which we don't know and what is discussed. If the CPU architecture is based on a new one, it will be more powerful, no matter what the die size is. Same applies to the GPU. Also there is not only CPU and GPU, there is also a memory controller and interconnect that sits on a die.
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
Looks like a big step to me, i.e., a new console that will end Xbox One.
The power difference is near 5x, too large to follow the model Sony are with Neo.
oldergamer
Member
I think you're wrong.
GrayDock
Member
Yep, I agree. The cpu can be a zen and the gpu a vega, but the logic still apply: if they need esram they'll need to make the die larger than w/o it, increasing the cost, or they'll cut some gpu/cpu cores to fit the budget, the X1 case.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
Phil said no half-steps so I guess he doesn't see it as a 1.5.
gundamkyoukai
Member
I guess that will depend if they reach there target.
And the current leak Neo specs stay the same .
Theonik
Member
I'm fine with taking either if you do that with both, but really it's probably best to take the floor in terms of giving realistic figures. Of course that and some liberal rounding on both sides have been fantastic so far for telling which horse each poster is backing.
KinofChaos
Banned
no it isn't. Neo is over 4 times more powerful, it's usually ten times + more powerful for an entire new gen.
No you are right, technically 4k doesnt define the number of vertical lines as thats dependent on the aspect ratio - while UHD (and Full HD, HD ready) does with a 16:9 aspect ratio.
Its specifically used for TVs - expect it to be advertised as 4k UHD as 8k UHD is a consideration! Til then I suspect the term will just end up being truncated where 4k and UHD mean the same thing, which they kinda dont...
ps3ud0 8)
This ain't no XB1.5. Much closer to/pretty much is XB1 successor than half step.
It's literally a new generation console base on technology available at the time. If rumors are true then it's a new console that's backwards compatible.
KinofChaos
Banned
Again...no it isn't.