I see, this surprises me. For XBOX360 they had a close to the metal version of DX if I remember correctly?
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DirectX 12 GPU exclusive features to be shown/announced at GDC
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
They did, but it wasn't (fully) available in the first 1-2 years. So in that sense, the Xbox One isn't much different.
Chobel
Member
Source? AFAIK you can "write to the metal" since before launch, plus the devs of Metro said this last year
The Artisan
Member
it's probably already been said somewhere in this thread, but a 20% gpu boost to the xbone is a pretty big deal
http://m.windowscentral.com/what-microsoft-revealed-about-xbox-and-windows-10-today-gdc
http://m.windowscentral.com/what-microsoft-revealed-about-xbox-and-windows-10-today-gdc
During the lifetime of 360 development MS unlocked a significant portion of direct access. It's happening here, however MS are trying to do it in a much more controlled fashion this time. And rightly so, it means all titles will potentially have big performance gains via DX12, rather than just Big Boy(tm) developers.
OdysseusVA
Banned
There's no 20% GPU boost. Please rewatch the full keynote instead of quoting journos who don't have clue.
You cannot do anything on XB1. True story. MS have been very very good at working with and listening to developers at unlocking things via SDK. Eg you can do more work via multicore already. Example, core 7 is now part usable (shared with OS), when it wasn't at launch. There's also an SDK API layer to turn off Kinect sensor, which frees up the reservations.
Cocaine's one hell of drug. True story. brah!
dr_rus
Member
Yeah, that quote was for DX12 version of Fable on PC and has no relation to Xbox One. There is a rather lengthy thread on this somewhere around here.
As for DX12 somehow making a game harder to run on PS4 - that's a complete nonsense. Nothing will change in multiplatform development with DX12 (I consider Win PC and Xbox One to be one platform already).
Probably you missed this thread. I'm sorry to disappoint you!
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1003987
Chobel
Member
Just making sure here, this is your experience working on Xbox One devkits? Or this is some stuff you read online?
If that is the case, why did you state it would hurt performance if an i7 were to be used? Even then you're far more likely to benefit (even if it doesn't scale to all games).
The Artisan
Member
I remembered that, the way the article was written though I figured it was affecting the xbone too.
how do you fuck that up though?!
someone else has posted. as for your second statement, are we to presume then that the circle 5 dev was worrying about a whole lot of nothing?
http://gamingbolt.com/dx12-adoption...production-cross-support-with-ps4-is-a-factor
ah, no I do remember that thread but when I came across that article I thought that maybe it was affecting the xbone as well. but thanks.
It's a 20% boost to PC's using Direct X. The XB1 is already "coding to the metal", so there is no such performance boost to be gained. The update basically allows PC's to get closer to the level of efficiency that the consoles currently have.
A lot of journalists don't have much of a clue about the technical ins and outs of these things. Also, a few may have willfully misinterpreted it.
Except it is mostly the Big Boy developers that will use and have the expertise to use low level apis. DX12 isn't a drop in replacement to DX11.
Not pissed here. Will be pretty easy to sell.
That seems wrong. If anything DX12 as an api should be much more closely related to GNM than DX11.
TheHellsLord
Member
Given that many of the smaller Developers don't even touch DX11 or DX12 but rather use ready made engines like Unity, Unreal Engine or CryEngine we actually might see more of a difference there in the short term than with Publisher's (big boy's) in-house engines as those are pretty much asured of gaining DX12 compatibility sooner rather than later.
When it comes to expertise you're right though. There is a reason why few smaller developers write their own engines nowadays.
I don't see how this is a good thing. You can keep dx while giving access to a low level api at the same time, like how ps3 has support for ogl(though most don't use it). It does make some sense from a cross platform perspective, but when it comes to efficiency seamless optimization between platforms is pie in the sky anyway. wouldn't leveraging the strengths of consoles, aka low level access to the hardware make more sense?
it would look bad for ms to admit that they use another low level api for better performance. i think it's nothing more than marketing, trying to make dx look like the default.
That was my point.
I inferred that you meant only big boys got to use low level apis close to the metal. DX12 doesn't change that, those that don't have the expertise will either use ready made engines or will program using the dx11 api. At least during the near term.
It would be a big deal if it wasn't bullshit lol
dr_rus
Member
Even the wording on that link makes no sense whatsoever:
So all these developers who are using DX (11.X) on the Xbox One right now are making a calculated decision to not release these games on PS4, am I right?
it's just FUD.
They have said it does but what is debated is whether or not it supports all the hardware features. I was sceptical at first but the more I think of it the more it makes sense the Xbox One GPU must support at least one of them (tiled ressources tier 3) since Directx 11 does not expose all the GPU features of the GCN. I also remember AMD saying the 300 series (GCN 1.1) supported conservative rasterization so in all likelyhood the Xbox (and PS4) must support it as well.
dr_rus
Member
GCN 1.0-1.2 does not support all hardware features of DX 12.1. So there's that.
There's currently no way of knowing what is in the standard to support it in the first place. It's like trying to find a browser that fully supports HTML5 when HTML5 wasn't even fully standardized.
dr_rus
Member
You've missed the GDC info I take it? It is known what a GPU have to support to be compatible with 12.0 or 12.1 feature levels. It is most certain that current GCN won't support 12.1. There is a possibility that they will support 12.0. But to be fully DX12 a GPU need to support 12.1, and right now only Maxwell 2 GPUs are capable of that.
AMD have confirmed that all GCN cards support feature level 12_0. Like Fermi and Kepler.
Maxwell support 4 DX12 hardware features.
I am sure that any new GPU could actually support the upcoming standard. AMD is part of the group that acutally develops the Direct3D standard after all.
I just meant that we don't fully know what that standards fully entaily yet, except the broad goals. These special hardware operations, that were shown in a slide a while ago, didn't seem too important to me, maybe useful for a few edge-cases, where they could make things faster.
I wonder if feature level 12_0 is going to be much slower in actual games then a GPU with feature level 12_3. Maybe a few percent in benchmarks ?
dr_rus
Member
a. Where did AMD confirm that?
b. Fermi and Kepler certainly won't support FL 12_0 and unlikely to support 11_1 as well.
c. Maxwell 2 support FL 12_1.
Well until we have any official data on Fiji we can only guess from the leaks. But it is strange that AMD didn't say that they support 12.1 and opted for saying that they support Tier 3 of resource binding feature instead. That kinda say to me that they might not support FL 12_1 in Fiji.
There is no FL 12_3.
Some tidbit:
https://twitter.com/XboxP3/status/579369141326381056
https://twitter.com/XboxP3/status/579369141326381056
http://www.legitreviews.com/amd-says-gcn-products-will-support-dx12-amd-freesync-still-coming_137794
Hum I may be confused then, I thought Fermi supported DX12 but no dx12 hardware features so which feature level does this correspond to ? 11_0 ?
I guess they will support dx12_1 at the very least.
TC McQueen
Member
12_0 and/or 11_3.
There's nothing there about hardware feature levels.
dr_rus
Member
That's the confirmation that they'll have WDDM2.0 drivers for GCN chips basically. Meaning that GCN will be able to use "thin API" advantage that DX12 is providing. This doesn't say anything about features supported by the hardware though. GCN chips support FL 11_1 in DX11 currently and this may be the case with DX12 as well. Although I have a feeling that FL 12_0 is what Xbox One will support basically and that means that at least GCN 1.1+ should support FL 12_0 as well.
Yes. Fermi and Kepler will have WDDM2.0 drivers (like old GCN chips) and will be able to use "thin" DX12 API but their hardware feature support is likely to be limited to FL 11_0.
Who? AMD in Fiji? This is unknown at the moment and we can only guess.
Unless MS announced some new FLs for DX11 in Win10 and I've missed that there are no 11_2 and 11_3.
It is interesting how they'll handle the addition of new features in DX11.3 actually. In DX 11.2 they've opted for expanding the optional FL 11_1 functionality instead of introducing a new feature level. I'm thinking that they may do the same thing with DX 11.3 which would mean that DX11 will still have only two feature levels - 11_0 and 11_1 - but the latter would be further expanded by additional features of Maxwell 2 and GCN3.
Hmm. Yeah, I'm confusing DX release features with feature levels. DX11.2 is DX11_1, the added features are only software related.
This would imply DX12_0 is equivalent to DX11_1. I did read in AT that Dx11.3 will support the same features as DX12_1, obviously to accomodate the same features in both APIs. Now, what feature level 11.3 is, I don't know.
Okay my mind was not clear about the differences between API and feature levels.
michaelius
Banned
Some more info on tier levels for GCN and Maxwell
https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/direct3d-feature-levels-discussion.56575/page-4#post-1833996
I don't even want to try to understand that
https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/direct3d-feature-levels-discussion.56575/page-4#post-1833996
I don't even want to try to understand that
nkarafo
Member
I remember this with DX9 cards and DX10. I don't even remember DX10 features being important or making a huge difference in games. I do remember Lost Planet having slightly better fur effects on coats and Crysis having some extra lighting effects but that's it. Not to mention that you could actually enable most of "DX10" effects on Crysis even if you had a DX9 card.
I don't know what DX11 brought to the table as i was away from PC gaming for more than 5 years.
I don't know what DX11 brought to the table as i was away from PC gaming for more than 5 years.
RazorbackDB
Member
And i just uninstalled the WDDM 2.0 driver to try the latest one for W8.1 -.-, anyway downloading.
edit: bah, nevermind
edit: bah, nevermind
Journey
Banned
But they also said it was too late to do anything for Metro, and that's a pretty recent game which would indicate most available games have not been able to take advantage of this DX12/GNM Style API, enphasis on the word style because it does not mean it features everything that DX12 will allow.
Here's the full quote on comparing API's:
Sounds horrible, and it looks like the important changes didn't come soon enough for games like Metro and possibly many other games with the same release window. In particular alarming is the PS4 is handling draw calls so fast that they're barely visible in the profile graph, that just sceams how bad it's handled on the bone where the CPU core was found to be hosed by draw calls.
Jessie.Bristol
Member
Has this been posted? RIDE developer Milestone is saying that the DX12 will provide a slight benefit on Xbox One based on what they've seen, but admittedly haven't went deep into it.
http://gamingbolt.com/ride-dev-dx12...ne-current-api-already-has-some-dx12-features
http://gamingbolt.com/ride-dev-dx12...ne-current-api-already-has-some-dx12-features
diffusionx
Gold Member
Old post, but man, buyers of the 970 are already pissed.
I have been supporting PC gaming for almost 20 years but I always seem to get hosed in some way shape or form. Even when I buy the "sure thing." Comes with the territory I guess.