BluePigGanon
Member
This.
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Does too much fanservice in games bother you?
- Thread starter Doosi
- Start date
This.
cosmicblizzard
Banned
Well, people are free to do that as well. Doesn't make it any less bullshit though (except in some circumstances).
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Oh my god are you fucking serious with this? No different than victim shaming?? She's not a real character with any agency. Good grief!
I have to say that I am quite... dazzled by some of the posts I'm reading here. xD
It's kind of funny to see artistic freedom being used as an argument about something called fanservice, which is literally throwing in stuff to please the fans (and make more money). Very artistic all right.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Then there's not actually a point to criticism. Expressing your opinion without any desire that it will be taken into account is just yelling into the void.
kuroneko0509
Member
You may find it hard to believe that there are people that do genuinely enjoy these performances without any sense of sexual arousal or gratification. This really circles back to the whole problem with the user more so than the content. It might be you that has a problem if you're seeing it as something sexual.
Who are you to judge what is and isn't art? Takaki-san's work on the Senran Kagura games is centered around fanservice, but it is absolutely his artistic vision through and through. He has full control over that series, and actively CHOOSES to up the ante fanservice-wise with every release because he loves the female form so much. That is his art, and he revels in sharing it with the world. And I deeply respect him for it.
-Tom
Haunted
Member
:lolAlso, I don't mind the occasional fanservice from a game. Whatever. But stuff like this Tweet made me laugh during E3. Yeah, the costume is a bit weird. But it could have been a lot worse. https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/611229178596233218
EDIT: Now w/ pic
I dunno. Costumes don't really bug me as much except for like Dead or Alive 5 where the game almost runs off of micro transactions for costumes. Then you got games like P4DAN where the fanservice (sort of) made sense due to her being an idol.
that's brilliant. Real life does write the best stories, you just can't make this stuff up.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
I'm seeing a misunderstanding here. I don't think they're talking about advocating for change in future products, they're saying "you shouldn't be asking to change existing products". Which is fair, but then again, no one is also saying anything about censoring existing products, so that's effectively a strawman.
Huh? I'll judge a product however I damn please, same as you. What the hell?
To be fair, you can't really step into the creator's mind to know what is fanservice, and what is just their desire.
I agree with this. When you express an opinion, you SHOULD desire that it will be taken into account... in future works from the same artist.
Once an artistic work has already been created, though, it's like a painting that's been signed. You should never express your opinions on art with the intent of changing what's already out there, but shaping things that are yet to come.
My point is that NO ONE can judge what is and isn't art... because everything is art. Every single creative endeavor in the history of humanity is art, in one form or another.
You cannot judge something as being "not art" any more than I can. Because you and I alike would always be wrong in that judgment.
-Tom
Moral Panic
Member
Why can't I want to get rid of things I don't like?
Why not? If someone thinks KKK art is cool, why can't I judge them?
Why is it bullshit? If I don't like it why should I be censured?
Yep.
NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom
Banned
I have a niece and I can't say it ever made me physically ill. I'm more worried about the way people drive or drugs. I just don't know, I never really got the hysteria over those child beauty pageants either, it's weird sure but I just don't think it has a correlation to anyone who is grabbing 6 year olds off the street, or abusing them in family.
Just some quick searches. Please take note that I think calling it porn implies the only point is masturbating to it. Also I think it's fair to say 'masturbates to anime' implies otaku/basement dweller for this crowd.
---------
Well want it all you like, as long as you're not firing up a bulldozer to run over Steam Keys of Neptunia actually you know what ... do that. I don't get it personally, but whatever good luck and god bless you on your journey to reform the Japanese gaming industry.
Ohmygoditsjrod
Banned
Just like the people who want to compare fan service to porn. They are seeing something to get you off instead of something that may just be pleasing to look at.
I'm am glad that most posts have either been "yeah I like it" or "its not for me."
https://youtu.be/SLsm_Wl1-uk?t=2m14s
I'm actually pretty amazed at the fairly constant tone in this thread that reads "If they are making something that I don't like, I'd rather them not make anything at all than take the effort to step around the the thing I don't like".
But then that's not fair to the people that enjoy it. Why is one side more important than the other?
People that like fanservice don't complain if a game doesn't have fanservice to begin with, but there are people who don't like it, and they complain when a game does, even if that game was clearly going to have it.
I don't care if non fanservice games get changed, but when people want things like Senran Kagura and the like to be removed, then it becomes nonsense, because it's not for those people, and they would never play it to begin with.
Edit: Well I do care, but not enough to get really upset about it.
Because you do not represent all people. And some people DO like those things. And those people have as much right to like and enjoy them as you do to dislike and not enjoy them. And to deprive those who like these things of them simply because you do NOT like them is rude, selfish and completely unethical.
-Tom
cosmicblizzard
Banned
A lot of fanservice is just as much about author appeal as it is about pleasing the fans. The guy that does Senran Kagura is putting in all that T&A purely for himself. The only reason the guy likes the fanbase is they share his tastes.
Hoping for something that has always been about fanservice to change is kind of selfish to both the fanbase and the creators.
It's different when we're talking about something that might be fanservice. Both author intent and death of the author become a big part of the discussion, which admittedly can help in the future if the artist learned how to portray said aspects better. I still disagree with calls to excise it completely as opposed to the author making their intent clear.
Moral Panic
Member
Of course you can view sexy costumes without any sexual arousal, but to deny that is what they exist for is a level of mental acrobatics that completely baffles me.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
What about the inverse? Is it selfish to hope that the Fire Emblem series continues down its current trajectory when it alienates historical fans?
It's not why they exist, though. Like, objectively not. That would fly in the face of the entire idol industry if it were. Pop idols in Japan, and even worldwide, are very specifically meant to be chaste and innocent. As mentioned earlier, if there's the slightest hint of sexuality, it can be very damaging to a pop idol's career -- and that goes for men and women alike.
-Tom
Seems a little selfish and mean. I don't like dudebro military shooters that are insanely popular, but I don't complain about how I think they shouldn't exist.
Wow. Well, I can see this is pointless.
kuroneko0509
Member
I don't see how it is? Tom said it himself it's seen more as cute than sexual if anything. And he explained himself that there's really a whole different perception on this with the East and West, hence the standards and reactions to Idol Culture here and elsewhere.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Chaste innocence can (and often is) absolutely be part of a sexually charged fantasy. If not sexually explicit than certainly sexually posessive.
Give the guy some slack, it's not a Godwin point ^_^
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Of course I can judge what is and isn't art. Who are you to tell me I can't?
jenniferlawrenceyeahok.gif
Whatever you say. xD
Moral Panic
Member
This example is Korean, but pretty much proves what I am trying to say
https://youtu.be/ejY-SSI_1-0?t=7m35s
All I can say is, I strongly disagree. That is not how true "moe" works. I would suggest reading up on this.
-Tom
You not liking it isn't a good enough reason for it to not exist. Thats a rather selfish way of existing really. I don't like a lot of shit...I just tend to focus on things I do and leave those things alone.
As for the KKK example (that I knew would pop up sooner or later), the main difference is that KKK stands for legit bad shit. The KKK killed Black people because of the color of their skin. That is a hell of a lot different from something like Senran Kagura. If you can't see the difference there than that says a lot about you.
KirbYuuYuu
Member
I'm a bit lenient on fanservice to an extent.
I'd give a more long-form post provided the thread is still open after work though.
I'd give a more long-form post provided the thread is still open after work though.
NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom
Banned
Can we get some more data here? The Rise costume from the badge seems pretty normal to me but I'm a subhuman anime fan to me it's a high school uniform with exposed stomach. Is your problem the midriff or what exactly?
Not sexy right?
Sexy? Too sexy?
This is really not Japanese idol dancing at all though.
edit: Also I'm not totally disagreeing with you the whole focus on chasteness with a lot of idol groups obviously fuels into a sort of fantasy, but to bemoan these groups being too sexual while linking to Korean performances and being upset about an exposed midriff just seems ridiculous.
That doesn't prove anything except that some random Korean girls don't understand idol culture in any way.
-Tom
That's the one hundred dollars question. I mean a topic like this does not last usually here, but then again this one manages to survive and regularly brings with it some interesting input.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
What is true "moe" though? Whenever I dip into conversations or poke my head into communities based around what we think of as moe there's basically always some sexual appreciation going on, sometimes in the posessive way, sometimes in a more explicitly suggestive way. If the argument is that the vast majority of moe appreciation isn't sexual in any capacity, I'm not seeing it
cosmicblizzard
Banned
To be fair, Fire Emblem is at the peak of its popularity, possibly because of that. It may also line up with authorial intent, but I'm not positive about that.
That being said, from a purely artistic standpoint, no that isn't selfish. It is of course well within the power of IS to continue down that path, just like it's well within the power of any other company to go in the opposite direction in largely fanservice-oriented series.
But still, I think Fire Emblem is a different beast altogether. Adding in a face-rubbing mini-game that can easily be ignored doesn't change it from being an incredibly very well-designed SRPG with mass appeal. I don't think we should be comparing something less than %1 of a game to a series like Senran Kagura where the fanservice is front and center.
Honestly, kinda weird. She looks like a 20 year old trying to dress like a 9 year old.
cosmicblizzard
Banned
Serious question to those critical of idol culture. Do you think Ponponpon is sexual?
sensui-tomo
Member
Thats been the way the FF15 (in the past), Xenoblade X and FE Fate threads have been. Its basically saying " Fuck this game, its not what i like, I'd rather nobody be able to enjoy it whatsoever if it doesnt please me" which comes off as basically... dickish for a lack of better terms.
Moral Panic
Member
Aaron-Lagann
Banned
Never.
NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom
Banned
So Koharu was born in 1992 and I think that's a Kirarin Revolution promo picture which ran as an anime from 2006 to 2009, so yeah I don't think she was twenty there but I could be wrong.
EDIT: so the ED they recorded was the sixth so the picture is probably from around 2008 I think.
I mean why is a Korean group a fill in when you're arguing about Japanese culture? Especially Moe Idol culture, which is really exclusively Japanese. I dunno if you don't see a functional difference between the peoples or you're just throwing shit to see whatever sticks.
I don't know if I would call them an idol group though.
Though Korea's definition of idol groups changes every week. I think they all have to have a least one rapper now...
Korean girl groups are not the same thing as Japanese idol groups.
That's why I qualified my statement with the word "true." Moe has become sexualized in modern pop culture (specifically anime and games), which is a real shame, as it never USED to be -- but fortunately, there are still some bastions of nonsexual moe to be found here and there, with the (Japanese) pop idol industry remaining overall nonsexual.
True moe is designed to appeal to the viewer/reader's maternal or paternal instinct. You're not supposed to sexually desire the character, but rather regard him/her as you would your own son or daughter (or brother/sister, if you'd prefer), and seek to protect him/her from the evils of the world and preserve his/her innocence for as long as possible.
True moe plays upon another Japanese literary concept, "mono no aware," which states that a thing of beauty is more beautiful when it lacks permanence -- so another part of moe is knowledge that the world is inherently evil and will eventually corrupt this innocent soul, making it important to revel in his/her innocence while you can.
Basically, you know how parents will see their kids being all sweet and innocent and say, "I hope he/she never grows up"? True moe is the embodiment of that feeling.
It is not meant to be sexual in any way whatsoever, though it is sometimes sexualized -- especially in the modern era.
I am personally of the opinion, however, that when it is sexualized, it is no longer true moe.
-Tom
kuroneko0509
Member
I'll take fault for saying East vs West, but still what remains is a culture disconnect and understanding apparently.
Moral Panic
Member
The point I am trying to make (and am clearly failing at) is that there is no "East vs West" mentality here. Everyone knows what a "sexual" costume looks like. Everyone knows what a sexy dance looks like.
MarmaladeChainsaw
Neo Member
I don't think it's very clear that the character is supposed to look cute instead of sexy. She looks like this:
Green Mamba
Member
I think having to tiptoe around grody shit in a game sounds like it would make for a worse experience. So I approve of the removal of shit like Fire Emblem's face touching. If that means that some people who won't buy a Fire Emblem without it aren't being serviced, uh, well, that sounds like a net gain to me.
Clearly, we were not looking at the same image, then, because the character on the E3 badge looks *nothing* like that to me.
-Tom