Same reason GHz/MHz don't mean the same amount of performance on different CPU architectures and horsepower doesn't always tell you exactly how fast a car can go.
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Eurogamer: NX = portable w/ carts, detachable controllers, Tegra, TV Out, no BC, Sept
- Thread starter Wollan
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Same reason GHz/MHz don't mean the same amount of performance on different CPU architectures and horsepower doesn't always tell you exactly how fast a car can go.
Speaking of the JP market, that's where I'm concerned something iPad size won't be a big hit. You go too big with a portable, like make it Wii U GamePad size in that market and I'm concerned it won't take off in droves there in the way Nintendo will probably need it to. 5-6" is my prediction.
BTW, about those detachable controllers. If they truly are two separate controllers as Eurogamer reported, I suspect they'll just be small and simple with a basic analog stick and a few buttons. Hopefully not ludicrously small, but FWIW as others speculated they could slide partially behind the screen and be larger than they appear when taken off.
mugurumakensei
Member
Reasons for 540p screen
1) Better battery life just because it's not having to power as many panel lights.
2) GPU can also downclock fairly substantially further improving battery life while maintaining roughly the same quality otherwise.
3) screen will likely be VITA size (slightly smaller or slightly bigger)
4) assets are easier to develop if you make one texture and then another downsampled for 540p. Asset production pipeline is an important consideration of devs.
720p screen shouldn't really be a consideration. asset production issues, no clean scaling, battery life wouldn't be drastically better than a 1080 screen.
1080p screen has the advantage of handheld and console mode produce the same resolution. however, it means non-resolution variables have to be dropped in order to allow the GPU to downclock for battery longevity.
at this point in time, 540p screen is the best solution for optimizing battery life and allowing for high quality on the go experiences.
1) Better battery life just because it's not having to power as many panel lights.
2) GPU can also downclock fairly substantially further improving battery life while maintaining roughly the same quality otherwise.
3) screen will likely be VITA size (slightly smaller or slightly bigger)
4) assets are easier to develop if you make one texture and then another downsampled for 540p. Asset production pipeline is an important consideration of devs.
720p screen shouldn't really be a consideration. asset production issues, no clean scaling, battery life wouldn't be drastically better than a 1080 screen.
1080p screen has the advantage of handheld and console mode produce the same resolution. however, it means non-resolution variables have to be dropped in order to allow the GPU to downclock for battery longevity.
at this point in time, 540p screen is the best solution for optimizing battery life and allowing for high quality on the go experiences.
It depends entirely on what measure LCGeek is using. By blu's matrix benchmark that octo-core A53 at 1GHz would be pretty damn close to PS4's CPU, and the 750MHz A72s would actually comfortably outperform PS4's 1.6GHz Jaguars by some measures. More importantly, though, everything I stated there was clocked as it would be with handheld thermal/power restrictions. If there's a "docked mode" where clocks increase, then all of those options could clock a lot higher than I have them there (i.e. 2-3x).
I meant to reply to this also just to add to it and say the XLs are about 4.9. As you said, OG is 3.5 and N3DS is 3.9.
I'm sorry, I read it as you saying an 80% decrease in resolution would lead to an 80% increase in framerate when you were just saying that you could use the extra headroom for a higher framerate. My bad.
It's not the first time he seek info where there isn't, like that 900p gfk survey months ago...
The funny thing is that this is how you calculate single-precision GFLOPS: [Number of ALUs] x [clock speed in GHz] x 2
But a 720p screen may be cheaper since it's more common and easier to source. Everything upscales from 720p to 1080p well already anyway. I'm also adamant that 5" is much too small of a screen size for the side controllers to work or to get anything good in terms of performance out of this thing.
Great post. I just wanted to say I agree with exactly what you wrote here and this is precisely what I expect from the HH. Including potentially slide-out or partially obscured controls for the detachable controllers on each side.
I agree. The only reason I personally prefer the smaller size is the pixel density issue with the XL, but with even 540p we wouldn't have that problem anymore.
That sounds really situational. I don't see why something likely 2-3x as thick as your average flagship smartphone would need to run at less than half the clock speed, even with only 4 cores. I also doubt that devs are using that benchmark in game development.
DESTROYA
Member
Even I don't want a iPad size just something a bit bigger than 5".Maybe iPad mini size, personally I would prefer at least a 6"-7"screen .
Forgive my super dumb question in advance, but when looking directly at, say, a Vita, with its 540p screen, when holding the device at the regular length from your face, is it easily discernible to the naked eye that it's not looking at a 720p screen?
borborygmus
Member
High pixel density displays look great. High ppi (pixels per inch) is very discernible. Supposedly 300 ppi is the at the top end of what's discernible to the naked eye, although that's just a number that's thrown around; I'm not sure what the actual upper limit would be (and it depends on the distance from the screen of course). A 5" screen at 720p works out to 293ppi, which is actually still lower than the iPhone 6's 326ppi.
edit: the Vita has a pixel density of ~220ppi
tl;dr: it should be discernible.
Oh, no sweat of course. Thanks man. I agree they should design the HH as future-proof as possible, though surely it will have its own revisions. But customers will be most pleased I'm sure to have the option to upgrade whichever part they prefer to.
Ah, I didn't understand that. So, it will be no more expensive to make the games look automatically better on the console, then. Hopefully they do that. Thanks for the info.
Thanks for the info, Malo. Perhaps the tweeter wasn't talking about NX, then.
What's the sweet spot on a screen size for you?
FWIW, iPad Mini has no controllers on the sides. That size is going to be pretty bulky judging by the Wii U GamePad and its 6.2" screen. I'm not sure how portable that would feel.
I imagine we will finally get GCN games on VC.
I don't think we will get Sunshine HD, though, any more than we've gotten any VC games in HD. 480p as with Wii. I doubt Nintendo wants to out in the herculean effort of having to make their least successful (in sales* and just as a game) 3D Mario fully remade to be a great game. The game has a lot of issues and would require more remaking than any prior HD or 3DS renake.
*Ok technically based on the last numbers we have, 3DW sold .4 M fewer copies, but relative to install base, I think there's no question 3DW was wildly successful in comparison.
According to Wiki, 854x480 (158 ppi).
Thank you for this info! Bearing this in mind, I'm really curious specifically what the discernable difference is for a 520p screen vs. a 720p then, in terms if when the eye is...what's a normal distance when using a game...10 inches from the eye?
Portugeezer
Member
480p (854x480)
Fourth Storm
Member
The high end of the range is the one that makes sense. I thought the report might add to the discussion. You're free to carry on.
Wow. Thanks, bud. Good contribution to the conversation.
I personally love my Wii U but must say the gamepad screen looks like filth after using a retina display smart phone.
Unfoirtunately, I think the controllers would be too small to be usable if the screen is smaller than Wii U's. The ideal size for a pure portable would be 5-5.5".
All benchmarks are situational, and it's entirely possible that a game developer would use a similar benchmark when evaluating new hardware.
The clock speed phone SoCs operate at is irrelevant, as they only clock up to high speeds for very short bursts, and mostly operate at much lower clocks, with most cores disabled. A gaming device is going to need all cores running at constant clock speed, so unless they want a 5 minute battery life or the back of the handheld to melt off in your hands, they're going to have to go a lot lower than the peak clocks of mobile SoCs.
I was personally expecting the NX/3DS successor to have either a 480p or 540p display(trending towards the lower end) when the expectation was roughly equivalent to Wii U powerwise(in the same way 3DS is roughly equivalent to Wii) but it looks like Nintendo might be going quite comfortably above that so I wouldn't really rule out 720p.
It also depends when these decisions were made. If the NX delay was to wait for newer fab process then it was probably a change of decision somewhere along the lines. Up the resolution of the screen could easily have gone hand in hand. Especially if it actually works out cheaper to source 720p screens.
It also depends when these decisions were made. If the NX delay was to wait for newer fab process then it was probably a change of decision somewhere along the lines. Up the resolution of the screen could easily have gone hand in hand. Especially if it actually works out cheaper to source 720p screens.
Agent Unknown
Member
"How do #unity3d peeps deal with HD/SD assets? Running out of VRAM on a super secret potential platform."
Yeah, that doesn't bode well.
That doesn't seem like something LCGeek would be talking about though. Also, in the 3DMark Ice Storm benchmark Jaguar absolutely annihilates any ARM core when both are at the same speed. If the clock speeds are that low, I'm positive that we'll be looking at cores when barely even beat Wii U's.
GhostTrick
Banned
Fourth Storm
Member
Malo, why even bring up 480i? Nobody would make assets for that resolution, regardless of platform. It seems much more likley that he was talking about sub-HD resolutions and not the exact definitions like ED, qHD, etc.
Graphics Horse
Member
The Unity SD/HD/UD 2D asset thing is just a generic term used in multi resolutions AFAIK, the only thing it suggests is that there is some level of multi resolution support planned.
Not when there's two of you playing with different controllers 🤔
Not when there's two of you playing with different controllers 🤔
Cheeseman Battitude
Member
What if all you get is the tablet and controllers? Dock could be sold separately to those who want it. Would keep the price down. Especially if it's the SCD. Or for another choice for cheaper TV play, a wireless HDMI adapter available separately. No graphics gains from the SCD dock but still playable on TV.
My biggest worry from all of this is whether or not the docking theory is even possible. How much would it cost if they did that?
I don't know why, but the whole "dock that will supercharge the console" seems a little off to me. But we never know.
Actually given what we know, it may relate to scaling SD to HD assets but not having easy ways of fitting all that into memory. I fully expect the handheld sceen to be qHD or SD, in such a scenario HD assets make zero sense.
Portugeezer
Member
DF made a video about whether Tegra X1 could emulate GCN/Wii games, and for the most part, it seems that at native 480p GCN seems easily emulated, some games also are fine at 1080p. Other games not so good at 1080p, but then again these are unofficial emulators made by enthusiasts, I am sure Nintendo could probably get achieve the framerates they need.
They made the video private again, I have a 360p version though.
They made the video private again, I have a 360p version though.
Hmm. I'm holding my Moto E sideways right now and it's about the same size as one of the panels on thebside if the Wii U GamePad. Holding it sideways it's an okay size for a secondary controller in a pinch. I can see what you're saying that if it were much smaller it would be too small. What do you mean about a oure portable, though?
Perhaps somehow Eurogamer is wrong about the two separate detachable controllers and it really is a piece one and piece two controller. But then people will lose one side. I guess it probably really is two detachables. But the GamePad I'm convinced is just too damn big for a portable. So I don't know where that leaves us. Perhaps there will be a partially obscured section of the controllers after all.
Also, perhaps the bulkiness of the GamePad ia skewing my perspective.
Well, not knowing how hard he's trting to push the system, we don't know if that bodes poorly or not. ☺
Ah, ok. So they don't actually have to make two separate sets of assets. You and Malo both significantly helped me understand this better. Thank you both.
Regarding two people playing on just the handheld, what's the setup for that? Like a little stand on a table?
I think the marketing would be a mess then. Two many options will be confusing, and not including the dock in the initial SKU will make it hard for customers to appreciate the idea of the idea and value proposition of a HH and console in one.
As another poster said above, merely improving the performance via a dock won't cost any more than just having a dock that serves as an HDMI out (if I understood correctly).
I thought Malo was saying on the previous page that if 540 they'd just use HD assets? Maybe I misunderstood that though. Perhaps those assets would be too much of a drain on the system to display?
Would they really make two sets of assets? Or do you just mean they'd have to scale them to be SD assets instead?
That's great to know. Thank you. FWIW, I don't think Nintendo would bother outputting GCN games above 480p. They could have done so surely with Wii games (or any previous system games) on Wii Unand chose not to.
Graphics Horse
Member
Yes some kind of pop out stand built in according to EG.
Refreshment.01
Member
i already adressed the multiplayer on the go thing already. But why are you asuming this is the key feature of the detachable controllers?
As long as we're really up rumors and sound bites, does anyne have one handy about how the Wii U VC architecture was being designed to be brought forward into future HW? I feel certain I read that once, maybe from Iwata-san.
Ah, I see. Thanks GH. For some reason I assumed in the mock-up that the stand shown was just a peripheral. Did they say somewhere that it was part of the device? Clever design if so.
Ah, I see. Thanks GH. For some reason I assumed in the mock-up that the stand shown was just a peripheral. Did they say somewhere that it was part of the device? Clever design if so.
Well well well, here we are, Nintendo did it again, i'm in the hype train now and i think that i'm gonna buy this console day one if the price really is about 200$....i hope i won't end up like i did with 3DS and WiiU, day one purchase, few months of enjoyment, then sold them due to lack of games and interest to play with those system compared to others
Maybe I misunderstood, but I think in that post he wasn't referring to MP on the go so much as merely the physical size a screen would need to be to have certain size controllers on either side of it. So just a comment on dimensions. Maybe I misread it, though. I do think MP on the go will be a secondary feature but not the key feature. I think the key feature will be two separate controllers you can use at home. Also, another secondary feature as others have pointed out would be the ability to swap in different kinds of controller peripherals for the HH, which speaks to a previous modular controller patent.
So, I suppose it's up on your YouTube channel, or you just saved it? Anyway, I hope DF makes it public again soon, I'm interested
I still think that 540p makes the most sense if there is also somewhat more powerful home console that plays all the same games but at 1080p. Same applies if there is some kind of dock with additional GPU/CPU/RAM, but I don't really think such a solution is likely.
I'd also imagine that in (say) two years time they could make an XL handheld with a 720p screen.
I'd also imagine that in (say) two years time they could make an XL handheld with a 720p screen.
But Konami, Square Enix, Koei Tecmo, Ubisoft and Sony told me 540p was HD.
It turns out that was off, but my point still somewhat stands. Unfortunately I can't link directly, but if you scroll down these pages to the Ice Storm Unlimited Physics scores you'll see that the AMD A6-5200 (quad-core, 2GHz Jaguar) scores 25304 points, while the Tegra X1's (how relevant) 1.9 GHz Cortex A-72's score is 24349 in the Shield TV (so nobody can claim that it's throttling). This means that the IPC is virtually identical in this gaming-based benchmark, so a 750MHz A-72 isn't even in the same league as a 1.6GHz Jaguar.
I'm not. I'm concerned that they'll be too small to be used comfortably, period.
Refreshment.01
Member
No, he was talking about screen sizes in terms of visibility. Else it would have been a rather poor wording on his part, since in the scenario you propose here, Mucho would be talking about "physical dimensions" of the device. The physical dimensions are independent (to some extent) of screen size when considereing the various degrees of bezel Nintendo can apply.
i agree on your take on the controllers and multiplay on the go as a secondary feature. Also there's the advantage of offering a "free degrees of freedom" controller (ala Wii) when the console is docked.
i wouldn't like for Nintendo to manufacture different attachments. Even more, i want them to be exactly the same on either side. This keeps things simple and homogeneous in terms of the concept/interface and simple in terms of manufacturing costs and retail also. The same exact pieces could be sold separately as extra controllers for multiplayer and likely cheaper since the manufacturing costs are reduce because they produce a lesser amount of the same components.
However, they could for example, manufacture speciality controllers. Think of the Super SAmash GC controllers.
Portugeezer
Member
So, I suppose it's up on your YouTube channel, or you just saved it? Anyway, I hope DF makes it public again soon, I'm interested
I saved it. I'm just being respectful to them which is why I haven't uploaded it anywhere, it's a pretty simple video anyway and I suspect they are just waiting for a specific time to make it public again. Maybe if they take really long I was share it, just because I want to keep discussing NX stuff.
vasametropolis
Member
They need a backwards compatibility play for this thing... sounds like emulation could (optimistically) be on the table up to Wii. This leaves out Wii U, but I guess they could port their own titles? They had like.. 4? LOL.
On a separate note, I feel like the games have to support up to at least 1080p30 (in console mode). 1080p is already old news, and anyone who owns a big enough 1080p TV knows that sub native res content looks like trash on it. 900p would be "alright." Somebody hooks up to a 4K TV? I shudder.
On a separate note, I feel like the games have to support up to at least 1080p30 (in console mode). 1080p is already old news, and anyone who owns a big enough 1080p TV knows that sub native res content looks like trash on it. 900p would be "alright." Somebody hooks up to a 4K TV? I shudder.
James Scott
Banned
We've heard they're planning or at least considering porting some Wii U games. Smash 4 has been thrown around the most after Zelda. I can imagine games like Bayonetta and DKTF getting ports as well.
BC will most likely be in place on the Virtual Console with at least what the Wii U and 3DS got (GBA/C, SNES, N64, NES, etc)
I'm not sure if it's powerful enough to run Wii through emulation, but GameCube is probably likely?
I'd love to see HD emulators for it. Nintendo at least thought about it with DS emulation since it's an option built in, but disabled in the emulator.
Though 480/540p Wii or GCN on the handheld would probably look pretty fantastic.
A screen in the area of 3.1" to 5" indicates to me a direct replacement of the 3DS, rather than a tablet that shall cover both 3DS and WiiU.
Which is fine by me, since a tablet would be the worst of both worlds: Too large to easily carry around and too slow to be a replacement for a game console.
I have my fingers crossed that this indicates that Nintendo are working on direct replacements for 3DS and WiiU as we speak, and that this rumour of a hybrid system is just a horrible misunderstanding.
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