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Fighting Games Weekly | Feb 9-15 | Mikrotransaktions
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
I probably won't get to go to Evo because it turns out my wife is 10 weeks pregnant.
Congrats!
The only Mega Man I ever wanna see in a fighting game is the Mega Man from the animated series, one-liners and all.
He would be a command throw character.
He would be a command throw character.
irfaanator
Banned
I probably won't get to go to Evo because it turns out my wife is 10 weeks pregnant.
TWILT, I felt you on that "Who is Marth?" moment in Melee.
Sakurai has specifically said customs aren't tested for balance. There is some screwy stuff there.
grats man!
Anyone who knew anything about the game knew that Zero would be the best character in the game based on that changelist.
A lot of debate was around Vergil and I was firmly in the camp that this character was OP. People tried to dismiss me by saying stuff like "BUT JAGO AND YIPES ARE SAYING THIS CHARACTER IS NOT THAT GOOD SO YOU ARE WRONG!"
Dormammu was obviously buffed and a lot stronger but he didn't scream top 5 to me at the time but top 10-15 for sure. Still is and already won an EVO so he has done the work.
Only two characters I was wrong on were Morrigan (and like 99% of the community) and Dante. I thought Dante would still be top 5 in Ultimate despite the nerfs but he is now top 10. I also thought that Strider and RR would be better point characters than they actually ended up being (though still strong characters because of anchor potential and support value).
I was also sure that Wolverine was not dropping too much in the tier lists either despite people like God's Beard swearing that he won't even be viable anymore.
Morrigan is kind of a special case though since she's only top tier if she have missiles assist. Kind of hard to see before the game's release. Actually if not for Chris making it work, she wouldn't have been considered broken until... When was the first time someone other than Chris made it work in a big tournament?
Dieminion was getting consistent top 8s around the time ChrisG's Morrigan was doing work at tournaments. He wasn't even using Missiles.
I don't have a link to this but when Ultimate was first out, Dieminion and ChrisG were swearing up and down that Morrigan was top 5 in the game. No one believed them at the time because Dieminion was also saying stuff like Strange was bottom 5.
in a big tournament? dieminion started placing a bunch/taking out dudes with his team of joe/strange/morrigan quite early into the game's lifespan while chris was picking it as a troll vs. him in grand finals at big two, which is the origin of how chris started using her
edit: beaten aaaa
well as an addition: remember 'fatneto'
because lol
those changelist days were wild
Changelist days of UMVC3 were the best. So much salt to flavor my popcorn those days.
Fatneto was coined by RayRay.
She isn't top 5 without Missiles but she's still damn good (like say Morrigan with Vergil Strider or Morrigan with Dante Strider). And the whole "not top 5 without particular" assist is not a good metric to use in this game. Zero is not top 5 without Jam Session. Vergil is not top 5 without XF. Nova is not top without a horizontal assist. But resources exist to be used in the game and thus Morrigan will get played with Missiles and you have to deal with it.
Fatneto was coined by RayRay.
Back then no character was "broken". Vergil wasn't winning anything, Zero wasn't winning anything, Dante was played as point more than support, Wesker was the most used character etc. No one needed to look at Dieminion's Morrigan to know that she was good because they could look at ChrisG's and even without ChrisG's Morrigan, Dieminion's 2nd rate Morrigan put in enough work to make people notice.
She isn't top 5 without Missiles but she's still damn good (like say Morrigan with Vergil Strider or Morrigan with Dante Strider). And the whole "not top 5 without particular" assist is not a good metric to use in this game. Zero is not top 5 without Jam Session. Vergil is not top 5 without XF. Nova is not top without a horizontal assist. But resources exist to be used in the game and thus Morrigan will get played with Missiles and you have to deal with it.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
I probably won't get to go to Evo because it turns out my wife is 10 weeks pregnant.
'Grats dude.
Professor Beef
Banned
Too bad Tron came from a shit series though.
I remember some mentioned she's broken with missiles(on SRK maybe) but no one actually demonstrated it on a high level until few months into the game.
I've never played an MML game.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Huh?
well the soul fist patterns. i just call it bullet hell with or without missiles.
Again, there was a lot of stuff that didn't come to fruition for a long time even though it was known for a long time on SRK and other places.
Zero didn't win a major until one and a half year after the game's release. Vergil the same. Nova/Spencer/Strange wasn't maximized until Combofiend/Nemo used it properly. Hell people didn't know how good Doom's Plasma Beam really was until people like PRRog started pairing it with Wolverine for ridiculous rushdown with protection.
This is just how things are. By now most of the theory in Marvel 3 has come to fruition with the exception of Viper. Most theory crafters still consider her top 5 broken territory but it has not been displayed in matches. There aren't enough good Viper players and the few that are don't travel enough to display the potential of the character (plus gain experience) or don't play the most optimum Viper team. The character has just too high of an execution barrier with very little margin of error.
Way to steal TWILT's spotlight thunder.I probably won't get to go to Evo because it turns out my wife is 10 weeks pregnant.
Congrats!
Yeah, but it definitely wasn't as good in Vanilla. Lots of small buffs helped her fireball flight game.
Edit: I'm still sad how Tron turned out. She was fun to have on a team in 2 (I mean on point, not just projectile assist lol), and I really tried making a team with her in 3. Once Ultimate changes happened and the Morrigan stuff, I just sort of gave up on making her work
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
well the soul fist patterns. i just call it bullet hell with or without missiles.
Oh I thought she got the flight cancel in ultimate.
but I guess those were the big buffs
More like remember UMvC3's XF level 4 Wesker and how people were asking for nerfs
She had it in vanilla, don't think it was 1 frame though.
Also, shoutout to Morrigan being more popular than Darkstalkers.
I thought they changed the frames on her unfly and stuff too in Ultimate? Someone can correct me since it's been awhile.
it makes me sad dudes don't know how strong she is overall
cuz god damn she is powerful and versatile. the skill cap for her shit is so high and she still functions insanely well at such a mediocre lvl of tech application lol
have you ever gotten to play vs florida shoultz's theory morrigan or whatever? i've seen some of the stuff he's talked about in action by some of the dudes here (edit:locally i mean) and i shudder to think about an actual good player who cares about maxing that character out playing her
also morrigan's flight startup got reduced to 10f in ultimate, it used to be 18f iirc. unfly was still 0 but the 10f flight startup helps alot in shortening gaps
shell kick got buffed a fuckton too, that thing used to be slow as hell with a garbage hitbox
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Decreased total frames for Flight.
No she had flight cancel before as well and that was known since basically day 1 of getting vanilla MVC3.
The 3 main changes that made bullet spam much better were:
*Increased fireball damage
*Increased fireball hit stun
*Decreased total frames of flight
More fireball damage = more chip on block/damage = more meter gained for more AV activations.
More hit stun on fireballs allowed Morrigan to do those cheesy full screen fireball juggles for 90% health with no risk. More hit stun on fireballs also meant that if you got hit by one then you were more likely to be in a position to block another fireball and it's just a snowball effect of getting hit by fireballs -> blocking fireballs -> taking more chip -> Morrigan builds more meter to keep the AV going.
Decreased total frames of flight allowed the bullet spam to be done faster. Someone did the match in the main thread and the effect of even these frame changes resulted in more fireballs produced while making it even harder to hit Morrigan as she is more safe. If you try to do the bullet spam in Vanilla then you will notice that there is this small pause in between the Soul Fists even if you do it as fast as possible.
Other buffs were solid too in particular the buff to the Shell Kick and the new Soul Drain move. Most of these buffs looked really benign by themselves because no one really accounted for Astral Vision as something like 20k damage increase on fireballs is really more like a 40k damage output increase when you think about it.
The 3 main changes that made bullet spam much better were:
*Increased fireball damage
*Increased fireball hit stun
*Decreased total frames of flight
More fireball damage = more chip on block/damage = more meter gained for more AV activations.
More hit stun on fireballs allowed Morrigan to do those cheesy full screen fireball juggles for 90% health with no risk. More hit stun on fireballs also meant that if you got hit by one then you were more likely to be in a position to block another fireball and it's just a snowball effect of getting hit by fireballs -> blocking fireballs -> taking more chip -> Morrigan builds more meter to keep the AV going.
Decreased total frames of flight allowed the bullet spam to be done faster. Someone did the match in the main thread and the effect of even these frame changes resulted in more fireballs produced while making it even harder to hit Morrigan as she is more safe. If you try to do the bullet spam in Vanilla then you will notice that there is this small pause in between the Soul Fists even if you do it as fast as possible.
Other buffs were solid too in particular the buff to the Shell Kick and the new Soul Drain move. Most of these buffs looked really benign by themselves because no one really accounted for Astral Vision as something like 20k damage increase on fireballs is really more like a 40k damage output increase when you think about it.
Shoultz was the guy that made me learn Spidey/Morrigan/Tron in MvC2 on the side after watching vids lol
And I see. I got it mixed up then, but I knew her flight was changed in Ultimate.
Flying High
Member
I love theory MAHVEL, remember the "broken buff" that wesker got with his sunglasses mechanic? And he was able to get 700k no meter no assist or x-factor because of it.
Also, one change changes an overall character, Captain America gets an OTG, he becomes the most easy to use characters in the game while in vanilla he was one of the hard to use characters in the game, and haggar became an assist only character to a real threat, with his TOD, and anti-rushdown character design, all because of getting an OTG.
There are more characters I wish would of gotten fixed better or unnerfed, like Arthur, his changes help him TONS of it, but because of the Gold Armor breakage he is underplayed because he dies if it breaks, and She-Hulk and Tron, both gotten nerf a ton(j.H nerf to tron, She-Hulk a heavy character, and no change to her wall bounce in her hyper).
Characters then there are characters are not designed for marvel that need to be fixed(Iron Fist, Nemesis, Ghost Rider, Hsien-Ko) or need to be tweaked abit to become a real marvel player(Phoenix Wright).
Other things would be system changes IE: TAC System, X-Factor, and Hitbox changes. And also top tier changes that would try to balance the game out better.
Also, one change changes an overall character, Captain America gets an OTG, he becomes the most easy to use characters in the game while in vanilla he was one of the hard to use characters in the game, and haggar became an assist only character to a real threat, with his TOD, and anti-rushdown character design, all because of getting an OTG.
There are more characters I wish would of gotten fixed better or unnerfed, like Arthur, his changes help him TONS of it, but because of the Gold Armor breakage he is underplayed because he dies if it breaks, and She-Hulk and Tron, both gotten nerf a ton(j.H nerf to tron, She-Hulk a heavy character, and no change to her wall bounce in her hyper).
Characters then there are characters are not designed for marvel that need to be fixed(Iron Fist, Nemesis, Ghost Rider, Hsien-Ko) or need to be tweaked abit to become a real marvel player(Phoenix Wright).
Other things would be system changes IE: TAC System, X-Factor, and Hitbox changes. And also top tier changes that would try to balance the game out better.
missed this but:
busby might be traveling to more majors this year instead of just two and EVO. he recently got sponsored and has actually started playing again b/c of that. he's been on the grind too so you might see some of that stupid focus stuff on stream
in terms of her matchups/tiering or whatever, unfortunately both zero and morrigan pose pretty significant problems for her so idk if she can break into the top b/c of that.
beyond those two she is pretty damn good against the rest of the cast, especially anchors (hopefully yall get to see busby's really stupid looking guaranteed unblockable setup at whatever big major is next because seriously it looks duuuuuumb)
Nemesis is designed for Marvel but his problem is that his armor moves don't start up in time to be effective against rushdown. Just that change along with the ability to aim the rocket up or down forward would be huge for him. Also his hypers are garbage in terms of scaling and utility.
Iron Fist is a SF character not a Marvel character. His rekka system is poorly designed as is his chi system. Characters needs a damn redesign or a bunch of new options to even be usable.
Ghost Rider is also poorly designed. He's a zoner that loses badly to actual zoners and does even worse against rushdown/teleporter. His chains are no threat as they do no chip. Dhalsim his SF equivalent has way, way more mobility options than GR despite being in a far less mobile game. The character's playstyle is also dry as fuck, if he was top tier he would get more hate than Morrigan.
Phoenix Wright will always suck as long as TA mode is hidden behind RNG and the mode itself was on a timer.
Iron Fist is a SF character not a Marvel character. His rekka system is poorly designed as is his chi system. Characters needs a damn redesign or a bunch of new options to even be usable.
Ghost Rider is also poorly designed. He's a zoner that loses badly to actual zoners and does even worse against rushdown/teleporter. His chains are no threat as they do no chip. Dhalsim his SF equivalent has way, way more mobility options than GR despite being in a far less mobile game. The character's playstyle is also dry as fuck, if he was top tier he would get more hate than Morrigan.
Phoenix Wright will always suck as long as TA mode is hidden behind RNG and the mode itself was on a timer.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Put Iron Fist in GG!
It's Jam
So yesterday was my birthday and I ended up getting a GC controller and a copy of Melee because of it :x
Also high level Persona is fun
Happy birthday, Anne! High level persona scares the pants off of me.
I probably won't get to go to Evo because it turns out my wife is 10 weeks pregnant.
Congrats! And welcome to stage 1-1. Everything you knew before this was just a training stage.
Happy B-Day annel, better late than never!
Coffeeling
Member
Can we make dead horse thread title suggestions a bannable offense?
On other stuff, I read through Pat Miller's SF Howto ebook to see if I can recommend it and all I can say is that damn, that thing is good.
Doesn't help that I ended up watching XMania and want to play ST now. Need to follow Chairman Mao's and Master Arg's footsteps.
Just wanted to confirm (anecdotally) that this is totally true. I went to NEC12, the first 'major' with Ultimate (the game was not even 3 weeks old at this point). I asked Chris who his Top 5 were, and Morrigan was the most surprising answer. He explained that she had gotten a lot of buffs since Vanilla. I took his word for it, since nobody touched her in Vanilla.
It's safe to say he proved his point.
Coffeeling
Member
Seems pretty clear to me that they're planning on using DLC/microtransactions to replace the Super/Ultra editions. I'm ok with the way KI does it. The only times DLC/microtransactions were really scummy last-gen to me were SFxTK with gems and Arcsys for $8 characters then a new version at full price a few months later.
I have no issue with DOA and their tons of costume DLC. That's no different than Idolmaster, and when I play fighting games, I want to play dressup.
I think all companies do that to some degree. Even Sega did with VF (did Akira ever suck?) Often the best chars end up that way by accident but not always.
As for the Smash Customs, if the issue is time to set up the customs, why not have a pre-set for each character and use that (unsure if that would work). This could also be used as a balancing tool down the road if needed if a char needs to be buffed or nerfed.
SquirrelSoup
Member
Enzo, you could add
2015 Dengeki Bunko Fighting Climax (NA/EU)
2015 J-Stars Victory VS+ (NA/EU)
to upcoming releases.
2015 Dengeki Bunko Fighting Climax (NA/EU)
2015 J-Stars Victory VS+ (NA/EU)
to upcoming releases.
Spuck-uk
Banned
Coffeeling
Member
Character strength has little to do with whether the design itself is dumb. Leo is a lottery machine whose lottery works due to a crapton of moves with unusual properties. Pretty much like Fuerte in that regard.
You can build a lottery machine character much more elegantly, like I-No for example: Her tools are basic, normal things everyone has but the hoverdash enables her to run high/low mixups that are fast and dangerous. But because the tools are basic, there's no "go to the lab to figure out what you were even hit by / wtf he is even doing" type effect - you can plainly see what she's doing. Same thing with Millia, whose stuff is completely normal, just with a couple startup frames shaved so it's unseeable.
Basically, it's elegantly using a game's conventions to achieve an end and artificially, forcibly constructing a certain kind of gameplay.
You can see similar things where the makers of the RTS game RYSE specifically made mechanics for bluffing when they're completely unnecessary - the bogstandard mechanics of the genre already have bluffing as an emergent property, but they somehow felt the need to make it explicit, mechanize it.
Another similar thing is between KI's combo breakers and Smash's DI. Both serve the same end, but combo breakers feel really clunky and tacked-on as a design - they basically just insert a mind game into combos and go "ooh, we genius". DI inserts the mindgame/combo break thing into the game much more elegantly.
Besides, Leo's backturned stance looks dumb and ugly.
Do you mean the lion guy from guilty gear or Eleonor from tekken, either way you are correct I wanna know which correct you are.
This, and it wouldn't have been as much of a problem if not for him being a DLC character. At first I didn't know about his stance immunity to grabs, I suspected it after playing few Leos, but then the horde of bad online Leo players getting grabbed on my wake up convinced me other wise. I had to eventually ask some Leo players what the fuck is going on. >_<
I wouldn't say he's this game's El Fuerte though, that's Slayer(god help us all with his buffs). Leo is a bit on the slow side so you get to dance around him a bit, until the first touch, then it's the carnival of stupid.
Pretty much at least half of the current Tekken cast right there.
Man... Fuck arbitrary hurdles to learning match ups.
Somehow the start of this tread has gotten me to start doing something I swore off years ago: theory craft Marvel teams. I'm curious to go back and see if my execution has improved enough over the last few years to play MorriDoom now. Guess I know what I'll be doing after work tonight.