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[rookiejet]

I probably won't get to go to Evo because it turns out my wife is 10 weeks pregnant.

Congratulations, Karsticles! Best wishes to you and your family.

So yesterday was my birthday and I ended up getting a GC controller and a copy of Melee because of it :x)

Belated Happy Birthday, AnneIFrank. I wish I got cool games-related gifts for my birthday :<

On other stuff, I read through Pat Miller's SF Howto ebook to see if I can recommend it and all I can say is that damn, that thing is good.

I second this recommendation, it's a great short read that will give you like a 3x boost to xp gain for free!

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I think your familiarity and understanding of the old dumb is diminishing your judgement of it relative to the new dumb. To my new eyes, he's actually been of the more straightforward to understand characters in the cast. Meanwhile Zato is still poking me in the butt with his unblockables, and his dog is jumping at me from all sorts of places, like wtf (unblockable pokes in the butt are hardly elegant, man). I agree with your idea for the character and moveset design if the context were different (and more sane).
(Also you're overselling the uniqueness and depth of his moveset.)

I wouldn't say he's this game's El Fuerte though, that's Slayer(god help us all with his buffs). Leo is a bit on the slow side so you get to dance around him a bit, until the first touch, then it's the carnival of stupid.

I love this description because it's how I see Guilty Gear: a carnival of stupid that somehow holds together and ends being a really good show

 

[Scrub Mcgrubb]

Not sure how many people were looking forward to playing Mortal Kombat X on PC... but someone finally got them to admit PC is being done by HighVoltage again- https://twitter.com/lover_of_tacos/status/564127649220808704

Certainly deflated my hype quite a bit... hoping for at least semi-playable netcode

 

[Coffeeling]

I think your familiarity and understanding of the old dumb is diminishing your judgement of it relative to the new dumb. To my new eyes, he's actually been of the more straightforward to understand characters in the cast. Meanwhile Zato is still poking me in the butt with his unblockables, and his dog is jumping at me from all sorts of places, like wtf (unblockable pokes in the butt are hardly elegant, man). I agree with your idea for the character and moveset design if the context were different (and more sane).
(Also you're overselling the uniqueness and depth of his moveset.)

I started Guilty Gear with Xrd, I don't think familiarity with the old dumbness has anything to do with it. I just think the way Leo is designed is ugly, clunky and inelegant and that you can accomplish a similar gameplay end with a far cleaner one.

 

[Azure J]

This, and it wouldn't have been as much of a problem if not for him being a DLC character. At first I didn't know about his stance immunity to grabs, I suspected it after playing few Leos, but then the horde of bad online Leo players getting grabbed on my wake up convinced me other wise. I had to eventually ask some Leo players what the fuck is going on. >_<

I wouldn't say he's this game's El Fuerte though, that's Slayer(god help us all with his buffs). Leo is a bit on the slow side so you get to dance around him a bit, until the first touch, then it's the carnival of stupid.

You and Coffeeling are really eloquent at expressing some things about leo that I've been slowly beginning to realize I don't like. :lol

I mean, I guess I deserve it being an Elphelt main, but at the very least, you see my bullshit and you know it's bullshit. Some of Leo's stuff comes out so fast or so invisibly at times that it really does feel like you're playing slots more than you're playing a fighting game.

His command grab helm splitter has a ground pound hitbox behind him. It is immensely jarring.

 

[Coffeeling]

You and Coffeeling are really eloquent at expressing some things about leo that I've been slowly beginning to realize I don't like. :lol

I mean, I guess I deserve it being an Elphelt main, but at the very least, you see my bullshit and you know it's bullshit. Some of Leo's stuff comes out so fast or so invisibly at times that it really does feel like you're playing slots more than you're playing a fighting game.

His command grab helm splitter has a ground pound hitbox behind him. It is immensely jarring.

That it can't be seen isn't really a good reason to attack him - the game is an endless treasure trove of unseeable mixups from oppressive situations.

 

[Malice215]

Some hot SCV action from Japan happened over the weekend for those who are interested.

http://maliceisgdlk.blogspot.com/2015/02/ryuohsen-5-results.html

 

[Azure J]

That it can't be seen isn't really a good reason to attack him - the game is an endless treasure trove of unseeable mixups from oppressive situations.

It's not even about attacking him really, sometimes you will be evading him and the best mixup in the game for him is to air dash over you then input it cross up since you can't block both directions and then there's the ground pound hitbox I mentioned.

Again, this isn't the big reason why I personally find his design bonkers, but just a little note.

 

[Coffeeling]

It's not even about attacking him really, sometimes you will be evading him and the best mixup in the game for him is to air dash over you then input it cross up since you can't block both directions and then there's the ground pound hitbox I mentioned.

Again, this isn't the big reason why I personally find his design bonkers, but just a little note.

I mean attacking him as a design, not ingame

 

[Spuck-uk]

Do you mean the lion guy from guilty gear or Eleonor from tekken, either way you are correct I wanna know which correct you are.

I play both, so both. You have good taste.

Plus, like, how can you even be mad at this:

 

[Azure J]

I mean attacking him as a design, not ingame

Oh, lol fair point.

 

[Zissou]

Elphelt is factually the most bullshit character in the current version of Xrd.

 

[Coffeeling]

Plus, like, how can you even be mad at this:

If you have noticed, my sole aesthetical complaint thus far is that his backturned stance stuff looks horrible.

The rest has been about mechanics and the relation of those mechanics to his visuals. Gameplay.

Elphelt is factually the most bullshit character in the current version of Xrd.

And this relates to complaints about Leo's design how? You can design bullshit well and horribly. GG has tons of well-designed bullshit, and then it has Leo.

 

[K.Sabot]

More Zooping from Lord Knight

 

[IntelliHeath]

I probably won't get to go to Evo because it turns out my wife is 10 weeks pregnant.

Congrats!

 

[Zissou]

And this relates to complaints about Leo's design how? You can design bullshit well and horribly. GG has tons of well-designed bullshit, and then it has Leo.

Was directed at Azure J for maining Elph while agreeing with your Leo complaints. That's like a Zero player complaining that Hulk is bullshit

 

[Azure J]

Elphelt's bullshit in a nutshell:

- Pineberry's neutral presence & combo breaking potential (either through rebounds or detonation as someone combos Elph);
- Shotgun damage
- Sniper rifle unblockable at max reticle charge

Everything else that you get hit with is your fault and it isn't as if she has many things that you can't visually resolve on her normal and special attack animations.

I play both, so both. You have good taste.

Plus, like, how can you even be mad at this:

Things like this make me have the strangest love-hate relationship with the character. He has the best win animations in current fighting games free. The teapot one is wonderful.

"GIMMIE this motherfuckin' earl grey nigga"

 

[Coffeeling]

Was directed at Azure J for maining Elph while agreeing with your Leo complaints. That's like a Zero player complaining that Hulk is bullshit

I main Elphelt and want(ed, if the patch stays as it is ;_ to learn Zato, so...

 

[Zissou]

I main Elphelt and want(ed, if the patch stays as it is ;_ to learn Zato, so...

Well I feel no sympathy for either of you then, haha

 

[Spuck-uk]

If you have noticed, my sole aesthetical complaint thus far is that his backturned stance stuff looks horrible.

The rest has been about mechanics and the relation of those mechanics to his visuals. Gameplay.



And this relates to complaints about Leo's design how? You can design bullshit well and horribly. GG has tons of well-designed bullshit, and then it has Leo.

Leos backturned stance looks amazing, he's totally arrogant enough to think he can beat you with his back turned. I guess you didn't like Ukyo either?

Every character has gimmicky bullshit, if you play more you'll realise this (Faust 5D for one shining, infuriating example that destroys Leos stance).

His stance isn't throw invulnerable, just some of his moves from it, else he'd have zero pressure on wakeup.

 

[RockTurtle]

we needd mroe elphelt designs in games

 

[Coffeeling]

Well I feel no sympathy for either of you then, haha

Well, that's the thing. I hate Leo as a design, not the fact that he has bullshit. I'm fine with all manner of bullshit - unseeable command grabs, Sol/Elph/Zato katame, Millia mixups, I-No mixups. All is better than what Leo has and I'm fine with it.

Somehow whenever I voice complaints about Leo's or Fuerte's design people think it's a power level complaint. It never is. Always, always about design, and wanting good design instead of shitty design. The only reason I'd ever want their power level to be abysmal is so no one would bother to play them, because they are game design cancer.

Leos backturned stance looks amazing, he's totally arrogant enough to think he can beat you with his back turned. I guess you didn't like Ukyo either?

I hate quick draw characters because they're stupid katana fanboyism. Quick drawing technique is a way to minimize disadvantage if you get ambushed, it has no actual benefit at all. And then we get these characters like Ukyo and Patroklos that constantly resheathe their sword. It's idiotic as can be. The archetype is cool but would be far better implemented as a stance character that has to work to draw the blade at the start of the round instead of all that resheathing nonsense.

Every character has gimmicky bullshit, if you play more you'll realise this (Faust 5D for one shining, infuriating example that destroys Leos stance).

His stance isn't throw invulnerable, just some of his moves from it, else he'd have zero pressure on wakeup.

See above. Elegance of design, not the design being bullshit. You can design bullshit in a manner that's beautiful and elegant, or in a manner that's heavily exception-based, unintuitive and clunky. I-No, Zato, Millia are the former, Leo the latter.

 

[Spuck-uk]

Show us on the doll where the Leo player bodied you.

Since you play Elphelt, would you like his design more if he had gigantic fake tits?

 

[Zissou]

Show us on the doll where the Leo player bodied you.

Since you play Elphelt, would you like his design more if he had gigantic fake tits?

I'm not just dismissing his complaints on the assumption that he lost to a Leo- I'd rather discuss the (character moveset-design) issue at hand.

 

[Azure J]

Well I feel no sympathy for either of you then, haha

But I'm an Elphelt main that actively advocates her losing her biggest sources of derp!

The things I love about her are shotgun pressure, her ability to shut down mashing, and maneuverability. I'm not a big fan of her unblockables and as much as I LOVE me some damage, I can understand that people hate getting put into big damage situations with lots of down time while they hold that combo, so I'd be cool with a scaling nerf.

Spoiler

I just want my character better normalized so that people stop hating me for playing what I like. :'(

Edit: Coffeeling making me so sad with that quick draw archetype comment. That's the type of fighting game character I love most right there.

I'm curious as to your opinions on Johnny now. :lol

 

[Zissou]

Pineberry as a neutral tool is my only real problem! If the loc test stuff sticks, that's gone, so I'm happy enough

 

[Coffeeling]

Pineberry as a neutral tool is my only real problem! If the loc test stuff sticks, that's gone, so I'm happy enough

It's the thing that I love most about the character, shotgun damage and unblockable setups be damned. I just want my Pineberry+buttons+mobility ;__;

 

[Spuck-uk]

I hate quick draw characters because they're stupid katana fanboyism. Quick drawing technique is a way to minimize disadvantage if you get ambushed, it has no actual benefit at all. And then we get these characters like Ukyo and Patroklos that constantly resheathe their sword. It's idiotic as can be. The archetype is cool but would be far better implemented as a stance character that has to work to draw the blade at the start of the round instead of all that resheathing nonsense.





See above. Elegance of design, not the design being bullshit. You can design bullshit in a manner that's beautiful and elegant, or in a manner that's heavily exception-based, unintuitive and clunky. I-No, Zato, Millia are the former, Leo the latter.

Do you think Elphelt has an 'Elegant' design? She QuickDraws a shotgun and rifle from who knows where, then they disappear again.


360 no-scope bridal express

 

[Zissou]

Pineberry is like having hidden missiles assist... which also snuffs out other projectiles completely... which you can put on screen with pretty minimal risk. It's dumb! It's like if Faust's item toss always gave you a hammer that transformed into the bomb once it landed on the ground... but the bomb couldn't hit Faust. Actually, give me that, and I'm cool leaving Elph as-is

 

[Tripon]

So apparently, Nintendo doesn't own the rights to Earthbound music. As explained by Sp00ky on yesterdays Smash Attack

 

[Spuck-uk]

FWIW the only design I really dislike in Xrd is Zato-1.

There's no consistent theme, sharks buzzsaws, gremlins and all. The puppet characters in BB looked better while having the same shtick.

 

[fader]

FWIW the only design I really dislike in Xrd is Zato-1.

There's no consistent theme, sharks buzzsaws, gremlins and all. The puppet characters in BB looked better while having the same shtick.

 

[Zissou]

But Carl and Relius look like some combination of Prince and an effeminate power ranger- they are some of worst designed chars (visually-speaking) in BB (which is saying a fucking lot!). Meanwhile, Zato looks pretty awesome.

 

[Village]

I also agree, I do not like Zato-1 but for a different reason, I like the puppet more than the guy. I'm not familiar with guilty gear or BB lore or characters that much at all. But I kind of wish the puppet was his own guy so he could be like twelve from 3rd strike. The guy just looks not as cool, like some weird SnM Dio.

 

[fader]

I also agree, I do not like Zato-1 but for a different reason, I like the puppet more than the guy. I'm not familiar with guilty gear or BB lore or characters that much at all. But I kind of wish the puppet was his own guy so he could be like twelve from 3rd strike.

naw. The puppet is meant to act as a foil to Zato, either one of them separate wouldn't really work for the long run.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Who has the best deal on P4A2?

 

[Spuck-uk]

But Carl and Relius look like some combination of Prince and an effeminate power ranger- they are some of worst designed chars (visually-speaking) in BB (which is saying a fucking lot!). Meanwhile, Zato looks pretty awesome.

If anything, Relius looks like a more fabulous Tuxedo Mask, and I'm very okay with that.

Then again I always pick the pink colour for Leo as well :3

 

[Kimosabae]

I can almost agree with the Zato criticism. The overall concept is cool though.

The aesthetic design that still really grinds my gears is Millia's. In-and-of-itself, it's great, but it's an awful "Millia Rage" design. I hate it. Everything she does and says - everything she represents, compliments her XX outfit better. What inspires Team Red's decision making here is still a mystery to me. She's a foreign body onscreen, whenever I see her.


Leo is frustrating, but I appreciate the fact that he really takes me out of my comfort zone and forces me to learn more about the game to get a handle on him. I'll likely play him a bit in the future.

*edit*

Yo, Kars... "Kimosabae Jr." I've saved you much stress. You can thank me in 7 months.

 

[Sayad]

Elphelt's bullshit in a nutshell:

- Pineberry's neutral presence & combo breaking potential (either through rebounds or detonation as someone combos Elph);
- Shotgun damage
- Sniper rifle unblockable at max reticle charge

Everything else that you get hit with is your fault and it isn't as if she has many things that you can't visually resolve on her normal and special attack animations.

6H, never forget 6H. >_<

I play both, so both. You have good taste.

Plus, like, how can you even be mad at this:

Seeing this animation is what keep me going while fighting Leo, it's so boss...

And yes I see it a lot. ;p

 

[Village]

naw. The puppet is meant to act as a foil to Zato, either one of them separate wouldn't really work for the long run.

That sucks, because the puppet would be way cooler with out the guy.

The thing with familiar characters is, when you mess the Stand up, you can still be ok because its kind of cool on like a fundamental level even id you don't like the design. But when you mess the guy up, thats the guy getting all the billing and who you are staring at all the time.

That's why i am really fond of JOJO and personal characters because they seem to get both very very right

 

[Kalamari]

Congrats, Karst!


Name suggestions.
Boy: Vergil
Girl: Morrigan

 

[Coffeeling]

Congrats, Karst!


Name suggestions.
Boy: Vergil
Girl: Morrigan

Boy: Victor Vergil
Girl: Jean Morrigan

XD

 

[SolarKnight]

Having never fought another Leo and always losing to everyone here I can't relate at all to any talk about bullshit he has and it feels like I'm having the biggest case of character bias not recognizing it

The guy just looks not as cool, like some weird SnM Dio.

It's funny because with his voice actor you can pretend that's what he literally is

Edit: Oh shit almost forgot, congrats Karst! Shame we won't see you at Evo but that's great news

 

[Anne]

This conversation is hella what lol I'm at school so can't say much beyond "what?"

 

[Needlecrash]

Good shit Karasticles!

So, this will be my first time going to EVO this year. Training up in Marvel and Ultra. I'm learning Doom and I now see why everyone plays him.

Also, does anyone know if Samurai Shodown V Special will be at EVO in a cabinet? I wanna wreck some people in it.

 

[Sayad]

His stance isn't throw invulnerable, just some of his moves from it, else he'd have zero pressure on wakeup.

How hard is it to space properly while in his stance? I have no idea how he really works. ;p

Another thing I hate about Leo is how a lot of his attacks hit-boxes extend outside the attack animation. I wouldn't put it past ASW that part of his design is to force players into buying him just to learn the match up. ;p

 

[Coffeeling]

How hard is it to space properly while in his stance? I have no idea how he really works. ;p

Another thing I hate about Leo is how a lot of his attacks hit-boxes extend outside the attack animation. I wouldn't put it past ASW that part of his design is to force players into buying him just to learn the match up. ;p

Part? That's his schtick.

 

[Azure J]

This conversation is hella what lol I'm at school so can't say much beyond "what?"

I was in the middle of an SQL class during most of the conversation. Still wish if I had more to contribute, but it's certainly interesting hearing what everyone has to say about the Xrd cast.

Edit: Congrats Karst!

 

[Kikirin]

'Grats, Karst!

 

[fader]

That sucks, because the puppet would be way cooler with out the guy.

The thing with familiar characters is, when you mess the Stand up, you can still be ok because its kind of cool on like a fundamental level even id you don't like the design. But when you mess the guy up, thats the guy getting all the billing and who you are staring at all the time.

That's why i am really fond of JOJO and personal characters because they seem to get both very very right

I don't see it as too bad. I feel that Eddie's dark gloomy personality magnifies Little Eddie's eccentric, playful personality. Liking one and hating the other is sort of what will happen when you create foils like this.

 

[Frantic]

Gratz Karst on your little hellion.

Spoiler

I just want my character better normalized so that people stop hating me for playing what I like. :'(

Let the hate fuel you and make you stronger! Who cares if they're OP?! I love when people hate on me for my character choices - it gives me a powerup. Especially when the hate is super salty to the point where you can just taste the tears in your mouth. So good.