GymWolf
Gold Member
So how the fuck did sp2 got greenlighted?
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Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen
- Thread starter ResetEraVetVIP
- Start date
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
I think thats on Ted price. He has always been the guy who forces insomniac to work on multiple games at once. Remember fuse? it was in development around the same time as the ratchet remake and sunset overdrive. he also rushed out Resistance 2 just a year after shipping ratchet future tools of destruction and only 2 years after resistance 1.So how the fuck did sp2 got greenlighted?
he runs his studio like a sweatshop. herman can and should override him, but i bet herman is probably happy that at least one of his studios is able to make games every 2 years.
Kaiserstark
Member
Hulst only became head of PlayStation Studios at the end of 2019. Spider-Man 2 was greenlighted by Shawn Layden.So how the fuck did sp2 got greenlighted?
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rhodesianshepard
Member
Yeah, I think they have learned not to push GAAS on their premiere first party single player studios. It's more advantageous to invest and partner up with 3rd party studios and cultivate talent, like they have with Arrowhead or Firewalk
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Yeah. The only issue I had with this was that it came at the expense of investing in single player games. There was a slide showing how their SP to GaaS budget ratio went from 88:12 to 45:55 percent in favor of GaaS from 2019 to 2023. Their budget increased to accommodate this but the budget for SP games remained stagnant. With costs increasing, they needed to invest MORE in SP games as well.
We are seeing the results of that lack of extra investment into first party single player games as sony has no big single player games coming out for the next year, year and a half. we might go 2 years between spiderman 2 and death stranding 2.
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GymWolf
Gold Member
Yeah but shawn wasn't there to see how the game was shaping up.
But you have a point.
Xtib81
Member
I'll give you the draw distance. But other than that, both games looked good, but they didn't push any other boundary.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
the director of the game in an interview with studio head Ted price himself kinda threw Sony leadership under the bus saying they saw that the game wasnt going to meet the release date and were very unhappy with the state of the game. But instead of delaying the game by a year, he had to cut content and just polish up what they had.
He didnt name Herman himself.. he named a few internal sony guys, but its clear that Herman rushed the game out knowing the studio didnt have enough time.
whats funny to me is that the director cut a bunch of content from the second half of the game but left mary jane segments in the game.
GymWolf
Gold Member
The only thing i can think of is having top 3 water tech when origins released.
GymWolf
Gold Member
You were in love with the ugly bitch, don't talk like you were unhappy
H . R . 2
Member
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GooseMan69
Member
Mildly excited, as all the leaks seem to indicate this being Ubisoft’s first true current gen title, with all the bells and whistles. I have no doubt that the environments will be stunning. BUT if we get the same garbage plastic looking character models I will be extremely disappointed. That Star Wars game isn’t exactly encouraging.
GymWolf
Gold Member
Yeah i'm gonna call bullshit calling avatar nextgen and horizon crossgen when they trade blows and avatar is what? 5-10% better looking and not even in all the aspects?!
I'm gonna categorize horizon as crossgen that punch like a nextgen and ragnarock\returnal\tlou remake as the real crossgens.
i guess we can put sp2 between crossgen and nextgen so chief and slimy don't break my balls too much.
I'm gonna categorize horizon as crossgen that punch like a nextgen and ragnarock\returnal\tlou remake as the real crossgens.
i guess we can put sp2 between crossgen and nextgen so chief and slimy don't break my balls too much.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Wait, what aspect is it not better at? character rendering sure but its a first person game.
Avatar does nearly everything better. RTGI, RT Shadows, RT Reflections. Way denser environments. Way bigger draw distance. Way faster flying speeds. Your precious rocks. Destruction. Weather. Name a feature, and there is a good chance Avatar beats it. It's a testament to GG that horizon punches like next gen but thanks to Avatar you can easily see the shortcuts they took. The fog, the pop-in, the foliage variety let alone density, and other lighting issues that people ignored in 2022 after Avatar.
Horizon does have better water rendering and character models. But thats like 5-10% of the game. Avatar does everything else better. I guess if you count burning shores then yes, it does clouds better but you do nothing up there in horizon.
Visually i have no problems calling anyone spiderman 2 cross gen. I only defended it because it actually used the hardware to push some next gen features like better traffic and NPC density, RT hardware for some very impressive building reflections, and the SSD for way faster traversal. GG didnt use the hardware for shit. No RT, no SSD for faster flying/less pop-in. No higher density crowds. Nothing. ND didnt either. Its a copy pasta remake using TLOU2 assets. So in comparison, at least Insomniac pushed those other things and thats all i wanted praised.
I do hope that if they are making Horizon ZD's remake they go all in on RTGI, RT Reflections, RT Shadows, Mesh Shaders, higher NPC counts, faster flying and maybe then we can do a 1:1 comparison. Right now, the gulf is too big. Maybe its not showing in gifs or screenshots, but i play these games on my tv and i would say its way more than a 5-10% better situation.
arkhamguy123
Member
What’s your source on this?
A “large” part of the market that couldn’t tell the difference between the cgi movie and the 720p switch launch title? Yeah I know we all have this rhetoric of “casuals don’t know shit” but they’re not THAT bad dude
TheRedRiders
Member
Next-gen ish I reckon, but as long as the game makes me say "wow"... which I think it will. Ubisoft are more than capable of pushing the visuals, just look at Unity and Origins, both hold up excellently till today.
It's already been leaked that AC is moving onto a fully next-gen engine which features RTGI and next-gen geometry, and it's exclusive to PS5/SeriesX and PC, so I'm eagerly waiting for the reveal, I don't think we'll get actual gameplay till next month though.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
Hdr was reference quality in Ac origins
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DanielG165
Member
Yep. Outside of water and character detail, Avatar is visually a better looking game than Forbidden West. The foliage density, draw distance, lighting, weather, actual RT, RTGI, interactive environments, etc. This is coming from someone who’s played and seen both with my own eyes. Forbidden West is gorgeous, and has a lot of “current gen” stuff in it. But, when compared to Pandora, the improvements of the latter are obvious, which should be the case considering one is fully current gen.
ResetEraVetVIP
Member
How do you know what knowledge I have?
GymWolf
Gold Member
Enemy models are better in horizon and i'm pretty sure you can destroy more things in horizon compared to avatar, not sure where you saw better destruction in avatar tbh.
Textures in general are not way better in avatar, at best they are marginally better, the games trade blows, you can spot shitty textures in avatar as you can spot them in horizon, there is no generational jump where avatar is pristine everywhere you look, they are both costrained by the same factors.
The environment are not way denser, avatar just has more type of plants because it's an alien planet and sure a bit more in quantity, you ignore the fact that horizon has usually more enemies/npcs/animals around the world where avatar usually has npcs and enemies focused inside camps, so yeah i'm gonna call bullshit on the way denser thing, i prefer to see a mix of vegetation, npcs and enemies when i roam around an open world over just being full of vegetation, it's not like rendering enemies and npcs is free on the rendering budget, ESPECIALLY the enemies in horizon that make the mechs in avatar blush in term of complexity.
My point is that no matter how many things avatar does "much better", the final result is not much better, you show the games to 100 people and nobody is gonna think that they are from different gens.
I played both games on pc maxed out and they really feel from the same gen, with avatar being a bit better, i can go to 20% better, final offer.
I guess i'm less sensible to the weak points of horizon.
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March Climber
Member
I’m basing it on your take. One of the reasons why I don’t give many takes in this thread is because there are some topics I simply don’t know enough about, so I choose to just not comment and let those more knowledgable than me comment, instead of me going around saying bad takes. If you have a better, more knowledgable take that I can learn from or show how I might have been off in response, feel free to share.
Also, in an attempt to help set a tone for our conversation, read my previous post in a non-combative, helpful tone. I don’t really have a good reason to argue in this thread
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Nah, Horizon has one tree type that can be destroyed. The palm trees. And by bosses only. The rest cant be destroyed. In Avatar, around half of the plants can be destroyed with gunfire and explosives. most big trees and trunks are static, but pretty much everything else in the forestreacts to gunshots and explosions. Horizon has that one brick type that can be destroyed by bosses but its glitched in the demo area of the game and the DLC introduced one more area but like palm trees, its extremely limited. Whereas those plants in Avatar are everywhere.
I honestly dont know why anyone would bring up textures in foliage rich games like horizon and avatar, but ok, the indoor textures arent exactly UE5 quality so fine, they trade blows in settlements.
Neither game does NPCs as well as it should. Horizon has some scripted sequences of enemies fighting each other, but its very rare and both worlds feel dead. In terms of number of NPCs, you will encounter the Navi a lot in the world but they just sit there fishing or doing their kumbaya thing. Avatar needed far more animals in the forest region thats for sure. But the rhinos that are there go around destroying plants and trees when you make them mad.
I was talking about density and variety of foliage. Avatar has foliage everywhere and in virtually every single scene there are well over a dozen different plant and tree types. The trees have their own plants. In horizon, its like grass, one tree type or two, and maybe 3 different bushes.
If there is one thing i wont let slide is people dissing Avatar's foliage density. Thats blasphemy. No game has ever packed this much foliage detail in their jungle levels.
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GymWolf
Gold Member
Nah dude in horizon you can also destroy plants, rocks, rocks structure and wood structures, you could do all this shit in 2017 in horizon 1.Nah, Horizon has one tree type that can be destroyed. The palm trees. And by bosses only. The rest cant be destroyed. In Avatar, around half of the plants can be destroyed with gunfire and explosives. most big trees and trunks are static, but pretty much everything else in the forestreacts to gunshots and explosions. Horizon has that one brick type that can be destroyed by bosses but its glitched in the demo area of the game and the DLC introduced one more area but like palm trees, its extremely limited. Whereas those plants in Avatar are everywhere.
I honestly dont know why anyone would bring up textures in foliage rich games like horizon and avatar, but ok, the indoor textures arent exactly UE5 quality so fine, they trade blows in settlements.
Neither game does NPCs as well as it should. Horizon has some scripted sequences of enemies fighting each other, but its very rare and both worlds feel dead. In terms of number of NPCs, you will encounter the Navi a lot in the world but they just sit there fishing or doing their kumbaya thing. Avatar needed far more animals in the forest region thats for sure. But the rhinos that are there go around destroying plants and trees when you make them mad.
I was talking about density and variety of foliage. Avatar has foliage everywhere and in virtually every single scene there are well over a dozen different plant and tree types. The trees have their own plants. In horizon, its like grass, one tree type or two, and maybe 3 different bushes.
If there is one thing i wont let slide is people dissing Avatar's foliage density. Thats blasphemy. No game has ever packed this much foliage detail in their jungle levels.
You can type horizon zero dawn physics on yt and there is a particualar video with rock music in the background where he shows some of the deatruction but not nearly everything you can break.
And it's not just destruction, if you destroy a plant with a long leaf, the leaf is gonna fluctuate in the air and fall down slowly because of the low weight, so also care for details (this is showed in the yt video)
Avatar definitely doesn't have more destruction.
There are also gifs from sunhilegend of the first horizon where he show the destruction of plants and shit
I had fights in some areas full of trees and rocks and by the end of the fight the area was just the ground and nothing else because everything else was destroyed, it was not super common but it happen.
Oh and btw, in the first horizon you can destroy everything the dinobots can destroy, you just have to use explosive weapons, it is also showed in the video i told you to search, you think they downgraded the destruction engine in the sequel? I don't think so.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Meanwhile Horizon Fogridden West. Draw distance, foliage density, and just overall level of detail is a generation behind Avatar.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
I dont remember any of these details. I will test it out later today. All i remember in the first game are those palm trees and in the second game those ruins in one area of the game and it is still bugged 2 years later. Basically canned destruction. The only way you could explode it was in the DLC where they added explosive thingys near it because your weapons and those hippo robots couldnt do anything to it.
GymWolf
Gold Member
Cherry picked gifs vs badly cherry picked pics, you've outdone yourself this timeMeanwhile Horizon Fogridden West. Draw distance, foliage density, and just overall level of detail is a generation behind Avatar.
GymWolf
Gold Member
Like i said, there are literal gifs and yt videos where you can see this shit in the first game, i sincerely doubt that they downgraded the destruction system for a crossgen game that probably doesn't even fully use the new cpu, the destruction in the sequel is pretty much the same as the first game, and i was pissed of about this.
Unfortunately not many people make destruction compilation for open worlds on yt so i have to go with what i have.
Edit: fuuuuuuck i can't find the video with the rock music where he shows the destruction, fuck.
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GymWolf
Gold Member
The video i wanted to show you was erased or i can't just find it...
If you find it, it's the one where he repeadetly shot to a big leaf to show the slow descending phyisics and where he throw a granade directly to a tree to destroy it, it's like 3-4 minute long and he mostly show these 2 things and like shooting enemies parts off to show that they have their physics aswell, not much destruction showed.
If you find it, it's the one where he repeadetly shot to a big leaf to show the slow descending phyisics and where he throw a granade directly to a tree to destroy it, it's like 3-4 minute long and he mostly show these 2 things and like shooting enemies parts off to show that they have their physics aswell, not much destruction showed.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Its four different areas of the game. They are meant to show the lack of foliage density and maybe how GG uses fog to hide detail thats not directly in front of you. They do that specifically because they were limited by last gen tech, last gen hardware, last gen vram allocation. they pushed the grass draw distance in some scenes to take advantage of the vram but the overall level of detail is very much limited by last gen.Cherry picked gifs vs badly cherry picked pics, you've outdone yourself this time
the only video i remember from the first game is the video showing how BOTW outclasses Horizon ZD in terms of physics and interactivity. And that the grass did not react to your footsteps which is something they rectified with the sequel. But the plants and trees are all static. whereas almost half of the foliage in avatar either sways or breaks off during combat from both your attacks or enemy attacks.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
like i said, i will try it today. i have both avatar and horizon fw installed and play them both regularly because i still love how both games look. they are both gorgeous industry leading titles. i just think avatar is a gen ahead in foliage density, and draw distance. neither does destruction well or make the world feel alive with animals and NPCs. horizon 2 has like 12 different animal types but you rarely ever encounter them. avatar is the same. whats the point of adding all these animals when you rarely encounter them in the wild. Avatar especially was very disappointing because the devs promised stampedes and even showed it off in the first teaser. I was hoping for those Halo Infinite reveal caliber wild life eco systems.
GymWolf
Gold Member
I just have problems with the "gen ahead" thing.
The game don't look a gen apart to me, at all, a game a gen ahead should absolutely smash a crossgen title and this is clearly not the case.
This gen has been so shit and the console so fucking weak that we forgot what a generational jump is, and avatar is not a fucking jump from horizon, even less from burning shores that clearly still has root on its crossgen nature because it looks 95% the same as base game.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
My guess is that you wanted this which to me is what I wanted from a next gen only game.
Only problem is that they had to downgrade this because the game is already 1440p in the 30 fps mode on the PS5. Sometimes dropping to 1296p. You dont want a game like this targeting 900p-1080p so yes, the console not being powerful enough is likely the reason why they had to downgrade this. I wouldnt be surprised if this was captured using path tracing.
Still, before this gen started, no one wouldve thought that we would get RTGI, RT Shadows and reflections in one game, let alone in an open world game with that much foliage density where you can fly faster than in any open world game last gen where the HDD IO was a huge bottleneck. I am ok with this level of leap even though it was downgraded from the visuals above. To me all those features come together to make the game stand out from horizon, especially the RT shadows and AO coverage which Horizon struggles with in almost every scene.
GymWolf
Gold Member
Not really, i thought the reveal of fw was also underwhelming except the bubble effect when she enter the water.My guess is that you wanted this which to me is what I wanted from a next gen only game.
Only problem is that they had to downgrade this because the game is already 1440p in the 30 fps mode on the PS5. Sometimes dropping to 1296p. You dont want a game like this targeting 900p-1080p so yes, the console not being powerful enough is likely the reason why they had to downgrade this. I wouldnt be surprised if this was captured using path tracing.
Still, before this gen started, no one wouldve thought that we would get RTGI, RT Shadows and reflections in one game, let alone in an open world game with that much foliage density where you can fly faster than in any open world game last gen where the HDD IO was a huge bottleneck. I am ok with this level of leap even though it was downgraded from the visuals above. To me all those features come together to make the game stand out from horizon, especially the RT shadows and AO coverage which Horizon struggles with in almost every scene.
My expectation is something that looks noticeably better than avatar downgraded reveal.
I guess i can fuck off for this gen because we are not gonna get that or even close unless guerrilla does the miracle with horizon 3.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Look I give up. I cant convince you of Horizon's shortcomings and flaws in comparison to Avatar. Maybe this quirky italian named Gymwolf can convince you. He made a pretty detailed post about HFW in an Avatar thread at launch. You might not know him, but he's a pretty cool fella albeit with some rock issues but I trust his word when it comes to Avatar and HFW.
I'm sure slimy or the guys from the graphic fidelity topic can provide some pics of horizon with terrible assets.
With a 5 min search from a topic of cherry picked shots
Pretty bad terrain textures
Mediocre rocks behind her back
Mediocre ground textures
Mediocre geometry on the statue
Mediocre rocks
Bad rocks
And i can continue for an indefinite amount of time.
Dude i would kill to have only high res assets in games, but this gen is not the gen for that dream, even super strict games like callisto has a lot of low res assets if you look closely, open worlds have NO CHANCE.
I'm first and foremost an asset guy, i would not call avatar superior to horizon if the game had more low assets than that game, i personally prefer horizon because good models are super important to me, but i have to give credit to ubisoft for the overall package.
At the very worse they are on par overall, horizon win for the characters and water, avatar win for the locations, the difference is not that big of course and horizon is a 2 years old crossgen vs a fully nextgen game that has to run on a monster pc.
Horizon 3 is probably gonna destroy this game at the end of the gen.
GymWolf
Gold Member
Not sure what you want to prove with that post when i'm saying since the beginning that avatar looks better, but even in that post i never talk about a gen ahead so...terrible gatcha moment if this was your purpose
You can also read in that post that i still prefer horizon because i prefer its strong points over avatar strong points and that they are kinda on par but overall of course it looks better, just not a generation better.
In that post was just showing to another dude that horizon has a lot of shitty textures because i have some intellectual honesty even when i talk about my favourite games, i can do the same with avatar without a sweat, both games have shitty textures all around you.
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GooseMan69
Member
AC Shadows. I am whelmed by the 3 actual screenshots they showed. Need to see it in motion.
GooseMan69
Member
GymWolf
Gold Member
I love how leakers always use potato cameras...
AC Shadows. I am whelmed by the 3 actual screenshots they showed. Need to see it in motion.
From this pic alone it looks pretty shit tbh.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
just a joke. you have to admit its hilarious.Not sure what you want to prove with that post when i'm saying since the beginning that avatar looks better, but even in that post i never talk about a gen ahead so...terrible gatcha moment if this was your purpose
You can also read in that post that i still prefer horizon because i prefer its strong points over avatar strong points and that they are kinda on par but overall of course it looks better, just not a generation better.
In that post was just showing to another dude that horizon has a lot of shitty textures because i have some intellectual honesty even when i talk about my favourite games, i can do the same with avatar without a sweat, both games have shitty textures all around you.
GooseMan69
Member
Yeahhh idk. Based on these screenshots I have a bad feeling it’s gonna be a souped up Valhalla. I’ll reserve judgement until we see gameplay in motion.
mrqs
Member
Yeah, looks good on geometrical details but I'm not really that impressed.
hybrid_birth
Gold Member
Graphic quality I expect this gen:
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
those are some of the worst screenshots ive ever seen. lol
Very low quality. i dont know why they would release those screens.
GymWolf
Gold Member
Not sure why but ok.
That post doesn't undermine anything of what i said today.
-The difference is not that big
-Horizon win for some stuff, avatar win for other stuff
-I still prefer horizon because the strong points of avatar are not strong enough to make me forget where horizon is stronger, you could not even have a discussion like this if the examples were infamous 2 vs infamous 3, a real generational jump, no graphic aspect of infamous 2 even come close to any graphical aspect of infamous 3, again, a real generational jump.
-The fact that avatar indeed looks better than horizon
Like, you only proved that i don't pull punches against any game, may be my most hyped game or a game i hate.
It's it because i call horizon a crossgen game? It is technically a crossgen game, it just punch way harder than any crossgen game and harder than some nextgen only games.
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AC Shadows. I am whelmed by the 3 actual screenshots they showed. Need to see it in motion.
I legit thought this was some shovelware PS3 era game at first.
What the actual fuck?
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
The IGN article said that there is improved GI bounce so we could be looking at RTGI here. it does look like valhalla dlc but there is a lot of stuff under the hood like weather and destruction that could help set it apart.
but yeah, the screens look really rough. This one below is the only one i like because of the draw distance and volumetric lighting above the hills but even then its not as striking as you would expect from a ubisoft game.
Pharaoh 117
Member
Hard to judge from these screenshots so I'm not gonna write it off yet, but it doesn't inspire confidence.
H . R . 2
Member
it's as if Ubisoft is playing TENET with its visual fidelity
[progressing backwards to the PS3 era]
SlimySnake
told you! you'll have to wait for SC Remake still, I hope we'll all be pleasantly surprised and it looks better in motion but ..
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