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[Unknown Soldier]

[watches 4K Horizon footage from today]

I know some of you want to detract from the power of the PS4 pro because of what you expect from Scorpio, but Jesus people, pick your battles...

Scorpio could have an i7-7700K and a 1080 Ti in it and still be useless if there aren't any games for it. I'm just saying.

 

[DjRalford]

Footage looks awesome, can't afford this on release but will pick it up eventually for my Pro.

 

[Sword Of Doom]

Meh i wish they optioned to play in 60 fps since this isnt a multiplayer game there wouldnt be problem

Yeah I wish they'd give us frame rate options for all of their exclusives. I'd buy a pro instantly

 

[Zuzzissm0]

Scorpio could have an i7-7700K and a 1080 Ti in it and still be useless if there aren't any games for it. I'm just saying.

the problem is not if the scorpio has any games, the problem is MS studios cant do such games or visuals like the sony studios can. thats not bashing thats a fact.

I turn on motion+ on my TV, it's basically 60fps

holy shit that input lag

 

[Timu]

Yeah options and all are a bad thing amirite?

So strange for you make such a statement when many games are offering exactly what you are saying.....


UC4 1440p
Hitman 1440P
Dishonored 2 1440p
Firewatch 1440p
Farming Simulator 17 1440p
Lego Harry Potter Collection 1440p
Let it Die 1440p
Mafia III 1440p
TitanFall 2 1440p
The Witness 1440p

Soon Fallout 4

Hell, even Abzu is 1350P and RE7 1260P according to the devs as noted by our esteemed (Dark10x);

........and beyond that, several games with enhanced visuals at 1080p, like Paragon, The Division etc....

If the game can sport better or higher resolutions over 1440p, then it will or should do so....but then, OPTIONS and all............who needs them eh!

I think 1440p should be more common on PS4 Pro.

 

[Trace]

There's pop-in literally 5 meters in front of the player.

Almost like game development is literally a series of tradeoffs!

 

[pottuvoi]

It uses what KZSF, Watchdog 2, and R6S uses.

There were some differences between them.
Watchdog and R6S should be quite close, as sony based their version around the implementation.
KZSF could be thought as the proof of concept of such tech, different sample patterns etc.

It does actually, if you consider all such "MSAA tricks" as one and the same approach to temporal resolution reconstruction. The difference is that while "checkerboarding" is using MSAA 2x (which results in a checkerboard pattern), QB used MSAA 4x with a much more advanced accumulation technique which would probably be hard to describe with just one word (like "checkerboard").

Pretty sure they didn't use full 4xMSAA buffer to create the sample location information, but resolved images. (Yup.)
If we put all MSAA + temporal tricks under checkerboard sign we cannot really distinguish between them.

TAA implementation and ghosting are both tied to this technique as usage of four different shading grids means that you have to (or should I say "choose to") accumulate frame data over four previous frames which makes all kinds of temporal artifacts twice as visible as with a "checkerboard" solution.

Checkerboard can use more than one images as well, it's not limited to previous frame.
Most TAA implementations use long history.

 

[michaelius]

I think 1440p should be more common on PS4 Pro.

1440p games look worse on Pro than 1800p checkerboard games - so not really.
Just bumping resolution is simple thing to do but if dev puts effort into pro version results are better.

 

[Caayn]

If native/non-native elemnts have nothing to do with what counts as rendering, then what does distinguish rendering from checkerboard rendering? That's what I'm trying to get at.


Okay. But generally CBR does not "take a resolution and make it bigger", by any method. The input and output of reprojection are the same number of pixels. In very fraught cases CBR does adjust its results via calculations much like scaling. However, note there were already tentative results to adjust. By contrast, upscaling generates values de novo to fill gaps.

That is the opposite of what checkerboard rendering is doing. It is not taking a resolution and making it bigger, hence why it is not an upscale technique. You start with a resolution and end with the same resolution like traditional rendering, at no point do you change resolution.

Except the resolution is increased, not outward as we're used to but inward. CBR doubles the amount of pixels, and does so with rather good results, by scaling inward.

Just like there are (for example) multiple different kind of AA methods that all do different things and take place during different stages of the render process. There are multiple upscale methods, CBR is a (good) new upscale tech.

 

[Nozem]

Yes you will be seeing 4k as your output.

 

[OfTheOverflow]

Sounds good, shame I can't experience it in all its glory yet Do people usually prefer the 4k option over supersampled, locked 30, better effects?

 

[pottuvoi]

Sounds good, shame I can't experience it in all its glory yet Do people usually prefer the 4k option over supersampled, locked 30, better effects?

Supersampling indicates that the game is running higher than target resolution.
So if game is rendered at 4k super/downsampled to 1080p, you cannot actually add better effects you use at 4k.

I actually dislike spatial supersampling for the simple reason that it's incredibly wasteful way to use the computing power.
Especially when samples are in an ordered grid.

 

[thelastword]

I think 1440p should be more common on PS4 Pro.

No, 1440p rez bumps are pretty much barebones pro upgrades, unless there are significant graphics enhancements along with that, like in Hitman, and Fallout 4. A higher resolution bump was expected in UC4 as an example, which didnt have any graphics upgrades from vanilla...also TF2 etc....


Keep in mind, that some of these games have higher rez modes over 1440p, that's why I said options and all.....TBH, I appreciate the better Draw Distance and Lighting that fallout will bring at 1440p, but I would have also loved or even preferred a 1800p/2160p checkerboard mode/option along with that.

Look at the Witness, it's 1440p 60fps and also 4k 30fps. Obviously I don't expect 4k native for Fallout 4, but 2160p checkerboarded would have been swell for Fallout 4, without the graphcial extras at 30fps. I think 4k owners appreciate such modes even more...... It's just Like Mordor, I can tell you, I prefer the 4k mode on my UHD set, the same applies to ROTTR. I'd play the higher rez mode over bells and whistles mode anyday....Options man, it ain't bad.....We have 4k tv's, not 1440p tv's....

 

[Liabe Brave]

Except the resolution is increased, not outward as we're used to but inward. CBR doubles the amount of pixels, and does so with rather good results, by scaling inward.

CBR does not scale in any direction. The important differentiating step, reprojection, can occur without any reference to the current frame's pixel grid (which upscaling requires). The entire checkerboard process could even feasibly take place before a single pixel has gone through the lighting pass.

That some localized reprojected pixels might have their values adjusted using similar weighted calculations as scaling does not make the whole process scaling. Some AA algorithms also use these kinds of concatenations, and we don't call them scaling.

Just like there are (for example) multiple different kind of AA methods that all do different things and take place during different stages of the render process. There are multiple upscale methods, CBR is a (good) new upscale tech.

Except that scaling as a concept is defined by operating solely on a framebuffer's pixel values to create a larger or smaller frame. CBR doesn't do that. Just as the multiple methods of AA all smooth high-contrast regions. If you developed an algorithm that intensified bloom from light sources, calling it a "new AA tech" would be totally wrong. Even if a portion of the math it did was the same as some AA implementations.

 

[XGoldenboyX]

Do we have good comparison images between PS4 Pro and PC at 4K?

I only know of this one, and I'm not sure whether it is still accurate. The difference was pretty huge in this one.

Mind you the textured materials are also slightly higher quality on PC, so the effect of being sharper besides the slight blur upscale on PS4 is where the diference is.

 

[lightchris]

Mind you the textured materials are also slightly higher quality on PC, so the effect of being sharper besides the slight blur upscale on PS4 is where the diference is.

I didn't mean to refer to texture quality or general image sharpness at all though. The PS4 image has very noticeable aliasing on many polygon edges of the image. I wondered if something changed since then, or if the PC version has better anti-aliasing. If neither is true I would be disappointed by the CBR results.

 

[Timu]

1440p games look worse on Pro than 1800p checkerboard games - so not really.
Just bumping resolution is simple thing to do but if dev puts effort into pro version results are better.

No, 1440p rez bumps are pretty much barebones pro upgrades, unless there are significant graphics enhancements along with that, like in Hitman, and Fallout 4. A higher resolution bump was expected in UC4 as an example, which didnt have any graphics upgrades from vanilla...also TF2 etc....


Keep in mind, that some of these games have higher rez modes over 1440p, that's why I said options and all.....TBH, I appreciate the better Draw Distance and Lighting that fallout will bring at 1440p, but I would have also loved or even preferred a 1800p/2160p checkerboard mode/option along with that.

Look at the Witness, it's 1440p 60fps and also 4k 30fps. Obviously I don't expect 4k native for Fallout 4, but 2160p checkerboarded would have been swell for Fallout 4, without the graphcial extras at 30fps. I think 4k owners appreciate such modes even more...... It's just Like Mordor, I can tell you, I prefer the 4k mode on my UHD set, the same applies to ROTTR. I'd play the higher rez mode over bells and whistles mode anyday....Options man, it ain't bad.....We have 4k tv's, not 1440p tv's....

1440p at 60FPS is a great option between image quality and performance, and also it's an option that more PS4 Pro games should have anyways. Lots of PS4 Pro games can't do native 4k as well, and when it does it it's usually 30FPS, same with checkerboarded res in most situations.

 

[kruis]

.

 

[ZombieNapoleon]

For those nit picking what will be a gorgeous game, isn't "half of 4K" actually just native 1080? If so, then per my understanding they're able to push past 2K natively then checkerboard to obtain the remainder to a 4K resolution.

In any case, I'm excited to see how this looks with the pro on the new 4K.

 

[RoboPlato]

For those nit picking what will be a gorgeous game, isn't "half of 4K" actually just native 1080? If so, then per my understanding they're able to push past 2K natively then checkerboard to obtain the remainder to a 4K resolution.

In any case, I'm excited to see how this looks with the pro on the new 4K.

4k is 4 times 1080p, not half.

Checkerboard also isn't half of 4k either.

 

[Liabe Brave]

Lots of PS4 Pro games can't do native 4k as well, and when it does it it's usually 30FPS, same with checkerboarded res in most situations.

Actually, neither of these things is true. For all versions of 4K on Pro, there's at least as many--and usually more--games at 60fps than at 30fps. This is the case no matter how you dice them. Here's the tally:

60FPS:30FPS
Full 4K - 14:7
Dynamic 4K - 2:1
CBR 4K - 3:1
Dynamic CBR 4K - 3:1
Other 4K* - 2:2
TOTAL - 24:12

* "Geometry rendering" and "temporal injection"

 

[Timu]

Actually, neither of these things is true. For all versions of 4K on Pro, there's at least as many--and usually more--games at 60fps than at 30fps. This is the case no matter how you dice them. Here's the tally:

60FPS:30FPS
Full 4K - 14:7
Dynamic 4K - 2:1
CBR 4K - 3:1
Dynamic CBR 4K - 3:1
Other 4K* - 2:2
TOTAL - 24:12

* "Geometry rendering" and "temporal injection"

Ok, fair enough, though I wonder more about native 4k and 60fps combined games.

 

[Liabe Brave]

Ok, fair enough, though I wonder more about native 4k and 60fps combined games.

The list is only when the factors combine. I did not count games that have separate 4K and 60fps modes as 60fps. The 14 60fps games in the top row are native 4K and 60fps simultaneously. And so on down the line.

 

[Timu]

The list is only when the factors combine. I did not count games that have separate 4K and 60fps modes as 60fps. The 14 60fps games in the top row are native 4K and 60fps simultaneously. And so on down the line.

Ok, that's good. Ha, I really should had looked up the PS4 Pro more, but for what it's doing it seems to be doing a great job for the price of it.

 

[justsomeguy]

I've never seen so many people concerned about the details of something instead of the end result

You must be new to gaf.

 

[Sad Affleck]

I've never seen so many people concerned about the details of something instead of the end result, dunno how you guys have stable relationships honestly.

I have very low standards for resolution so I don't care about the result but I like these discussions because I get to learn more about how games are built.

 

[Blizzje]

Is 1440p theoretically more intensive for the GPU than 1800p checkerboard? I guess 1440p is pushing more native pixels but the checkerboard process requires power too, right?

 

[FrozenCell]

The game will be rendered in 2160p checkerboard (meaning, basically 4K)

The game will be rendered in 2160p checkerboard (meaning, not actually 4K)

I can see why they went with the first one

 

[RenditMan]

More """""""4K"""""" resolution. I'm really not impressed with the PS4Pro.

You mean you're not impressed with physics seeing as it's currently just about impossible to get 4k natively rendered at decent settings and fps for under 400 watt.

 

[RenditMan]

For those nit picking what will be a gorgeous game, isn't "half of 4K" actually just native 1080? If so, then per my understanding they're able to push past 2K natively then checkerboard to obtain the remainder to a 4K resolution.

In any case, I'm excited to see how this looks with the pro on the new 4K.

4k is like running 4x1080p monitors at the same time.

 

[timmyp53]

I think this game and fallout could be 60fps if they turned down graphical effects to lower than the base ps4 . It's an option but it would cause mass confusion for the majority for ps4 owners and would be terrible to market.

 

[Planet]

I think this game and fallout could be 60fps if they turned down graphical effects to lower than the base ps4

That would mean the games are fully GPU bound, which they are not. In contrary, I think CPU is the limiting factor in most PS4 games, and in turn on the Pro.

 

[ZombieNapoleon]

4k is 4 times 1080p, not half.

Checkerboard also isn't half of 4k either.

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification!