hardcastlemccormick
Banned
This is pretty misleading. It's fair to say that half of the pixels are constructed, not directly rendered from that frame's source.
Of course. Its a sliding scale of image quality.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Horizon Zero Dawn on the PS4 pro will render in 2160p checkerboard
- Thread starter Loudninja
- Start date
This is pretty misleading. It's fair to say that half of the pixels are constructed, not directly rendered from that frame's source.
Of course. Its a sliding scale of image quality.
Guess Scorpio must be as well then if MS themselves are advising third parties to use these same checkerboarding techniques instead of native 4k for that machine.
True, I almost mentioned that caveat but decided against it because being this early, it's too inconsistent. It really depends on implementation and varies from title to title.
I think the only title where artifacting is/was overly offensive is Deus Ex Mankind Divided.
Yeah, really wish more devs would get off their asses and hit that 60fps button more often. I mean, it's not like it's a design issue, or that Pro still has a weak as fuck CPU, right?
joecanada
Member
I'm not one for basking in others misery but some of the upcoming Scorpio threads are going to be a circus. A popcorn.gif circus
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
Yes, the image stability was very good in QB, but I don't think it's any worse in ROTR, or latest CoD on Pro, where it also never appears to fall apart and become low res while in motion. IMO, checkerboard technique is the first of its kind where the performance benefits far outweigh potential drawbacks, to the point that no matter what hardware power I had at the disposal, beyond 2160checkered, I'd never spend any resources into resolution, but rather focus them on anything else.
Kremzeek
Member
based on a totally scientific poll i did, fully 100% of the people whining about "not native 4K!" do not, in fact, have a 4K TV.
Not entirely correct. When using hardware checkerboarding, some elements of the scene are indeed full resolution - this includes things like the depth buffer, stencil and object ID. So while the most expensive parts (gbuffer, etc) are sparsely sampled, there still is native resolution information used during the reconstruction (plus previous frame data) - so things like geometry edges, foliage outlines, etc can be considered native resolution even without the temporal element.
Business
Member
Personally I'm impressed with the results of checkerboard 4k and to be honest I doubt I could tell the difference from true 4k from my couch. I guess a lot of folks would be in the same boat so I think it's great this technology has brought 4k (insert * or another snarky remark to it) to the masses, instead of being something only <5% of PC players enjoy (probably still too generous with that percentage).
dr_rus
Member
Well, that depends on a person - or even a title and a person - I guess. I personally strongly prefer native rendering over checkerboarded one in WD2 on PC - but when combined with a slight supersampling (1.25x) checkerboard is certainly better as the resulting overall image quality is higher because of supersampling while the performance turns out to be somewhat comparable to a native rendering without supersampling.
It's certainly a nice option to have but I'm not sure how I feel about it being the only option like on PS4Pro - it's better than just 1080p or upscaling I guess.
Sparse is a more general term as it includes all such sparse grid rendering approaches, not just checkerboarding which is really just one implementation using MSAA 2x.
All such techniques are using MSAA h/w (and GPU h/w in general) and cannot be "purely software". The extent of benefits which these techniques are getting because of PS4Pro's additional h/w is unknown. All of them are working fine on any PC DX11 class h/w though so it's pretty clear that whatever PS4Pro have in addition is not critical to their functioning. I think it's also pretty much a given that Scorpio will receive whatever Pro has in its GPU since the same can be said about Vega which Scorpio will most likely be based upon.
MyNameIsRye
Member
This thread is impossible to follow. Everyone is just saying everyone is wrong.
Unless scorpio has the same or equivalent hardware changes as PS4Pro (object ID, some other things), then I'd consider sparse sampling a purely software technique (like R6:S) whereas checkerboard is hardware assisted with significant additional reconstruction information (full resolution object ID is very important for accurate reconstruction).
Yep, though I at least understand it more now. Still prefer native though.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
I'm not seeing how that conflicts with anything I said. You even used the word "reconstructed," where I used the verb "constructed."
Folks like to be picky, especially programmers whose whole job is predicated on being as specific as possible. Doesn't make for a nice discussion though.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Down sampling is how you get excellent image quality. Proper super sampling will help out with aliasing on surfaces, aliasing on edges, aliasing on very thin polygons such as blades of grass or leaves or power lines (any thin object does not play along with MSAA very well) as you are rendering the game at a much higher resolution and reconstructing the 1080p image from there.
It is a quite expensive process actually (unless you kind of have a 4K mode already there and you need to add the downsampling tax yourself).
Yautja_Warrior
Member
Yeah I keep hearing about not many people having 4k TV, which is fair enough, as it's just starting to become more a little more mainstream but there is a hell of a lot more people complaining about checkerboarding not native 4k.
Having a 55" 4k Sony Bravia and a PS4 Pro myself, I can definitely say checkerboarding looks excellent and can look extremely close to a native 4k image, even Digital Foundry and other Analysis sites have said it looks great, anyone who says otherwise, really hasn't seen it in person.
still images of the game in motion, i meant. borked the wording there.
i.e. screenshots of in-game action, not photo mode. because, cmiiw, if the picture doesn't move for 2 frames (60ms) you essentially have a 2160p frame where every pixel has been properly rendered.
Omnistalgic
Member
whooohoooo...that first page, let the hate consume you warriors. This ain't no Native 4K!!! Sony Ponies believe all the lies...
On another note, this game might justify Sony's decision with to go with a Pro approach and release at a lower price-point rather than waiting like MS did for the tech to get cheaper. Seeing this is 4K (Sorry warriors "faux 4K" or "4K") really looks INCREDIBLE! I would be proud of the techniques used here as well.
On another note, this game might justify Sony's decision with to go with a Pro approach and release at a lower price-point rather than waiting like MS did for the tech to get cheaper. Seeing this is 4K (Sorry warriors "faux 4K" or "4K") really looks INCREDIBLE! I would be proud of the techniques used here as well.
Pixel count is the same. It is rendering a full 3840×2160 framebuffer. Slightly less accurate than Native 4K but still it's basically 4K.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1330505
Thank you.
Shame it took so long for this to get posted. People seem to have no clue what checkerboarding actually is.
I prefer native 8K myself.
I'd take 1080p at 60fps if I could, but whatever.
I get it when people don't like a game that's 900p or 720p(yuck.) I don't either. Honestly though when the resolution is already this high, it's gonna look amazing anyway. True 4K takes a ton of resources, and it isn't worth cost when that power can be spent elsewhere. I've tried 4k using my PC(GTX 1080) hooking up to my TV so yes I've experienced it.
The PS4 Pro "fake" 4K is still good enough for me. The game looks beautiful.
I get it when people don't like a game that's 900p or 720p(yuck.) I don't either. Honestly though when the resolution is already this high, it's gonna look amazing anyway. True 4K takes a ton of resources, and it isn't worth cost when that power can be spent elsewhere. I've tried 4k using my PC(GTX 1080) hooking up to my TV so yes I've experienced it.
The PS4 Pro "fake" 4K is still good enough for me. The game looks beautiful.
So checkerboard rendering means 2160i instead of 2160p? In layman's terms?
boredandlazy
Member
Sooooo, we'd all be playing Horizon in stock 1080p? I'd rather the current situation.
Ronald Reagan
Neo Member
Add me to the list of people who'd prefer 60fps options. Even for a game like Resident Evil 7 which is noticeably ugly at times, 60fps still makes it much more fluid, responsive, and an overall more immersive experience. Sucks that 60fps will probably never be the console standard though as most people prefer prettier graphics understandably.
ALLseeingEYE
Member
I agree with you, supersampling is great if you have the horsepower, but since it is a very expensive process as you point out, I don't think it's ideal for a system like PS4 Pro unless you are targeting 30fps, and can't easily adjust graphic options. As in, it's probably the easiest way to make a 1080p mode on PS4 Pro.
In my experience, you will get far more bang for your buck on PC games by jacking up all the settings, keeping resolution at 1080p or slightly higher, and targeting 60+ fps.
I think the 30fps/60fps visual quality difference is so subjective and divisive, that developers would do really well to give players the option to choose. Since the majority of games these days are being made for PC, porting those games over to console, with at least some graphical settings, and to give players options like 1080p 30, 1080p60, 1440p, or 4k just makes sense, especially as 4k TVs and monitors are just starting to penetrate the market.
How awesome would it be, if on a console, you could choose to play at 60fps on the majority of games? I think players would love it.
Scorpio is going to be an underpowerd for 4k as well, you'll just see relatively less sacrifices being made to hit native 4k compared to Pro. But sacrifices non the less and using checkerboard rendering just like Sony.
ethomaz
Banned
Let's wait Halo 6 sub 4k like Halo 5 was sub 1080p.
Scorpio is not the 4k native machine you want.
Andodalf
Banned
Im 100% sure halo 5 and subsequent games will be rock solid 60 fps with variable res up to 4k on Scorpio.
ethomaz
Banned
Exactly... sub 4k... that alone kills the Phil talk that some user thinks it is the absolute truth.
It totally can be, if you're prepared to sacrifice a ton of visual fidelity for nearly imperceptible improvements.
Non-taxing games will run at native 4K no problem.
How can the pro render four times the pixels of a base ps4 if it's just two times as powerful?
ethomaz
Banned
It is rendering only half of the 4k pixels... 1920x2160 pixels... the other half is created by the checkerboard.
Liabe Brave
Member
With that definition, CBR as implemented on Pro is also shading some portion of the reprojected pixels. The ID buffer allows selection of the particular polygon from which the pixel is derived. The surface properties and scene lighting are known (from the previous frame) and are used to determine the pixel color (perhaps adjusted based on current lighting of the surface).
The pixels which do not meet this definition are only those with low confidence values, derived from the pixel neighorhood. Their proportion of the buffer will vary, but it will only rarely be as high as half (perhaps never?).
I assure you, my aim is not to confuse people. But I haven't seen any definition of "rendering" which excludes all CBR methods, while including all the prior techniques of deriving pixel values you wish to preserve. (I'm not sure such a fine splitting is actually possible. Is it unexpected that terms developed for old processes might not gracefully cover entirely new techniques?)
If it'll reduce the grating effect, however, please feel free to replace "render" with "rasterize".
I disagree. "Basically" implies "to a large degree" in usual usage. It's like saying "in many ways" rather than "in some ways".
As above, you may read "rasterize" for "render" if that helps. But can you supply a definition of "rendered" that effectively makes the distinction, while not excluding accumulation shadows, AA, low-res effects buffers, etc.?
Did Phil say every game on Scorpio was gonna be native 4K?
ALLseeingEYE
Member
I'm not sure who you are trying to convince here. I have a very good idea of what Scorpio will be like, and I'm quite excited/ hopeful about it. Studios at MS offering smart graphical features like Dynamic resolution will only add to the quality of Scorpio games, not take away from it. Nevermind that, I'm not even endorsing the fact that MS should even target 4K. They could probably do amazing things by using checkerboard rendering, and even targeting 60fps. I am saying though, that I am very confident MS and 3rd parties will be able to hit a native 4k 30fps on Scorpio titles should they choose.
I have a lot of experience with almost every GPU and a large amount of the CPUs on the market right now, and I'd say I have a very good idea of how MS first-party games might perform on Scorpio, if they do indeed hit their 6 Terraflop GPU target for the machine.
Hell, boot up any of the UWP Win10 store games on a 6 Terraflop GPU, target 4k, and let me know what you find. In my experience, that usually means 30-40fps with cranked settings, on essentially every AAA title, with substantially improved graphical and image quality.
What exactly this 6 terraflop AMD GPU in Scoprio will actually turn out like is anyone's guess, but if it's a nice improvement over the RX 480, and can perform close to a Fury X, but with 12GB of GDDR5, then the system will be a beast, especially considering the success of async compute support on DX12 games. It will also likely be able to push true 4k quality textures, if it truly does have 12GB of GDDR5, which is something the PS4 Pro doesn't even seem to be trying to do for whatever reason.
LostDonkey
Member
So an aproximation. OK anyway I read Durante's posts now it's actually quite clear what we are talking about.
Some posts here make CBR sound like magic. XD
PLASTICA-MAN
Member
Still unclear if the improvements in shadow maps and increasing the quality of the anisotropic filtering is for the PS4 PRO in general or just for the 1080p mode.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
I don't think such a definition is necessary because arguably no game wouldn't use non-native buffers or effects at some point. A game like Quake 1 has low res effects and shadows but it still renders/rasterizes at 4K.
Checkerboard rendering is essentially a really good and somewhat complex post-processing upscaling technique using native elements and temporal frame trickery. I don't consider that slander on the output, which undoubtedly looks very good from what I've seen.
ethomaz
Banned
My reply is to that post if you follow the thread... I don't even understand why you make this question to me because most Scorpio games won't be 4k.
michaelius
Banned
That's meaningless statement - Nintendo can hit 1080p on Wii U gpu since it comes down to design choices.
You aren't getting PS4 quality games using whole 1,8TF for 1080p on Scorpio at native 4k at the same frame rates since that would need over 7TFlops.
What you will be getting at native 4k resolution is games which already hit 1080p on xbox one.
ethomaz
Banned
I see... you already made your mind for disappointment.
HoodWinked
Member
native is 16 pixels
checkerboard is 8 pixels
so lets work backwards
4x4=16 pixels native
√8 x √8 = 8 pixels checkboard
√8 = 2.82842712475
Unknown Soldier
Member
I'm upgrading to a Pro this week so my body is ready.
I have a gaming PC with a 5820K and a 1080 and I'm still excited about getting my Pro. A lot of stuff isn't native 4K like on my PC but it's still way better than 1080p.
I have a gaming PC with a 5820K and a 1080 and I'm still excited about getting my Pro. A lot of stuff isn't native 4K like on my PC but it's still way better than 1080p.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Ok, so just so this is clear, via approximation, you're still getting a frame buffer with 4K worth of pixels, yes ?
Why do people keep calling it upscaling then ? Upscaling is stretching something from a lower resolution to a higher. With CB, you're still rendering the native amount of 4K pixels. The accuracy might not be 1 : 1 to native 4K, but at least you won't have any up-scaling artifacts.
Either way, IQ will be much better than 1080p, game is shaping up to look like a graphical showcase for Pro.
PodcastFips
Member
Check your local deals all the time
My local Media Markt got the 55" for 1300 currently, and they will only continue to drop until March/April when the new models will be part of lineup.
I've seen some of these local offers around Germany but nowhere close to where I live, it's frustrating. 1000 for the 49 inch an I'm in.
demogorgon
Banned
it's just another form of upscaling
traditional upscaling just multiplies the pizels and uses an algorithm to guess what the pixel should look like
temporal reconstruction borrows pixels from old frames
checkerboard rending is a type of upscaling where pixels are still guessed using an algorithm it's just more effective then traditional upscaling was.
in short all the "non native" techniques still display 4k but not all the pixels are rendered. it's not gonna look as good as native 4k. doesn't mean it looks bad but no matter what you still loose image quality. the less pixels that are "guessed" the better the quality will be. ideally you'd want native where every pixel is rendered and none are guessed.
It's actually funny because regardless of the technique we've seen people say that 900p upscaled looks "blurry as shit" with the upscaler guessing about 633k pixels. checkboard rending a 1440p res upscaled is guessing about 6million pixels. it's not gonna look clean regardless.