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I am meeting a Trump supporter this week. Help.
- Thread starter Lord Thrappleper The 49th
- Start date
gutter_trash
Banned
Only A Sith Deals In Absolutes
this is the problem with the Authoritarian Mind; democracy, reasoning, nuance matters not. The only thing that matters to them is the end to their means no matter
this is the problem with the Authoritarian Mind; democracy, reasoning, nuance matters not. The only thing that matters to them is the end to their means no matter
Brian Griffin
Member
Yeah this. Don't even bother with either of them. If you still value your friendship then you need to tell her to fuck off if she's cool with people advocating fucking genocide. You're only hope is to shock her into realizing how fucked up this all is. She's probably lost already but anything short of complete rejection of this guy will guarantee it.
LeroyPantwether
Member
This right here.
Also, OP obviously using hyperbole in his update to prevent thread backfire.
Yeah, who ever heard of a Trump supporter having problems with Muslims and women.
Islamophobes and misogynists in the alt-right?! Who would believe such a tale?
Yup, whatever happened to "punching an nazi in the face" being an American tradition gaf? Giving up already?
Ryzaki009
Member
I'm assuming this is a temporary burst of stupidity rather than something that's constant. She might just need someone to talk some sense into her. This is recoverable and I see no need to lose a friend to this stupidity if it can be avoided. If she keeps on this train despite OP trying to pull her off then I see cutting her loose.
Mohonky
Member
Extra context. This is a little deeper than "I'm going to be in the same room as a stranger who voted for a certain person. How should I react?"
Well, whatever the OP's situation is, at least they're trying to penetrate the right-wing bubble. If you want to research some specifics of his policies, administration, or statements, there's plenty of places to go. But instead of expecting some debate where you exchange data points, I think you'd be better off taking an inquisitive approach to his beliefs. You say you already know he supports terrible things; instead of focusing on them like they probably expect you to, ask why they believe it, where it came from, and how do they know for certain their side is any more trustworthy than the people they've been told are out to get them.
People like that prepare for confrontation because it's what their worldview conditions them to do. But they aren't prepared for introspection and conversation, because confrontation is usually a defense mechanism for insecurity. People get sucked into those movements because they're afraid and ignorant. Showing that the truth isn't so scary, and that it's possible to feel safe outside of their comfort zone can be the first step towards them lowering their guard and looking at things from a new perspective.
People like that prepare for confrontation because it's what their worldview conditions them to do. But they aren't prepared for introspection and conversation, because confrontation is usually a defense mechanism for insecurity. People get sucked into those movements because they're afraid and ignorant. Showing that the truth isn't so scary, and that it's possible to feel safe outside of their comfort zone can be the first step towards them lowering their guard and looking at things from a new perspective.
Your profile states you're in the UK, there's plenty of Alt-Right Trump fans right here. I mean it's not that uncommon for Americans to comes here, you know that right? Just listen to Radio 2 during any Brexit debate on the Vine show.
You're acting like you're representing our country or something, you're not. Treat this person like anyone else. If politics comes up as a subject then you disagree with whatever force you believe is correct depending on the person's views.
Aside from that, I think you need to calm down a bit. This isn't an invasion and you're not needed to bring the artillery.
Edit: Stay well away from trying to convince anyone whose feelings for someone you can't stand is a bad person. Fastest way to lose a friend ever.
LookAtMeGo
Member
I was talking with a Trump supporter at my work. It went something like this.
"I really like Trump man"
"Why?"
"I dunno, I just do"
"Whats likable about him?"
"I dunno"
"Ok"
"I like his stance on immigration and stuff"
"Which is?"
"I dunno"
"I think he's a piece of shit"
"How? The dude is so likable!"
"Whats likable about him besides his immigration stance?"
"I dunno"
"I really like Trump man"
"Why?"
"I dunno, I just do"
"Whats likable about him?"
"I dunno"
"Ok"
"I like his stance on immigration and stuff"
"Which is?"
"I dunno"
"I think he's a piece of shit"
"How? The dude is so likable!"
"Whats likable about him besides his immigration stance?"
"I dunno"
Oh they know, most just also know it's not socially acceptable to say out loud what they like.
QuantumZebra
Member
They were hoping you'd go "Yea I hope he kicks out all the (insert race/ethnicity here) too!"
Audioboxer
Member
Brexit is a disaster but that is pushing it a bit
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...proval-rating-gorton-survey-gfk-a7653576.html (before the Corbyn resurrgence)
Trumps holding off even coming to the UK due to the reception ~ https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/11/donald-trump-state-visit-to-britain-put-on-hold
QuantumSquid
Member
just like, talk to them about other things?
mikespit1200
Member
Shotgun Kiss
Member
Wait, so this guy openly endorses genocide, yet OP felt the fact that he supports Trump is the only real point of contention worth mentioning in the thread title and initial post?
Why do I suspect that OP wanted to pick a fight with somebody who has different political beliefs, and when called out on it, made up shit to make this person sound like a monster to justify their own hostility?
Why do I suspect that OP wanted to pick a fight with somebody who has different political beliefs, and when called out on it, made up shit to make this person sound like a monster to justify their own hostility?
Raylan Targaryen
Member
Uh, made shit up?
A Trumper not supporting genocide is more of a mythical creature than a unicorn
JeffG
Member
lol..ok
18% is still 18% too high and is scarily close to the support UKIP had before the Brexit vote and the peak theoretical polling support for the BNP before that. That's still a big minority of potentially bigoted and right wing people, despite the majority view that Trump is an asshat.
The fact is that this sort of view, while not at all representative, still has a base of support in the UK and such rhetoric isn't exactly unheard of here.
The key bit is not his views, but of course that someone has fell for someone whose views diverge from theirs. As hard as is is to accept, you will very rarely convince someone in love that the person they love is a bad person, especially when the reasons are purely political.
I mean yes, the guy is a complete racist git, but having an argument with the guy is only going to make you look like a argumentative bastard and not convince this person that their feelings are misplaced.
Elegant Weapon
Member
Is it really unbelievable to you that a Trump supporter advocates for genocide?
Audioboxer
Member
Statistically speaking in a political poll 18% is low. Give Americans a poll with an 18% approval rating of Trump and they'd be doing cartwheels. You could ask people in a poll do you want £5,000 no strings attached and it would still somehow end up 95% yes, 5% no. Point being, you'll probably never get to 0%.
A lot of the Republican party views are in-line with our Conservative party views, so you'll always get some tossing support towards the American equivalent. If anything, considering our country voted for Brexit and keeps voting for the Conservative party, it's actually pretty impressive to see Trump polling at something like 18%. As in, our country would probably be expected to chuck him maybe 30 odd %, or at least be higher than 18%. So even a good chunk of our Conservatives don't like him, considering our overall country seems to be heavily Conservative, politically.
But yes, I do agree I wish it was lower, I'm just trying to be pragmatic it's actually not that alarming. Hence why Trump won't even visit the UK.
I'm dying at the idea that acknowledging the other side as human does anything to normalize terrible ideology. In fact, that's a great way to understand terrible ideology -- borne of human irrationality, infallibility, and cognitive bias. Treating the racism of Trump supporters as supernaturally, extraordinarily unique does absolutely nothing and is actually probably pretty detrimental to seriously addressing the roots of bigotry.
What a silly argument. Seriously, think about what you've said.
Or, if you're criticizing only those who use the phrase as some sort of sly way of justifying the actual content of Trump supporters' beliefs, then your real gripe should be with the intellectual dishonesty of those who use the phrase in that way, not the phrase itself.
Finally, I hear people say "it goes beyond politics" or "it goes beyond opinion" a lot these days when it comes to Trump. What does that even mean in terms of actionable decision-making? What do you have in mind? Are you advocating violent revolution or something? Has your personal response to Trump's policies thus far entailed circumventing the political process? How has your response to Trump and his supporters tangibly differed from your response to previous politicians whom you disliked?
The Hermit
Member
Actually...more people voted centre or centre left in 2017 than centre right or otherwise.
But FPTP and voter distribution gave the Tories the win at a higher rate than the vote split would otherwise suggest.
I know what you're saying, but I've seen enough people who frankly match the OP description over here.
My main contention was that the OP insinuated that this sort of view doesn't fly here. The likes of Hopkins and Farage shows that alas, they have their minority, but very loud and obnoxious support here too.
It's also impossible to argue with people like this with any other results than continuing to see them as arseholes and them continuing to be arseholes. The problem here is the OP wants to place a friendship on the line because if they can't convince that they're right and this guy is an arsehole that their friendship isn't worth it.
I'd say the argument isn't worth it and to let the person involved discover for themselves what toxic views can do to a person when they meet them. Trying to convince them yourself is doomed to almost certain failure.
shawnbuddy
Member
I'm going to be interacting with Trump supporters at a work meeting in five minutes. There's no point in getting in a big fight with them, just talk about other topics and move on.
Lord Thrappleper The 49th
Member
I have updated the OP with the update. I am limited to mobile so its not pretty. Just a copy paste.
I also want to thank all the people providing me with links. It helps me brush up and memorise who is providing what information and where they got that information from.
I also want to thank all the people providing me with links. It helps me brush up and memorise who is providing what information and where they got that information from.
Audioboxer
Member
Don't mention the word centre in an American political topic lol. I agree with you, but after having spent a few years slowly being educated more on American politics, while there is similarities between our Conservative party and the Republicans, they're not 1:1. One of the biggest differences being, while theyworkforyou.com might show some horrendous Tory MP voting records, overall, social acceptance of things like LGBT and having some sort of benefits system/social healthcare system are still supported by our Conservatives. They're dicking around with the NHS and benefits for sure, and it's pathetic/hurting many, but they're not quite Republicanevillaugh.gif style fuck the poor, ill and those gays. We don't have as much of a God-infused element to our political system either. Nor do we have the guns...
I've got an Uncle who is the kind to share articles on FB that drives the family crazy, especially living in Scotland (where last election aside we've kept the Tories at 1 seat for years and years). Conservative propaganda. Never quite on the level of UKIP garbage, more I've got mine, fuck you, with plenty of ignorance. Guy is smashing in person, and will happily debate with family members without getting aggressive. I can't say I don't like my Uncle... I just don't agree with many of his political views. The thing is, he admitted last election he voted Labour for the first time in quite a while. Mainly because of May. Like Trump, May is a terrible leader. Even David typical Tory Cameron could still string things together a bit better than May. You could probably, therefore, describe my Uncle as centre-right. As I said in a topic about Hillary Clinton's book to GAF, to win elections you're normally talking about convincing a 5~15% margin. Not to mention convincing people to simply vote. People who treat voting like it's a buffet system, of taking part whenever they feel like it, deserve their own kind of side eye for any time they moan about politics but say they stay at home. That's another topic of debate, and America does suffer from an even worse turnout than we do. Like routinely around 50% of the country eligible to vote... sheesh. We're at least usually in the 60's, sometimes 70's.
Anyway, your main points I agree, there are decent %'s of people out there you'll only raise your own blood pressure trying to debate/change. Largely speaking, ignore them and focus on getting those who may be in that 5~15% to listen to your arguments. While also taking part in contributing honestly, critically and effectively to your own parties leadership. Getting your leader right is important, just look at the UK and May holding a snap election where she was confident as fuck, and ending up trashing her own majority. Regular stay at home voters and the 5~15% who can be swayed pop up every now and then and hit back at shit leaders/go with leaders who inspire. Americans should know that as well coming off of Obama of all people.
All of this off topic chat aside, what I said is relevant to someone like the OP or anyone else, wanting to charge off into confrontations and act like this is Game of Thrones where you just stick a sword in the bad guys. Sometimes it's best just to write people off, disengage and stay the fuck away from them. OP keeps going on about a friend who is apparently giving permission for a NeoGAF topic... just tell that friend to read this topic. I still don't quite know what the status is on long distance relationship or what, but if things check out as the OP is telling GAF, their friend has to have some serious wish to hook up with genocide, patriarchal kitchen demands and Nazi-ism. Unlike some on GAF, I do believe there will be centre-right Republicans, just like there are British centre-right Tories. Some who can be influenced/debated, but OP's description of a person doesn't seem to sound like that.
shawnbuddy
Member
I read the update and honestly, you've just go to write off your friend. You're correct in saying that she's too in love with him to see how wrong he is, and she'll keep being that way as long as she's in love with him. Your attempts to humiliate the Nazi will just sour her on you. And judging from the fact that you had to crowd-source your arguments, I'm a bit skeptical you're going to casually destroy him, anyway. If he's got any rhetorical skills he might just end up humiliating you and looking like a hero. You've got to understand that Trump supporters don't give a shit about truth, consistency or intellectual honesty. It's all about winning the battle in front of them at all costs. Being freed from any constraints of morality even a mediocre debater has a chance of besting someone who plays fair. Fortunately most Trump supporters are morons, but this guy doesn't sound like a moron.
Wandering Robot
Member
I'd be telling the friend that her ~very special one~ makes me uncomfortable, and that I don't want to engage with him. Arguing with people, particularly when you don't have an argument lined up and come on the Internet to have people get it set up for you, is more likely to make them double down than it is to make them listen. If anything, being exposed to your more tolerant views might make him see some reason, but the fact that you're prepared to go in taking shots while ignoring advice to the contrary doesn't reflect well.
The guy sound absolutely reprehensible, true, but I'd be asking why the friend isn't seeing/doesn't care about that. That doesn't necessitate being anything other than patient and neutral about the situation, but it'd give me pause for sure.
The guy sound absolutely reprehensible, true, but I'd be asking why the friend isn't seeing/doesn't care about that. That doesn't necessitate being anything other than patient and neutral about the situation, but it'd give me pause for sure.
Username1198
Member
Maybe I misunderstood, but why even entertain the idea of hanging out with someone who believes in Muslim genocide?
I'd tell him to fuck off, i don't need to hear his side. I guess don't talk politics? But the genocide thing and walking nazi would be on he back of my mind as he spoke.
I'd tell him to fuck off, i don't need to hear his side. I guess don't talk politics? But the genocide thing and walking nazi would be on he back of my mind as he spoke.
shawnbuddy
Member
Trump supporters are actual people?
Racism, sexisn, homophobia, transphobia are just different points of view? Hmmm
17 Seconds
Banned
Personally i don't have patience nor desire to talk with a Trump supporter or to listen what he has to say. Not anymore.
I could understand the misguided souls who voted for him. But to support him at this point goes beyond political views, it's a statement and i don't have time for those guys anymore.
I could understand the misguided souls who voted for him. But to support him at this point goes beyond political views, it's a statement and i don't have time for those guys anymore.
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