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[Durante]

Why MS lock dx behind new version of Windows? Dx10, dx12, doesn't seems like impossible on older Windows from software perspective.
I get that they want to sell Windows license previously, but now they just want to become digital store middlemen more than sell Windows, why not support older Windows and open digital store there?

Previously, it was to force people to upgrade.
Now, it probably really is an engineering effort they cannot justify to get all the UWP baloney running reliably across multiple OS versions. As you can see from recent threads, they even still have trouble getting the store to run reliably just on one OS.

On one side, we have devs who want to use the latest technology

Vulkan is newer than DX12

On a more serious note, OpenGL extensions generally offered access to "the latest technology" more rapidly than DirectX revisions, so you should probably drop that part from your argument.

Aren't both Sony and Nintendo part of the Chronos group, the guys behind Vulkan?

It's Khronos, but yes. Microsoft is a member too though.

Sony even has "Promoter" status, which is the highest tier of membership.

 

[Stanng243]

I did. WIndows 7 will become irrelevant for AAA gaming very fast.

This whole discussion basically boils down to this:

On one side, we have devs who want to use the latest technology with the best tools and documentation. Technology which gives them the ability to make the best games with as much comfort as possible, in the shortest time possible.

On the other side we have ideologists who think they need to fight against big bad Microsoft and their evil proprietary DX. They quickly dismiss the realities of game development and the advantages of DX. And when they realize that neither devs, nor customers and publishers really care about their hypothetical fears, they don't understand the world anymore. See those tweets above.

You've given no reasons why this should be valid. Especially given that Microsoft's free upgrade stops at the end of the month. That will slow Windows 10 adoption.

 

[ricki42]

Just out of interest, what's the uptake on Vulkan like so far? Doom is the first major game I've seen really back it so are many devs deciding to use it or is DirectX going to win another round?

So far, it's The Talos Principle and DOTA 2 as far as I know. But Vulkan was only officially released in February, while DX12 was released July last year.

 

[LordRaptor]

This whole discussion basically boils down to this:

On one side, we have devs who want to use the latest technology with the best tools and documentation. Technology which gives them the ability to make the best games with as much comfort as possible, in the shortest time possible.

Like the developer in the OP explicitly stating that DX12 does not provide that, you mean?

 

[JaggedSac]

The logic is spot on. How close is Vulcan to PS4's api?

 

[LukasTaves]

This seems to mostly if not entirely negate the notion that UWP is advantageous if you're a game developer targeting both Windows PC and the X1.

Total unification is the goal, but they are not there yet.

Dx12 on xbone is being used on the "old" XDK, the uwp environment on xbone currently only supports dx11, with dx12 planned for the future.

Basically many of the major points of Ms' unified platform are still being developed, and a few years off.

 

[Dinky Dino]

Given its Microsoft they will probably capture esram calls and route them to normal memory. They got a pretty good Xbox 360 emulation going on a x64 archecture. Esram emulation probably looks like childs play.

Could also just be API wars. Which group of programmers doesnt have a weekly os, ide or text editor war going.

Well the other thing is he seems to have limited experience with dx12 when he said the differences are probably small

Still, I appreciate that he's pushing vulkan though he seems to be the only one. It's good to have competition.



Can anyone clarify on this? :

 

[Arkanius]

Vulkan is pretty cool but like DX12, developers need to master it.

Valve launched the Vulkan support for Dota 2 but it's pretty flakky. You get higher mins, but the framepacing is all wrong. Not a smooth experience at all.

 

[Durante]

Well the other thing is he seems to have limited experience with dx12 when he said the differences are probably small

Why? Looking at an entire engine, the differences between DX12 and Vulkan are likely to be quite small. Certainly smaller than between e.g. DX11 and DX12 or OpenGL and Vulkan.

 

[LQX]

MS attempts to fuck over their own Windows 7 base may backfire on them. Sounds about right.

 

[starpiercer]

You've given no reasons why this should be valid. Especially given that Microsoft's free upgrade stops at the end of the month. That will slow Windows 10 adoption.

In the UK, it seems like all the big shops are selling Windows 10 OS discs only. I would imagine a lot of places around the world are probably doing the same.

I think Cyberpower UK has stop too. PC Specialist are charging more for Windows 7 then 10. It seems that Chillblast has stopped.

 

[Dinky Dino]

Why? Looking at an entire engine, the differences between DX12 and Vulkan are likely to be quite small. Certainly smaller than between e.g. DX11 and DX12 or OpenGL and Vulkan.

Well I was mainly talking about how he said probably instead of just straight out stating that the differences were minute enough to not matter. It just sounded like he's not 100% certain about it.

Though if that is the case, devs should be able easily make a dx12 and vulkan path for most of their games without issue since it covers that large windows 7 userbase as well.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

You've given no reasons why this should be valid. Especially given that Microsoft's free upgrade stops at the end of the month. That will slow Windows 10 adoption.

Because devs will focus on DX12 in the future, which means gamers have to adapt, and they will. Also a very big part of them already is on Windows 10. People who still use Windows 7 on their 5-years old PCs are not the target group for AAA game developers.

Like the developer in the OP explicitly stating that DX12 does not provide that, you mean?

It doesn't really sound like he has extensive experience with DX12. He seems to be arguing from a theoretical and ideological point of view. Why do you think that devs like DICE are using DX12?

MS attempts to fuck over their own Windows 7 base may backfire on them. Sounds about right.

In what world does this happen? You realize that Windows 10 adoption is incredibly good and that DX12 seems to be the future API of choice for the majority of AAA devs?

 

[Dictator93]

Because devs will focus on DX12 in the future,

Surely you remember how long devs still supported DX9 right?

 

[LordRaptor]

Why do you think that devs like DICE are using DX12?

Why do you think that DICE created Vulkan?

 

[TheYanger]

So, when windows 7 took over windows XP and direct X stopped getting made for XP, was MS evil then too? Or is it just because people are now trying to attribute some sort of grand scheme to them, when it's the same as it's always been - new OS gets released, old one slowly stops getting support, including DX versions.

Surely you remember how long devs still supported DX9 right?

Windows 10 has been replacing windows 7 miles faster than windows XP got phased out by the average gamer.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Surely you remember how long devs still supported DX9 right?

Your point is...? Using Vulkan will not decrease the amount of APIs they have to manage. But DX12 has the chance to do exactly that.

Why do you think that DICE created Vulkan?

What? DICE did not create Vulkan. And all signs are pointing to them using DX12 for their future games like Battlefield 1.

 

[LordRaptor]

What? DICE did not create Vulkan.

Yes, they did. It is derived directly from Mantle.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

Building a new PC soon, I hope Vulkan takes off because this time I may try to stick with Win 7, or heck Linux if at all possible, I'll have that partition anyway.

 

[jmga]

What? DICE did not create Vulkan. And all signs are pointing to them using DX12 for their future games like Battlefield 1.

DICE created Mantle with AMD, and Vulkan is Mantle 2.0

Johan Andersson also said they would develop both Vulkan and D3D12 backends for their engine.

 

[Krejlooc]

It doesn't really sound like he has extensive experience with DX12. He seems to be arguing from a theoretical and ideological point of view. Why do you think that devs like DICE are using DX12?

 

[Krejlooc]

So, when windows 7 took over windows XP and direct X stopped getting made for XP, was MS evil then too?

Yes? That was stupid then, and has been criticized from day 1 till recently. Shit, at Dev Days, they had an entire lecture on untapped Windows XP markets overseas that can get a major performance boost by not limiting yourself to ancient direct x 9. It was a lecture on how the benefits of embracing true cross-platform coding practices have benefits even among windows users.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Yes, they did.

No, they did not. DICE co-developed Mantle with AMD. While Vulkan is based on Mantle, DICE seems to have abandoned both. I wonder why is that?

Building a new PC soon, I hope Vulkan takes off because this time I may try to stick with Win 7, or heck Linux if at all possible, I'll have that partition anyway.

There is no indication at all that Vulkan will "take off" at some point in the future. It all looks like a repeat of the OpenGL days. If I were I would at least reserve my Windows 10 update, so you can update in the future.

DICE created Mantle with AMD, and Vulkan is Mantle 2.0

Johan Andersson also said they would develop both Vulkan and D3D12 backends for their engine.

They said they are exploring options. But in the last few months there wasn't really any talk about Vulkan support from DICE.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

DICE created Mantle with AMD, and Vulkan is Mantle 2.0

Johan Andersson also said they would develop both Vulkan and D3D12 backends for their engine.

Yeah this is what I remembered. AMD and DICE involvement. It's good they kept it going after D12, now I hope it's widely used because screw having to depend on what Microsoft does with windows, and how they try to force upgrades for gamers.

There is no indication at all that Vulkan will "take off" at some point in the future. It all looks like a repeat of the OpenGL days of the past. If I were I would at least reserve my Windows 10 update, so you can update in the future.

If that's the case, at least it looks like it's in a better position to be used more than OpenGL was.

 

[digitalrelic]

MS attempts to fuck over their own Windows 7 base may backfire on them. Sounds about right.

Man, I'm all for Vulkan but Windows 7 came out seven years ago. There's nothing wrong with MS trying to push end users forward from a seven year old product.

 

[kinggroin]

Vulkan is the best chance to eliminate a primary engineering cause for software platform dependency.

Literally the exact same thing I had in mind.

It's the closest thing to a key in really unlocking the potential for PC gaming development. Windows/Linux/Other


You choose, and no one platform holder stands as ultimate gate keeper

 

[Krejlooc]

There is no indication at all that Vulkan will "take off" at some point in the future. It all looks like a repeat of the OpenGL days.

I'm very much curious to hear your recount of the "OpenGL days" and why things wound up the way they did, because Vulkan is evolving very much unlike OpenGL did, with the external industry factors being radically different as well.

 

[jmga]

No, they did not. DICE co-developed Mantle with AMD. While Vulkan is based on Mantle, DICE seems to have abandoned both. I wonder why is that?

You are just throwing statements without any basis.

Why do you think EA is still a member of the Vulkan working group?

 

[Gemüsepizza]

If that's the case, at least it looks like it's in a better position to be used more than OpenGL was.

Doubt it. The only devs who seem to use Vulkan are devs that have used OpenGL in the past - id software, Valve, croteam, ... And the devs who have used DX in the past seem to keep on using DX.

I'm very much curious to hear your recount of the "OpenGL days" and why things wound up the way they did, because Vulkan is evolving very much unlike OpenGL did, with the external industry factors being radically different as well.

It is exactly evolving like OpenGL did. Please show me the big developers who are switching from DX to Vulkan.

You are just throwing statements without any basis.

Why do you think EA is still a member of the Vulkan working group?

Sigh. Most of these companies have been members of the Khronos group for ages. This doesn't mean anything. At all.

 

[Krejlooc]

Man, I'm all for Vulkan but Windows 7 came out seven years ago. There's nothing wrong with MS trying to push end users forward from a seven year old product.

There is plenty wrong from a development standpoint. By supporting their tech this way, they limit the potential sales pool or increase the amount of development needed to hit the maximum market feasible.

 

[Joezie]

Releasing a game with an OpenGL backend on Windows only doesn't make sense to me id, but yet here we are

That being said this is good to hear Vulkan climbing up.

 

[Abstrusity]

Could also just be API wars. Which group of programmers doesnt have a weekly os, ide or text editor war going.

Well, that's fair. Of course, emacs is the best text editor.

 

[jmga]

Sigh. Most of these companies have been members of the Khronos group for ages. This doesn't mean anything. At all.

They are not just Khronos Group members(even Microsoft is on board), they are Vulkan Working Group members. They develop and take the decisions on the spec.

 

[Crimsonclaw111]

Given how shit DX12 games seem to perform, and how amazingly Doom performs, I don't have much to say against it as a consumer. I like open APIs too.

 

[Krejlooc]

It is exactly evolving like OpenGL did. Please show me the big developers who are switching from DX to Vulkan.

Vulkan is less than 6 months old. It seems to me you don't know the history of Direct X vs OpenGL beyond "DirectX won!"

 

[JaggedSac]

Well, that's fair. Of course, emacs is the best text editor.

I use vi everyday at work. Tis the one true way.

 

[digitalrelic]

There is plenty wrong from a development standpoint. By supporting their tech this way, they limit the potential sales pool or increase the amount of development needed to hit the maximum market feasible.

They literally release Windows 7's successor for free.

 

[Crimsonclaw111]

They literally release Windows 7's successor for free.

As a trojan horse, yeah.

 

[Theanine3D]

Anything that removes dependency on a single OS vendor is a good thing over the longterm. The id dev is right.

 

[Krejlooc]

They literally release Windows 7's successor for free.

And still couldn't become ubiquitous. Which is quite the point.

 

[Atilac]

Doubt it. The only devs who seem to use Vulkan are devs that have used OpenGL in the past - id software, Valve, croteam, ... And the devs who have used DX in the past seem to keep on using DX.



It is exactly evolving like OpenGL did. Please show me the big developers who are switching from DX to Vulkan.

The extent to which you are wrong is staggering. From your ignorance on business decisions (win 7 not being important) to your completely uneducated assertions about tech (Dice created vulkan, Dice will support it for their future games, Durante pointed out vulcan is more advanced than dx12) I never thought I'd come across an API fanboy, especially one with obviously no knowledge of game developement (and the buzzwards you throw around don't count)

Edit: Nice job being condesending to Doom in your initial post, you're arrogant and elitist in addition to being woefully ignorant and stupid.

 

[Joezie]

Well, that's fair. Of course, emacs is the best text editor.

I use vi everyday at work. Tis the one true way.

Ya'll need some ed in yo life.

 

[wazoo]

Windows 10 is the most used OS on Steam now (45%) and the percentage of that user base seems to be climbing pretty quickly (it was 34% just 5 months ago). While it makes sense to develop for Vulkan to support Windows 7 users, a lot of developers may just not care too much about the Windows 7 gaming user base since it's rapidly shrinking.

I would bet, you should correlate W10 adoption with DX12 capable graphic cards too, because W7 users with old cards are meaningless to this conversation, and I think, without proof, that early adopters of new cards will have a tendency to be up to date with their OS.

 

[Krejlooc]

Ya'll need some ed in yo life.

get a modern ide, lol jesus christ

I'll never get the slavish adherence to such ancient text editors

Spoiler

Besides Notepad++ is the best text editor

 

[wazoo]

As a trojan horse, yeah.

Are you sure ? I was thinking, it was a charity action

 

[designgears]

get a modern ide, lol jesus christ

I'll never get the slavish adherence to such ancient text editors

Spoiler

Besides Notepad++ is the best text editor

Spoiler

It's all about sublime text, Notepad++ is ancient and obsolete!

 

[iavi]

Given how shit DX12 games seem to perform, and how amazingly Doom performs, I don't have much to say against it as a consumer. I like open APIs too.

? DX12 had a rough start, but in general when fully implemented with async it's performance gains are pretty absolute, even on Nvidia. Open API > Closed of course, but lets not draw false parallels.

With the latest patch Rise of the Tomb Raider runs much better in DX12 than DX11. Forza Apex is smooth as butter, etc.

Doom is the best example of abstraction vs low level api, though, hands down. Id took their time getting the patch out, but the results speak for themselves

 

[Easy_D]

Vulkan is less than 6 months old. It seems to me you don't know the history of Direct X vs OpenGL beyond "DirectX won!"

There's literally no use discussing this with him. He's the Huelen of API-wars :lol

 

[charsace]

Documentation and support has been way better for DX than it has been for Kronos Group. These two things are huge and KG really needs to catch up here.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

The extent to which you are wrong is staggering. From your ignorance on business decisions (win 7 not being important) to your completely uneducated assertions about tech (Dice created vulkan, Dice will support it for their future games, Durante pointed out vulcan is more advanced than dx12) I never thought I'd come across an API fanboy, especially one with obviously no knowledge of game developement (and the buzzwards you throw around don't count)

Again:

DICE did *not* create Vulkan. This is a fact.

DICE has not said that they will support Vulkan in the future. They have said that they are exploring options. And at this point it seems that they will use DX12 for Battlefield 1.

Also, Vulkan is *not* more advanced than DX12. Development on DX12 is ahead of Vulkan.

How can you deny the facts? Just look at the industry. The only guys who are actively implementing Vulkan into their products are companies which have done so in the past with OpenGL. Most major game devs seem to be focusing on DX12. And if I am supposed to be a fanboy, I wonder why you are the one who needs to insult people like that. I am just stating facts.