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[Dinky Dino]

Literally the exact same thing I had in mind.

It's the closest thing to a key in really unlocking the potential for PC gaming development. Windows/Linux/Other


You choose, and no one platform holder stands as ultimate gate keeper

Vulkan just recently came out a couple months so I'm going to assume most publishers/devs are smart and will do vulkan too. If they really are similar, it shouldn't be much work and vulkan is good insurance against potential scenarios. Plus it gives them access to grant win 7 users that performance boost.

Though it does seem like every major publisher is getting behind dx12. Maybe because it came out earlier? I suppose MS might be also sending reps into their offices and selling dx12 through presentations and streamlined documentation. What that other dev said is also interesting. He said that the bulk of the xbox and pc dx12 code is shared. But I have no idea how true that is. If it is, devs might have more incentive to just go that route.

 

[dracula_x]

...
Sigh. Most of these companies have been members of the Khronos group for ages. This doesn't mean anything. At all.

Sure. And, honestly, it can be similar situation like with many open-source projects – many supporters, but abysmal output.

 

[Durante]

The image posted previously contains Vulkan working group members.
These are companies that specifically signed up for Vulkan, not just ones which are part of Khronos for other reasons.

That list is significantly larger.

 

[Reallink]

Windows 10 is the most used OS on Steam now (45%) and the percentage of that user base seems to be climbing pretty quickly (it was 34% just 5 months ago). While it makes sense to develop for Vulkan to support Windows 7 users, a lot of developers may just not care too much about the Windows 7 gaming user base since it's rapidly shrinking.

10 is going to hit a stone wall if they really remove the free upgrade this month. No one is going to pay $100+ for upgrades that have been free for a year, especially those that have held out this long.

 

[LordRaptor]

DICE did *not* create Vulkan. This is a fact.

Unless you are being highly selective as to your terminology - which in and of itself begs the question why are you being so selective in your terminology - that is not actually an unqualified fact.

 

[kswiston]

10 is going to hit a stone wall if they really remove the free upgrade this month. No one is going to pay $100+ for upgrades that have been free for a year, especially those that have held out this long.

I think that you are downplaying the fact that people buy new computers.

Anyone on Steam who was ever going to upgrade to Win10 already did. It will be replacement machines going forward.

 

[Atilac]

Again:

DICE did *not* create Vulkan. This is a fact.

DICE has not said that they will support Vulkan in the future. They have said that they are exploring options. And at this point it seems that they will use DX12 for Battlefield 1.

Also, Vulkan is *not* more advanced than DX12. Development on DX12 is ahead of Vulkan.

How can you deny the facts? Just look at the industry. The only guys who are actively implementing Vulkan into their products are companies which have done so in the past with OpenGL. Most major game devs seem to be focusing on DX12. And if I am supposed to be a fanboy, I wonder why you are the one who needs to insult people like that. I am just stating facts.

The underlining work in vulkan was made by Dice, that is a fact. Vulkan is more advanced, Durante himself said so. You are pulling statements out of your ass, and masquerading them as truth.

 

[cpp_is_king]

"At least not if you want full perf". Well, not everyone wants full perf. You don't need it for most games. And when you do want full perf, you have a second code path like Axel says, but it's not a second code path of 100% of your engine, it's a second code path of 1% of your engine. Big difference.

 

[Krejlooc]

I think that you are downplaying the fact that people buy new computers.

You haven't been able to buy a new PC with Windows 7 in years now and it still commands almost 40% of the Steam market. People buy computers, but unless there is going to be a rush overnight that completely marginalizes the previous windows segment, you still have a sizable pool of the population you are ignoring if you go with the latest Direct X.

This is the second time someone has made this point that windows 10 adoption is still growing - that doesn't matter. If I'm a developer and I'm looking at the market, I don't care if Windows 10 adoption will become ubiquitous at this rate in 7 years, nor do I care whatever reason the windows 7 portion of the market has rejected the free offer to upgrade. All I care is that they exist and I need to target them.

Hence why using an API that hits the biggest portion of the market, and thus older operating systems, is logical.

 

[Nzyme32]

Aren't both Sony and Nintendo part of the Chronos group, the guys behind Vulkan?

It's Khronos, but yes. Microsoft is a member too though.

Sony even has "Promoter" status, which is the highest tier of membership.

Since V1.0 released, Nintendo and Sony are shown as part of the Vulkan Working Group. Not that that means too much though since it can easily refer to all manner of things they are working on like mobile

For perspective, Sony have been on there since the beginning, Nintendo on the other hand were only added when this V1.0 released, so I'd assume maybe they joined up after the previous presentation with the list - some point between Aug 2015 & Feb 2016

 

[cpp_is_king]

You haven't been able to buy a new PC with Windows 7 in years now and it still commands almost 40% of the Steam market. People buy computers, but unless there is going to be a rush overnight that completely marginalizes the previous windows segment, you still have a sizable pool of the population you are ignoring if you go with the latest Direct X.

This is the second time someone has made this point that windows 10 adoption is still growing - that doesn't matter. If I'm a developer and I'm looking at the market, I don't care if Windows 10 adoption will become ubiquitous at this rate in 7 years, nor do I care whatever reason the windows 7 portion of the market has rejected the free offer to upgrade. All I care is that they exist and I need to target them.

Hence why using an API that hits the biggest portion of the market, and thus older operating systems, is logical.

Switching to a brand new API also means you lose a vast amount of code that can no longer be re-used. Updating to DX12, while there are some breaking changes, it's not a complete re-write of the engine from the ground up. There is a definite cost associated with re-writing the engine from the ground up and not being able to reuse most of your code. Then, combine that with the fact that Windows 10 could be ubiquitous in 7 years. So all the work you do to re-write the engine for Vulkan, then you might need to go and re-write again for DX12, or 13, or whatever down the line. It's a risk. There is no risk associated with DirectX. It has a lot of momentum and is firmly planted in the industry. Higher ups like that. And all the effort they put towards DX12 they can be reasonably certain they won't have to throw it away 5 years from now.

 

[Nzyme32]

DICE has not said that they will support Vulkan in the future. They have said that they are exploring options. And at this point it seems that they will use DX12 for Battlefield 1.

Edit - and very specifically mentioning Vulkan support within Frostbite - https://youtu.be/QF7gENO6CI8?t=3m12s

and there was also this in all the presentations, although it doesn't reference Frostbite specifically but EA

 

[Krejlooc]

Switching to a brand new API also means you lose a vast amount of code that can no longer be re-used. Updating to DX12, while there are some breaking changes, it's not a complete re-write of the engine from the ground up.

This isn't true. The nature of DX12 compared to previous DX revisions is that DX12 is a major overhaul. That's a major reason in the timing of Vulkan - this is a time when, one way or another, you're going to be putting a lot of work into implementing these new APIs.

Obviously the engine work is not being rewritten, because today's large engines are API independent. That doesn't mean implementing DX12 over DX11 is no work at all.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

http://i.imgur.com/Iaeisr0.png[IMG][/QUOTE]

Uhm, this is from July 2015. When Vulkan wasn't even released. It's absolutely possible that this was their plan at that time. But plans change. And we haven't heard anything about Frostbite and Vulkan for quite a time. What we heard is that Battlefield 1 will very likely support DX12. I doubt that we will see full Vulkan support in a DICE game anytime soon.

Edit: He also said before Vulkan release, that they will implement both into Frostbite, then compare them. But he said that does not necessarily mean that they will ship Frostbite games with Vulkan support.

 

[watership]

"At least not if you want full perf". Well, not everyone wants full perf. You don't need it for most games. And when you do want full perf, you have a second code path like Axel says, but it's not a second code path of 100% of your engine, it's a second code path of 1% of your engine. Big difference.

Stop trying to make a black and white issue more nuanced!

 

[Sciz]

Maybe their games would be slighty more complex than "walking into a room and killing everything x 100 times", if they didn't spend so much time on OpenGL/Vulkan.

Is there some reason why you're conflating game designers and engine programmers

 

[Krejlooc]

Stop trying to make a black and white issue more nuanced!

Uh, he didn't make the issue more nuanced, he went from black to white. He literally said "it's not 100% of your code base changing, it's 1%!"

It's neither extreme. It's in the middle, depending on the title.

 

[Nzyme32]

Uhm, this is from July 2015. When Vulkan wasn't even released. It's absolutely possible that this was their plan at that time. But plans change. And we haven't heard anything about Frostbite and Vulkan for quite a time. What we heard is that Battlefield 1 will very likely support DX12. I doubt that we will see full Vulkan support in a DICE game anytime soon.

Edit: He also said before Vulkan release, that they will implement both into Frostbite, then compare them. But he said that does not necessarily mean that they will ship Frostbite games with Vulkan support.

The presentations discussing Frostbite and Vulkan haven't changed up to release. Up to you if you choose to believe them or not. It should be expected for Vulkan support to be later since it is much newer, only releasing in Feb

 

[Bolivar687]

Many of the biggest PC releases throughout 2016 are using DirectX 12. I'd like to hear from some of the developers on those games as to why they're using it instead of Vulkan. It seems strange for id to question it when they're the only AAA developer so far to ship a game with Vulkan, and they coincidentally also happen to be the last big holdout for OpenGL.

 

[watership]

Uh, he didn't make the issue more nuanced, he went from black to white. He literally said "it's not 100% of your code base changing, it's 1%!"

It's neither extreme. It's in the middle, depending on the title.

It's game development. It's completely nuanced. Vulcan will be used in some cases and so will DX12 in others for a number of reasons from money, platform and goals.

 

[Krejlooc]

Many of the biggest PC releases throughout 2016 are using DirectX 12. I'd like to hear from some of the developers on those games as to why they're using it instead of Mantle.

Because Mantle is dead. Everybody interested in Mantle has been waiting for Vulkan, and Vulkan isn't even half a year old.

 

[Nzyme32]

Maybe their games would be slighty more complex than "walking into a room and killing everything x 100 times", if they didn't spend so much time on OpenGL/Vulkan.

Is there some reason why you're conflating game designers and engine programmers

You can tell someone has an agenda when this is someone's logical conclusion to why a game is designed the way it is.

 

[Krejlooc]

It's game development. It's completely nuanced. Vulcan will be used in some cases and so will DX12 in others for a number of reasons from money, platform and goals.

That's not what this discussion is about, and the poster your quoted and called nuanced didn't make that argument to begin with.

 

[Bolivar687]

Because Mantle is dead. Everybody interested in Mantle has been waiting for Vulkan, and Vulkan isn't even half a year old.

Sorry, fixed, meant Vulkan.

 

[LordRaptor]

Sorry, fixed, meant Vulkan.

The answers the same.
What AAA titles have a turnaround of 6 months in the year 2016?

 

[Gemüsepizza]

The answers the same.
What AAA titles have a turnaround of 6 months in the year 2016?

This makes no sense at all.

Somehow id software can release a Vulkan patch for their OpenGL game, but much bigger dev studios with big, dedicated engine teams aren't capable of releasing Vulkan support for their DX12 games? Nah. The only reason is, that they don't care enough about Vulkan, because it is redundant and not worth it.

 

[Krejlooc]

This makes no sense at all.

Somehow id software can release a Vulkan patch for their OpenGL game, but much bigger dev studios with big, dedicated engine teams aren't capable of releasing Vulkan support for their DX12 games? Nah. The only reason is, that they don't care enough about Vulkan, because it is redundant and not worth it.

LOL iD isn't a big studio with a big, dedicated engine team? It should be obvious why iD, who created id tech 6, could work Vulkan support into their brand new, OpenGL backed project so quickly.

 

[LordRaptor]

This makes no sense at all.

Somehow id software can release a Vulkan patch for their OpenGL game, but much bigger dev studios with big, dedicated engine teams aren't capable of releasing Vulkan support for their DX12 games? Nah. The only reason is, that they don't care enough about Vulkan, because it is redundant and not worth it.

What, you mean that huge long list of all those big AAA DX12 games that released within the last 6 months?

It's almost like it's too early to say what support will or will not appear.

 

[Armaros]

This makes no sense at all.

Somehow id software can release a Vulkan patch for their OpenGL game, but much bigger dev studios with big, dedicated engine teams aren't capable of releasing Vulkan support for their DX12 games? Nah. The only reason is, that they don't care enough about Vulkan, because it is redundant and not worth it.

It's wierd for id? One of the last holdouts on using OpenGL would use their experience to switch to Vulkan ahead of other developers?

 

[jwhit28]

I wonder if Vulcan does start gaining traction will we see some kind of "The way it's meant to be played" campaign from Microsoft. Perhaps funding windows store ports of 3rd party titles without buying the console exclusivity window.

It's scary to think how much more powerful Microsoft can be if they get another commanding lead in the console space like 360 had, on top of building a PC library for free and getting people used to Xbox and Windows Store environments. How does Steam compete if 3rd parties get on the "PC for free" wagon with Microsoft?

 

[Gemüsepizza]

My point is that Vulkan's age is not a valid excuse when a DX12 game in 2016 does not have Vulkan support. Especially because it's much easier porting a game from DX12 to Vulkan instead of porting from OpenGL to Vulkan. If a DX12 game in 2016 does not have Vulkan support, it is because of other reasons.

 

[LordRaptor]

I wonder if Vulcan does start gaining traction will we see some kind of "The way it's meant to be played" campaign from Microsoft. Perhaps funding windows store ports of 3rd party titles without buying the console exclusivity window.

Most of the AAA publishers in the PC space have incredibly good reasons never to go anywhere near the Ms only appstore with their titles, regardless how much they are paid to do so, though.
If there's an internal moneyhats budget (and there is) the Xbox division aren't going to push for DX12 moneyhats when they can try and push for UWA temporary moneyhats.

e:

My point is that Vulkan's age is not a valid excuse when a DX12 game in 2016 does not have Vulkan support. Especially because it's much easier porting a game from DX12 to Vulkan instead of porting from OpenGL to Vulkan. If a DX12 game in 2016 does not have Vulkan support, it is because of other reasons.

What, like basically the only DX12 games on the market being published by MS?
I have no idea why they are not supporting Vulkan. It is a complete mystery.

 

[Stanng243]

This makes no sense at all.

Somehow id software can release a Vulkan patch for their OpenGL game, but much bigger dev studios with big, dedicated engine teams aren't capable of releasing Vulkan support for their DX12 games? Nah. The only reason is, that they don't care enough about Vulkan, because it is redundant and not worth it.

My point is that Vulkan's age is not a valid excuse when a DX12 game in 2016 does not have Vulkan support. Especially because it's much easier porting a game from DX12 to Vulkan instead of porting from OpenGL to Vulkan. If a DX12 game in 2016 does not have Vulkan support, it is because of other reasons.

I'm curious, do you have a source for these statements? You seem pretty definitive on them.

 

[EchoChamber]

They are gonna support both anyway, right? I mean if they make a xbox version of the game the can make a vulkan version for w7 Mac and Linux and the dx12 for win 10

 

[Gemüsepizza]

What, like basically the only DX12 games on the market being published by MS?
I have no idea why they are not supporting Vulkan. It is a complete mystery.

I am talking about upcoming games which will be released in 2016. Time is not an excuse. If several DX12 titles (for example Deus Ex, Civilization or Battlefield) will be released without Vulkan support, then there is only one reason why: Because DX12 is the better choice for game development.

 

[jwhit28]

I am talking about upcoming games which will be released in 2016. Time is not an excuse. If several DX12 titles (for example Deus Ex, Civilization or Battlefield) will be released without Vulkan support, there is only one reason why: Because DX12 is the better choice for game development.

Is Civ VI not supporting Vulcan? That's weird considering Civ BE was a showcase title for Mantle.

 

[LordRaptor]

I am talking about upcoming games which will be released in 2016. Time is not an excuse. If several DX12 titles (for example Deus Ex, Civilization or Battlefield) will be released without Vulkan support, then there is only one reason why: Because DX12 is the better choice for game development.

I can - literally - count on the fingers of one hand non-Ms published titles coming out this year that support DirectX.
I mean, if you think that signifies overwhelming support for a major point revision update to the DirectX API, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[tiredheadcrab]

It looks like Vulkan will get support on platform or projects where it makes sense and DX12 the same. Example a game running on Linux or Mac OS X will probably be Vulkan based. Also Vulkan will probably dominat mobile games. So it's market share will be higher in some way you look at it.

A game running on Windows 10 and Xbox will use DX12. Probably best that way.

I think Sony has their own API for PlayStation. I guess they could add Vulkan support to their console but it's an open API so it will be on their terms.

Nintendo I have no idea and I don't think the rest of the industry cares outside of their own developers.

 

[emag]

They are gonna support both anyway, right? I mean if they make a xbox version of the game the can make a vulkan version for w7 Mac and Linux and the dx12 for win 10

DX12 for Windows (10).
Metal for Mac.
Vulkan for Linux (and old Windows).

It's scary to think how much more powerful Microsoft can be if they get another commanding lead in the console space like 360 had, on top of building a PC library for free and getting people used to Xbox and Windows Store environments. How does Steam compete if 3rd parties get on the "PC for free" wagon with Microsoft?

I doubt GabeN is losing much sleep over XB1 gamers who also have gaming PCs and want to own the same games on both. That's the tiny niche that's served by "PC for free".

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Is Civ VI not supporting Vulcan? That's weird considering Civ BE was a showcase title for Mantle.

Devs said at several occasions that they plan to add DX12 support, but so far not a single word about Vulkan support afaik.

 

[AlStrong]

Uhm, this is from July 2015. When Vulkan wasn't even released. It's absolutely possible that this was their plan at that time. But plans change. And we haven't heard anything about Frostbite and Vulkan for quite a time.

He could have been referring to mobile platforms too.

 

[Xyphie]

It's probably likely that W7 users are on pre-Kepler/GCN GPUs which won't support Vulkan anyway, so you'd have to build a DX9 or 11/OpenGL codebase regardless.

 

[Felix Lighter]

There is no reason to disable vulkan on Windows 10.

 

[Shifty]

Wait, the Vulkan patch is out?

And here I was about to shitpost something the lines of 'walk the walk before you talk the talk'. Guess I'll go play doom at 155FPS instead.

 

[sono]

op quoted "because DirectX 12 on Windows and on Xbox is very different, necessitating two separate code paths anyway."

ok that is a surprise - sounds threadworthy too !

 

[petran79]

DX12 for Windows (10).
Metal for Mac.
Vulkan for Linux (and old Windows).

OpenGL 4.5 is also Windows XP compatible

 

[Samurai G0SU]

Do you need to install Vulkan in order to use it like how you have to install DirectX? - serious question, i game on my pc rarely and im concerned if i have to do some crazy stuff in order to use vulkan.

Also, does anyone know what it costs to run Vulkan vs DirectX for a company? Like for example, if they use DX12, it costs X and the purposed reach is X with incentive C Y Z where as Vulkan is lower in cost and reach but has only 1 less incentive.

 

[tuxfool]

It's probably likely that W7 users are on pre-Kepler/GCN GPUs which won't support Vulkan anyway, so you'd have to build a DX9 or 11/OpenGL codebase regardless.

Vulkan supports Fermi and all GCN gpus.

 

[gundalf]

Well let's face it, Khronus is just a consortium and can only define the framework and give recommendations on Vulkan while Microsoft can offer those sweet devtools and premium support for DX12. Making Graphic-Engines is not trivial, so you choose what causes the least headache.

 

[Nirolak]

Edit - and very specifically mentioning Vulkan support within Frostbite - https://youtu.be/QF7gENO6CI8?t=3m12s

and there was also this in all the presentations, although it doesn't reference Frostbite specifically but EA

They're using Vulkan for Android, no?