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[XenodudeX]

Some people identify as neither, or both. Or fluid.



Here everybody, I'll help you out!

Maybe those people shouldn't look towards a pokemon game to accommodate them? I don't know what to tell you.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

Yeah, a bit too PC for my tastes. Nintendo will also possibly face backlash from vocal conservative groups if they do integrate gay/trans/genderfluid choices.

10 years ago, we'd say it would be impossible for children's media to address LGBT issues, and yet today stuff like Steven Universe exists.

Social norms are changed by people questioning them when no one else will.

Edit: Can I just say how stupid I think using the term PC is in this context? Being PC would be to follow the status quo, not offend the majority and pretend gender fluidity doesn't exist.

 

[-Mutsukki-]

No, you should just let the player customize their character in the manner they would like, not limiting clothing options to a specific gender, and have multiple body types, facial attributes, skin tones, hair colors, etc. for them to mix and match how they please. Pokemon aren't human, nor are they forced to conform to the strict gender roles that society requires conformity to. Also most pokemon are identical regardless of gender. Bringing the pokemon creatures to the discussion is a little off-topic though, since they aren't facsimiles of the player in the world.

I don't think this has anything to do with the problem in a social perspective... you just want a character creation tool. Gamefreak denying this isn't some sort of outdated (socially at least) perspective, it's just that they probably can't do it or don't want to do it (and like I said, it'd feel super weird)

Yes, most people are forming their own identity by even younger than 7 or 9. Honestly GAF is not the best place to find information about gender identity, if you are actually interested in this topic do some research about it. Read some experiences from people who struggled with their gender identity as children, there are many of them. Being more inclusive may seem trivial to you, but to the people it matters to it is not trivial at all.

I said just rewording it is trivial. But I guess you're right because I do agree with other posters that it's talking about actual biological gender and 2 options do cover that.

 

[Lord of Ostia]

I meant like actual kids, like 7 to 9 year olds or so. I mean if they feel like that I can't invalidate them, but I'll still stand that it's an innocent question that shouldn't be read into more than it is. What would "being more inclusive" even entail? Listing more genders? Listing... no genders? Men and women still have different features, I'd think that would make matters even worse. If it's something like being able to use other gender's clothes like Animal Crossing though I can get behind that yeah.

Edit: Character creator though... I dunno. Wouldn't feel very Pokemon to me I think...

If it's to just reword the question altogether I think that's super trivial honestly

Yes, most people are forming their own identity by even younger than 7 or 9. Honestly GAF is not the best place to find information about gender identity, if you are actually interested in this topic do some research about it. Read some experiences from people who struggled with their gender identity as children, there are many of them. Being more inclusive may seem trivial to you, but to the people it matters to it is not trivial at all.

 

[toddhunter]

If Trump wins offering other choices might end up being illegal in America so they may need to play it safe for a while.

I wish this was satire.

 

[Dancing Queen]

I don't get OP's question.

If you don't identify as male or female, what are you going to identify with? Even transgenders or queers identify with something.

Legit question.

 

[Captain Europe]

I really don't think it crossed their minds, especially since TPC's target audience are children which usually identify as one or the other.

Mostly because they are taught that's all there is. But gender fluid adults didn't become gender fluid all of sudden, they were always that way they just realised at a later age. As a gay guy I also thought I was straight as a kid and supposed to marry a girl.

Sadly, TPC is slow with everything, the game doesn't even have proper texture filtering like every other 3DS game. They're gonna baby-step through everything.

 

[Lil'DigiOp]

No, you should just let the player customize their character in the manner they would like, not limiting clothing options to a specific gender, and have multiple body types, facial attributes, skin tones, hair colors, etc. for them to mix and match how they please. Pokemon aren't human, nor are they forced to conform to the strict gender roles that society requires conformity to. Also most pokemon are identical regardless of gender. Bringing the pokemon creatures to the discussion is a little off-topic though, since they aren't facsimiles of the player in the world.

I agree to complete overhaul of customization. That seems like a great solution. Despite being aware of social structure and gender roles, and how they affect people, I don't believe boy or girl are outdated. I think if this was a problem, we would have heard something by now but that's why GAF exists to have discussions like so.

I agree, change the customization entirely. Nobody loses with that.

 

[ScientificPizza]

Maybe those people shouldn't look towards a pokemon game to accommodate them? I don't know what to tell you.

c'mon buddy. people shouldn't be relegated to specific kinds of media due to how they identify. you can for sure be better than that

we can all be better than that

 

[GinoFelino]

Maybe those people shouldn't look towards a pokemon game to accommodate them? I don't know what to tell you.

Because they should... have different tastes in entertainment if they want to feel acknowledged? What are you even saying?

 

[Salty Rice]

Some people identify as neither, or both. Or fluid.



Here everybody, I'll help you out!

I think even they can pick a choice by the looks of the character.

Why are some acting like we see the genitalia of the characters. You pick them for the looks.

 

[Lord of Ostia]

I'm all for being inclusive, but no. It's just a way for you to decide how your avatar looks, it's not some sort of deep question about your identity, you can always just role-play your character as being genderfluid/trans.

Anyway, whether you like it or not, purely from a biological standpoint, everyone is still "assigned" a binary gender at birth. No one gets born trans or genderfluid, you get born as a male or a female. It's just how nature works, or is nature outdated as well?


I'm pretty sure that no child in the world thinks this way. Questions about gender and identity usually emerge later in a person's development.

Gender and sexual identity are not the same. Sexual preferences often don't surface until puberty, but gender identity is a separate issue. Desperado linked a helpful resource above you if you want to understand more about gender identity.

 

[Wanchan]

Simple answer : It's an international game and there are still countries where it's taboo to talk about LGBT and where male and female are the only 2 existing genders.

 

[cw_sasuke]

No, you should just let the player customize their character in the manner they would like, not limiting clothing options to a specific gender, and have multiple body types, facial attributes, skin tones, hair colors, etc. for them to mix and match how they please. Pokemon aren't human, nor are they forced to conform to the strict gender roles that society requires conformity to. Also most pokemon are identical regardless of gender. Bringing the pokemon creatures to the discussion is a little off-topic though, since they aren't facsimiles of the player in the world.

...ok i dont really get this. I could somehow follow your earlier point but it seems any kind of Gender classification is an issue (?) - if i read it wrong im sorry obv. this isnt a topic i have spend a lot of time with in the past.

 

[Trace]

Simple answer : It's an international game and there are still countries where it's taboo to talk about LGBT and where male and female are the only 2 existing genders.

Simpler answer: They can't be assed to put in a proper character creator.

 

[Benzychenz]

It's really just some flavour text, rather than taking you to a character creation screen where you pick male or female, it's the professor asking you in-universe.
I mean, yeah, they could do something similar to Pokemon Go and ask "what's your style" or something, but that doesn't really change anything, you're still picking the same choices.

Just seems like a strange thing to single out to me.

 

[vern]

Could not the question be re worded while leaving the game design intact, is what I was asking. Like if is just showed the two character sprites and asked which you would like to play as.

Yea sure. But you also have to understand they don't literally mean "you" when they say you.

What if an NPC asked "you" to go catch a squirtle? Do you literally think he's talking to you and you'll go outside and try to catch one? It's a character in a game. It's not literally you.

But I agree more options are better too. Inclusivity for all would be amazing. I just don't think the question is worded wrong, but I also don't care if they change it.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Simple answer : It's an international game and there are still countries where it's taboo to talk about LGBT and where male and female are the only 2 existing genders.

Also falls into the whole "don't expect Game Freak to do extra work" thing.

 

[Salty Rice]

Simpler answer: They can't be assed to put in a proper character creator.

I doubt there would be more than male and female option either.

 

[dangeraaron10]

To be honest, this just makes it simple for game development. You're given some textures and animations and a if then selection to decide which set of pixels you want to catch Pokemon with. I don't want to sound insensitive here, but ...

Boy and Girl is not outdated. For the overwhelming majority of Pokemon customers it's not outdated. It's a choice they don't really think about and either pick the male or female avatar. These games are also made in Japan and this issue is seen in a different light over there. Not to mention marketed towards young children, despite the large number of nostalgic adults that buy all the games (myself included).

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

There are more than 2 genders, whether you personally believe it or not.

There are only two (except for in very rare cases) sexes though, and isn't that really what the professor is asking? The game doesn't care whether your character likes boys or girls, or is actually a transvestite. It's just asking you which physical sex you want your character to appear as.

Gender slider is simple, unobtrusive and wouldn't be noticed by the kind of people who would raise a stink about it

It would complicate the very simple introduction sequence considerably, and require many, many more 3D models.

 

[cw_sasuke]

Simpler answer: They can't be assed to put in a proper character creator.

They are expanding the editor with every release - as said before its a process.

 

[Wiseblade]

I could imagine people being uncomfortable because the question is is directed at the player, but ultimately it's the same as the binary toggle in every other character creator. Ideally, every character creator would have the capacity for people to suitably recreate themselves (or at least, the idealised vision of themselves) in each game.

I don't think Pokémon's character options are particularly problematic despite only giving people different versions of Japanese/white kid for the better part of 20 years. I always took more issue with creators claiming to be comprehensive but not having the capacity to make good looking black people.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I'm right there with you. Maybe I'm getting old, but I really don't see the issue. Choose whichever one you feel closest to, there are only two physical genders, after all. It's not like it defines you as a person.

I have no idea what cis people are, but I'm not uncomfortable with it.

I'm just saying that there are two physical genders, and the game asks you to pick one of them. That doesn't have to have anything to do with whatever gender you identify as.

There is no (common) physical third gender, no matter how many there are psychologically speaking. It's just asking you whether your character should look like someone born with an X and a Y, or two Y's.

You may wish to do some reserach into gender before you continue.

 

[Platy]

I meant like actual kids, like 7 to 9 year olds or so. I mean if they feel like that I can't invalidate them, but I'll still stand that it's an innocent question that shouldn't be read into more than it is. What would "being more inclusive" even entail? Listing more genders? Listing... no genders? Men and women still have different features, I'd think that would make matters even worse. If it's something like being able to use other gender's clothes like Animal Crossing though I can get behind that yeah.

Edit: Character creator though... I dunno. Wouldn't feel very Pokemon to me I think...

If it's to just reword the question altogether I think that's super trivial honestly

As mentioned before, "What is your style" from Pokemon GO and showing the models is bigger jump in the right direction than I ever expected to see in a pokemon game

 

[Neoleo2143]

Yea sure. But you also have to understand they don't literally mean "you" when they say you.

What if an NPC asked "you" to go catch a squirtle? Do you literally think he's talking to you and you'll go outside and try to catch one? It's a character in a game. It's not literally you.

But I agree more options are better too. Inclusivity for all would be amazing. I just don't think the question is worded wrong, but I also don't care if they change it.

There is an argument to be said for playable characters acting as Avatars so in a certain light NPCs actually are talking to "You".

 

[Captain Europe]

Simpler answer: They can't be assed to put in a proper character creator.

Pretty much, I expect SM to have a little bit more than XY, but it's still going to be bare bones compared to other character creators.

Besides, Fire Emblem is international as well, and that has LGB characters.

 

[GhostTrick]

I don't think the game is asking you for your gender, more like your biological sex.

As for being outdated, I dont think so. Remember that these games are also targetting really young people, who often barely knows how to read.

It may not have been the case for you but I remember my first experience with Pokemon Red to be a bit complicated, mainly because it was the year I was learning how to read. Even then, there are words I wouldn't understand.

 

[Lord of Ostia]

...ok i dont really get this. I could somehow follow your earlier point but it seems any kind of Gender classification is an issue (?) - if i read it wrong im sorry obv. this isnt a topic i have spend a lot of time with in the past.

Some people don't identify as male or female. All I'm suggesting is that the best way to handle this sort of self-insert character is to allow the player to design the character themselves without gender restrictions.

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

You may wish to do some reserach into gender before you continue.

Can't find anything that isn't about what people identify as, but hey, I have an open mind. Throw me a link and I'll read it. If it's good, I'll probably change my mind.

 

[Desperado]

Maybe those people shouldn't look towards a pokemon game to accommodate them? I don't know what to tell you.

Pokemon exists in the world. It is one aspect of reality that reflects society and culture, and while yes, it's only ONE, what negative impact is made by adjusting any one thing to be more inclusive? Furthermore, things don't happen in a vacuum, and one change can have effects beyond the original scope of the situation.

Things add up, and the normalization (at all levels of society) of underrepresented and marginalized groups can have a huge effect on the well-being of said groups. Why shouldn't we be examining this in as many ways as we can? Why shouldn't a game marketed toward children who are going through a crucial period of identity-formation and acclimation to social systems contribute to acceptance of more of those children?

 

[Neiteio]

It's not any more outdated than the countless other things in life that ask the same thing.

In the event you're a biological male who identifies as a woman, or vice-versa, you can always pick the option that reflects your identification.

Me personally, I'm cisgender but I like picking the opposite gender. Videogames are an opportunity to be someone else.

 

[Neoleo2143]

Pretty much, I expect SM to have a little bit more than XY, but it's still going to be bare bones compared to other character creators.

Besides, Fire Emblem is international as well, and that has LGB characters.

Fire Emblem has Bi characters that reached beyond subtext. The "L" and "G" parts have yet to come up.

 

[Camarasketch]

There are only 2 main character models in the game. BOY and GIRL. Which one will you chose to play with? Is THAT easy.

Seems like everything is offensive nowadays...

 

[MotionBlue]

t's also not about being offensive to people, it's about being inclusive to people. Children are told from a very young age they must conform to a strict gender binary, even when that doesn't describe their own sense of self. Allowing for more varied customization options helps them embrace their own identity. They are probably used to having to pick between the standard gender binary, sure. But wouldn't it be nice if they could represent their own identity, the way they actually wanted to?

As someone who works professionally with child care, this is not true. Kids will pick and play with whatever they damn will want. Certain toys are targeted towards genders because they are predisposed to those. Studies have shown this. Yes, their are outliers. Yes, that is okay. No, its not a societal thing(Although Western society probably magnifies it).

I also don't feel like binary gender is outdated, because it isn't. Biological sex is binary, barring rare chromosomal abnormalities. Given that Pokemon is both aimed at children, and that the character models are incredibly benign. They look very similar, thanks to the anime style. Transgender people will simply pick they gender they identify with.

The only thing they should fix, assuming they haven't, is clothing/accessory limits. Since the game isn't out yet, I'm not going to worry about that.

I don't believe this is an issue. It's Pokémon.

Also, yeah, its fuckin' Pokemon.

 

[Piichan]

Pokemon is a role-playing game. In this particular game, you get to role-play as a boy or girl. More customization would be nice, but If you do not like the options available, there are other RPGs with more options.

I'm not sure if we should force TPC to change this. Having a choice between male and female is already pretty nice, when you consider that many games do not offer this choice.

 

[-Mutsukki-]

It would complicate the very simple introduction sequence considerably, and require many, many more 3D models.

This 100000x. Games are meant to be simple and accessible. A robust character creation tool is not accessible. Kids would definitely get super bored right at the beginning and you don't want that.

As mentioned before, "What is your style" from Pokemon GO and showing the models is bigger jump in the right direction than I ever expected to see in a pokemon game

And as I mentioned before I feel like that rewording doesn't actually mean anything. You're still doing the same thing, which is choosing between a boy and a girl, so I feel like it's a trivial issue.

You may wish to do some reserach into gender before you continue.

I feel like posts like this would be so much more meaningful if we could actually get to know what kind of research you're basing these accusations on

 

[oni-link]

I think it would be interesting to ask people do they select a character (when given the choice) they identify with, who looks and sounds as close to they do as possible, or do they select a character they think would be fun to play

I'm a guy and recently I played Saints Row 3 and 4, and Borderlands 2 and TPS, all as a female characters. I didn't pick them because they look like me or have anything in common with me, I just decided that's who I wanted to play as when the game asked me

I might even play a Pokémon game as the female character, and if I didn't it wouldn't be because "hey that guy is like me, I'm a guy and I identify with that"

I assume a lot of people do select a character based on who they are and what they identify with, and I wouldn't be opposed to adding in extra options to any games (did Demon's Souls have a gender slider or I am imagining that?)

I suppose my question is: How important is it to you that you identify with your avatar?

If a game asked me my gender and then provided me with a text box I'd be fine with that, and I think that gets around the issue the OP is raising. It could then ask you to select an avatar once you've typed in your gender

 

[Platy]

Simpler answer: They can't be assed to put in a proper character creator.

What they can do is put the exact same 2 models and ask "who would you rather be", "how do you want to look" or other more inclusive questions which regonize their limitations

 

[CloudWolf]

Gender and sexual identity are not the same. Sexual preferences often don't surface until puberty, but gender identity is a separate issue. Desperado linked a helpful resource above you if you want to understand more about gender identity.

I know about gender identity, but my original point still stands. Generally, kids do not think about this (not teenagers mind you, actual pre-high school kids, aka the main demographic for Pokémon). I've yet to hear a single kid questioning his identity as a boy or a girl.

 

[Neiteio]

I don't think the game is asking you for your gender, more like your biological sex.

This is a good point. If you look at it as the game simply asking your biological sex, there's nothing to stop anyone from saying their character identifies as the opposite gender.

 

[perfectchaos007]

There are more than 2 genders, whether you personally believe it or not.

but there are only 2 sexes (XX, XY) Some scientists may argue Klinefelter syndrome (XXY) is a separate sex but the Y chromosome gives those with the syndrome mostly male characteristics.

I do agree that people can identify with genders that don't align with their sex chromosomes.

 

[cw_sasuke]

Some people don't identify as male or female. All I'm suggesting is that the best way to handle this sort of self-insert character is to allow the player to design the character themselves without gender restrictions.

I get that - just dont understand what the issue is with Pokemon themselves having a Gender as part of the breed mechanics of the game.

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

As someone who works professionally with child care, this is not true. Kids will pick and play with whatever they damn will want. Certain toys are targeted towards genders because they are predisposed to those. Studies have shown this. Yes, their are outliers. Yes, that is okay. No, its not a societal thing(Although Western society probably magnifies it).

I also don't feel like binary gender is outdated, because it isn't. Biological sex is binary, barring rare chromosomal abnormalities. Given that Pokemon is both aimed at children, and that the character models are incredibly benign. They look very similar, thanks to the anime style. Transgender people will simply pick they gender they identify with.

The only thing they should fix, assuming they haven't, is clothing/accessory limits. Since the game isn't out yet, I'm not going to worry about that.



Also, yeah, its fuckin' Pokemon.

This. You express my thoughts way better than I did.

 

[Platy]

And as I mentioned before I feel like that rewording doesn't actually mean anything. You're still doing the same thing, which is choosing between a boy and a girl, so I feel like it's a trivial issue.

Are you choosing between a boy and a girl even if does not show below "boy" or "girl" ?
Or are you basing the nomenclature of boy and girl based on normative ideas of how a boy and a girl look ?

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I don't think the game is asking you for your gender, more like your biological sex.

That seems like it'd be a weird question to ask. And does pokemon not reference the PC by any pronouns throughout the game? Honestly asking because it's been over a decade since I've touched pokemon and can't recall if it used to, or whether or not the new ones do.

I feel like posts like this would be so much more meaningful if we could actually get to know what kind of research you're basing these accusations on

The research that the person I quoted keeps using 'gender' where they mean 'sex'?

 

[Coffee Dog]

I don't think the seven year olds booting up pokemon will want to dick around in a complex character creator that exists to make non gender binary characters.

The best option would be to provide some preset boy and girl characters and give an option to jump into the character creator if none of the presets fit you.

 

[Captain Europe]

Fire Emblem has Bi characters that reached beyond subtext. The "L" and "G" parts have yet to come up.

Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't there one character that's exclusively gay, and one character that's exclusively lesbian? I recall that being the case.

Edit: In the latest Fire Emblem that is.

 

[Desperado]

Yes, most people are forming their own identity by even younger than 7 or 9. Honestly GAF is not the best place to find information about gender identity, if you are actually interested in this topic do some research about it. Read some experiences from people who struggled with their gender identity as children, there are many of them. Being more inclusive may seem trivial to you, but to the people it matters to it is not trivial at all.

Well said.

I know about gender identity, but my original point still stands. Generally, kids do not think about this (not teenagers mind you, actual pre-high school kids, aka the main demographic for Pokémon). I've year to hear a single kid questioning his identity as a boy or a girl.

Do a cursory search on the internet for gender identity and children and you'll find that there's more to this issue than you realize.

 

[-Mutsukki-]

Are you choosing between a boy and a girl even if does not show below "boy" or "girl" ?
Or are you basing the nomenclature of boy and girl based on normative ideas of how a boy and a girl look ?

Yes you are. I'm sorry if you don't believe that boys and girls have anatomical differences but I can't do anything about that.